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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: vinceherman on March 02, 2020, 10:11:34 PM
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I took my SR/F out for an errand this weekend and got much less range that I expected.
Ambient temp was 45 degrees.
The evening before I rode the bike was at 38%. I set the charge limit to 80% and it did charge up to that limit overnight.
My ride was to be 33 miles each way. About 25 miles turnpike and interstate, with the rest city.
I rode slow, below the speed limit. The limit on the turnpike is 70mph. I did 2 miles at 65mph and the reported range dropped quickly. I slowed down to 58 for the next 9 miles on the turnpike.
16 miles on the interstate at 55mph, then 30's and 20's the rest of the way on city streets.
33 miles took me from 80% SoC to 17%.
This is close to half the range I was expecting.
Rather than ride back the same route, I rode to my dad's house (12 miles away) which took me down to 4% and plugged in. I let it get up to 28% and rode the remaining 22 miles home, getting home with 2% left.
Is 45 degrees cold enough to see this kind of range reduction? I thought that the drop off point was colder than that.
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My commute is 35miles each way on a mix of 30/40/60/70 MPH limit roads and temperature is typically 5 to 7 degrees C in UK.
I charge overnight to 90% and return with ~17%.
So I'm getting about 1% battery usage per mile.
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I can only speak to my experience, and I've felt range reduced at any temp below 50F. not a whole lot, but it does start to drop quick. Pull the logs and lets have a look at that whole ride.
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I ride in 100+ degrees in summer and down to freezing winter time at speeds around 35-45 mph. I get my best range of 140+ miles when it's over 100 degrees. At temps around 50-60 degrees, my range drops to about 120 miles. At temps 40 and below, my range drops to about 100 miles.
To me, thats a big negative for electric vehicles.
I have a 2017 dsr zf13.
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So I'm getting about 1% battery usage per mile.
That fits my warm weather experience. But my 45 degree ride saw 33 miles consume 63% SoC.
And I was riding slower than my typical commute.
And by your experience, 45 is not a temp where we would expect a massive drop in range.
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Pull the logs and lets have a look at that whole ride.
I should be able to when I get home tonight.
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I ride in 100+ degrees in summer and down to freezing winter time at speeds around 35-45 mph. I get my best range of 140+ miles when it's over 100 degrees. At temps around 50-60 degrees, my range drops to about 120 miles. At temps 40 and below, my range drops to about 100 miles.
To me, thats a big negative for electric vehicles.
I have a 2017 dsr zf13.
So, some drop in range, but not half like I got. :-/
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I find that I get the most drop in range when trying to go freeway speed in below 50F weather while at a low state of charge. If I don't go below 50% charge while on the freeway section, I don't see the drop.
You guys have bigger batteries so you should be able to avoid that conundrum more easily.
-Crissa
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Wind (and maybe rain) is also having a greater impact than I expected. That and higher speeds and cold weather are the most noticeable.
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Wind and rain things have the same exact impact to ICE vehicles, but they don't see it so acutely because they're already so wasteful. Cold less so, since most of their waste is heat, but they're still less efficient in the cold.
My bike can hold the equivalent of 1/4 gallon of gasoline, while my spouse's bike hold 3 gallons... Twelve times more. If my bike had that much energy, it'd go almost a thousand miles!
So always keep that in perspective.
-Crissa
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I guess I should do some experimentation at different temperatures and see.
I WILL have that opportunity next week when I go down to Bike Week with a bunch of other Zero riders. High 70's anyone?
Oh, for those interested, there are probably still beds at the AriBnB house available. Go look at the Events on the FaceBook ZMOG page.
Edit: the 10 day forecast has many of the days I will be there as 68°55°
Bummer. ONLY 68 degrees! ::)
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Range and performance starts dropping noticeably under 60* on my FXS. 45* is cold enough that range and performance are significantly impacted.
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Wind and rain things have the same exact impact to ICE vehicles, but they don't see it so acutely because they're already so wasteful.
Very true. I keep trying to explain to people that all vehicles are LESS aerodynamically efficient on the freeway, including their daily driver. The reason they get better mileage on the freeway is because their drivetrains become even more inefficient around town.
A 50% drop at 45 F does seem like a big drop. But one of the things we forget is that air gets denser as it gets colder. Any pilot will tell you that it's much harder to get a plane off the ground at 90 degrees than it is at 50 -- the "density altitude" can change as much as several thousand feet just based on temperature changes. And all that extra air density just increases drag. Pilots love a nice low density altitude, but us EV drivers love as much density altitude as we can get!
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Pilots love a nice low density altitude, but us EV drivers love as much density altitude as we can get!
I think your words got saladed.
You meant: Pilots love a high density atmosphere, we like a low density atmosphere. Right? I mean, pilots don't really like low altitude since it has this big hard thing that keeps trying to grab them called 'the ground' with its 'gravity'. ^-^
-Crissa
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I think your words got saladed.
Nope, you missed my point entirely. Pilots love a low density altitude because it means high lift. They can take off (and land) easier, so they can carry more payload and/or fuel or use a shorter runway.
Us EV pilots just want thin air so we have less drag. Higher actual altitude, or just a higher density altitude.
Or perhaps you misunderstand the term "density altitude". A low "density altitude" means high-density air. It's the equivalent altitude of the air density being experienced, at standard temperature and barometric pressure. So if the temperature drops below normal, the air density goes up, and it's as if the airport was at a lower altitude than it's actually at --lower "density altitude". More drag, but more importantly for a pilot, more lift.
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Nope, you missed my point entirely. Pilots love a low density altitude because it means high lift.
No, I'm pretty sure that's not what low density means.
Low density means low lift. (It also means low resistance, which is great for level flight).
Low altitude usually (but because of weather does not always, which when it doesn't, it's bad, GIR) means high density. Density altitude is the property that the density of the atmosphere is by how much is above you pressing down. Low density and low altitude are literally opposites.
Density altitude is a measurement. You should never say 'low density altitude' because it comes out as word salad. It's funny but needlessly confusing because of word order.
*sigh*
-Crissa
PS, I went to Embry Riddle Aeronautical University.
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I don't care where you went to school, you obviously didn't learn what a "density altitude" is.
We're saying the same thing. You just need to look up the phrase "density altitude".
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> I took my SR/F out for an errand this weekend and got much less range that I expected...
Check out "Zero Below Zero". It's a book, and a blog, from the good people at Aerostich.
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Lol, someone may have gone to embry riddle but they clearly haven't read much pilot literature or talked with many pilots because "high(er) density altitude" and "low(er) density altitude" are commonly used, and correct, phrases. What a petty argument, since everyone gets the main point that other things equal, less air pressure = low drag = more EV range.
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This is why you don't hire pilots or engineers to write things. Highly educated, but very rude when taken out of their specific language.
I explained the proper definition of density altitude and why you shouldn't mix phrasings together.
-Crissa
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Enough. Chill out and go to your neutral corners. Thread will be locked.
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I ride in 100+ degrees in summer and down to freezing winter time at speeds around 35-45 mph. I get my best range of 140+ miles when it's over 100 degrees. At temps around 50-60 degrees, my range drops to about 120 miles. At temps 40 and below, my range drops to about 100 miles.
To me, thats a big negative for electric vehicles.
I have a 2017 dsr zf13.
So, some drop in range, but not half like I got. :-/
Freeway speeds already cut your range in half compared to city driving so in cold weather it will be even worse.
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https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/performance/vx-vy-altitude-and-where-they-meet/
Why argue when the facts are trivial to Google.
Cas :)
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Or even more on point:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_altitude
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Density altitude is a measurement. You should never say 'low density altitude' because it comes out as word salad. It's funny but needlessly confusing because of word order.
Weird. It's like I already said that. Notice in the wikipedia article it uses the phrasing 'increase/decrease in'.
What do they think they're arguing?
-Crissa
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Pull the logs and lets have a look at that whole ride.
I did pull the logs.
Is there an interpreter for the SR/F logs?
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Soooo, anyone want to talk about temperature impact on range?
I ride a Zero FXS 7.2 and can make a 44 mile commute when the temperature is below freezing. All but 3 miles is at freeway speeds 55-65 mph. Only once did I not make it. It was 22 degrees and when I was about 2/3s of the way there with over 50% SOC I started going a little faster. At about 40%, SOC started dropping faster. Even though I slowed down as much as I could 35-40 mph, SOC dropped as much as 5% per mile. At least with my bike, I think the lower half of SOC is less than the upper half SOC. In the summertime, it's no problem to make the whole trip above the speed limit as long as I'm not going WOT for extended periods of time.
Sorry, I don't believe that there is an SRF parser. See https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9684.msg85854#msg85854 . That was a couple of months ago and I don't really track the SRF threads, but I don't believe it has changed. Do you have a cooperative dealer you can send the logs to? I doubt anyone will give you the parsed results, but they may be able to give some summary information. I would think that the drop in range that significant would be considered unusual enough to justify them looking into it and responding. At least you'd get something documented that you had brought up the concern early on in ownership, so that if the issue comes back with a vengeance next winter, they should investigate a little more thoroughly.
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I have encountered this where the lower half of SOC will wear away much more quickly at 40mph and above. I have gotten 10% per mile at 70mph with the weather being 40-50F.
-Crissa
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I ride all year round in the Netherlands and on my daily commute it fluctuates about 10%, with temps between -5 and +23 average. What really makes it fluctuate is the wind speed and direction, and how annoying the speed limits are that particular day ;)
I have done some 5C/41F test runs, and I will conduct the same runs in the summer for comparison. Please hold 4 months ;)
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I visited my daughter on Wednesday, riding my usual route at my usual speed. However the temperature was 65 degrees F that morning, instead of the 45 degrees F the last time I took that trip. I arrived at her home, 37 miles away (about 1/3 freeway speeds), with the SOC showing 72%. Making the same trip at 45 degrees showed an SOC of 67% when I arrived that day. It sure seems like cold temperatures do make an impact - at least on the SOC calculation.
However, I certainly will agree that riding into the wind at high speed can really suck the electrons right out of your battery pack.
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2020-Zero-Owners-Manual-SRF
Section 7.6
"Cold weather operation of the motorcycle has no permanent
impact on its power pack/cells; however, the rider may see a
reduction in range due to the effect cold temperature has on the
amount of energy the pack/cells can release. The colder the
weather, the greater the effect; so that, as compared to
operation in 80°F (27°C) ambient, at 30°F (-1°C) ambient, the
rider could experience a temporary reduction in range of up to
30%."
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My 13.0 with 9000 miles needs a monolith, it went from 30% left when I got home from my loop to now I have had to decrease my return slab from 70 mph to 65 mph and now the minimum 60 mph just to make it home with between 5% and 0%. Going by the SoC at the end of my ride, cold weather has permanently hurt the battery life as the final SoC has only kept getting worse.
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My 13.0 with 9000 miles needs a monolith, it went from 30% left when I got home from my loop to now I have had to decrease my return slab from 70 mph to 65 mph and now the minimum 60 mph just to make it home with between 5% and 0%. Going by the SoC at the end of my ride, cold weather has permanently hurt the battery life as the final SoC has only kept getting worse.
Have you let it sit plugged in past 100% for a few hours to make sure it's fully charged on all cells/fully balanced? Sometimes 100% indicated is not really 100%. What does battery balance show?
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
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And kept it warm as it was plugged in?
We'd need to know the temperatures and time period you're talking about and check your Whpm over time. As a rider gets more comfortable with a bike or route, their average speed tends to increase...
-Crissa
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I need to ask a question here. Please excuse my ignorance as I am just getting started with Emotorcycles.
Does a Zero have Li-ion battery? I don't know if they react the same as LiFePO4 batteries re: temperature. I have found with LiFePO4 batteries, that reports indicate that in lower temperatures with ice motors, that owners just turn the bike on for a couple of minutes with the headlight on and the internal resistance heats up the battery to usuable, especially once the charging circuit starts delivering current to the battery.
I know it isn't the same exactly, but wouldn't the current flow , once the motor was being used, warm the battery sufficiently to working temperature? True the battery packs are biased towards removing heat once being used ( and charged) which could reduce the temp once airflow was occurring.
Would developing a shutter system to regulate airflow over the battery allow optimium temp. help with range in that case.
NOTE: Cold battery temps is NOT someting I am ever going to experience where I live , so this is all new to me.
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gregj: Some use an active cooling system to spread the head around... I think Energica does this? The new SR/F has a heating system to keep the battery back from falling beneath the minimum, but it interrupts operation to do so. Generally, that's at a very, very low temperature.
LiFEPO4 batteries are just a subset of Lithium-ion batteries.
Some have recommended putting a shroud around the battery pack in cold weather, which would be more effective but the same idea as shutters.
If you're cold, they're cold. And it's not just a matter of minimums: Even at 50F the battery performs worst than at 80F. It's a long sloping curve. The battery continues to perform down into below freezing temperatures, but at worse and worse efficiencies. And shouldn't be charged while below freezing, since the semi-liquid electrolyte might not function and adding electrons to it could short out. But you can still use it at that temperature! The electrons inside it would just be trapped.
-Crissa
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Too cold and the battery doesn't perform as well. Too hot & too fast, and you risk the motor overheating.
Often times it does appear these things are just made for California.
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As I understand it, the range is effectively being sapped by electricity being converted into heat and subsequently lost out of the battery. If it were properly insulated it wouldn't have this problem (though you'd then need a proper cooling system for when it got warm). Liquid cooling is probably the future of batteries, as Tesla have shown.
Cas :)
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Even today there are air-cooled ICE bikes so there will always be passive-cooled battery packs that just live with the trade-offs.
Certainly for higher performance you'll want an active system with cooling/heating.
-Crissa
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I know it isn't the same exactly, but wouldn't the current flow , once the motor was being used, warm the battery sufficiently to working temperature? True the battery packs are biased towards removing heat once being used ( and charged) which could reduce the temp once airflow was occurring.
Would developing a shutter system to regulate airflow over the battery allow optimium temp. help with range in that case.
NOTE: Cold battery temps is NOT someting I am ever going to experience where I live , so this is all new to me.
It is a good question. My ktm freeride has a normal mode, then an 80% reduced power mode which comes on either due to cold or low charge, and a 50% reduced power mode. I hardly notice the 80% mode but the 50% definitely. I have yet run the bike hard enough for it to go from the 80% mode to the 100% mode, even if I start out with a warm battery and stop for a while and it goes into 80% mode (from sitting outside) after say just a mile or so.
With the battery tools like a leaf blower that will drain the battery or batteries in 10 minutes they definitely get warm. Might even shut down in 100 degree F conditions. My suspicion is that for the folks on here in commuter mode their batteries are just too big for the warming from use to be significant.
Charging will warm these batteries, obviously more if charged at or near the max allowable. However they recommend not charging them if they are too cold.
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Thought I'd chime in as I've been riding to work before sunrise around -1C to 2C for a couple months now.
2019 Zero FXS 7.2 commute is around 50% city/highway
I do notice a significant drop in power and range at these temps. Normally I can hit 130-140km/h easily on the highway but I'm topping out around 70-90km/h depending on a couple degrees difference. I usually use between 25-30%. Today it read 36% when I left and it ran dry about 1km from work (had to push it the rest). Cells likely not balanced as it dropped from 2% to 0% rather suddenly. I kind of expected the computer to lie to you and keep a little extra in reserve as a bit of idiot proofing but I didn't notice it. I expect the combination of it being a little colder than the weather forecast said and also starting at a low charge did me in.
Even on the cold slower mornings I'm back to almost normal operation hitting around 120km/h in the afternoon when it's only 4-5C.
I think it might be time for me to use some insulating wrap on the battery until it warms up a bit. Thanks daylight savings =(
Anyone got a link to the most popular cold weather battery mods?
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"cold winter battery mods" = wrap the battery in 3mm (1/8in) neoprene foam sheeting and secure it properly. I was working on a product for this for a while, and definitely have a hand-made mockup I use when it gets cold and/or wet out.
Aerostich put a heated blanket around the FX battery for a stronger effect: https://www.aerostich.com/blog/category/zero-below-zero/
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My 2018 S with PT keeps about 10 miles in reserve after you hit "00". I guess the smaller the battery, the smaller the reserve. But in your case, it would appear to be a negative reserve. :o
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My 2018 S with PT keeps about 10 miles in reserve after you hit "00". I guess the smaller the battery, the smaller the reserve. But in your case, it would appear to be a negative reserve. :o
My 14SR consistent died at 6% indicated SoC. Haven't ridden the 16SR down often enough to see a pattern, I haven't felt a need to push distance as much with the larger battery..
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I've had it die at different numbers; I assume temperature makes SOC less reliable a reading since it affects the voltage and amphours in the cells.
-Crissa
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My 2018 S with PT keeps about 10 miles in reserve after you hit "00". I guess the smaller the battery, the smaller the reserve. But in your case, it would appear to be a negative reserve. :o
My 14SR consistent died at 6% indicated SoC. Haven't ridden the 16SR down often enough to see a pattern, I haven't felt a need to push distance as much with the larger battery..
The one time I rode my 2014 S with PT down to empty, it stopped right as the range indicator read "0". Unfortunately, that was at the bottom of the hill that I had to climb to reach my home. I tried pushing the bike, but became exhausted after about 5 feet. :-[ So then I turned off the ignition, let the battery pack rest for a couple of minutes and obtained enough power to slowly move about 100 feet before the bike stopped again. I did that about 5 times before making it to my garage. And that was the last time I ever tried to exhaust the battery pack on that Zero. ;)
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Is it possible to charge the PT independently of the bike? A solution involving taking it home and charging it could be a thing.
Cas :)
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That would be cool, except it still weighs like 70 lbs and I don't think the bike is programmed to use it over the main on-board.
-Crissa
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Is it possible to charge the PT independently of the bike? A solution involving taking it home and charging it could be a thing.
Cas :)
The PT may look like it should be removable, but I certainly wouldn't try to do it. When the original PT was found to be defective, a Zero factory technician took about 2 hours to remove the old one and replace it with a new one.