ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Delnari on March 12, 2017, 04:21:40 AM
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Just picked up my '17 Zero SR from my dealer after being in the shop for 2 weeks. It got the 2-4 BMS error code and had to be towed to the shop for diagnostics (motor wouldn't run after a full charge). Took Zero many days to send a update to the dealer with the new code update to fix the issue after they were given the bike downloaded logs. The dealer passed along that Zero will be releasing an update to all (2017 owners I guess) not to leave the bike plugged in once they 100% charged. Said it could lead to battery overheating condition and cause a charging error later on such as mine did when it refused to run.
Keep a lookout for the update from Zero about this change to their current policy of leaving them plugged in all the time.
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[...] The dealer passed along that Zero will be releasing an update to all (2017 owners I guess) not to leave the bike plugged in once they 100% charged. Said it could lead to battery overheating condition and cause a charging error later on such as mine did when it refused to run. [...]
So your Zero hast another onboard-charger? ;-)
Charging with 1,3 kW leads to battery overheating condition? I guess the problem is something different ...
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Hi Delnari since you have a 2017 you should post this in the 2013+ section. Seems strange to cause over heating since they are only pulling like .24 amps once they are full. but do what they say to cover your warranty.
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Hi Delnari since you have a 2017 you should post this in the 2013+ section. Seems strange to cause over heating since they are only pulling like .24 amps once they are full. but do what they say to cover your warranty.
I happen to have my 2014S connected to a Kill A Watt meter today and note that when fully charged the system is pulling only .08 watt from the wall outlet. When it was charging it was pulling just under 1400 watts.
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Hi Delnari since you have a 2017 you should post this in the 2013+ section.
Report to moderator works too... Moving.
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I happen to have my 2014S connected to a Kill A Watt meter today and note that when fully charged the system is pulling only .08 watt from the wall outlet. When it was charging it was pulling just under 1400 watts.
A key part of your post...the year of your bike. It sounds like they're recommending unplugging on the 2017, and perhaps going forward. I wonder, did they pull a Samsung? In search of ever-higher battery capacity, did they push the charging voltage too far and now there's a tiny-but-legally-liable risk of the battery overheating? Or is everything unchanged but they feel the need to reduce their legal exposure now? I'm sure as the company grows the lawyers will be taking a more and more active role in minimizing their liability.
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did they push the charging voltage too far and now there's a tiny-but-legally-liable risk of the battery overheating?
I suspect the legally-reliability-risk differs wrt the United States, the European market,
and wherever else in the world Zero has market. An interesting thing I learned at Zero's
10 anniversary celebration is that they have to meet the standards of every country in
which they sell. Case in point: european countries have (if I remember correctly) electrical
emission standards that don't exist in the US -- e.g: what happens to the bike when it passes
under a high voltage AC transmission line.
I'd be very interested to know the origin of "unplug at 100%." But I don't expect the Zero
corporation will come out and say ... I doubt their lawyers would let them.
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did they push the charging voltage too far and now there's a tiny-but-legally-liable risk of the battery overheating?
Charging voltage has stayed the same, and the range/etc figures are the same for 2017. Regulatory requirements mentioned certainly keep coming up vaguely in comments from Zero employees, so that could be at issue.
Overheating the battery from a BMS and onboard charger as something that precedes a 2-4 error seems unlikely. It sounds more like the BMS can overheat itself if it wakes up and starts cel rebalancing erroneously (this might only happen after a few iterations, hence the "few days" recommendation). The current it can apply to the cells through those interconnects does not seem to be nearly enough, and the 2-4 outcomes result in BMS replacement, not a battery warranty replacement.
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It sounds to me that you got a tempory fix and Zero is working on a permanent one. The BMS and MBB got an upgrade this year so it sounds like a bug. In your case you should definatley do as they say. I would guess that the update will fix the issue so that leaving it plugged in (after the update) will be OK again.
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Something that I find somewhat interesting is that (using the KAW meter) my 2014S, when having used 20% of the pack capacity (80% shown on the dash battery usage estimator), will use just over 2 kWh to recharge to 98%. Then about 30 hours later the system will wake up, finish recharging to 100% and balancing the cells. During that 2% recharge cycle, the KAW says that the power consumed at the wall was another 450 watt-hours. Seems like a lot of power to get to that last 2%. ???
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Richard I've seen mine have very little extra wattage used after it fills up and starts click clacking maybe .75 kWs more over 48 hours. 13DS with the four Meanwells.
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It does kind of make you wonder how and why charging protocols seem to have changed from year to year. ???
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Hi fellow owners!
Zero is in the process of changing our charging and storage recommendations for 2013 and newer motorcycles, but it has nothing to do with power pack overheating, lawyers, or any of the other issues discussed above. We’ve learned much from several years of experience with our current cells and from data provided by the manufacturer. We are applying these learnings in a number of areas. One key change is that we are no longer requiring that you always keep the motorcycle plugged in. In fact, we have found that our 2013 and newer motorcycles should have even longer and healthier lives if the motorcycle is left unplugged when charging isn’t need. We’ll be launching a communications plan to all owners in the next few weeks, but the new charging recommendations for 2013 and new bikes are:
"Charging Recommendations for 2013 and newer Zero Motorcycles (All Models)
Regular Use
After each use, you should plug your motorcycle into an AC power source to recharge. Once it is charged, you should disconnect it from the AC power source. Leaving your motorcycle off the charger will maximize long-term power pack health.
While unplugged and keyed off, the motorcycle's electronics will consume a very small amount of power and the power pack will drain extremely slowly. If you don’t ride for an extended period (30 days or more), you may want to plug the motorcycle in for a few hours to charge it prior to your next ride.
Long-term Storage
For planned long-term storage (more than 30 days), we recommend draining the power pack to a ~60% state of charge, and leaving the charger unplugged.
Once again, the power pack will drain extremely slowly over time. Check state of charge (SoC) at least monthly, and charge it back up to 60% if it has dropped below 30%. When you’re ready to take your motorcycle out of storage to ride it again, plug in the charger for at least 24 hours to ensure optimal cell balance is restored.
Warning: Never store your motorcycle at a state of charge of less than 30%. Leaving the power pack discharged below this level for a prolonged period could damage the power pack and void the warranty."
As an owner of multiple Zero motorcycles, I had an impossible time keeping them all plugged in. So from my personal perspective, we are just relaxing our guidelines to make them even more enjoyable.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
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Long-term Storage
For planned long-term storage (more than 30 days), we recommend draining the power pack to a ~60% state of charge, and leaving the charger unplugged.
Many thanks for the info! Only (slightly snarky) question: is there any way to drain to ~60% aside from going for a ride?
(Fort. I live in the bay area, and can ride year-round)
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I assume that we should pull the plug once the dash display shows 100%, which on my 2014S is after the pack is balanced, which it does about 30 hours after recharging to 98%.
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Don't forget about us non-California riders...
Cold Temps Storage?
Thanks!
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I assume that we should pull the plug once the dash display shows 100%, which on my 2014S is after the pack is balanced, which it does about 30 hours after recharging to 98%.
My 2016 FXS goes straightaway to 100%, or at least I've never noticed a pause at 98%. It has always read 100% in the morning when charging overnight. Should it ever be left on the charger longer for balancing the pack, or does 100% mean that balancing has already taken place?
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I assume that we should pull the plug once the dash display shows 100%, which on my 2014S is after the pack is balanced, which it does about 30 hours after recharging to 98%.
My 2016 FXS goes straightaway to 100%, or at least I've never noticed a pause at 98%. It has always read 100% in the morning when charging overnight. Should it ever be left on the charger longer for balancing the pack, or does 100% mean that balancing has already taken place?
No doubt the charging protocol has changed between my 2014S/PT (which has never had its programming updated) and the 2016 models. My guess is that when the dash says 100% then your pack is likely balanced. On my bike when it is balancing, the green light on the dash blinks faster than it does when it is bulk charging. When it is hooked up to a Kill A Watt meter, it shows just under 12 amps when bulk charging and a little more than half of that current when balancing the pack.
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Long-term Storage
For planned long-term storage (more than 30 days), we recommend draining the power pack to a ~60% state of charge, and leaving the charger unplugged.
Many thanks for the info! Only (slightly snarky) question: is there any way to drain to ~60% aside from going for a ride?
(Fort. I live in the bay area, and can ride year-round)
My slightly snark response, "Riding is always the best way to drain a power pack." :)
All kidding aside, there isn't another way that can be done safely by an owner or dealer. Sorry.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
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I assume that we should pull the plug once the dash display shows 100%, which on my 2014S is after the pack is balanced, which it does about 30 hours after recharging to 98%.
I leave that up to you and it depends on whether you are storing for the long term. The key change is we are dropping the guideline/requirement that you must or should keep it plugged in all the time.
With respect to seeing some variation in the SOC report at the top end of the range, I would also make sure you have updated the firmware. Not sure if it would apply in this case, but there are some improvements that were made that might apply here.
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My 2016 FXS goes straightaway to 100%, or at least I've never noticed a pause at 98%. It has always read 100% in the morning when charging overnight. Should it ever be left on the charger longer for balancing the pack, or does 100% mean that balancing has already taken place?
My FXS 2016 also goes to 100% overnight, however, I recently left it parked for about a week and when I eventually went for a ride it said 97%.
It was still plugged throughout.
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I assume that we should pull the plug once the dash display shows 100%, which on my 2014S is after the pack is balanced, which it does about 30 hours after recharging to 98%.
I leave that up to you and it depends on whether you are storing for the long term. The key change is we are dropping the guideline/requirement that you must or should keep it plugged in all the time.
With respect to seeing some variation in the SOC report at the top end of the range, I would also make sure you have updated the firmware. Not sure if it would apply in this case, but there are some improvements that were made that might apply here.
Once my bike reaches 100% charge, I always unplug it. But then I ride it at least once a week - since I live in the SF Bay Area, too.
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+1 Richard
I haven't gone a week without putting at least 10 or more miles on it since I got it, except for the battery recall. From what I've read from people and my own use, that is what the bikes like. Ride it, charge it, ride it some more.
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I've only had my FXS a few weeks, but it's always felt right to unplug it in the morning after it charged, whether i was going to ride it or not. I'm very unlikely to go a week without riding a bike, whatever the weather or whatever bike I have.
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Hi fellow owners!
Zero is in the process of changing our charging and storage recommendations for 2013 and newer motorcycles, but it has nothing to do with power pack overheating, lawyers, or any of the other issues discussed above. We’ve learned much from several years of experience with our current cells and from data provided by the manufacturer. We are applying these learnings in a number of areas. One key change is that we are no longer requiring that you always keep the motorcycle plugged in. In fact, we have found that our 2013 and newer motorcycles should have even longer and healthier lives if the motorcycle is left unplugged when charging isn’t need. We’ll be launching a communications plan to all owners in the next few weeks, but the new charging recommendations for 2013 and new bikes are:
"Charging Recommendations for 2013 and newer Zero Motorcycles (All Models)
Regular Use
After each use, you should plug your motorcycle into an AC power source to recharge. Once it is charged, you should disconnect it from the AC power source. Leaving your motorcycle off the charger will maximize long-term power pack health.
While unplugged and keyed off, the motorcycle's electronics will consume a very small amount of power and the power pack will drain extremely slowly. If you don’t ride for an extended period (30 days or more), you may want to plug the motorcycle in for a few hours to charge it prior to your next ride.
Long-term Storage
For planned long-term storage (more than 30 days), we recommend draining the power pack to a ~60% state of charge, and leaving the charger unplugged.
Once again, the power pack will drain extremely slowly over time. Check state of charge (SoC) at least monthly, and charge it back up to 60% if it has dropped below 30%. When you’re ready to take your motorcycle out of storage to ride it again, plug in the charger for at least 24 hours to ensure optimal cell balance is restored.
Warning: Never store your motorcycle at a state of charge of less than 30%. Leaving the power pack discharged below this level for a prolonged period could damage the power pack and void the warranty."
As an owner of multiple Zero motorcycles, I had an impossible time keeping them all plugged in. So from my personal perspective, we are just relaxing our guidelines to make them even more enjoyable.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
I would like to personally thank the folks at Zero for taking the immediate incentive to correct their “Long Term Battery Storage†recommendations for the Zero motorcycle.
I’m certain my safety concerns posted on this forum in my article on “Long Term Battery Storage in January http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.0)
Combined with my personal letter to Zero with my concerns regarding the “Fire†risk of unattended charging was instrumental to their decision.
As I indicated in detail in both my letter and this forum, due to very low self-discharge rates of current lithium cells, there is no benefit in having the bike powered and unattended for long periods of time. As I outlined in my January article, a safer method of simply discharging the cells to 60-70% SOC provides better health for the pack and most important allows the bike to be un-plugged for long term storage therefore removing the possibility of charging circuitry failure, which may result in an over-charged SOC, resulting in a fire threat, loss of property or even death as we have witnessed numerous times with other lithium powered vehicles and devices.
Best Regards - Mike Mas
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I’m certain my safety concerns posted on this forum in my article on “Long Term Battery Storage in January http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.0)
Combined with my personal letter to Zero with my concerns regarding the “Fire†risk of unattended charging was instrumental to their decision.
You refuse to listen to anybody but yourself, don't you? A quote which you even repeated yourself, directly from a Zero employee, who actually knows what he's talking about: "...Zero is in the process of changing our charging and storage recommendations for 2013 and newer motorcycles, but it has nothing to do with power pack overheating, lawyers, or any of the other issues discussed above....In fact, we have found that our 2013 and newer motorcycles should have even longer and healthier lives if the motorcycle is left unplugged when charging isn’t need."
THE RISK OF FIRE IF YOU LEAVE YOUR BIKE PLUGGED IN IS INSIGNIFICANT! They're changing their recommendation because, and ONLY because, the battery pack will enjoy an even longer life if you don't leave the batteries trickle-charging all the time. I'm sure your letter to Zero went right where it belonged, the circular file. Your opinion means even less to them than it does to the members of this forum.
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I would say the Zero recommendation is more agreeing more with:
"Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer"
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5314.msg37483#msg37483 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5314.msg37483#msg37483)
than Low's.
Charging is still going to happen while I contently sleep.
Long term storage is just awaiting what temp to set my garage thermostat.
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I heard that Zero will be making a limited edition Zero MM in honour of the lives that Mike Mas has undoubtedly saved.
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It’s regretful there is still negativity on such an important safety issue!
Shortly after I purchased my Zero, I discovered this error regarding Zero’s recommendation for long term storage. I then addressed the issue on this forum and in writing to Zero and they immediately rectified the problem and changed their policy. The engineer from Farasis, the manufacture of these same cells confirmed my finding as well in a reply. I have worked at a professional level in design and testing with lithium powered vehicles and military drone aircraft for decades, this is my trade, I speak from past experience, therefore my comments and findings are 100% accurate.
I’m not looking for any credit or any forum status for my findings, my only motivation is to make riders aware of this potential hazard and to hopefully make them as safe as possible.
Regards - Mike Mas
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This topic has already been beaten to death!
Moderator, please lock this thread and don't let it come back!
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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There's a "Report to moderator" link on every post. If you can use that it makes much easier to track the history of actions.
*edit 20170319* Several of us have used the "Report to moderator" link for postings in this thread. Thank you. Thinking out loud here it seems unfair to lock a whole topic started recently by Delnari (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=7800) because of a few (unrelated) bad actors in the thread. Also I'm getting vague or missing comments why posts are reported that, while not super-helpful, are being reviewed and further commented on. Again, thank you to those who take the time to report posts. Leaving this thread open and if there is cause to modify or delete some posts I would just hope each person can do that themselves and leave the attitudes off the forum.
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I’m not looking for any credit or any forum status for my findings, my only motivation is to make riders aware of this potential hazard and to hopefully make them as safe as possible.
Regards - Mike Mas
Mike you are right about some cheap HobbyKing Turnigy Lipo that can sometimes be dangerous being left plugged in with some really cheap knockoff Chinese chargers. Something fails, it overcharges and ultimately it catches on fire. Also your experience with drones uses the lightest batteries in exchange for safety, and carrying the minimum weight of safety devices, or none at all. Also there is no human on board. If a drone catches fire it's not good, but not a primary design consideration versus the weight, performance and flight time.
However it's a totally different ball game with electric vehicles including Zero. There are multiple layers of safety unlike what your drones have. There is ABSOLUTELY NO safety risk leaving a Zero plugged in ever! Period! The issue was about long term observation and data that the packs longevity might be increased if not left at a full state of charge when not in use for a long time. But I can understand Low on Cash's confusion and his desire to draw a comparison to things he believes are apples and apples, where they are not anywhere close. I always have to pick on Mike that he is a Trump supporter and will believe anything, and is also highly immune and resistant to facts if it doesn't support what he already believes. So I probably won't be able to get Mike to see the light, I worry he is a lost cause, but I hope to help others who's star shines a little bit brighter than Mikes does.
Since Zero's previous recommendations were to leave the bike plugged in at all times, all they are doing is saying this isn't REQUIRED any more on 2013 and up bikes as long as you are over 30%
If you ride 6-8 miles a day for instance, you don't have to plug in every night if you don't want to. You could plug in once a week or plug in every night if you want to, its totally up to you now. All Zero recommends is not to leave it under 30% SOC after a ride, charge to at least 60% if it won't be ridden for a long period (over winter or a long vacation overseas for example).
But Zero isn't saying you can't or shouldn't leave it plugged in because of some safety issue Low on Cash, that's not it and you are completely incorrect to suggest that Mike, and I worry others new to the forum might think this is part of it and it's not. The Zero cell chemistry is very stable to 4.15v and the redundancy of overcharge protection prevents any possibility of an issue.
Again the purpose is 2 fold:
1) to make owning a Zero easier for the rider. If you get home and the bike is at 75% and you can plug in, great! If you get home and for some reason don't want to, that's fine too. You have more freedom now and will not void your warranty for leaving the bike unplugged as long as it remains above 30%, that is the main clarification.
2) we now have a good decade of battery pack longevity and it is noticed that there might be some benefit to not leaving a pack sitting at 100% state of charge to even further extend the pack health past the designed lifespan. Nothing to worry about if you feel more comfortable plugging it in each night, that is totally fine.
It has been known there are 3 main things that can accelerate battery degradation: heat, and time at high state of charge.
Keeping the bike stored in the shade if possible is always a good idea, and if you care to charge to 80-90% before you go to bed, and then plug in first thing in the morning, this would be ideal, but not practical for most. Would love to see an app one day that did this for you and you just programmed in the time you need to leave for work and it topped the bike off 15-20 minutes before you were ready to go.
It's just something small that could perhaps extend battery life a small amount, but not worth changing your habits. I study batteries and battery degradation and I don't do this myself most of the time, so I don't expect anyone out there to do this, just sharing my ideal scenario for the purpose of sharing knowledge and clearing up misinformation spread by others - Talking to you Low on Cash! ;)
Bottom line, no need to change anything you do, but if you can't plug in one night and you are over 30%, don't stress about it one bit.
- Electric Terry
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I wonder if the recommendation for the 2012 models remains to keep them continuously plugged in - as my daughter has been doing on her 2012 ZF9 S for the past 3 years and I did for the previous 2 years? It caught my attention when I read that Zero's new recommendations only applied to the 2013 and later models. ???
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Snipped from Electric Terry:
Since Zero's previous recommendations were to leave the bike plugged in at all times, all they are doing is saying this isn't REQUIRED any more on 2013 and up bikes as long as you are over 30%
Snipped from Aaron:
"Charging Recommendations for 2013 and newer Zero Motorcycles (All Models)
Regular Use
After each use, you should plug your motorcycle into an AC power source to recharge. Once it is charged, you should disconnect it from the AC power source. Leaving your motorcycle off the charger will maximize long-term power pack health.
Even though it's not required to unplug the bike, Aaron is saying that we should unplug the bike rather than leave it plugged in. I had to have my BMS replaced just before the two-year warranty ran out - I had kept it plugged in all the time and I wonder now if that's what cooked my BMS. I am now unplugging after bringing it to a full charge.
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May or may not be related, but there is a chance it is. I remember not too long ago my phone chargers would fail after a couple of years of use. Poor parts and workmanship. That seems to have been fixed nowadays - I have not had a phone charger fail recently.
Electronic components have a limited life, some shorter than others, when under power. I wouldn't be surprised if some lowly capacitor or pathway in a microchip fails prematurely when the bike is left plugged in all the time. Or you were unlucky and an electric spike damaged yours.
Batteries I read don't like to be trickle-charged/discharged/kept near full SoC, so that's another plus of the latest guidance.
We should also remember that it is better to charge often and discharge less than to charge less frequently and discharge near empty. That I think was in Zero's guidance but I'm not sure. Basically, even if you can ride 10 times for 10 miles each on one charge, it is better to charge at least a couple of times if not every time during that span. Ideally, one would keep the SoC somewhere between 50-70%, never discharging too low and never charging near full, but that's to much hassle for most people and the type of BMS in the Zero I'm pretty sure needs the SoC to be near 100% to equalize...
I had to have my BMS replaced just before the two-year warranty ran out - I had kept it plugged in all the time and I wonder now if that's what cooked my BMS. I am now unplugging after bringing it to a full charge.
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"Ideally, one would keep the SoC somewhere between 50-70%, never discharging too low and never charging near full"
What is the actual SoC when the bike indicates 100%?
I've used a lot of small Ni-Cads and NiMhs back in the day and they liked to cycle - discharge, trickle to full, repeat. I have instructions with some Li-Ions, phones, etc, that recommend short top-ups whenever you have a few minutes rather than a full discharge-recharge cycle. Of course that doesn't work for me cause I use the phone all day and plug it in at night, same as my Zero. Guess we'll have to learn new habits.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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100% SoC indicated is lower than 100% of the max possible per the cells spec., something like 4.15V as opposed to 4.20V or whatever the "fully charged" spec for the cells is.
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100% SoC indicated is lower 100% of the max possible per the cells spec., something like 4.15V as opposed to 4.20V or whatever the "fully charged" spec for the cells is.
So, safe but not ideal? 99% or thereabouts? I'm thinking maybe there's a market for an app to assist (train) EV owners to best manage charging.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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Snipped from Electric Terry:
Since Zero's previous recommendations were to leave the bike plugged in at all times, all they are doing is saying this isn't REQUIRED any more on 2013 and up bikes as long as you are over 30%
Snipped from Aaron:
"Charging Recommendations for 2013 and newer Zero Motorcycles (All Models)
Regular Use
After each use, you should plug your motorcycle into an AC power source to recharge. Once it is charged, you should disconnect it from the AC power source. Leaving your motorcycle off the charger will maximize long-term power pack health.
Even though it's not required to unplug the bike, Aaron is saying that we should unplug the bike rather than leave it plugged in. I had to have my BMS replaced just before the two-year warranty ran out - I had kept it plugged in all the time and I wonder now if that's what cooked my BMS. I am now unplugging after bringing it to a full charge.
I believe the wording Aaron uses will be the official recommendation in the next owners manual. And the ultimate goal is to extend the pack life to be useful well past 5 years. And there are many ways to do that and each person might prefer one way over another.
For example if you drain your pack to 40% each day. The onboard charger refills about 10% per hour if you have a powertank, a little more if you don't. But for this example you would plug the bike in right before you go to bed and when you wake up in the morning, it just finished charging right before you need it. This minimizes time spent at high SOC and would be the ultimate pack life extender.
I think the wording of unplugging after it reaches 100% probably is more directed at those who aren't daily riders. Meaning if the bike will be sitting for more than a few days or weeks to unplug it and let the voltage self discharge from about 116.4 volts down to about 113.5 to 114 and not to keep topping it off.
Anyway whatever it is when Zero makes an official announcement, just follow their directions and if you want to do more or less that is up to you.
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Thanks so much, Terry. It helps when you weigh in, having worked Zero's batteries pretty extensively.
I've tried to condense all the lessons here into the Storage article on the wiki:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Usage#Storage (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Usage#Storage)
I tried to distill it and keep it organized so it's as clear as possible, which means I tried to leave some things out if they seemed a little hard to interpret (of course this can be fixed). I'm hoping at first glance, most readers get the right idea and know what they should do for their situation and aren't bothered by the options presented.
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Zero is in the process of changing our charging and storage recommendations for 2013 and newer motorcycles, but it has nothing to do with power pack overheating, lawyers, or any of the other issues discussed above. We’ve learned much from several years of experience with our current cells and from data provided by the manufacturer. We are applying these learnings in a number of areas. One key change is that we are no longer requiring that you always keep the motorcycle plugged in. In fact, we have found that our 2013 and newer motorcycles should have even longer and healthier lives if the motorcycle is left unplugged when charging isn’t need.
I guess I don't understand why people are having trouble with Aaron's statement. He says NOTHING about the BMS or any of the electronics, NOTHING about anybody's perceived risk of fire, the one and only consideration is lifetime of the cells. Sounds like long-term data from the lab and the field indicates the batteries might be SLIGHTLY better off if they're not continuously trickle-charged once they reach 100%.
I'm with Terry....if I was going to store my bike for anything longer than a couple of days, I'd unplug it. But since I ride essentially every day (god bless San Diego weather!), I'm not going to change my habits. I'll ride during the day and recharge it overnight. I'm not going to be rushing out to unplug it at 2 in the morning because it should be done charging.
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Something I don't understand, I thought that cell balancing was only done at 100% SoC and can even take 72 hours to complete.
How does that work with the new charging recommendations of disconnecting when you reach 100%?
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Something I don't understand, I thought that cell balancing was only done at 100% SoC and can even take 72 hours to complete.
How does that work with the new charging recommendations of disconnecting when you reach 100%?
Check your cell balance from the app once it reaches 100%. I think you'll see that most packs are within a few millivolts already, and cell balancing isn't even done each charge cycle more than a couple minutes.
On my 2012 Vetter Zero all the extra batteries did not have a BMS attached to them. After 40,000 miles I checked the balance and the furthest cells were 45 millivolts out of balance at the top. Now even Luke said I as very lucky these cells were so well matched from birth as far as cell impedance, but the current generation Farasis cells should have as good a chance or more of being matched too.
Basically as soon as you are within 2 mV of balance, it doesn't get any better and you can unplug the bike. Although being 10 mV isn't the end of the world either. The millivolt of balance will grow as you discharge the pack and that's ok. The cells are top balanced not bottom balanced. You could see anywhere from 50 mV to 200 mV of balance in the final few miles if you ever run the pack to empty and that's perfectly normal. When you charge it will go back to 2 mV again.
So let me just say that having a perfectly top balanced pack is good, it being a few mV out of balance for a few days or even weeks won't be anything to stress about. Plug it in overnight and it will be balanced again. The balance resistors are very small on the BMS and so it does take some time to burn the high cells down if they are far off, but keep an eye on it with the app and you'll learn how it works on your bike.
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My 2014S, when it is charging, seems to take time off from bulk charging to go to cell balancing at around 90%, then it continues to charge to 98% at which time it balances again and shuts down at 98%. Then 30 hours later it wakes up, completes charging to 100% and also performs a balancing routine before finally shutting down, at which time I pull the plug.
I assume that the system is balancing when the slow flashing green light starts flashing quicker. When I have the Kill-A-Watt meter attached I see the power consumption drop from 12 amps to around 6 amps when the green charging light increases its rate of blinking. All very interesting if you like to watch a green light flashing and KAW meters running. All I care about is that my app still shows a battery capacity of 13.34 kWh when fully charged, my individual cell packs are within 2 mW when balanced, and the bike still runs like new. :)
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Mike you are right about some cheap HobbyKing Turnigy Lipo that can sometimes be dangerous being left plugged in with some really cheap knockoff Chinese chargers. Something fails, it overcharges and ultimately it catches on fire. Also your experience with drones uses the lightest batteries in exchange for safety, and carrying the minimum weight of safety devices, or none at all. Also there is no human on board. If a drone catches fire it's not good, but not a primary design consideration versus the weight, performance and flight time.
However it's a totally different ball game with electric vehicles including Zero. There are multiple layers of safety unlike what your drones have. There is ABSOLUTELY NO safety risk leaving a Zero plugged in ever! Period! The issue was about long term observation and data that the packs longevity might be increased if not left at a full state of charge when not in use for a long time. But I can understand Low on Cash's confusion and his desire to draw a comparison to things he believes are apples and apples, where they are not anywhere close. I always have to pick on Mike that he is a Trump supporter and will believe anything, and is also highly immune and resistant to facts if it doesn't support what he already believes. So I probably won't be able to get Mike to see the light, I worry he is a lost cause, but I hope to help others who's star shines a little bit brighter than Mikes does.
Since Zero's previous recommendations were to leave the bike plugged in at all times, all they are doing is saying this isn't REQUIRED any more on 2013 and up bikes as long as you are over 30%
If you ride 6-8 miles a day for instance, you don't have to plug in every night if you don't want to. You could plug in once a week or plug in every night if you want to, its totally up to you now. All Zero recommends is not to leave it under 30% SOC after a ride, charge to at least 60% if it won't be ridden for a long period (over winter or a long vacation overseas for example).
But Zero isn't saying you can't or shouldn't leave it plugged in because of some safety issue Low on Cash, that's not it and you are completely incorrect to suggest that Mike, and I worry others new to the forum might think this is part of it and it's not. The Zero cell chemistry is very stable to 4.15v and the redundancy of overcharge protection prevents any possibility of an issue.
Again the purpose is 2 fold:
1) to make owning a Zero easier for the rider. If you get home and the bike is at 75% and you can plug in, great! If you get home and for some reason don't want to, that's fine too. You have more freedom now and will not void your warranty for leaving the bike unplugged as long as it remains above 30%, that is the main clarification.
2) we now have a good decade of battery pack longevity and it is noticed that there might be some benefit to not leaving a pack sitting at 100% state of charge to even further extend the pack health past the designed lifespan. Nothing to worry about if you feel more comfortable plugging it in each night, that is totally fine.
It has been known there are 3 main things that can accelerate battery degradation: heat, and time at high state of charge.
Keeping the bike stored in the shade if possible is always a good idea, and if you care to charge to 80-90% before you go to bed, and then plug in first thing in the morning, this would be ideal, but not practical for most. Would love to see an app one day that did this for you and you just programmed in the time you need to leave for work and it topped the bike off 15-20 minutes before you were ready to go.
It's just something small that could perhaps extend battery life a small amount, but not worth changing your habits. I study batteries and battery degradation and I don't do this myself most of the time, so I don't expect anyone out there to do this, just sharing my ideal scenario for the purpose of sharing knowledge and clearing up misinformation spread by others - Talking to you Low on Cash! ;)
Bottom line, no need to change anything you do, but if you can't plug in one night and you are over 30%, don't stress about it one bit.
- Electric Terry
Terry thanks for your detailed reply however its important that you note that regardless of who makes or the cost of the lithium cells (China, Japan, US, Tesla, etc.) when any of these cells are over-charged it will result in a fire.
Your comments on processor protocol are only valid if the main processor and its associated systems, i.e. BMS etc. are operating properly. We all know of countless past and present failures already on record. I suggest you re-read my now locked original post:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.0) where I carefully explain in the event of a processor freeze or BMS freeze or a simple nearby lighting strike which makes that system freeze in a charge condition, it will raise the cells levels above their designed threshold and it will result in a fire. Without being redundant, there is no reason at all to leave a bike plugged in and un-attended for weeks and months at a time since it is not in the best health of the batteries and poses a fire risk.
We all know just how bad a hover board lithium fire is . . . well you can multiply that times a hundred, a 13kw lithium pack is essentially a bomb. My findings which were only made with regard to safety of others were validated by both Zero's recent change in charging policy and further confirmed by Farasis.
Regards - Mike
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both Zero's recent change in charging policy and further confirmed by Farasis.
Regards - Mike
Farasis did not confirm anything. Please don't make those claims. If Farasis is worried about a safety issue they will let their customers know. If you are referring to my comment on your previous thread then I suggest you reread that it cause I clearly said:
The ways to get a battery fire is to put it in a super hot environment, or over discharge the battery then try to charge it back up, or over charge the battery. Leaving the bike on charge can't cause either of those scenarios.
I did go into the chain of events that must happen to even cause over-charging and the likeliness of those all happening is close to impossible. I also mentioned that there are even more safety systems that most people don't know about in those batteries. I really don't like these kind of conversations but lets address some key points.
You are correct, it isn't good to over charge your cells. This increases the likely hood of a fire but doesn't guaranty it. It does matter who makes the lithium cells because the type of chemistry matters a lot and I can tell you that there are a lot of different types of lithium cells.
Even in the event of a BMS failure it is more likely that the BMS will drain the cells because it left the balancers on, it won't allow for an over charge. Like I said even if the BMS fails there is a many other systems in place to open the contactor and prevent any over charging. The onboard charger won't over charge batteries, it won't go above 116. Trust me, it just won't. It is true that leaving the bike plugged in isn't the best for it's heath (even Zero admits that) but it does not post a fire risk.
You can't compare a Zero to those hover board fires because most those hover boards didn't even have a BMS or any form of safety system. They were made to be cheap unlike a Zero that costs many thousands of dollars.
I understand your worries and I appreciate you expressing your safety concerns. I ask that you trust the engineers to make the best decisions because they do take safety seriously. With that being said I think people are giving you hate because they feel that you are dismissing or misinterpreting Terry and the Zero engineers. I think you have already expressed your views and I don't think there is any need to reiterate it. If you have any concerns or question I would be more then happy to clear things up or ease your worries. PM me.
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...when any of these cells are over-charged it will result in a fire.
Yes, lithium batteries can catch on fire. So can gasoline. So can lubricating oil. So can brake fluid, or organic brake pads. So can human flesh. So can wood, or any organic material. Beyond flammability, electricity itself -- even in its natural form, lightning -- kills many people every year.
What is your point? We shouldn't build our houses out of wood because it can burn? I'd be willing to bet you've seen a LOT more wood fires than lithium battery fires, and I KNOW more people die in house fires every year than lithium battery-caused fires. But no, you've decided that overcharging lithium batteries is worse than any of the other dangers I listed above.
NASCAR requires cars' fuel cells to be dual-walled (steel and a very tough plastic), filled with a foam that reduces sloshing, minimizes the amount of air in the tank and suppresses any possible fires, have check valves to contain the fuel in the event the fuel separates from the car, and rigid bracing to prevent said separation. All these are proven risk minimizers. And yet, no production car offers those safety features. Why? Because they're not warranted. These are extreme-use, very expensive safety measures that are appropriate for race cars, not your daily driver or mine.
Vehicles that use lithium batteries take appropriate safety precautions, and it has to be admitted (the Dreamliner alone proves it), those safety measures are sometimes poorly designed, or just fail outright. But for all your squawking, you can't point to a SINGLE production EV fire caused by overcharging the battery.
You got nothing. You need to shut your mouth and stop proving your ignorance.
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LOL you guys really amaze me - you're so afraid to admit when someone is right you would rather twist the facts around to suit your agenda even at the risk of saving someones home or life. It amazes me a Public Forum would accept the responsibility to mask my thread which will avoid a potential danger!
Just to clear the air here's a quote from Farasis from this very same forum and further backed by Zero's new unattended charging policy:
"In the event of the BMS and the MBB not responding and the contactor is welded and the charger some how outputs more than 117.6V then yes there is a risk of fire. This is probably why Zero ask you to check on it every 72 hours to make sure the bike is still responding and the BMS is still alive."
Be Safe - Mike Mas
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Hey Low On Cash,
What would you say is the probability of
1. BMS not responding
AND
2. MBB not responding
AND
3. the contactor is welded
AND
4. the charger some how outputs more than 117.6V
?
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Hey Low On Cash,
What would you say is the probability of
1. BMS not responding
AND
2. MBB not responding
AND
3. the contactor is welded
AND
4. the charger some how outputs more than 117.6V
?
About the chance of lightning striking the house? Better build a Faraday cage around it before it's too late!
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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While I appreciate all the "Pointless" comments and questions to otherwise distract from the topic of lithium battery safety . . . .
1) His comments (1&2) of the processors freezing was exactly what I outlined in my article below:
"Voltage Spikes - There is always concern for voltage spikes in the power grid which could damage the charger or BMS. In addition, spikes may cause the processor to freeze with uncertain results causing an overcharge situation.
During a lightning storm, a close proximity strike could easily destroy not only the charging circuit, but also spike the bikes processor and circuitry. Therefore any time a lightning storm is near you’ll want to immediately unplug the 110 v cord, of course this is not possible when if the bike is unattended!
Uninterruptible Power Supply System - If for any reason you have to leave your bike plugged in and unattended, you can provide some additional protection with the use of a uninterruptible power supply system. While the battery back up feature will be minimal, it will still provide momentary inverter power during spikes in voltage as well as “open the circuit†in the event of a strike. Keep in mind, if a lighting spike gets in your bike, the damage could far exceed the cost of a UPS so its a good investment. I presently use these UPS units on not only my computers but also on all my TV’s, security camera, Wi-Fi System, alarm and even for my RV power."
2) His comments (3&4) was assuming a direct hit. I never insinuated a direct lighting strike which would of course raise the voltage above 117 volts and of course weld the contacts. My comments were directed towards a strike from a remote location even miles from the bike which would elevate the line voltage momentarily and destroy the processor. Have you guys never heard of a lighting power surge or surge protection?
Regards - Mike Mas
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LOL you guys really amaze me - you're so afraid to admit when someone is right you would rather twist the facts around to suit your agenda even at the risk of saving someones home or life. It amazes me a Public Forum would accept the responsibility to mask my thread which will avoid a potential danger!
Just to clear the air here's a quote from Farasis from this very same forum and further backed by Zero's new unattended charging policy:
"In the event of the BMS and the MBB not responding and the contactor is welded and the charger some how outputs more than 117.6V then yes there is a risk of fire. This is probably why Zero ask you to check on it every 72 hours to make sure the bike is still responding and the BMS is still alive."
Be Safe - Mike Mas
Ok so you are quoting me.
Here is the post he is referring to:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.45 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.45)
I don't care for arguing how people interpret things but I do care about people using the Farasis name. What I said in the post were my words as an individual sharing my limited knowledge. I don't represent Farasis and no one on this forum represents Farasis.
About the lighting thing. If your house has a big enough surge from lighting it could destroy the on board charger, but it shouldn't do anything to the BMS. The charger is an isolated power supply with suppressors on the input so if the surge if big enough the suppressors will fail short. Then your breaker should fail after that. The BMS and the rest of the bike is completely isolated from the charger so I don't see a current path there. This is why some people on this forum reports their charger is dead but the bike is fine and there wasn't any fire and most of the time Zero replaces the onboard charger for them. I can't think of any technical way the BMS would be affected. Let me know if someone has an answer to that.
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LOL you guys really amaze me - you're so afraid to admit when someone is right you would rather twist the facts around to suit your agenda even at the risk of saving someones home or life. It amazes me a Public Forum would accept the responsibility to mask my thread which will avoid a potential danger!
Just to clear the air here's a quote from Farasis from this very same forum and further backed by Zero's new unattended charging policy:
"In the event of the BMS and the MBB not responding and the contactor is welded and the charger some how outputs more than 117.6V then yes there is a risk of fire. This is probably why Zero ask you to check on it every 72 hours to make sure the bike is still responding and the BMS is still alive."
Be Safe - Mike Mas
Ok so you are quoting me.
Here is the post he is referring to:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.45 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.45)
I don't care for arguing how people interpret things but I do care about people using the Farasis name. What I said in the post were my words as an individual sharing my limited knowledge. I don't represent Farasis and no one on this forum represents Farasis.
About the lighting thing. If your house has a big enough surge from lighting it could destroy the on board charger, but it shouldn't do anything to the BMS. The charger is an isolated power supply with suppressors on the input so if the surge if big enough the suppressors will fail short. Then your breaker should fail after that. The BMS and the rest of the bike is completely isolated from the charger so I don't see a current path there. This is why some people on this forum reports their charger is dead but the bike is fine and there wasn't any fire and most of the time Zero replaces the onboard charger for them. I can't think of any technical way the BMS would be affected. Let me know if someone has an answer to that.
Wontuan - thanks for your reply - sorry you got dragged into this but a user quoted your reply, so I responded, however you might want to clarify your last post on your position with Farasis and Zero because when Brian asked you; " Not to pry, but how do you know Farasis' practices and accident statistics?"
Your reply was:
"I guess I should have mentioned that I work for Farasis designing BMS and a bunch of the Zero engineers are my good friends."
I really don't see what is left to debate here or why there is so much aggression towards me. I'm just a rider like you guys who discovered an error in unattended charging and put up a post with my safety concerns then followed it up with a report to Zero. Evidently my concerns were valid since Zero's reply was:
"For planned long-term storage (more than 30 days), we recommend draining the power pack to a 60% state of charge, and leaving the charger unplugged. The key change is we are dropping the guideline/requirement that you must or should keep it plugged in all the time."
Zero's revised procedure is the same I outlined in my now "Closed Thread" so why do a select group of guys find fault with the issue and continue attacking me. I am publicly asking the administrators to "Re-open" my Safety thread to avoid it from disappearing from the view of newcomers who visit the forum who are not aware of this potential dangerous charging procedure. Why would this forum want to mask something that can be an dangerous to riders? There is nothing in the thread that violates Forum rules so please re-open my thread!
Mike Mas
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LOL you guys really amaze me - you're so afraid to admit when someone is right you would rather twist the facts around to suit your agenda even at the risk of saving someones home or life. It amazes me a Public Forum would accept the responsibility to mask my thread which will avoid a potential danger!
Just to clear the air here's a quote from Farasis from this very same forum and further backed by Zero's new unattended charging policy:
"In the event of the BMS and the MBB not responding and the contactor is welded and the charger some how outputs more than 117.6V then yes there is a risk of fire. This is probably why Zero ask you to check on it every 72 hours to make sure the bike is still responding and the BMS is still alive."
Be Safe - Mike Mas
Ok so you are quoting me.
Here is the post he is referring to:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.45 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.45)
I don't care for arguing how people interpret things but I do care about people using the Farasis name. What I said in the post were my words as an individual sharing my limited knowledge. I don't represent Farasis and no one on this forum represents Farasis.
About the lighting thing. If your house has a big enough surge from lighting it could destroy the on board charger, but it shouldn't do anything to the BMS. The charger is an isolated power supply with suppressors on the input so if the surge if big enough the suppressors will fail short. Then your breaker should fail after that. The BMS and the rest of the bike is completely isolated from the charger so I don't see a current path there. This is why some people on this forum reports their charger is dead but the bike is fine and there wasn't any fire and most of the time Zero replaces the onboard charger for them. I can't think of any technical way the BMS would be affected. Let me know if someone has an answer to that.
Wontuan - thanks for your reply - sorry you got dragged into this but a user quoted your reply, so I responded, however you might want to clarify your last post on your position with Farasis and Zero because when Brian asked you; " Not to pry, but how do you know Farasis' practices and accident statistics?"
Your reply was:
"I guess I should have mentioned that I work for Farasis designing BMS and a bunch of the Zero engineers are my good friends."
I really don't see what is left to debate here or why there is so much aggression towards me. I'm just a rider like you guys who discovered an error in unattended charging and put up a post with my safety concerns then followed it up with a report to Zero. Evidently my concerns were valid since Zero's reply was:
"For planned long-term storage (more than 30 days), we recommend draining the power pack to a 60% state of charge, and leaving the charger unplugged. The key change is we are dropping the guideline/requirement that you must or should keep it plugged in all the time."
Zero's revised procedure is the same I outlined in my now "Closed Thread" so why do a select group of guys find fault with the issue and continue attacking me. I am publicly asking the administrators to "Re-open" my Safety thread to avoid it from disappearing from the view of newcomers who visit the forum who are not aware of this potential dangerous charging procedure. Why would this forum want to mask something that can be an dangerous to riders? There is nothing in the thread that violates Forum rules so please re-open my thread!
Mike Mas
Mike,
I am ok with people quoting me, even saying "an employee of Farasis said ..", but the things I comment on are from my knowledge and perspective. I do not represent Farasis what so ever. Just like everyone else I could be wrong. You are more then welcome to quote me, just don't say it was Farasis that confirmed anything. This goes for everyone on this forum, do not quote me or anyone else and say that Farasis said it. If Farasis has something to say they will inform their customers.
You are correct that Zero did revised their recommendation. This is to help users increase their battery life cycles. I do see that there has been some aggression going on and I think it is because you insist that there is a risk of fire. Which people view as a false claim. I believe that people do agree with you that leaving the bike plugged in isn't great for the battery cycle life, they just don't agree that there is any fire risk and that Zero changed the recommendation due to a risk of fire. If you truly believe there is a fire risk then try to form a compelling argument with information to back it up. For example if you think a lighting surge can cause damage to the BMS then ask others if they know what kind of surge suppression Zero has on the bike or if the bike is complete isolated from the AC outlet. I encourage you and everyone else to express concerns but also try formulate technical reasons to backup your concerns. Having a good discussion is what forums are about.
With that being said let me provide some information on some assumptions that have been made.
1. BMS not responding
If the BMS doesn't response the contactor will open because they are normally open contactors. While failed BMS have been reported, it is more likely the AFE chips drained some cells or won't close the contactors. The BMS was design to fail in a safe state.
2. MBB not responding
I have never heard of this happening, but who knows.
3. the contactor is welded
Contactor doesn't just weld when they are closed, they weld during closing event. The common way for a contactor to weld is if there is no pre-charging systems and the contactor closes and there is an arc across the contactors and it melts the copper and welds it shut. This happens on high voltage closing events, not opening or already closed.
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/22979862/reasons-for-contact-welding-in-contactors?dti=0&lc=en-WW
4. the charger some how outputs more than 117.6V
I have no idea how this will happen. The charger is an isolated AC to DC charger with surge protection on the AC input and DC output. The BMS can tolerate high voltage so even a high spike the BMS won't care at all. Each cell has voltage clamps across them to limit the voltage on each cell. Also each cell can tolerate a spike on them, its sustained over-voltage that is bad.
If I have provide any incorrect information please let me know.
Again, I think conversations like this should be welcomed but lets keep it a conversation instead of a back and forth name calling thread.
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wontuan
Thanks for your reply - however I’m sure you’ll understand that after you publicly stated on this same forum you worked for Farisis, designed the BMS and knew the folks at Zero, others (myself included) would just assume that your speak on some authority for the company.
While I appreciate your explanation of your comments, since I work on high-level lithium powered military drone aircraft, the system that Zero uses and its cell management is very basic to the equipment that we design, fly and maintain.
What is important out of all this is; the fact that my disclosure here and in writing was instrumental in Zero’s decision to revise their recommendations of the bike being plugged in and unattended for long periods of time. While I’m certainly not in the position to comment on behalf of Zero’s motivations, It’s my humble opinion is it was revised to protect the users and certainly to protect Zero from any liability for their incorrect recommendations. I also feel the health of the battery is of minimal important since its small losses would not be an issue during the warranty period.
On a final note, as bike riders we should all be visual to make our sport safer. It is the responsibility of every owner to make sure our bikes are safe. If they have a fault then regardless of loyalty to the manufacture, its up to us to make in public to first spread the word to others and secondly to force the manufactures to accept the responsibility for their mistake and make it right.
While I’m not looking for any credit, it was the efforts of myself and 6 others who spear-headed a two year effort to go against (BRP) Bombardier Recreational Products the manufacture of Can Am Spyder when in 2008 they installed defective dynamic electric power steering units that would suddenly stop from over-load protection while the bike was in use. Making matters worse, as the rider had to turn the wheel harder when it quit, when the unit suddenly became active again, it resulted in over-steering accidents by the hundreds. Our group notified countless clubs, dealers and organizations and media to inform riders of this problem which avoided many accidents.
After almost 2 years and thousands of complaints and documented accidents, BRP still refused to accept responsibility to change out the steering units. In 2009 the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration stepped in and forced BRP to change the steering unit in over 10,000 Can Am’s. This clearly shows that some manufactures like BRP could care less of their customers safety - we’re simply a VIN number to them.
Regards - Mike Mas