ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on January 09, 2014, 05:59:25 AM
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I just received a call from my Zero retail dealer who told me that the 2014 Zero S that I ordered has arrived in the shop. So it looks like the 2014 production line is up and running - kind of early for Zero. Unfortunately, the power tank production has not yet commenced, so my bike is not ready to be picked up yet. Apparently, my dealer will have to install it once they have received the additional battery pack from Zero. In the meantime I decided not to purchase the bike until the power tank is installed. Being an early adopter of new and improved electric motorcycles over the past 4 years has made me a little cautious regarding bikes that are not 100% complete and my 2012 bike is running perfectly. I will post additional news once I get more information, but I expect that it won't be long before the bike is ready to go. :)
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I hope you hear back soon!
88 miles of range @ 70 mph, 106 miles @ 55 mph .. that's almost double the range of your '12 ZF9.
Where are you going to go with the bike first?
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Looking forward to hearing about your adventures when your bike comes in!
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Well - I got another call from my dealer. I misunderstood my original conversation (typical of me) and the bike is at the Zero factory and ready to be shipped to the dealer, but they have not taken delivery of it yet. So that took some pressure off of me to make a quick decision. I also was told that the power tank is only a dealer installed option and will not be installed at the factory. Also, it may be a month or two before the power tanks will be manufactured and shipped out. So I decided to wait and will purchase the bike when the tank is available and can be installed by my dealer before the bike is sold. I also ordered the accessory rack and top case, as well as a commuter windshield. Everything will be installed by my dealer when available and I will ride off into the sunset on a fully farkled bike. Right now I am willing to wait and therfore will not have to be an early adopter of the 2014 model. I'll let someone else find any bugs (if any), which hopefully will get resolved in the second run of S models.
Having purchased over 40 motorcycles during my riding career, I have more patience than I used to have. The weather is really nice right now, but my 2012 bike is running great and will meet my needs for the next few months.
So who is going to be the first owner of a 2014 Zero S? I guess it won't be me. ;)
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Richard,
Good for you I'm trying to get the SR I figure just get all the trimmings ;D. On you being an early diopter of the 2014, my thought was that the 2013 and 2014 were pretty much the same except the power tank, new display and new custom mode configuration. Whatever bugs there were should be worked out in the 2013 model???
Danny
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Richard,
Good for you I'm trying to get the SR I figure just get all the trimmings ;D. On you being an early diopter of the 2014, my thought was that the 2013 and 2014 were pretty much the same except the power tank, new display and new custom mode configuration. Whatever bugs there were should be worked out in the 2013 model???
Danny
I agree and that is why I was going for the 2014 model. But with any revised motorcycle model (even from the major manufacturers) there is always a production learning curve for the assembly line workers and sometimes it takes them a while to get everything assembled just right. Having bought a lot of first off-the-production-line bikes before, the later models are almost always assembled better than the early bikes.
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Those are pretty good ranges. Been thinking to eventually get the additional power for my DS, but so far not planning to ride very far. Let us know how the power tank works out when you get it.
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You are more patient than me - I would pick up the bike and break it in while looking forward to the battery upgrade/additional range ;)
I'm hoping to be in a position to buy a 2015 Zero - I wonder what they'll come up with next year....
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You are more patient than me - I would pick up the bike and break it in while looking forward to the battery upgrade/additional range ;)
I'm hoping to be in a position to buy a 2015 Zero - I wonder what they'll come up with next year....
I figure that next year Zero will be dealing with an ABS system as that will be required to sell their bikes in the EU. That will keep their engineers busy this year. Beyond that, I can't even guess what they might be working on for the 2015 and later models. Maybe a sport bike with a fairing? ???
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I think the mandatory ABS is for 2016 in the EU. But as 2015 models will be sold from spring 2015 to spring 2016 bike manufacturers may have to already fit ABS in 2015 ?
Laurent
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Dunno.
2015 is when I have penciled for in replacing my ZF9 though. :)
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Dunno.
2015 is when I have penciled for in replacing my ZF9 though. :)
Its a tough one. I was originally seeing if I could finance a 2014 bike alongside my ZF9 but I think now I will pay off the ZF9 first and then see whether It makes sense to wait for 2015 or see if I can get a deal on an SR.
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I should have paid off my ZF9 by mid 2015, which means I'll be on the hunt for a new one (something lika an SR or an S with power tank)
Not sure what I'll do with the ZF9, part-ex is an option, but selling a high quality 9Kw battery pack seems a shame when something of that size is so useful...
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I figure that my ZF9 still has many years of use left in its hide. I plan to give it to my daughter for her birthday in March so that she can be even "greener" than she is now. She is going to sell her 2004 Kawasaki 250 Ninja after it left her stranded on the freeway during the last rain (dirty bike + water = HT electrical shorts).
I spent the last 9 years maintaining that thing. A real pain in the butt and I will be happy to see it go and be replaced by my Zero. No more hours of removing and reinstalling the fuel tank and fairing panels to access the top of the engine. And no more spending hours fishing for the thickness gauge that fell down into the depths of the engine when it slipped out of my fingers as I tried to measure the valve lash. :o
I am going to love her new Zero. ;)
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All three of the Suzuki bandits I owned were real sods for losing one or two of their cylinders in heavy rain.
I've always rode everywhere with a can of WD40 since owning those bikes... ;)
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I should have paid off my ZF9 by mid 2015, which means I'll be on the hunt for a new one (something lika an SR or an S with power tank)
Not sure what I'll do with the ZF9, part-ex is an option, but selling a high quality 9Kw battery pack seems a shame when something of that size is so useful...
Would your dealer do a PX? I very much doubt mine would, they can't sell the bikes they have let alone second hand stock.
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They have indicated they would (but thats only their word on the matter), They even said that if Zero are not back in the country by then, that they'd be able to still get me one.
They are a very good dealer. ;D
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Ready or not, my 2014 Zero has arrived (minus the power tank) at my dealer's showroom. They will keep it in the showroom until the power tank arrives - or I crack and pick it up before that happens. Photo attached.
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Here is a photo of the front of the bike showing the price tag.
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Ready or not, my 2014 Zero has arrived (minus the power tank) at my dealer's showroom. They will keep it in the showroom until the power tank arrives - or I crack and pick it up before that happens. Photo attached.
I would be leaving a smoking trail on the path to the dealer to pick it up. Power tank can wait....
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Any idea what it takes to remove and reinstall a Power Tank? Gotta enjoy the bike in its trimmed down configuration every now and then ;D
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Having the warm weather you mentioned in a thread - I would jump on that bike.
I think the installation is not a lot of work to do (but later ;))!
Congratulation to your new achievement!
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Having the warm weather you mentioned in a thread - I would jump on that bike.
I think the installation is not a lot of work to do (but later ;))!
Congratulation to your new achievement!
The two reasons that I am waiting to pick up the bike are that I am dealing with a recent family event that sucked up a chunk of my savings and I need to get my 2012 bike's firmware upgraded before I give it to my daughter. Both of those issues should be resolved by next month and then I will be able to better deal with adding an expensive new motorcycle to my collection - and have more time to ride it.
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I agreed with that having worked in a factory. Here's hoping the learning curve is short/low on 2014 I'm getting ready to buy a 2014 SR ;D (very nice).
Richard,
Good for you I'm trying to get the SR I figure just get all the trimmings ;D. On you being an early diopter of the 2014, my thought was that the 2013 and 2014 were pretty much the same except the power tank, new display and new custom mode configuration. Whatever bugs there were should be worked out in the 2013 model???
Danny
I agree and that is why I was going for the 2014 model. But with any revised motorcycle model (even from the major manufacturers) there is always a production learning curve for the assembly line workers and sometimes it takes them a while to get everything assembled just right. Having bought a lot of first off-the-production-line bikes before, the later models are almost always assembled better than the early bikes.
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Wonder if painting the side fairing yellow would be nice ;D
Ready or not, my 2014 Zero has arrived (minus the power tank) at my dealer's showroom. They will keep it in the showroom until the power tank arrives - or I crack and pick it up before that happens. Photo attached.
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The new bikes are here! Time to start a new 'Makes and Models' category :)
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Hope soon to see some videos of the new Zero SR on youtube.
Excited to see how it runs and how fast it uses the battery, more power uses more energy ;)
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The new bikes are here! Time to start a new 'Makes and Models' category :)
2013 and 2014 are pretty similar, should probably stay together. Maybe just change the forum name to 2013-2014..
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I finally picked up my Zero S ZF14.2 today. It was not cheap. Shipping and set-up charges were $700 (distance to factory is about 90 miles, but I assume that is a flat-rate charge) and I was charged an additional $220 for the installation of the power tank. So I guess the work took about 2 1/2 hours to perform. That seems reasonable considering that it was not a drop-in, like the photo on Zero's website seems to suggest, showing someone placing the battery module into the storage area under the "tank" fairing. The module is not removable by the owner and becomes a permanent addition to the bike. See attached photo showing the "tank". My feeling is that it could have been installed a lot easier and quicker (and less expensively) if the battery module was installed at the factory as the bike was constructed.
For my purposes, the power, even in Eco mode, seems quite satisfactory. When recharging after returning home, the charger maxed out at 1400 watts. The suspension seems to provide a smoother ride than did my 2012 bike when new. Perhaps that is the result of the 100 pounds additional weight. You can feel the additional 42 pounds while riding slowly and pushing the bike around. Unfortunately, the steering head bearings seem to have been overtightened at the factory, resulting in an irritating weave at slow speeds. If the bearings don't loosen up by the first servicing at 600 miles (and I have no reason to think that they will), I will have to have them adjusted by the shop.
Now I have to contact my insurance company and email the CA EV rebaters to see if they will give me the full $900 rebate, or will nick me $300 for not keeping my 2012 bike at least three years.
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Here is a photo of the bike. I think it looks pretty nice. I have a windshield and a rear rack and top box on order and I will install them when they arrive. I am not a big fan of the looks of the latest trend in the way of rear fender/license plate holders.
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Here is a photo of the wire rats nest under the seat and directly behind the "tank" area.
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Thanks for the interesting pictures! I wonder whether that power tank will become a factory option at some point.
I am amused that the lock for the removable "tank bag" remains. It would be very hard to use it for a helmet lock, but I suppose it could be done with a cable. You'll be better served with the top case, for sure. Congrats!
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I thought that was a helmet lock - until I tried to use it. Fortunately somewhere in my garage I have an aluminum helmet lock extender. It is shaped like a "T", with a hole in one end. The "T" section goes through the helmet D-ring and the hole goes through the lock pin. If I can find it, it should work OK.
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Here is a photo of the wire rats nest under the seat and directly behind the "tank" area.
I wonder how the power tank is connected?
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Here is a photo of the wire rats nest under the seat and directly behind the "tank" area.
I wonder how the power tank is connected?
I don't know, but I will be happy once I am sure that it actually is connected. ;) Right now my display is showing a fully charged bike with an estimated range of 104 miles.
Perhaps someone could post a photo of the same location on a standard model and a comparison of the two photos might give us some idea if there was additional wiring involved. ???
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The estimated range should be based upon riding history.
The ZF14.2 is rated at 106 miles @ 55 mph or 116 miles @ combined (50% 70 mph, 50% city riding) .. have you gotten a chance to perform a longer range test on the bike?
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I don't know, but I will be happy once I am sure that it actually is connected. ;) Right now my display is showing a fully charged bike with an estimated range of 104 miles.
Perhaps someone could post a photo of the same location on a standard model and a comparison of the two photos might give us some idea if there was additional wiring involved. ???
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I always thought that it was a connection on the battery pack itself and all it needed was to latch on to the main battery. But looking at your spaghetti mess in your picture it looks like its connected with the heavy guage orange cable?
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The estimated range should be based upon riding history.
The ZF14.2 is rated at 106 miles @ 55 mph or 116 miles @ combined (50% 70 mph, 50% city riding) .. have you gotten a chance to perform a longer range test on the bike?
Right now I am a little disappointed with the range. I just traveled about 20 miles, half freeway and half surface streets. When I returned the display said I used 104 watt/hours per mile and had 57 miles of range left. The watt hours seems about right, but the estimated range ought to be better, I would think. Well, time will tell. I wonder if the BMS is recognizing the additional battery module? In any case, I need to ride more. ;)
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Excellent looking bike Richard. I like the Yellow. It reminds me a little of my last Bueil Ulysses which was a similar color.
I wouldn't worry too much about the range yet. Get it through several cycles and break it in.
Ride it!
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Estimated range is probably going to be wildly inaccurate at first.
A better test would be to take a short-ish ride at a fairly constant speed.
At 70 mph, 10% of the battery should take you 8.8 miles on a ZF14.2, 7.0 miles on a ZF11.4.
At 55 mph, 10% of the battery should take you 10.6 miles on a ZF14.2, 8.5 miles on a ZF11.4.
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I am off this morning to give my 2012 S to my daughter and this weekend and on President's Day (I sure am glad that there isn't a Congress Day), I be riding, experimenting and checking out some of Protomech's recommended tests. I'll report back later. :)
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Richard,
Your new battery pack is a massive one (actually the most powerful in a std. -non prototype-electrical bike every made) the break-in process will take a while...unless -as you pointed out- the system does not recognize the extra battery pack...
A good break in process is to make short rides + charge 5-10 times
Enjoy the bike!!! (I wish I were you) ;D
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Well, the 2014 manual says battery does not need a break in so I am not sure the break in applies here.
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I just returned from a 33-mile ride, about half at freeway speeds and half on surface streets. Attached is a photo of the display upon arriving home. I plan to push the envelope further tomorrow with a 60-mile ride.
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The new dash is awesome!
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Does the Wh/mile update as you ride? That is basically the most useful piece of information when attempting longer rides. Thanks for the photo!
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Does the Wh/mile update as you ride? That is basically the most useful piece of information when attempting longer rides. Thanks for the photo!
I think it does. But with my eyes, I can't really be sure. ;) Some of that fine print is pretty hard to see while trying to keep an eye on the traffic around me. ::)
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This might be a little of topic but related. Does anyone know how to program the custom mode? I've read the manual and all it say is to use the app from android but the app doesn't have a tab for custom or sports. Am I missing something? Richard sorry if this is off topic I didn't what to start a new thread just for this.
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I saw my dealer work the custom program before I left their shop. With the custom program you can limit top speed, power, regen with throttle shut and regen under braking - and that seemed to be about all. The custom program that came from the factory seemed to have 100% power, 100% top speed, about 75% throttle regen and 100% braking regen. That looked good to me so I left it that way and am not really interested in changing anything at this time. Besides, I don't own a "smart phone".
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I saw my dealer work the custom program before I left their shop. With the custom program you can limit top speed, power, regen with throttle shut and regen under braking - and that seemed to be about all. The custom program that came from the factory seemed to have 100% power, 100% top speed, about 75% throttle regen and 100% braking regen. That looked good to me so I left it that way and am not really interested in changing anything at this time. Besides, I don't own a "smart phone".
Richard do you know if they did that crom a smartphone?
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Richard do you know if they did that from a smartphone?
Yes, the saleslady was using her smartphone that had Zero's app already downloaded on to it.
According to the Zero owner's manual, page 3.15, you can get this app for free from at either the Apple iTunes store or the Google Play store (the appropriate trademarks are noted in the manual ;) ). The app will: adjust the Custom mode to alter the bike's performance; can collect and email logs to the Zero support staff; examine the precise SOC of the motorcycle; and examine real time power usage. In order to do this you have to pair the instrument panel with a Bluetooth-equipped smartphone and they tell you how to do this in the manual.
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You program custom mode in the zero app under settings-drive setup.
On the 2014's, eco mode is no longer programmable. It is now a fixed setting along with sport mode. Custom mode is where you can program your settings.
Jose Soriano
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Now I'm really confused all I get from settings - drive setup is ECO mode settings. Unless eco mode is custom mode, which doesn't make sense.
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Congrats on the new toy Richard!
I'm really interested in your Real World Range experiments. I just got my 2012 ZF9 back from Santa Cruz - they seemed to have found the problem causing my range issues (which have been there since the day I bought it). I'll riding it as much as I can during the next few days to confirm the improved range.
With the advertised range for your bike; 88 miles at 70 MPH, and 106 miles at 55 MPH - I'm sure your expectations are high - mine would be :-)
Let us know how it goes!
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You cannot program eco mode anymore, it is a fixed setting on the 2014. The 2013 had the programmable mode on eco. Sport was fixed. But on the 14, the only programmable mode is custom. The app was designed for the 2013 bike so that is why it is labeled like that. I assume a future update to the app will correct that....
Jose Soriano
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Yesterday, I took an easy ride to Alice's restaurant, a 33-mile ride, and the power left showed 60% when I arrived. I then charged up while I was there for 2.5 hours, which brought the SOC back up to 88%. I then rode the 40 miles back home - downhill to Pescadero, then up the coast to Pacifica, averaging about 50 mph along the way. I arrived home showing 18% SOC. I then put the bike on the charger and it charged for 7.5 hours and 9.15 kWh at the wall. But it stopped charging at 90% and there were odd flashing white lights at the BMS inspection window. Two white lights in the center would flash, followed by two white lights at the edges in quick succession. The charger had turned off and was not receiving any current. The light pattern is nowhere to be found in the manual. The dash display showed another 2 hours were needed to compete charging. So I unplugged the charger, turned on the bike, there were no warning lights and the white lights went out. I then turned the ignition off, plugged the bike back in. It immediately started charging at 1440 watts. A few minutes later, the charging stopped and the SOC jumped to 100%, where it has stayed all night, with only 4 watts now being drawn from the wall outlet. Now everything seems back to normal, but it sure doesn't seem like the BMS knows that there is another battery pack in the system. My current plan is to keep on riding and see if anything will change with time. ???
Currently it is looking like I can't expect more than about 80 miles of secondary road riding before the display will show that power has run out. This is only about 10% better than the range that I was getting on my 2012 9 kWh S under similar conditions. Right now my thinking is that either the battery wasn't hooked up properly, or the BMS is not recognizing the additional battery pack. ???
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My 2012 ZF9 was running actually as far as my 2013 ZF11.4
The 2013 has a larger battery but also a larger motor.
Real World range on my bikes was :
ZF9 = 123 km. (76 miles)
ZF11,4 = 126 km. (78 miles)
I was running about 80-100 km/h. (50-62 mph.) almost all the way in reasonably bad weather
The real World range on a Zero SR ZF11.4 + powertank must bee about 130-140 km. (80-86 miles), I think the power tank give about 17 miles
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I have three additional thoughts: :o My 2014 S has a very accurate speedometer, whereas my 2012 S, not so much - it was about 10% slow. So it is possible that I am riding faster than I was previously and that uses more power. Also the 2014 bike is 100 pounds heavier than my 2012 model and that likely also cuts into the range. Finally, I seem to recall that it took about 1000 miles of riding before my 2012 S really started to get some decent range out of its batteries (or maybe my "range anxiety" started fading). I know that Zero claims that the battery pack does not require any "break-in", but maybe it does get better after a while.
The nice thing about riding electric is that I never worry what it is costing me in fuel to enjoy the sport. :) Got to go for another ride tomorrow. It is supposed to be sunny again and there is no rain in sight for the next week. ???
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88% down to 18% = 70% of a ZF14.2 battery should get you 62 miles @ 70 mph. "Even" a ZF11.4 should deliver 46 miles @ 70 mph on 70% of the battery .. but your power consumption is reasonable given a combination of hills and additional weight.
2.5 hours @ 1.4 kW @ 85% efficiency = 3 kWh delivered, 30% of a ZF11.4 pack and 24% of a ZF14.2 pack. You gained 28% SOC, which seems closer to the ZF11.4 bike.
So my suspicion is that you are correct, the power tank is indeed not properly hooked up.
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Although I like the idea of the powertank, I would much rather have the storage compartment. (And the additional acceleration that comes with the lighter bike) The storage compartment is one of my favorite features of the bike. It's so convenient and I use it everyday. I think the range of the 11.4 is good enough. I've never really had a situation where the powertank would have been worth its $2k price tag. Anything more than 100 miles is most likely going to a road trip and the powertank wouldn't be enough to make it "convenient" anyway.
Just my $0.02
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Although I like the idea of the powertank, I would much rather have the storage compartment. (And the additional acceleration that comes with the lighter bike) The storage compartment is one of my favorite features of the bike. It's so convenient and I use it everyday. I think the range of the 11.4 is good enough. I've never really had a situation where the powertank would have been worth its $2k price tag. Anything more than 100 miles is most likely going to a road trip and the powertank wouldn't be enough to make it "convenient" anyway.
Just my $0.02
The storage bay was replaced with this RKA seat pack. See attached photo. With me living near the Santa Cruz Mountains and loving to ride up there and into the State parks and many hiking areas in the hills, the extra range that the power tank promised would really expand my recreational riding envelope. Quiet and redwood trees just seem to go together. :)
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A friend gave me a "smart phone" that he didn't need anymore and my son-in-law came over last night and downloaded the Zero app that can communicate with my bike to check on and alter its operation. It showed that with 100% SOC the battery power available was only 10.58 kWh. That told me that the bike's BMS was not recognizing the additional battery module. So I took a ride to my Zero dealer and they concurred that there was something wrong. After a couple of hours of checking and consulting with Zero, it turns out that the BMS on the new battery module was defective and was not communicating with the bike's master BMS. So a new one was ordered from Zero and will be installed on the "power tank" module. The tech said that should only take about 30 minutes and hopefully that should solve my current range anxiety.
Sunny and warm weather is being predicted for the next week, so I am looking forward to riding my ZF 11.4 S this week and next weekend, which hopefully soon should be a ZF 14.2 model. :)
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You think they would test these before sending them out 0_0
I use to assemble mad manufacture laboratory equipment and we would beat the crap out of our gear before sending it off to ensure it was up to snuff.
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You think they would test these before sending them out 0_0
I use to assemble mad manufacture laboratory equipment and we would beat the crap out of our gear before sending it off to ensure it was up to snuff.
My dealer said the same thing. They said that Zero typically tests the equipment that goes into their bikes and they were surprised that a failure like this had occurred. Naturally, they said that they had never run into this sort of electronic hardware failure before. However, it didn't surprise me, as whenever I get around any electronic equipment it seems to go bad. I can even make grocery store cash registers go nuts. :o I guess this one just slipped by Zero's QC. ???
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You think they would test these before sending them out 0_0
I use to assemble mad manufacture laboratory equipment and we would beat the crap out of our gear before sending it off to ensure it was up to snuff.
This gives me the image of you cackling in your secret lair with spikey electrified hair. "with this new mad laboratory equipment the world will soon be mine!".
Exactly how I imagine DoctorBass to look before he posted videos
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You think they would test these before sending them out 0_0
I use to assemble mad manufacture laboratory equipment and we would beat the crap out of our gear before sending it off to ensure it was up to snuff.
This gives me the image of you cackling in your secret lair with spikey electrified hair. "with this new mad laboratory equipment the world will soon be mine!".
Exactly how I imagine DoctorBass to look before he posted videos
Yeah!.. Difficylt to have hair look like that when you nearly have no hair 8)
But it's great to hear your impressions =)
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I finally picked up my Zero S ZF14.2 today. It was not cheap. Shipping and set-up charges were $700 (distance to factory is about 90 miles, but I assume that is a flat-rate charge) and I was charged an additional $220 for the installation of the power tank....
Long time visitor/lurker, first time poster.
Not sure if it is appropriate to ask this, but ask I will anyway!
Did you pay the MSRP of $17,490 plus the above charges ? I am just trying to figure out if there is room for negotiation and if so, what others have been able to do. I am looking to buy the same configuration as Richard (2014 ZF11 with power tank). And the screen & top luggage box accessory.
I want to go to the local dealer with as much information & educated negotiation capability as possible.
What (if any) reduction in price can I expect/negotiate ?
So, should I expect to pay a total of $20,750 (ouch!) with the following breakdown -
MSRP ---------------------->$17,490
Transportation & set up --->$ 700
Power tank Installation ---> $ 200
Luggage Top box ---->$ 600
Windscreen ---------------->$ 200
Sales Tax @ 6%(FL)-------> 1157
Title/Registration/DMV fee-> 200
Insurance for the year------> 200 (Guesstimate...)
Now that I have detailed out the potential cost, I am beginning to think my negotiations with my wife are going to be tougher than previously anticipated ! Wish me luck.
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Not knowing how it is in your part of the world, but I'm guessing it'll similar all over the world, it's a question of timing. If you go and buy in the dealer's busy season, good luck. But if you buy for example during the winter, low season, you have a far better chance of getting them to spring for many of the extra costs. The closer you get to the end of the year, the better, since they want to close their books as high as possible, and fulfil any quotas.
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I finally picked up my Zero S ZF14.2 today. It was not cheap. Shipping and set-up charges were $700 (distance to factory is about 90 miles, but I assume that is a flat-rate charge) and I was charged an additional $220 for the installation of the power tank....
Long time visitor/lurker, first time poster.
Not sure if it is appropriate to ask this, but ask I will anyway!
Did you pay the MSRP of $17,490 plus the above charges ? I am just trying to figure out if there is room for negotiation and if so, what others have been able to do. I am looking to buy the same configuration as Richard (2014 ZF11 with power tank). And the screen & top luggage box accessory.
I want to go to the local dealer with as much information & educated negotiation capability as possible.
What (if any) reduction in price can I expect/negotiate ?
So, should I expect to pay a total of $20,750 (ouch!) with the following breakdown -
MSRP ---------------------->$17,490
Transportation & set up --->$ 700
Power tank Installation ---> $ 200
Luggage Top box ---->$ 600
Windscreen ---------------->$ 200
Sales Tax @ 6%(FL)-------> 1157
Title/Registration/DMV fee-> 200
Insurance for the year------> 200 (Guesstimate...)
Now that I have detailed out the potential cost, I am beginning to think my negotiations with my wife are going to be tougher than previously anticipated ! Wish me luck.
That is pretty much what I paid, except our sales tax is 9%. :( The dealer was not going to give any deals on the first bike like that sold. I don't think they are giving any deals at all on any 2014 Zeros until the initial demand drys up. If you want to save money, hit your dealer in about 6 months and hope that Zero isn't trying to match their production with sales demand and then cut off production when sales slow during the late summer, like they seem to have done last year (which makes good business sense for a small manufacturing company). Like any new motorcycle purchase, what do you value more, the ability to ride now or saving some money? Only you can decide that. I figure when prices go this high, the possibility of saving a thousand dollars or so, isn't all that much - percentage-wise. ??? Besides, I am not getting any younger. ;)
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How are the mirrors Richard? For me (and others) the mirrors on the 2012 were not located out far enough to see behind well. I had to order after-market extenders.
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I did the same with my 2012DS but now I have my 2013FX mirrors at the 2012DS ;D.
If some one has to replace a defect one - I would go for a 2013 Mirror.
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The mirrors on my SR are fine, no issues at all. I test rode a 2011 Zero S so I know how bad the old ones sucked. The mirrors on my SR do stick out far enough that if the bike falls over I am not sure they will survive.
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Harlan has 2013 mirrors if you don't want to go barend on your 2012, they're not terribly expensive.
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I also use 2013 mirrors on my 2012. The ability to see behind me is important and they work great.
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How are the mirrors Richard? For me (and others) the mirrors on the 2012 were not located out far enough to see behind well. I had to order after-market extenders.
One of the first modifications that I made to my 2012 S was to install "extenders" on the mirror stalks. After that they worked perfectly.
I am happy with the mirrors on my 2014 S. They are about the same distance out as the 2012 model with the extenders. For me they are perfectly placed. I get about an inch on the mirror surface that shows my shoulder and the rest of the mirror shows what is behind me. :)
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Thirty minutes after posting that I was still waiting for my “power tank†to be repaired, I received a call from my Zero retail dealer telling me that a Zero technician had just arrived at the shop with a new battery module, after driving there from the factory and if I could visit the shop now he would replace the module and fix my bike. So I jumped on the Zero and made a beeline for Mission Motorcycles.
The friendly technician (we spoke for a while after the bike was repaired) worked for about 2 hours, replacing the old battery module with the defective bms with a brand new module and then tried to get everything working again. Unfortunately, the bike still wouldn't communicate properly with the new battery. After working on the bike for a couple of hours and spending almost as much time on his cell phone speaking with the factory engineers, somewhat by accident, he found a connector that had a bent pin in the wiring loom. Once that was fixed, he downloaded the latest firmware, checked to make sure everything was working properly and I was sent on my way - a happy camper again. After the bike fully charges and balances its batteries, I'll hook up the Zero app and find out how many amp-hours the power tank version has. The 11.4 kWh version showed 92 amp-hours with a fully charged battery pack.
While I was at the shop I took the attached photo showing some of the Zeros on the showroom floor. There were about 10 new and previous-year Zero models scattered around the crowded showroom in random locations available for sale.
I might add that all of the problems that I have had with my two Zero motorcycles were all related to mechanical problems, not software or design issues. So I would have to say that Zero is doing an excellent job with the design and engineering of their motorcycles and are sometimes brought down by component malfunctions or manufacturing errors - just like any established IC manufacturer encounters.
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Wow, at least it got sorted out in the end, but the frustration must have been enormous. I think you're right about your statement that the design and engineering is good, but components and what I would call Quality Control is still missing.
From my side, for a DS order and payed in December, promised to be with me 15 January, it still isn't here. First they forgot that the registration of a US built bike takes a different route than a European built one, then they needed to wait an eternity for the tools to do the recall and yesterday I get an email from Zero saying that when they finally did the recall last week, they discovered a problem with the battery and now need to send it back to the factory, for who knows how long.
To me, it looks a lot like "running in" problems, processes are not in place yet.
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I think that Zero's limited resources are more focused on production of the 2014 bikes right now, rather than QC, after-sales service, or long-term test riding and development of a new model (such as what Brammo did with their Empulse bike). On the other hand, I have been buying BMW motorcycles for the past 25 years and every one has had more problems, failures, recalls, broken major parts, field modification campaigns, design issues, etc. than Zero ever dreamed of. However, what made the BMW experience bearable was their excellent dealer network, after-sales organization, technician training, parts availability and the ability of BMW to stand behind their dealers financially when things go wrong (such as 51,000 motorcycles being recalled for a badly designed fuel hose bracket).
Zero's real problem is a weak dealer and distribution network that is the result of their small company trying to advance the electric motorcycle industry by pulling up on its boot straps. It is just going to take time to create and manage a world-wide manufacturing, distribution and sales network that many of us expect from our experiences with the long-time established auto and motorcycle firms. Let's all hope that Zero is up to this task.
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Here are the battery statistics on my fully-charged "power tank" optioned 2014 Zero. When you see 115 amp-hours, instead of 92 amp-hours battery capacity, you know it is all hooked up correctly. When you see this, you know you are ready to ride. :)
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Richard230,
Thank you for posting the photos. My Power Tank was shipped on Thursday and hopefully I can get it installed sometime this coming week. Will take those numbers with me to know whether or not the Power tank is set-up/working properly.
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Nice. Very cool to be rolling with 13KW of stored energy.
Glad they sorted it out and got your bike running correctly and I am looking forward to seeing some big mile single charge reports from this bike.
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Here are the battery statistics on my fully-charged "power tank" optioned 2014 Zero. When you see 115 amp-hours, instead of 92 amp-hours battery capacity, you know it is all hooked up correctly. When you see this, you know you are ready to ride. :)
If I am not mistaken this should work to make a screenshot with you phone:
To capture your phone’s screen image, press and hold both the Power key and down volume key for three seconds, or until you hear the camera shutter click.
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Way cool - now you can ride to my place in Stockton - I'll even hook you up with some electricity ;)
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Here are a few things that I noticed about my bike recently:
The ignition does not have to be on for my smartphone app to pair with the bike. It only has to be plugged in and charging for that to happen. But once the bike finishes bulk charging you do have to turn on the ignition for the phone to pair with the bike.
Ever since the power tank started working, charging stops at 98%. Turing the ignition on and then off again will allow it to continue to charge up to 100%.
My bike was reprogrammed with the latest Zero firmware. Ever since then it seems like max regen is showing one "bar" less on the instrument panel when braking than it did before the extra battery module was connected. I don't know if this is due to the additional battery or to the reprogramming. It is hard to tell by my seat of the pants if regen drag is less than before or if it is just a function of the instrument panel display.
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I just returned from my longest ride so far with the power tank working - and it worked very well, I might add. I rode about 25 miles at freeway speeds, 25 miles at expressway speeds and about 23 miles on surface streets, with 35-40 mph speed limits. When I returned home the Zero app was showing 38% battery power left, battery voltage was 101volts, balancing was at 10mv and there was 4.343 kWh remaining in the pack. My plan is to charge the bike with the Kill a Watt connected and then compare the amount of power taken from the wall, vs the 8.88 kWh it will take to recharge the pack to its max capacity of 13.22 kWh. That should give us an idea how efficient the charger is. Only 5.5 hours left until fully charged.
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Ever since the power tank started working, charging stops at 98%. Turing the ignition on and then off again will allow it to continue to charge up to 100%.
My SR stops at 99% I never tried the ignition or unplugging the cord but if I ride it and charge again it charges to 100%. Hopefully that is normal.
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So yesterday I rode my ZF14.2 Zero S around for 73 miles. I ran the battery pack down to 38% and the Zero app was showing that I had 4.34 kWh left in my pack (voltage was 101V and balancing was at 10mv) when I returned home. So I figured that I would check the efficiency of the bike's on-board charger by plugging it in to my Kill A Watt meter and charging away until it was fully charged. Which I did. After about 8 hours of charging, starting at 1250 watts and ending at 1450 watts, the bike finally was 100% charged. (Well, actually it stopped charging at 89% and then I unplugged it and plugged it back in and it started charging again. After 15 minutes at 1450 watts, it was suddenly up to 100% and power dropped to 4 watts.)
The Zero app said that the voltage was now 116V and the battery pack had a total usable capacity of 13.33 kWh (balancing was at 3mv). Then I checked the Kill A Watt and discovered that I had pulled 8.47 kWh from the wall. Let me see, 8.47 kWh to replace 9 kWh of battery energy. ??? My charger must be 106% efficient and is generating more power than I am paying for. This is sure a lot better than keeping my money in my bank account - which is not nearly as efficient. ::)
So what is going on? Is the Zero app exaggerating about the battery pack's kWh capacity? Could my Kill A Watt be funky? Or is something else going on? My money is on the Zero computer not calculating the pack's kWh correctly. Maybe the voltage change while charging and discharging is confusing its calculations?
Whatever is going on with the charging program, the bike is running really well - especially on the freeway where the power doesn't seem to drop like a rock the way it did on my 2012 S. And when riding at 30 mph, I can really believe that claim of a 170 mile range - not that I ever plan to test it. That would be over 5 hours of riding at slow speeds and I don't think I could take that. ;)
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About 8 hours of charging at 1250-1450 watts should use 10.0-11.6 kWh. Is it possible your time estimate is off, or that it dropped down to low power before then?
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Seconded. Assuming linear increase in electricity (it probably isn't, but this should be a close approximation), you should have gotten about 10.8kWh from the wall. (using an average of 1350W for 8 hours).
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Whatever is going on with the charging program, the bike is running really well - especially on the freeway where the power doesn't seem to drop like a rock the way it did on my 2012 S. And when riding at 30 mph, I can really believe that claim of a 170 mile range - not that I ever plan to test it. That would be over 5 hours of riding at slow speeds and I don't think I could take that. ;)
Definitely seems like overkill for city operation - but couriers that drive all day long could probably use that range.
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Whatever is going on with the charging program, the bike is running really well - especially on the freeway where the power doesn't seem to drop like a rock the way it did on my 2012 S. And when riding at 30 mph, I can really believe that claim of a 170 mile range - not that I ever plan to test it. That would be over 5 hours of riding at slow speeds and I don't think I could take that. ;)
Definitely seems like overkill for city operation - but couriers that drive all day long could probably use that range.
Or for fleets that don't have charging capacity for all of their vehicles every night.
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So what is going on? Is the Zero app exaggerating about the battery pack's kWh capacity? Could my Kill A Watt be funky? Or is something else going on? My money is on the Zero computer not calculating the pack's kWh correctly. Maybe the voltage change while charging and discharging is confusing its calculations?
This is a guess but I would say it is the algorithm for calculating charge must have some bugs in it especially with the extra power tank. Probably a firmware upgrade needed in the future. I believe Richard is accurate with his monitoring of the charging but whether the problem is with the Kill A watt or the S is anyone guess.
Richard you should plug the Kill A watt into a known appliance and rule that out as the cause then you would know if it is the S or your monitoring. ::)
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It might be the Kill A Watt as lately it has been going blank when I plug it in and needs to be pulled out of the wall and reconnected to get it to work again. The 8 hour charging time is pretty close and I kept checking to be sure that the bike was charging all of the time. I think the estimate of 10.8 kWh might be much closer to reality than 8.47 kWh.
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It might be the Kill A Watt as lately it has been going blank when I plug it in and needs to be pulled out of the wall and reconnected to get it to work again. The 8 hour charging time is pretty close and I kept checking to be sure that the bike was charging all of the time. I think the estimate of 10.8 kWh might be much closer to reality than 8.47 kWh.
That still doesn't explain the charging up to 98 and 99 percent.
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I just rode around for a few miles today and dropped the battery pack down to 92%. I then plugged it in for an hour and it has stopped charging and shows 98% charge. I am going to just leave it plugged in without messing with anything and see what happens. This did not happen before the "power tank" had been hooked up to the system and my bike received the latest firmware programming. Perhaps Zero's new firmware was modified to cut back on charging up to 100%, or maybe it could have something to do with the extra battery capacity tricking the BMS or charger in some way. ???
It occurs to me that installing a brand new battery after running the original batteries for 15 cycles might have something to do with the odd charging % numbers. I do note that both the voltage and kWh shown by the app when fully charged are slightly greater than they were just after the power tank was installed.
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Sounds like the bike just needs time to 'learn' about its new battery.
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I just ordered a new Kill O Watt. I note that my charger is running very close to the gadget's 1500 watt maximum output and my wall voltage of 122 volts is greater than its 115 volt specification. But for $20, I guess I will give it another try. I think my old device lost its marbles.
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Whatever is going on with my charging display, it can't be too bad. The charger shut off at an indicated 98% yesterday. This morning it was still reading 98%. Four hours later it said 100% and that is where it is staying. ???
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My Kil-O-Watt meter is also flaky - it seems that the liquid crystal display is sometimes missing segments - if I push on it the display fluctuates.
As far as the delay between 98% and 100% charge - could this be similar to the "Finish phase/maintenance mode" of the 2012 charging sequence? My bike doesn't tell me the exact percentage of charge, but I 've noticed that even though the 'bars' on the fuel gauge show a full charge, the BMS LEDs are still tracking across, as if still charging. The LED on the charger shows a flashing or solid green light at this point - indicating "Finish phase" or "maintenance mode" (presumably for cell balancing) for awhile before the BMS LED lights finally quit tracking across to indicate that the charge is complete.
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I don't have a smart-phone but if I compare my 2013FX to the 2012DS the charging is quite different.
"Sometimes" at +3°C the 2013 don't start charging >:( - if I return later it is charging ???. Certainly the chill-factor can lower the temp but when the batteries are used they should be warmed too.
I don't see the SOC like you - but if I replug my FX when the battery is full it start again and didn't lower the current in the next minutes like my 2012 will do - but it charge a significant amount of energy till it stops.
I have to mention it is still cold here and maybe the behavior will change with warmer weather.
Since 2013 I think we have a new µC HW in the bike controlling the chargers.
Does somebody use additional Delta-qs with the 2013/14?
How do this chargers work on your bikes (SOC...)? as much as I know the Delta-q has more charging intelligence integrated.
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I just returned from a 95 mile ride, which ran the battery pack down to 25% or 2.8 kWh. While I took the roads less traveled, I am really happy with the performance of the bike and the power tank option. It is really nice to be close to the Santa Cruz Mountains, the Pacific Coast Highway, tight one-lane roads and redwood trees. ;D
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I'd love to see some pics of the bike on the PCH if you get a chance Richard. Memories of a childhood holiday. I will drive it again eventually.
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I'd love to see some pics of the bike on the PCH if you get a chance Richard. Memories of a childhood holiday. I will drive it again eventually.
Yesterday was the perfect day for such a photo, but wouldn't you know it, I forgot to bring my camera. :( However, I will keep your request in mind and post a photo or two when the conditions are right (Zero + zero fog). ;)
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Richard230,
It sounds like your Power Tank and main battery are playing well together. Do you remember how many miles you had on your S when you had the Power Tank installed? I had over 1,000 miles on my SR when I had the Power Tank installed and right now the two batteries are not playing well together and Zero is trying hard to figure out why. My main battery pack had 38 charge cycles at the time of Power Tank installation. What I am wondering is if it is possible when both battery packs are connected for one to discharge at a slightly faster or slower rate than the other because one has been in use for awhile and the other battery is new. If so this could be an explaination for my Contactor Error problem. Zero has said that both batteries are not being charged to the same level yet despite this once charged the Contactor Error message goes away. Until of course you go out and ride. If you take a short trip such as 3-4 miles there is no problem. But when you go out for longer rides (typically 30+ miles) and turn the bike off you get a Contactor Error when you turn it back on prior to charging it. Maybe I am way off base here but right now this is not an easy problem to solve. Thanks for any insight.
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Ultranar, I was thinking the same thing. Fortunately, I had not ridden my bike all that long before the power tank was connected to the system. I had ridden about 650 miles and I believe my number of recharges was around 15 to 18. Installing a brand new battery into a used pack would logically seem to cause some confusion for the BMS, but I am really just armchair guessing, as I have no idea how the BMS really functions when individual battery modules start showing different voltages, or remaining kWh, after being used for a while during a ride. Perhaps the system goes nuts when the balancing voltage, or differential power remaining, between packs goes beyond a certain value?
I sure hope Zero can figure out a solution for you, as the "power tank" is a nice option and was well worth the extra money for me. I am sure that Zero want to be sure that the power tank is on firm engineering ground before selling any more of them.
It will be interesting to see what Motorcycle.com has to say about the SR with the power tank (factory installed) that they are evaluating right now. I suspect that once they finish their review that test bike will be passed along to Cycle World or Motorcycle Consumer News
later this year for them to review also. No doubt Zero would not like the magazines to have the same problem as you are having.
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I'd love to see some pics of the bike on the PCH if you get a chance Richard. Memories of a childhood holiday. I will drive it again eventually.
This morning I scooted up to the new Devils Slide bridge/tunnels that now bypasses the worst of the Slide area (which will be opened as a County hiking and bicycling park later this week). I took this photo of the new bridge and tunnels (in the distance) just as it started to (finally) rain.
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Here is a photo looking north down Highway 1 (Pacific Coast Highway), toward the valley where I live, three miles inland from the Ocean.
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Nice! :)
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Nice one Richard. I will have to get a few pics around the coast of Jersey when I have the bike back. I did record a POV video in the summer but ended up stuck behind a Harley Owner's group ride which obviously spoiled the whole thing. So i never uploaded it.
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I stopped by my BMW dealer yesterday for a free charge. ;D Photo attached.
I also am very happy with the 2014 Zero S performance on the freeway. I rode the 40 miles back from the BMW dealer to my home, 30 miles of which was on the freeway at 65 mph. I only used 41% of my available power, which is a whole lot better than my 2012 S would have done. 40 miles at those speeds would not have left me with very many "bars" by the time I returned home. I still think the 2012 bike was just as efficient, if not more so, than the 2014 model, if you ride at 40 mph or under, but it is not nearly as efficient at the 2014 bike at higher speeds, in my opinion.
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The beauty of a Zero! Good to hear about the highway range improving - not that I do much highway riding myself, but it's good to know the range is there if you need it.
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The 2014 ZF14.2 bike is about 100 pounds heavier than the 2012 ZF9 bike. The extra weight and the taller gearing will both hurt it in low speed operation.
However, I think this is probably acceptable from the user's perspective. 12.5 kWh provides almost an entire day of riding @ 20-25 mph average, and heat production is minimal. For example, trading a 10% reduction in city performance (heat / efficiency) for a 10% improvement in highway performance is reasonable.
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Today, I rode home on my yellow 2014 Zero S with power tank. I purchased the Givi top box and commuter screen as well.
The dealer is 90 miles away in Stuart, Florida. I had hoped it would be a fun 2.5 hour ride back home on relatively congestion free surface streets with speed limits varying between 45 MPH and 35 MPH. It turned into a 4hr adventure due to heavy downpours (had to pull over and take cover) and incessant drizzle (braved it and rode thru it) all the way home.
Thanks to Richard who confirmed that I would be able to make the trip back with capacity to spare, I was at least able to ride home without range anxiety. And sure enough, when I reached home, I still had 54% battery left. The 171 mile claim by Zero certainly looks to be true.
I also had voice mail from a concerned dealer trying to ascertain if I had reached home safely! I must admit, that was certainly thoughtful of them. Although they are pleasant to deal with, I am hoping I do not have to drive all the way back to them to get the squeaky rear wheel/brake fixed. Hopefully it will go way in a few hundred miles. :-\
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At least when you do ride back to them.. you know that you can ride a little faster (if one-way).
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Assuming you have ridden ICE bikes before I'm sure you found the Zero is much more pleasant to ride in adverse weather conditions than a comparable ICE? Its nice not having to constantly short shift in the rain or slip the clutch for hours on end in traffic.
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Congratulations on the new bike JamesBond! Pictures please ;)
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Yes, congratulations Arun. You sure beat my power consumption estimate on your ride back. Have fun riding your new bike and expanding your knowledge of how useful a Zero S with a big battery pack can be. ;D