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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Doctorbass on October 19, 2015, 11:09:42 AM
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It is official, my old 2012 ZF9 is now using the SR size 6 controller as well as the 75-7 motor of all 2013+ 8)... Oh.. and with boostpack to bring it to ZF15! ;)
ONe of the most complicated part was to rebuild the DCF file for the controller that match all these parameters together from other DCf files from the 2014 SR, 2012 S with 75-7 motor.
I have used Winmerge and isolated every single variable that a reuncommon to both files from the 2014 SR and 2012 S 75-7.
for exemple, setting the new torque to 180Nm, new max current 660A insteaf of 420, etc
I have preserved all voltage parameters from the 2012 S file to keep all compatible settings that are made for the 66V battery of teh 2012 and have transfered all parametres like torque, current, gain, torque curves etc...
After couple hours i finaly got the file and tested it.... and IT WORKED !! 8).. Well with the bike on the stand the rear wheel spin no prob and is very fast!!!.. but not tested yet on the road, it's 1am now and it's -3 degree outdoor with ice on road at some place!!! :o...
I'm watching carefully mother nature predictions so i can test it fully!
btw just by holding the rear brake to apply torque i twisted teh throttle and saw 35.5kW already and was not full torqu and speed yet !! and battery was at 66V...
I call this encouraging!!!! 8)
I have attached it for you guys!
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here it is!
Doc
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Excellent work!
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And now ... time for a clutch engine "foot brake" ;) lol Once you use one you won't want to go back ...
If you are interested find the thread or two here talking about setting it up and if you need more assistance just PM me and I can answer any questions you might have :D
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Great , thanks for the offer Burton!
I think i saw these post. Arlo also built one using strain gauge on the brake handle.
Doc
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I love watching people hack bikes :)
Good work!!!
Did you end up replacing the harness and:or repopulate sevcon plug and/ or your 2012 had the size 2 or 4 from the beginning?
Did you then use a MY 13plus bms?
I would think you went to MY 14. But awaiting new response!!!
Like I said good work!!!! No too many people decided sevcon to re-parameter for a different bike!!!
So I take it you now have a badass SR!!!! Now that you have a zf15 turn the controller up lol (shame your not at the 100v at zf15). 100+ foot lbs and some serious go would be coming your way
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Great Job Doc! was there ever a doubt? I'm in YUL now this morning -5 So you better get it out soon winter is here...LOL Halifax was still above 0 this morning...
Cheers Jerry
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Good job, great project!
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I love watching people hack bikes :)
Good work!!!
Did you end up replacing the harness and:or repopulate sevcon plug and/ or your 2012 had the size 2 or 4 from the beginning?
Did you then use a MY 13plus bms?
I would think you went to MY 14. But awaiting new response!!!
Like I said good work!!!! No too many people decided sevcon to re-parameter for a different bike!!!
So I take it you now have a badass SR!!!! Now that you have a zf15 turn the controller up lol (shame your not at the 100v at zf15). 100+ foot lbs and some serious go would be coming your way
No need to replace the harness as i'm still using the 2012 battery of 66V and the stock MBB and BMS too. I only needed to swap the IN/COS encoder wires due to the motor installed on the right on the 2012 and not on the left so it have to spin backward.
The actual 6p 120Ah of eig cells can take burst of 10C and continuous 5C witch is 600 Acontinuous and 1200A burst. so what really limit is the fuse!.. it is an internal 425A i the battery an dthe new size 6 also have a 425A fuse. The old size 4 controller it had a 355A fuse.
Doc
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Btw thanks for all apprecaitions guys!. i'm very impatient to try it on the road.. I just need a great weather!
Doc
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We may be able to go on a bit of a road trip together next summer because I'll have a diginow super charger! Looking forward to your ride reports.
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We may be able to go on a bit of a road trip together next summer because I'll have a diginow super charger! Looking forward to your ride reports.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey ben, excellent new!.. Ah next summer!!.. so many snow flake from there!!! :-\
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Tested today!!
WOW.. Awsome brutale acceleration!!!
In fact i have the same as teh SR does but not the same powerband, meaning myne with oly 66V battery can not sustain that torque as far in RPM as the 2013+ does.
But believe me.. for the 0-80km/h that is AWSOME!!
I will rework a bit the Torque vs RPM curve in the DCF to try extending further the torque in higher RPM.
I measured 592A battery current from now at 65V witch mean about 38kW.. I woudl say about 34kW at the wheel meaning about 42hp.. but there is still margin to tweak a little bit the parameters and get as high as 660A or more on the battery side =)
Doc
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Awesome Doc. Really! I wish you'd put together a "how-to" instruction list, and I'd do the same on my 2012.
Why did you keep your pack voltage at 2012 levels?
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Awesome Doc. Really! I wish you'd put together a "how-to" instruction list, and I'd do the same on my 2012.
Why did you keep your pack voltage at 2012 levels?
Well that's less complicated actually this way. the 2016 pack is made of 3 brick of 18s2p and BMs work only for 18s.
To modify the battery i would have to rebuild the battery configuration to 28s, replace the actual BMS and MBB and DC-DC, but the most complicated would be to make 28s and enough p to keep the same kWh.
Actually this is 36 cells x 3 = 108 cells and now divided by 28s mean 3.86.. so ideally i would need 4p and get some cells that have about the same age as mine to keep the pack excellent balancing job. this mena i would need 4 x 28s = 112s. and i would get 80Ah at 102V nominal instead of 120Ah at 66V.
That would be enough for powering the size 6 for 660A burst for sure as the EIG cells are capable of 5C cont and 10C burst so 800A burst wold not be a problemf or the 660A request from the controller.
But the other problem is that i already built two range extender battery pack made also for 18s.. so i would need to reconfigure these for 28s and the case only have the room for 36 cells each, so i would need to decrease the number of cell to match the 28s... i can not raise to 56s in each case because ther eis not enough room and only using 28s would make me loosing some kWh of storage...
Doc
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Improved power!
41kW !!
I measured 638A at 64.1V =40.895kW of power to the motor
That's 55hp in the motor!! i saw that burst at about 60km/h.
I guess at the Wheel i probable have about 80% of that = 44hp...
The 2012 s stock have 30kw to the motor i gained 33% higher power by using the size 6 =)
That is awsome!! 8)
Doc
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Doc, have you tried to source a lower voltage size 6 and then run >660A to the motor. I know the motor can handle more current. It wouldn't be as efficient as the 28s version, but it could have the same power.
I have also seen about 640A battery peak from my size 6 controller. Measured with a CA. Something like 62kW (97V sag) into the controller.
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Well i am not so sur ethe lower voltage version can do higher amp... let me explain.
Driving a controller lower than his rated voltage help for mosfet protection. some controller fet see sometime as high as 1V per 10 amp overshoot when they switch ON and OFF. so when using higher current it also mean it require better voltage tolerance to sustain the high phase amp...
otherwise ... did you heard that the 48V model was able to drive higher than 660A?
Doc
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I understand what you mean, I trust that both Sevcon and Zero have done the hard work of making sure they have appropriate limits set on software so that the controller will not become damaged.
Yes the 48V size 6 does 780A.
http://www.sevcon.com/media/2461/Gen4%20Aug%202013%20web.pdf
Never seen one In the wild, but I believe that they make them.
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G48 max operating voltage is 69.6V, that's 3.87V per cell.
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G48 max operating voltage is 69.6V, that's 3.87V per cell.
I didn't even think about that. I assumed the 18s Zero used a lower voltage sevcon, but never took 5sec to do any math. I guess Doc will just have to go dual controllers to get more power.
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G48 max operating voltage is 69.6V, that's 3.87V per cell.
I didn't even think about that. I assumed the 18s Zero used a lower voltage sevcon, but never took 5sec to do any math. I guess Doc will just have to go dual controllers to get more power.
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Nope! Same controller from 2012-2016!
At this point it's almost the only part of the bike that's the same, except the headlight :)
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Add an R to an S or DS and pay an extra $2000 for the R badge and another 240 amps? :o What else?
That is the additional cost you pay to go from a 420 to 660 amp controller so for 240 amps more!
Thicker wire, bigger box and a few more mosfets and possibly an economy of scale.
Does anyone know why that +$2K should be?
As Sevcon are made in England would anyone like me to try get a price for a job lot? ;D
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Add an R to an S or DS and pay an extra $2000 for the R badge and another 140 amps? :o What else?
That is the additional cost you pay to go from a 420 to 660 amp controller so for 140 amps more!
Thicker wire, bigger box and a few more mosfets and possibly an economy of scale.
Does anyone know why that +$2K should be?
As Sevcon are made in England would anyone like me to try get a price for a job lot? ;D
Maybe you should correct you math! this is NOT 140.. that's 240A more =) ..... just like a Size 4 and a size 2 together... that's 55% more and it WORTH !!
Doc
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Yup, Math corrected :-[ Thank you.
Point still stands though $2K more for an extra 240amps through the controller?
I am sure that looks like a great deal to an ICE bike tuner and the bike will no doubt go faster once out of the restricted zone but what exactly costs an extra $2000 in a Sevcon 6 contriller compared to a 4 is my question?
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Yup, Math corrected :-[ Thank you.
Point still stands though $2K more for an extra 240amps through the controller?
I am sure that looks like a great deal to an ICE bike tuner and the bike will no doubt go faster once out of the restricted zone but what exactly costs an extra $2000 in a Sevcon 6 contriller compared to a 4 is my question?
From a cost perspective, very little. The controller price from Sevcon is not significantly different, certainly not by $2000.
Ex: here are a couple resellers that list prices. Zero's prices will be somewhat lower of course.
Size 4 975 €
http://kartmasters.fr/shop/fr/variateurs-triphases/835-variateur-sevcon-gen4-8035.html
Size 6 1323 €
http://kartmasters.fr/shop/fr/variateurs-triphases/836-variateur-sevcon-gen4-8055.html
Various Size 4 $875, Size 6 $979
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ev-controllers.html
I don't doubt Zero has considered offering Size 6 controllers for all bikes, presumably at a lower cost but perhaps with different motors, as Brammo has done with the Empulse. Offering a 50 kW bike at a lower price would certainly increase sales, but overall profit might go down because the $2000 markup between S and SR is almost pure profit. Their business types have crunched the numbers and what they're shipping represents what they think to be the optimal mix.
Is that the best for the consumer? Perhaps not, but given the proportion of SR sales, enough people see perceived value in the size 6 upgrade to pay the difference. And certainly a bike manufacturer that goes under due to an unsustainable business model is not in the owners' best interests.
For the people that want to buy a Size 4 and upgrade to a Size 6 later, they can go Doc's route or contact Hollywood Electrics for an upgrade kit.