ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: deadFX on April 10, 2021, 06:50:16 PM
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So the dealer here is absolutely worthless. Unable to problem solve, its scary what they telling other customers. Still no working batteries. My FX is not charging and they want to sell me brake rotors and a new handlebar. They don't know how to fix anything. Took the bike to the former importer who appears able to fix anything and everything but they don't seem so interested in helping Zero customers claiming Zero defrauded them of millions.
They did point me to another customer with a ZF3.6 module that shows 87.9V. The importer replaced his battery and didn't take the bad module. He wants about $260 for the pack. I read somewhere about these modules not charging if under 90V. Could I be so lucky? How can I bypass the BMS to charge it to 90V or a little higher? Where would I connect to bypass the BMS? Not many options, there's the main fuse, contactor or relay, and the BMS. We tried plugging in to the the standard Anderson plug, it didn't work.
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Please be careful regarding bypassing the BMS. A BMS usually handles a few things like, battery balancing, ensuring charge is flowing one way, ensuring that you cannot get unlimited current and so on.
If the battery is at 87.9V there might be a good reason that it is there. Best is to try to see if it charges. If not and you have battery knowledge, maybe check if the BMS can tell you what is wrong or in the worst case take the battery apart and see which cell is causing the problem.
Just know that these batteries can cause fires.
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Please be careful regarding bypassing the BMS. A BMS usually handles a few things like, battery balancing, ensuring charge is flowing one way, ensuring that you cannot get unlimited current and so on.
If the battery is at 87.9V there might be a good reason that it is there. Best is to try to see if it charges. If not and you have battery knowledge, maybe check if the BMS can tell you what is wrong or in the worst case take the battery apart and see which cell is causing the problem.
Just know that these batteries can cause fires.
If it's at 87.9v that means each cell is down to 3.13vdc. They are in degradation/danger zone. I would not pay money for a such a pack. Do not attempt to charge/use it. You also absolutely cannot take the battery apart and try to diagnose faulty cells; these packs are entirely potted.
This post is a series of bad ideas. Please do not do any of them.
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Is your battery not charging because the onboard charger is no longer working? These onboard chargers are known to die from what I've read here and elsewhere.
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Yeah, it's not safe to directly charge. And with the pack so low, the resistance of the cells to charging is all wrong and can create too much heat. It would be something that would have to be charged very slowly to balance the cells.
And on the other hand, the importer would have had to have dealt in thousands of bikes to have had 'millions' stolen from them. That claim doesn't sound like it passes the sniff test.
Sorry you've been left without support.
-Crissa
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The guys FX charger died and the dealer didn't have in-stock. By the time they replaced he says this module was just below 90V. Either it'll work or it won't. I just want to give it an 1A current to get over 90V and see if it'll charge with the onboard charger from there. The BMS is still active. A problem battery would be my module which is now showing 26.6V or my friends which ignited in his storage shed waiting on service from the new dealer.
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I'll do this in the yard, not at my kitchen table. Just asking if anyone has charged bypassing the contactor (+) and main fuse (-). I'd rather not, but also not going to pay Zero $4000 for a battery or $8000 for 2.
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It would be dangerous to do so. But... out in the yard, post warranty?
I suppose you do you.
-Crissa
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So I've actually done this before on large li-ion battery packs, just not on Zero. Your thought process is correct. The BMS will refuse to charge the battery pack if the voltage on one or more cells is too low. Since I haven't opened a Zero battery pack before I can't tell you what you need to remove or what wires you need to connect to, but you're correct in what you need to do. You'll need to open the battery pack, find the common ground for all cells and connect a charger ground to that. Then find the positive wire for each cell and one at a time charge them up to a more acceptable voltage. Alternatively you can find the main battery relay and bypass it, basically forcing the battery to be enabled, and then see if the on-board charger will charge it.
Now for the (hopefully) obvious, you need to be careful doing this. A typical car 12v battery can do some serious damage if you drop a wrench somewhere, this battery is magnitudes more powerful than a car battery. You need to wear rubber gloves, you need to do this in an open area away from flammables, you need electrician tools not standard bare metal wrenches/screwdrivers. Basically act like you're doing surgery to a sleeping alligator, every move must be slow and precise.
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Connected a 96V charger set to 1A. + on the contactor where the glue had fallen off and - on the battery side of the fuse. There was an initial spark, no more eventful than that. About 3 hours later the battery reading 94V we connected to a borrowed Delta charger. Looks to have worked. Almost finished charging now. FX is saying 97%. Waiting for friend to hack the password so we can get full access to the BMS. Pack imbalance was 24mV which I think is good enough.
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Interesting you were able to revive the battery this way. What charger did you use?
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Slow and steady... And with fire suppression on hand is the way.
Good luck!
-Crissa
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Its an old 96V golf cart charger. I first tried a variable voltage DC power supply that didn't go so well. Tried charging on the plug side and the clips went up in a flash. I'm picking up a ZF3.6 from the importer Monday that is at 27V. I was told they have several that went overnight from full charge to 27-28V. New batteries. Someone saw my posts here and we were brainstorming what the defect might be. Guys a PhD in EE so I'm glad to have his assistance!
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So where did you connect the + and - to of the battery? I assume you removed the cover. Did you connect to the common negative and individually or the main battery relay as herculeesjr suggested? Or did you find a common positive? Any photos of the inside and connections?
EDIT: I found these photos on another forum. Is this what the battery inside looks like?
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How great if it looked like that MDJAK1. That would have made this far clearer. It does not. If you remove the top plastic housing you'll find a fuse and a relay. Against the advice of some ;D we connected on the battery side of both, relay +, fuse -. I'm told there's a better way to do this, likely safer, but it wasn't explained. I've been waiting over almost 6 months for Zero, apparently the problem goes back much farther, and with COVID finally over, traffic has fully returned. I need a motorcycle. Still need a 2nd battery. I don't want to experiment on my batteries as Zero clearly needs to replace. I'll video it all as soon as I have a second battery. Headed out for a ride to see how this battery is doing. Picking up a fire retardant blanket first. There have been a number of Zero fires here and I'm starting to understand why. Not celebrating having to have done this. Most likely going to sue Zero with a few other customer in the coming weeks. It seems too many been dragged about for over a year waiting on replacement batteries and general repairs. Waiting on a class action lawyer to meet with a couple of us after the holiday. Wish me well.
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You can't sue Zero for the importer breaking the contract.
-Crissa
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I don't know about the USA. I'm in Israel and there were just a few rulings here that I understand mean Zero is exactly responsible for the warranty.
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That's not how it works, tho.
Zero has no presence in Israel. That's the job of the importer.
-Crissa
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Not sure what this has to do with this thread. That's not how the law works in Israel.
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....That you can get a default ruling against a party outside of the country?
Well, that would mean that no sane company would trade with you, no.
-Crissa
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Its the same in Canada and England. Probably the same in the USA. If you do business somewhere, sell product, then you've some direct responsibility. Seems only reasonable.
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No, it is not. That is the point of an importer. They assume the responsibility, because they are local. If they had a problem, they could take it back to the source country where the court has jurisdiction.
Zero has no way to support people in another country, to make sure that returns are made, local laws are complied with, that equipment was treated appropriately. That's why you have a localization office or importer who takes on those responsibilities.
Your importer has run off without supporting you. A black eye for Zero, sure, but also... out of their ability to help.
-Crissa
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If I bought a bunch of bagpipes from Scotland and sold them in the US and they fell apart those people would want their money back from me. The Scottish bagpipe makers didn't open a store here and would not ship new one's over for free or offer to fix them either.
Your issue is with the importer who is very likely the one who has been on here complaining before. He took the risk but no doubt doesn't want to take the hit.
Good luck with your battery and bike but trust me from experience, class action only ever gets some money to lawyers. You'd see nothing.
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Motorcycles are not bagpipes. If you want to sell vehicles in a foreign jurisdiction you need to be prepared to directly address issues in that market and not hide behind or dump those issues on the local importer. I was told earlier today that Zero has already lost in court here.
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Motorcycles are not bagpipes. If you want to sell vehicles in a foreign jurisdiction you need to be prepared to directly address issues in that market and not hide behind or dump those issues on the local importer. I was told earlier today that Zero has already lost in court here.
Literally that's what the local importer is for. They deal with the localization, import fees, and handling of issues that crop up.
Zero didn't sell you a bike.
-Crissa
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I think I had Israel mixed up with the Australia issues. They do have a dealer in Israel so yes you should be covered if you bought it from that dealer and didn't void the warranty.
Good luck.