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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Farfle on December 11, 2015, 08:17:51 PM
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Hello all, Jackson (Farfle on ES) here.
I am dumping some good info on our batteries as they relate to the Zero bikes. You guys will hopefully find this usefull in your electric journeys, feel free to ask questions, I am happy to keep misinformation to a minimum.
Here is a quick background on the cells, and some long winded do's and dont's:
First, a quick background on the cells:
The 25Ah cells are a solid cell, and are Farasis's oldest chemistry design. They are a manganese-rich cathode (NMC) 25ah cell with excellent cycle life, and acceptable C-rate. These were used in MY13, MY14 and MY15 FX only.
The 27Ah cell introduced for the model year 15 bikes is an adaptation of the 25ah cell chemistry with thinner foils and more of them, this means that there is more active materiel (more capacity) but less conductive path to get that capacity in and out. So for the slow discharge S/DS bikes, you get more capacity, but they are lower C rate, and cannot handle being used in the FX platform. (Used in MY15 S/DS only)
The 29Ah cell was introduced for MY16, the 29 is Farasis's newest generation of NMC cell, and they are awesome. They have both higher discharge rate (peak and continuous) than the 25Ah cell, and more capacity (especially at higher C rates/cooler temperatures) than the 27. This is used in all MY16 bikes.
Ok, on to the Do's and dont's.
The cells mainly age in two ways (there are other processes going on, but not dealing with those today),
The ways that the cells degrade are:
No.1: The electrolyte reacting with the active components of the cathode and anode in the cells, and releasing gas (calender life),
No.2: The Interaction between the lithium ions and the anode/cathode blend that causes a small amount of damage each time they are cycled. (Cycle life)
These factors affect the cells about equally, but extreme conditions can sway it either way.
Things that speed up degredation, and make your battery sad ( AKA the "Dont's"):
Hot temperatures: This causes the electrolyte to become more reactive. At Farasis, We have one of the most stable electrolyte blends in the biz, and use alot of proprietary tech to keep our cathode/anode blend as least reactive as possible, but the effect is unavoidable.
High voltage: Again, The higher the potential between the cathode and anode, the faster the reaction between the electrolyte and the actives occurs.
Super low voltage: Below a certain voltage (2.0-2.2V/cell) the potential between the cathode and anode is such that the battery has used all its high potential lithuim, and so it starts picking on the next easiest thing, which is the copper.
This process is super ugly, as it electroplates the copper off the negative foils (anode) and electrodeposits it onto the positive foils (cathode).
PERMANENT IRREVERSABLE DAMAGE. This is super dangerous too, as the next time it is charged, that copper gets blasted back to the negative foils and lands wherever it feels like, as the anode isnt designed to deal with copper Ions. So they form big crystal stabby structures called dendrites, which at best can pierce the seperator and cause high self discharge and gassing as the electrolyte nucleates (gas builds up, the cell goes to 0V and looks like a balloon) , or at worst, the dendrite is able to get a solid connection between the cathode and anode, and this causes the cell to short internally and results in fire.
Luckily for you, Zero has an amazing BMS and pack topology that sips hardly any power from the cells in a key-off state, but you still can murder the bike by approaching 0% SOC as slowly as possible until it is at its absolute lowest SOC (state of charge) and the BMS shuts the bike off. What happens is that the bike has the smallest amount of reserve battery then, and the BMS sipping away at that small amount will eventually murder the cells over a period of several years.
Basically, the way to kill a zero the fastest is to either ride it to absolutely dead as possible, and then store it in a shed for six years, or to store it at absolutely tip top charge in direct sunlight in a super hot desert in arizona somewhere. Either way, you will still struggle to kill them before the warrantee is up.
So, to prolong your battery life, you can do the exact opposite. Store the bike in a cool place with a stable temperature at low SOC.
~20% or so is fine for S/DS (one BMS sipping on 3-5 cellboxes) or 30-40% for the FX modules (one BMS per cellbox)
When you get done flogging the crap out of your S/DS on a hot day, let it cool down for 4-6hrs before charging it (takes less time for FX modules)
Fast charging is fine, but know that around the .8C mark is the point where at normal ambient temp, you go from cooling off to heating up. If your pack is already hot from a ride thru the desert at WOT, and you fast charge, you are still going to be on a hot pack when you continue your WOT journey. Not a big deal, but you will get some extra high temp degredation. The BMS will keep you from really buggering your pack, so dont worry about it.
Hopefully this helps you all better understand what goes on "under the hood" on your batteries.
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Thanks for sharing the info.
Do you have links to data sheets of your batteries?
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I can dig them up, got hit by a car and totalled my '15 ds yesterday. So i am away from my work PC till monday.
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Great info as always Jackson! Hope you're not too sore today.
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Ouch! I hope you're not too banged up.
Thanks for the info, this is great!
Are Farasis cells available direct to consumers or only to business?
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
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Thanks for sharing the info Jackson.
I'm familiar with Lithium batteries, and pretty much do what you have suggested, however this is very specific to your cells/chemistry/morphology and will follow your advice strictly ;)
Thanks again, this is of great help for this community
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Nice bit of detail on the failure modes there - much appreciated!
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I can dig them up, got hit by a car and totalled my '15 ds yesterday. So i am away from my work PC till monday.
Ouch I hope you're ok and can ride again soon.
I hope you can still salvage some cells from the TL, somebody with your background should be able to create an super power tank in a top case or similair ;)
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Thank you for the detailed, yet entertaining information. Especially the insight into how the cells get buggered or murdered.
Heal well!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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What is the peak and continuous discharge rates of the 2016 29A cells (I understand the 2014 25A cells were 7C peak and 4C continuous)?
Thanks
PS I've attached the data sheet for the 25A cells. Would love to see the data sheet for the 29A cells
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Ouch! I hope you're not too banged up.
Thanks for the info, this is great!
Are Farasis cells available direct to consumers or only to business?
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
Farasis is still a tiny company, 35-40 in our US R&D / dist facility, and 400 in our chinese assembly plant (most are robot techs and warehousing workers)
If we follow Dow Kokams approach and sell directly to consumers, and have someone burn down an apartment complex and sue us. We could easily get sued out of existance. So at this point, we like to keep close control of our battery cells, and that means that no cunsumer sales for the time being.
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Ouch! I hope you're not too banged up.
Thanks for the info, this is great!
Are Farasis cells available direct to consumers or only to business?
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
Farasis is still a tiny company, 35-40 in our US R&D / dist facility, and 400 in our chinese assembly plant (most are robot techs and warehousing workers)
If we follow Dow Kokams approach and sell directly to consumers, and have someone burn down an apartment complex and sue us. We could easily get sued out of existance. So at this point, we like to keep close control of our battery cells, and that means that no cunsumer sales for the time being.
After I posted I found this site that appears to sell Farasis batteries... is it bogus?
http://www.cdiweb.com//PortalManufacturerCategory.aspx?ManfNo=1536&pid=-1#.VmspQqlOnqB (http://www.cdiweb.com//PortalManufacturerCategory.aspx?ManfNo=1536&pid=-1#.VmspQqlOnqB)
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
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What is the peak and continuous discharge rates of the 2016 29A cells (I understand the 2014 25A cells were 7C peak and 4C continuous)?
Thanks
PS I've attached the data sheet for the 25A cells. Would love to see the data sheet for the 29A cells
Awesome! Thanks for the datasheet scrounging!
The 29ah Cells (and others) are in the identical cell pouch size as the 25 in that datasheet.
have an awesome "layered layer" particle size spread that gives ~15% higher Cont C rate, and a fat 30% more 30s burst C rate (10C!) They also seem to have an odd capacitive effect (super low AC impedance) that gives ludicrous ~3s burst rate (not useful for motos)
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The 29ah Cells (and others) are in the identical cell pouch size as the 25 in that datasheet.
have an awesome "layered layer" particle size spread that gives ~15% higher Cont C rate, and a fat 30% more 30s burst C rate (10C!)
If I'm calculating this right (and I am), that means they could put out 1160 amps for 30 seconds. If Sevcon made a controller that would support that, we could have an SRR with 186 ft-lbs of torque.
I don't think I want to throw a leg over that bike.
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Ouch! I hope you're not too banged up.
Thanks for the info, this is great!
Are Farasis cells available direct to consumers or only to business?
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
Farasis is still a tiny company, 35-40 in our US R&D / dist facility, and 400 in our chinese assembly plant (most are robot techs and warehousing workers)
If we follow Dow Kokams approach and sell directly to consumers, and have someone burn down an apartment complex and sue us. We could easily get sued out of existance. So at this point, we like to keep close control of our battery cells, and that means that no cunsumer sales for the time being.
After I posted I found this site that appears to sell Farasis batteries... is it bogus?
http://www.cdiweb.com//PortalManufacturerCategory.aspx?ManfNo=1536&pid=-1#.VmspQqlOnqB (http://www.cdiweb.com//PortalManufacturerCategory.aspx?ManfNo=1536&pid=-1#.VmspQqlOnqB)
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
To be conpletely honest, I do not know what CTC battery co. Is exactly, I know Farasis owns them, and that we have some CTC batteries in our lab for test and eval right now. Most of those use our 18650 cells (which are nothing special TBH) our power 18650 cells arent that great, and our energy 18650s suck. We do have a high cycle life (>2K) 2.0ah 18650 that goes in a ton of china EVs.
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Ouch! I hope you're not too banged up.
Thanks for the info, this is great!
Are Farasis cells available direct to consumers or only to business?
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
Farasis is still a tiny company, 35-40 in our US R&D / dist facility, and 400 in our chinese assembly plant (most are robot techs and warehousing workers)
If we follow Dow Kokams approach and sell directly to consumers, and have someone burn down an apartment complex and sue us. We could easily get sued out of existance. So at this point, we like to keep close control of our battery cells, and that means that no cunsumer sales for the time being.
After I posted I found this site that appears to sell Farasis batteries... is it bogus?
http://www.cdiweb.com//PortalManufacturerCategory.aspx?ManfNo=1536&pid=-1#.VmspQqlOnqB (http://www.cdiweb.com//PortalManufacturerCategory.aspx?ManfNo=1536&pid=-1#.VmspQqlOnqB)
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
To be conpletely honest, I do not know what CTC battery co. Is exactly, I know Farasis owns them, and that we have some CTC batteries in our lab for test and eval right now. Most of those use our 18650 cells (which are nothing special TBH) our power 18650 cells arent that great, and our energy 18650s suck. We do have a high cycle life (>2K) 2.0ah 18650 that goes in a ton of china EVs.
Cool...thanks for the honest information!
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
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Great info Jackson!
My '15 DS is usually resting with Soc between 20% - 30% at 5 to 8 degrees Celsius (wintertime)
Got that info mainly from battery university.com. So happy to read now i'm doing the 'right' thing.
Any idea why Zero tells us to plug the bike in when not using it, especially when nog using it for longer times and when it's (very) cold?
Hope you are not banged up to bad...
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Awsome info and summary Farfle!
Thanks for taking tim eto do that and so help community to better understand lithium cells! ;)
I did not know that you work for Farasis. that's great!
btw i Wonder how Zero will deal with cell form factor and redesign of frame over the years. Sometime new battery mean different shape and so require different battery case.. then different frame .. all that have a cost.
Fortunatly Zero can get the 29Ah new cells that match the 25Ah dimensions.
I'm sure that i few years Zero will get so important in the market that they will be able to ask for custom cells form factor..
Doc
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Thank you very much for the info Farfle. I hope you heal fast and well I hate to hear anybody being in a crash. I was going to ask some of these very questions about the cells and you wonderfully explained the do's and dont's from the very source. Thank you again for taking the time to write the post.
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Can someone post a picture of what the battery looks like with the case off and what the cells look like.
There were some articles recently of a Zero battery engineer criticizing Tesla's cylindrical cell batteries and the writer was fanning the flames with a catchy headline 'Tesla can learn a thing or two about battery design from Zero.' Interesting.
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Store the bike in a cool place with a stable temperature at low SOC.
Any idea why Zero tells us to plug the bike in when not using it, especially when not using it for longer times and when it's (very) cold?
This is an interesting contradiction - I wonder if someone from Zero can explain. Or someone close to Zero (Terry?!)
I thought that the cell-balancing portion of the charge cycle occurs at the very end, when the voltage is at the maximum. This would explain Zero's recommendation to just leave the bike plugged in, but I'm curious about this new information. Wouldn't the cells become unbalanced if the bike is stored at a low SOC?
I ride year-round, so my bike ('15 SR) won't be "in storage", but I'm still curious.
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Store the bike in a cool place with a stable temperature at low SOC.
Any idea why Zero tells us to plug the bike in when not using it, especially when not using it for longer times and when it's (very) cold?
This is an interesting contradiction - I wonder if someone from Zero can explain. Or someone close to Zero (Terry?!)
I thought that the cell-balancing portion of the charge cycle occurs at the very end, when the voltage is at the maximum. This would explain Zero's recommendation to just leave the bike plugged in, but I'm curious about this new information. Wouldn't the cells become unbalanced if the bike is stored at a low SOC?
I ride year-round, so my bike ('15 SR) won't be "in storage", but I'm still curious.
I believe you first quote is form terry? going off that let me explain why he and many others do it that way. I do too...
The first part about leaving the bike at a 50% state of charge the bike battery is then under much less stress to stay at that lower voltage. If you charge to 100% which is necessary at some time to balance batteries etc it only has to be done once in a while. When you are storing the bike for long periods a few months, it would be wise to store the bike at 50-65 SOC. This way when your battery sags after a few months or however long, you will only loose some juice/power (volts/amps) from SOC rather than loosing a tiny amount of total capacity at full charge. When you charge to 100% and leave it there when the batter looses lets just say 1% off the top after you left it for a year, once you drain and use the bike again you will most likely only be able to charge to 99% and you might loose that extra little bit. Will you really notice? hard to say, from one bike to the next I cant tell..... when you are rallying hard you wont notice, if you were to put a improperly stored battery and a properly stored battery against each other in a long range test you might be able to see a light difference but again, its basically negligible.
Another example of how the difference is, on a 2013 fx if I ride at 35 mph the first battery bar will be gone in less than 1-3 miles, more so on batteries that have been raced in go karts :o :o :o ;D
as far as the second part when i finish posting this ill post a picture of a 2010 zero battery here:
(space saved for pic)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/1B79DC5A-42E3-48BD-8FF8-2BDEA0D0D440_zpsmdzgeoeo.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/1B79DC5A-42E3-48BD-8FF8-2BDEA0D0D440_zpsmdzgeoeo.jpg.html)
The 2013 cells and up are a pouch style battery instead of a cylinder so there is no room in between the cells like in the picture above, and similarly the Tesla battery cells are similar size. A huge advantage to the Tesla cell box while being less dense per area; they have the ability to cool the batteries with cooling running in between them, something zeros do not.
Pouch cell pics coming:
You can see the pouch cell right above the cylindrical cells
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/56C64105-9D44-40D9-A0A6-B1C549A48CBE_zps6vedywoq.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/56C64105-9D44-40D9-A0A6-B1C549A48CBE_zps6vedywoq.png.html)
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Thanks Farfle, I found your notes very interesting indeed. If you have the time, would you mind reading this topic I started some time ago please? Any comments on it would be greatly appreciated.
Lithium Ion (Li-ion) Batteries used in Zero Motorcyles - all you need to know
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4280
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it would be wise to store the bike at 50-65 SOC
Understood - again - just curious why Zero is recommending the opposite - to leave the bike plugged-in (which I've been doing).
My Nissan Leaf owner's manual recommended to charge the batteries to 80% (instead of 100%) for battery health/longetivity - which I did for daily charging. Ironically, despite following their recommendations our Leaf battery capacity decreased by 25% in just three years (22K miles).
My LiFePo pack in my Vectrix is 5 yrs old and doesn't seem to have lost any capacity regardless of how I charge the thing.
I know the Li-ion chemistries are different - seems that it's difficult to pin down the best charging strategy.
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80% is probably still fine
Zero advises to leave them on the charger because like I said even if you loose that tiny bit of capacitance you probably won't notice and the battery will balance occasionally, which is safer than letting it potentially letting it sit until it goes bad
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I can think of a couple of reasons Zero's advice is to leave the bike plugged in:
It's the simplest advice to give.
It gets people into the habit of plugging in, thus reducing the chance of them finishing a ride at a low state of charge and then not using it for months.
They've calculated that the battery pack will still have well over 80% health after 5 years even if left plugged in all the time.
Leaving the bike plugged in is the most convenient thing to do. People like convenience and Zero wants happy customers. If they suggested standing the bikes at 40-50% SoC, inevitably people forget and get on a bike with half a tank. It might not be enough juice to get them to their destination, or it might shorten the trip out they planned. Either way they'll be pissed off and frustrated.
It's unlikely that many people will own their zero for more than a couple of years and they might only suffer a 5% drop in battery health in that time. They either won't notice it or it won't make much of a difference to them.
For long term owners, improvements in battery technology will result in nominal capacity increasing 50-60% during five years. The price is likely to drop too. Range is unlikely to be an issue for those owners, but they might consider a new battery pack rather than a whole new bike.
Five years is a long time for Zero to develop new technologies, integrate new features and improve the product. The original bike might be kept as a runaround or given to a family member whilst a new model is bought for main use.
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Hey Farfle I enjoyed reading your post. I don't have much free time because of my 2yo boy is taking most of it, so I only managed to drive 3000 km since November 2013. So my S is spending most of its time in a cool garage plugged in. Should I try to unplug it ?
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Did you "fast-charge" the Leaf or drive/store it in a hot climate? I've read stories like yours mainly in hot sunny places and usually combined with some form of fast charging. Add running it to near 0 at each charge, and that is even worse...
As for the Zero advice to keep it plugged-in, as MostlyBonkers mentioned, that's probably because most people would not follow a more complicated procedure or won't buy in the first place if they thought they'd be harming the batteries if kept topped-up. Plus, it's a convenience thing - have the bike ready any time.
On my Vectrix with Nissan Leaf cells I tend to follow the advice here - charge it to "full", ride it, keep it at less than 50% for the winter. I just check the voltage occasionally - it barely changes over the course of several months. If the Zeros are indeed draining the batteries faster when not in use, but if they are not significantly disbalancing themselves in the process, I'd just say one should partially charge from time to time but still keep around half-charged or a bit less. If, however, the BMS in the Zero is poorly designed to disbalance the bike when not in use, then topping-up to full and equalizing in the process might be needed. One should be able to tell through the Zero app, no?
it would be wise to store the bike at 50-65 SOC
Understood - again - just curious why Zero is recommending the opposite - to leave the bike plugged-in (which I've been doing).
My Nissan Leaf owner's manual recommended to charge the batteries to 80% (instead of 100%) for battery health/longetivity - which I did for daily charging. Ironically, despite following their recommendations our Leaf battery capacity decreased by 25% in just three years (22K miles).
My LiFePo pack in my Vectrix is 5 yrs old and doesn't seem to have lost any capacity regardless of how I charge the thing.
I know the Li-ion chemistries are different - seems that it's difficult to pin down the best charging strategy.
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It's unlikely that many people will own their zero for more than a couple of years and they might only suffer a 5% drop in battery health in that time.
I'm coming up on two years now (end of January), and 22,000 miles so far, and I've had an increase in capacity. My commute is identical every day, and I know exactly how many percent it requires to get to several milestones both coming and going, and the battery capacity has clearly increased by at least a couple of percent. The seasonal variation (cold weather vs hot weather) is very clear, but so is the small increase in capacity. Even on the weekend, my bike is plugged in every night, all night.
I know Terry's had pretty much the same experience, and I believe Ben will tell a very similar story.
I understand that what farfle is saying comes right from the horse's mouth, and far from denying what he's saying, I just want to add some real-world perspective. I'm sure he's right that there's some deterioration at highest cell voltage, but it's not worth talking about. These are rugged cells and capacity loss may be measurable in a laboratory, but it's utterly imperceptible in the real world. The other considerations MostlyBonkers did a good job of enumerating far outweigh a possible microscopic capacity loss caused by leaving the cells topped off all the time.
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Well if Doug's experience doesn't put a few minds at rest, I don't know what will!
For those of us that can't live with ourselves unless we're doing our absolute best to optimise everything, I recommend therapy.
Therapy is expensive though, so perhaps one of those timers? Especially when doing a regular commute. You'd soon know how much time to charge to 40% when you get home and you'd program an extra charge to top off your battery early in the morning. That way you'd leave it plugged in all the time but also ensure it spends most of it's standing time at 40-50% SoC. A seven day programmable timer would cover you for the weekend, until you wake up one Sunday morning and fancy an unscheduled ride, only to find you've got no juice. You'd also have to remember to keep an eye on cell balance via the app and leave the bike with power for a long weekend every few months to allow the BMS to do its job.
On reflection, I think Zero's advice has one very important aim that I've only just had a light bulb moment about:
The elimination of charging anxiety!
They've done their best to eliminate range anxiety by selling a bike that doesn't pretend to be anything more than a short hop/commuter bike. When fast charging has matured I'm sure they'll work on a tourer.
To Zero's credit, they have the wisdom to realise that anxiety kills fun and the pleasure of ownership. When reading Zero's claims that the battery is good for 300,000km+ until it gets down to 80% health I did originally think that it was sorted. Why worry when Zero can make claims like that and at the same time advise to leave the bike plugged in?
Having read Doug's last post, I can't help wondering if I've spent far too much time pondering this whole subject.
If anyone can come forward and tell us a story of how they've lost significant capacity over a few years, like oobflyer and his leaf, then please do. Otherwise, on the strength of real world experience, advice from the manufacturer and in the best interests of your mental health, I think we can all put this one to bed:
Set it, forget it, have fun.
Rinse and repeat so many times your hair will fall out before your battery dies.
Life's too short to waste time thinking and worrying about it. It won't make a material difference. Trying to extend the life of your battery will only shorten your own. On this one, be dumb and be happy. [emoji4]
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My 2014 Zero S is now almost two years old. I always keep it fully charged and plugged into the wall outlet whenever I am not riding it. In fact, I plug the bike in as soon as I arrive home after a ride. According to the Zero app, I have exactly the same kWh capacity in my pack as it when it was new: 13.34 kWh. :)
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For those of us that can't live with ourselves unless we're doing our absolute best to optimise everything, I recommend therapy.
Xanax also helps ;-)
The elimination of charging anxiety!
This seems like the most logical explanation.
Did you "fast-charge" the Leaf or drive/store it in a hot climate?
No - I babied the thing. I had a three year lease - just dropped it off at the Nissan dealer last month. I did fast-charge (ChaDeMo), but rarely - probably no more than a dozen times in three years. The battery temperature gauge never read 'hot'. It's a mystery to me, but i guess the decision to lease vs. purchase was the right one :-)
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My 2014 Zero S is now almost two years old. I always keep it fully charged and plugged into the wall outlet whenever I am not riding it. In fact, I plug the bike in as soon as I arrive home after a ride.
+1 pretty much, for both my '14 FX's; I don't usually leave them plugged in overnight, but always for at least 8 hours after riding until balancing activity slows to a crawl.
After over a year of having both bikes nearly always ready to go at a moment's notice, I can't imagine doing anything different.
Ray
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OK so after ready all the responses, here is a question. If I commute 5 days a week and one way is 20% (so a round trip is 40%) what is best for battery longevity?
given I have a timer and it starts charging at 2am.
A) charge to 100% on Monday morning, ride to work (sits at 80% for about 8 hrs) ride home (sits as 60% for about 7 hrs), charge to 100% (sits at 100% for about 3 hrs) and repeat the cycle every day
B) as above except charge every second day, which means the battery goes down to 20% every second day. I.e. the SOC goes from 100% to 80% to 60% to 40% to 20% then back to 100% over 2 day cycle.
Generally with lithium batteries it is said that to take the battery down to 20% makes it loose cycles more than taking it down to 60% twice. I.e if I was to get 2000 cycles by taking it down to 20% then I would NOT get 4000 cycles at 60% but maybe 4500 by only going to 60%.
So I am surprised that farfle said to store it at 20%
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I rarely run my pack below 50% and (like I said) the bike stays plugged in 24/7. For me, having a full battery pack when I ride off and not having to worry about range anxiety is all I really want. Where I usually ride there are typically no places to recharge so I am more interested in completing my ride and getting home than trying to (theoretically) keep my battery pack happy. :)
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If you ride you bike everyday plug it in everyday, this whole conversation IMO only really relates to letting bike sit for weeks to months at a time
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I don't have an electric motorcycle yet, but my experience with my 2014 Nissan Leaf is nothing like oobflyer's. I've been driving it for about 20 months and over 17,500 miles now. I haven't lost a single 'bar' on the charging gauge. Possibly I've lost a little bit because in the second summer (I'm in Atlanta) I noticed the estimated range after charging was typically 94 miles instead of the 96 of it's first summer, but then again I was also having trouble with a tire that kept leaking down all summer, so this may have been due to some extra rolling resistance. I typically charge it fully at 110 each night, unless the SOC is over 80% when I get home. That's usually on the weekend, since I commute about 37 miles roundtrip on weekdays. SOC when I get home is typically about 45% in the summer. Winters are harder to judge since temperature affects both the charge rate and range. When temps get low enough (only for a few weeks), I often don't get back up to 100% overnight, lose ground each night, and need to use the level 2 charging at the office on Friday to get caught back home Friday night! The only other time I use level 2 or CHADEMO charging is the rare occasion when I do significantly more miles in a day than normal.
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I wish I could find it again, but I clearly recall a comment Robert Llewellyn made during one of his fully charged show YouTube videos. He said he had a friend with a leaf who only ever used fast DC charging and had noticed no deterioration in range after over 40,000 miles. I don't know what period that was over. He might be a taxi driver or courier that does that kind of mileage in a year.
Perhaps oobflyer's leaf suffered a few cell failures in the battery pack. I imagine the BMS would have disabled them and that would explain the reduced performance. Just guessing though.
Going back a few months I remember the inspiration for the article on lithium ion batteries was a discussion about storage during the winter months. As Cortez noted, this whole discussion centres around that. If you aren't going to use your bike for months then there is an argument for storing it at 40-50% and checking it every few weeks.
I think it's difficult to let go of the idea that you could extend the life of the battery a little by keeping it at a lower SoC as much as possible. I suffer with that problem and it seems that no matter how much evidence there to prove it isn't worth the bother, that information sticks to some minds like Velcro.
By all means use timers, complicated charging routines, reminders on your phone to flick a switch, plan your journeys etc. Whatever works for you to reduce that anxiety.
My recommendation and this applies to me too, is to work on that anxiety because it is irrational. It's like a form of OCD. Let's call it OCCD: Obsessive compulsive charging disorder!
You may be more prone to anxiety than most people, I know I am. Cognitive Behavior Therapy can help some people but for many it's little more than a sticking plaster. [emoji4]
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When I go for a ride I come home and plug it in. When the charge light goes solid and the click clack starts I unplug it. It may stay plugged in over night some but I ride it at least a few miles every week so it's getting some charge. I just don't like the idea of the on board chargers always being on, maybe i just don't know enough about them and I see the amps go way down to .24 but still seems like they could use a rest. Also here in the southeast we get the popup thunderstorms and I don't want it fried by a lightning surge. I do keep it at full SOC in my garage I hope that doesn't hurt it.
On the Zero webpage for 2013 it shows battery life till 80% to be 284000 miles (city) Which city range is showing 126 miles on the 11.4kWh.
By my calculations that comes out to 2253 charge cycles.
Now 2253 cycles times the 76 miles range for the 55MPH speed and you get 171,301 miles to 80%
Now does that figure in just full charge and discharge or a cumulative effect of charging 40% and 60% to equal a full charge.
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You nailed it…I would definitely not suggest keeping the bike plugged. Besides the fact that you "throw away" Kw's because of the residual charging, you also have the risk of having a charger problem for any further reasons…
In my experience keeping the bike at around 30% is very healthy, for the battery pack itself, charger, as well as for your pocket (if you know what I mean)
Partial charges do not account as full cycle charges, but as partial ones, 60+40 is 100%= 1 cycle
One of the main issues to get practical data is that mostly of the forum guys -including myself- have not got closed to a significant amount of charging cycles, so getting good information about loosing capacity has happened in very little cases (a lot of them because of defective cells)
We also need to bear in mind that our Zero friends never "offer" to us 100% real battery capacity, which is another factor that extends battery life (they know what they do)…When we say "I have got 5% battery left" we are probably at around 15-17% as the BMS is programed to not use 100% battery capacity…but you guys know this...
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I'm not sure I've completely understood your last paragraph New2. I think those figures are based on full charge cycles though. I don't know how much testing zero have done or how they reached those figures. It gets more complicated when you throw in different charging regimes. Good question though. If you're referring to how the Prius only lives between the 40-60% state of charge, then it could be very relevant. It would be very deceptive of zero to do that though because it wouldn't represent a real world use-case.
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Oh, and I take Zero's figures with a pinch of salt. Even if you halve them, they are still in the region of 80-100,000 miles before hitting 80% health. More than enough for most and that's being extremely conservative.
It is amazing how much anxiety people feel on this subject, myself included.
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It is amazing how much anxiety people feel on this subject, myself included.
Yes, from my perspective, I wish everyone would stop overanalyzing this topic. The person with enough miles to say something is Terry and he's said his piece. I am amazed at how much skepticism there is here. Just ride the damn thing, and plug it in. Be happy and get your money's worth out of it (not penny-wise and pound-foolish).
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I believe the Brammo Empulse also has Farasis cells.
Would Farfle's advice apply equally or would the BMS of the Brammo require a different approach?
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I can think of a couple of reasons Zero's advice is to leave the bike plugged in:
It's the simplest advice to give.
It gets people into the habit of plugging in, thus reducing the chance of them finishing a ride at a low state of charge and then not using it for months.
They've calculated that the battery pack will still have well over 80% health after 5 years even if left plugged in all the time.
Leaving the bike plugged in is the most convenient thing to do. People like convenience and Zero wants happy customers. If they suggested standing the bikes at 40-50% SoC, inevitably people forget and get on a bike with half a tank. It might not be enough juice to get them to their destination, or it might shorten the trip out they planned. Either way they'll be pissed off and frustrated.
It's unlikely that many people will own their zero for more than a couple of years and they might only suffer a 5% drop in battery health in that time. They either won't notice it or it won't make much of a difference to them.
For long term owners, improvements in battery technology will result in nominal capacity increasing 50-60% during five years. The price is likely to drop too. Range is unlikely to be an issue for those owners, but they might consider a new battery pack rather than a whole new bike.
Five years is a long time for Zero to develop new technologies, integrate new features and improve the product. The original bike might be kept as a runaround or given to a family member whilst a new model is bought for main use.
This is exactly correct. It is simple, and you can't really screw it up.
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Can someone post a picture of what the battery looks like with the case off and what the cells look like.
There were some articles recently of a Zero battery engineer criticizing Tesla's cylindrical cell batteries and the writer was fanning the flames with a catchy headline 'Tesla can learn a thing or two about battery design from Zero.' Interesting.
I can post a picture of the cells, that is easy. But the packaging and interconnects in a zero module are not ours to share, so sadly I cannot post a picture of that without offending some folks.
and yes, tesla knows the cylindrical format is not optimal for the most energy in a smallest lightest box, but compared to pouch cells, you can get away with murder on packaging cylindricals. They traded a direct hit to the Whr/L and Whr/Kg stats on their pack for a lower production fallout and lower initial R&D costs. Unlike on a motorcycle, it is easier to just make the box bigger on a car.
Zero (Luke) did it the hard way, and they found a novel way to make pouch cells work, and are reaping the benefits of having 1/8th the capacity of a Tesla in 1/12th the volume and for 1/20th the weight. Nissan, GM and all the other EV manufacturers using pouches have spent more than zero has ever spent or earned by orders of magnitude and still have not done it in a way that works in the real world, so kudos to them.
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Zero (Luke) did it the hard way, and they found a novel way to make pouch cells work...
In his own words...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZg237IUdFk
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZg237IUdFk)
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They traded a direct hit to the Whr/L and Whr/Kg stats on their pack for a lower production fallout and lower initial R&D costs. Unlike on a motorcycle, it is easier to just make the box bigger on a car.
I'd add one other point, I don't know how true it is, but my understanding is a big part of the reason Tesla went with 18650 cells is that Panasonic had a huge surplus of them, so Tesla got them dirt cheap when they were just starting out. Now they're committed to them.
I also wonder if it's easier to water-cool a battery pack made up of cylindrical cells rather than pouch cells? I know water-stabilizing the battery temperatures is a big part of Tesla's "secret sauce".
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It is amazing how much anxiety people feel on this subject, myself included.
Yes, from my perspective, I wish everyone would stop overanalyzing this topic. The person with enough miles to say something is Terry and he's said his piece. I am amazed at how much skepticism there is here. Just ride the damn thing, and plug it in. Be happy and get your money's worth out of it (not penny-wise and pound-foolish).
I think folks are struggling with Zero's claims of battery longevity and their own personal experience of owning mobile phones and laptops that have had it after two or three years of use. There is conflicting information too; on one hand the advice being to keep the bike plugged in and on the other that maintaining a high SoC reduces service life. Despite my best efforts at putting peoples' minds to rest and those of others with real world experience, we keep going on and on. The fact that it's not easy to understand the chemistry doesn't help either.
What are the first questions you always get asked about electric vehicles?
What's the range?
How long does it take to charge?
How long does the battery last before you have to replace it?
We know the answers to the first two. I fear that only personal experience will satisfy people on that last question. When a few Zeros have reached ten years old and have a hundred thousand miles on the clock, people will listen to the results. Until then, let's have some faith in the engineers and stop obsessing. Look at how well the Toyota Prius has lasted!
Automotive grade batteries are designed to last as long as the vehicles they are used in. They are different beasts to phones and laptops. End of story. We've done this to death now. Goodnight and thank you all. [emoji4]
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http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf (http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf)
Interesting info about li-ion cell.
Anyone have Farasis 27Ah and 29Ah cell data sheets?
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http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf (http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf)
Interesting info about li-ion cell.
Anyone have Farasis 27Ah and 29Ah cell data sheets?
+1
Anyone have a data sheet for 2015 Farasis 27Ah cells?
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http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf (http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf)
Interesting info about li-ion cell.
Anyone have Farasis 27Ah and 29Ah cell data sheets?
+1
Anyone have a data sheet for 2015 Farasis 27Ah cells?
I wish. The last I heard (mid/late 2016), they haven't had time to prepare one for any of the newer cells.
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RE: Data sheet for the 27Ah cells - The chemistry is the same as the 25Ah cells. The gain in capacity came from more space-efficient packaging.
RE: Cycles to 80% - The Farasis data sheet references 1,000 cycles to 80% capacity, but this data reflects charging to peak voltage and more complete discharge. I think this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but Zero programs the BMS to limit charging to a narrower range (i.e. lower upper limit, higher lower limit). Not pushing the cells to their full upper/lower limits helps longevity.
My advice FWIW -- both in an official capacity as an employee at Zero, as well as your average enthusiast -- is to follow the guidelines in the Zero owner's manual, and enjoy riding.
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Hello,
In this topic, you speak about 25Ah, 27Ah, 29Ah battery packs.
I have got a Zero FXS, model 2016, with 28Ah packs (see pictures here: https://goo.gl/FbjZo6).
My FXS is the 11 kW version sold in France.
Does it uses different batteries? Can I get some specifications about these packs?
Regards,
Gerard (from Marseille, France)
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Hello,
In this topic, you speak about 25Ah, 27Ah, 29Ah battery packs.
I have got a Zero FXS, model 2016, with 28Ah packs (see pictures here: https://goo.gl/FbjZo6).
My FXS is the 11 kW version sold in France.
Does it uses different batteries? Can I get some specifications about these packs?
Regards,
Gerard (from Marseille, France)
Those 3.3 battery packs look like the same ones in my US FX. US 2016 FX is rated at 33kW. (Edit: 15kW continuous, I see, not really that much difference) Same batteries, I think, euro version is just power limited to comply with local laws. Wouldn't surprise me if someone with the know how could "hack" it.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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Yes, there are few differences with the standard FXS version.
The FXS 11kW sold in France is rated at 33kW peak, but 11kW continuous. Its features are given on page 6 of this document:
http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2016/press-kits/2016-11kw-zero-press-kit-fr-e.pdf (http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2016/press-kits/2016-11kw-zero-press-kit-fr-e.pdf)
As far as I know (from what I have read), the difference comes from a lower temperature limit for the motor, and the only limitation is the sustained max speed limited to 116 km/h (72 mph), and the peak max speed at 130 km/h (81 mph). That is pretty enough for my use.
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Yes, there are few differences with the standard FXS version.
The FXS 11kW sold in France is rated at 33kW peak, but 11kW continuous. Its features are given on page 6 of this document:
http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2016/press-kits/2016-11kw-zero-press-kit-fr-e.pdf (http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2016/press-kits/2016-11kw-zero-press-kit-fr-e.pdf)
A great advantage to electric, you can make one bike model to comply with different license classes just by varying the programming.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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Are you guys making assumptions about "different programming" for Euro vs. US spec or know for sure? I recall another thread for the S/DS/R models, where Zero confirmed the bikes are identical and the diff. in specs are due to how the different countries measure or define the power spec.
Similarly, different fuel economy ratings in US, Japan, and Europe for the same vehicles are usually due to the different test conditions they are subjected to...
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I think the US and Euro bikes are identical, it's just the rules about how things are measured that give different numbers.
Some of the different vehicle configurations for different markets are due to emissions, and I think we have that covered!
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Are you guys making assumptions about "different programming" for Euro vs. US spec or know for sure? I recall another thread for the S/DS/R models, where Zero confirmed the bikes are identical and the diff. in specs are due to how the different countries measure or define the power spec.
Similarly, different fuel economy ratings in US, Japan, and Europe for the same vehicles are usually due to the different test conditions they are subjected to...
The normal bikes are the same. But a lot of countries here in the EU have power restrictions for the youngest of riders which on a Zero you can implement with a simple firmware update.
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That's different.
Are you guys making assumptions about "different programming" for Euro vs. US spec or know for sure? I recall another thread for the S/DS/R models, where Zero confirmed the bikes are identical and the diff. in specs are due to how the different countries measure or define the power spec.
Similarly, different fuel economy ratings in US, Japan, and Europe for the same vehicles are usually due to the different test conditions they are subjected to...
The normal bikes are the same. But a lot of countries here in the EU have power restrictions for the youngest of riders which on a Zero you can implement with a simple firmware update.
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The normal bikes are the same. But a lot of countries here in the EU have power restrictions for the youngest of riders which on a Zero you can implement with a simple firmware update.
Hence the "special" 11kW models. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/11kw
(C'mon everybody, read the brochure, I Googled it so you don't have to.)
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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I'm just confirming the reason why Zero has a limited model. Why are we even talking about this in a cell thread.
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I'll note something relevant: Farasis' web site is now redesigned, and the landing page opens with a video of a Zero now: http://www.farasis.com/ (http://www.farasis.com/)
And they have a particular (but kind of sparse) page on their cells and modules: http://www.farasis.com/solutions/cells/ (http://www.farasis.com/solutions/cells/)
I can't find a link to the spec sheets, any more, though. I have a copy and know the URL at least.
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I've updated the relevant wiki sections:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Cells (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Cells)
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Cell_Arrangement (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Cell_Arrangement)
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can i assume that an srf battery that sat totally discharged at the dealer for 13 months might still be good
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can i assume that an srf battery that sat totally discharged at the dealer for 13 months might still be good
Good for what?
Maybe a small boat anchor.
Lithium ion battery's can’t survive below a certain SOC (State Of Charge) so sounds like that battery is scrap.
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well if you read the original post by the farasis engineer , you would have a hard time ruining it witin the 5 year warranty period
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well if you read the original post by the farasis engineer , you would have a hard time ruining it witin the 5 year warranty period
You asked about a “totally discharged” battery whereas the OP was referencing a battery with “Super low voltage”.
The OP claims that the battery can exist in this low voltage state for 6 yrs (72 months).
The battery you are referring to has sat for 18% of that time so has likely suffered measurable damage.
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What does 'totally discharged' mean. 95 volts is empty, but 0 volts is dead dead totally deadified dead. What is the voltage of the pack in question?
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Per Zero guidance, a battery can be recovered if the voltage is at or above 60V and each cell is above their cutoff voltage. Normal pack range is about 90V to 116V. The bike/battery will still accept charge on a regular charger. Below that, irreversible/super damaging dendrite growth will occur and the battery is scrap. Note I really wouldn't recommend actually letting it drain that low, as its still likely to negatively impact range/performance
95V -> 60V without any load should take a long time, so 6 years sounds possible.
@MVetter is right, what is totally discharged? If it's a used battery taken out of a bike, we really rarely do that unless they're scrap or battery performance is less than 80% normal. You'd want to get pack voltage and each cell voltage(If a cell is too low, the battery is dead, regardless of pack voltage) If it's a new battery sitting around, no way it would normally deplete itself in that timeframe.
I'd be skeptical, depending on battery characteristics and reason for removal.
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Right, unless there's something egregiously wrong like a short or a parasitic drain. Case in point I've got a monolith on a DSR outside that had a parasitic drain and it's down to 9.6vdc. I'm going to drop it off at Zero HQ for recycling next time I'm up there.
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If you can get the logs from the bike, you could probably check some history of the battery pack.
I don't know how the logs look like on a SR/F, but I attach some lines of my FXS logs.
I guess that on a "Discharge level" line (I take here the example of line 09403):
AH is the depletion of the pack. My packs should have around 26 Ah of capacity (FXS 2016 with two 3.3 kWh packs). Consequently the value of AH (12 Ah) agrees with the SOC (52%).
L stands for the voltage of the lower cell, ie 3648 mV
H stands for the voltage of the upper cell, ie 3654 mV
What is l ? It seems often close to L in my logs, but I am not able to guess what it is...
B stands for the unbalance, B = H - L = 6 mV
PT is probably the Pack Temperature, 19°C
BT is probably another temperature, which one?...
PV is the Pack Voltage, 102215 mV
Since there are 28 cells in this pack, the average voltage of a cell should be 102215 / 28 = 3650.5 mV
That fits perfectly with the values of L and H.
If the logs of the SR/F are similar to mine, from the logs, you could probably be able to check some history of the bike, get the voltage of the pack along the previous months, and the voltage of the lower cell.
You should try to get them as soon as possible, since when the memory is full, the older data of the log are erased, and replaced by the new data.
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bike had minor accident which damaged the bms ,but absolutly no damage to battery case itself,
dealer and zero reps decided it would be in there best interest to totally drain the battery,
so now it appears they destroyed a battery that only needed a bms board,
and since the bike had an accident they wont warranty anything
this is a 2020 srf
pretty sad and terrible customer service
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i'm sorry, I know that sucks.
Discharging a potentially compromised or scrap battery before storage/recycling is what you are supposed to do to reduce the likelihood and ferocity of a fire. I'm not sure there are any youtube videos that show a Zero on fire, but if they go up they will reduce the bike to a pile of slag, and there's not much that can be done but wait for it to burn out. Obviously I have no insight into whether that should have been done for your case.
Nobody's auto/moto warranty covers accidents, can't fault Zero for that. Wouldn't your insurance be responsible for either the repair cost or totaling out the bike? Any dealer that's boneheaded enough to sell/give you your battery that Zero determined to be a fire hazard is asking to be sued out of existence when it hurts you/burns your house down.
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there is not a scratch or dent or crack anwhere on the battery case or housing,
cant help but think they would have simply replaced the bms board if it was onn their nickel ,
could have at least consulted me before destroying my battery