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[heroto]

A Riddle:
I have access to a Setec 10 kW 500 volt charger DC charger. It plugs into a standard 50 amp 240v outlet. It charges an Energica at about 6 kw (Energica uses a 300v system, so 6 kW makes sense).

Tried this charger on a LW. No go. The handshake part seems to go OK, but the charge doesn't start. The charger's LED screen says "charge fault".
Any thoughts?

[NEW2elec]

Really?

Your just plugging some charger into a $30k bike to see what happens? 

Warranty man, warranty.

You can tell your grand kids in your best old man voice: Back in my day we charged at 1kw at home, and liked it.

[DonTom]

Tried this charger on a LW. No go. The handshake part seems to go OK, but the charge doesn't start. The charger's LED screen says "charge fault".
Any thoughts?

Same often happens with my Energica when trying to charge at a CCS charge station. It is VERY rare for it to work on the first attempt to charge.


And it's a hassle, because to start a new charge attempt,  I must disconnect each time.


It often works okay on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th try.


Seems to me that CCS is overly complicated because they try to make it work with every vehicle possible and they are not expecting the low ~25KW of a motorcycle battery. I doubt if CCS cars have the same issue that are charging at much higher rates. I assume motorcycles are at the very edge of some spec. or something like that.


The ONLY CCS DC charger I have found that works on the first try are those CCS chargers at the Harley shops than can only do around 15KW max. Obviously, those are expecting motorcycles to connect.


So that's my guess. Motorcycles are often at the edge of some spec where they become flakey. Perhaps because of the relative low current draw compared to CCS cars.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[NEW2elec]

I saw a review of an Eva in the UK.  He pulled up to a CCS station at a Shell station.  When he plugged in, the station knew it was an Energica Eva.

The charger has to know how much it can give and when it has to cut back or risk an over voltage charge and catastrophic results.

Harley's 1kw AC OBC is it's weakest point.  If there was an affordable off board charger that could work to pull 6kw from an AC source
I would think it would be a top priority for Harley.

If they don't offer one, then that might be because it isn't setup to work that way for now.

[MVetter]

It is VERY rare for it to work on the first attempt to charge.

I'd say I get stations started on the first try over 80% of the time, assuming the stations are in working order.

[yhafting]

A Riddle:
I have access to a Setec 10 kW 500 volt charger DC charger. It plugs into a standard 50 amp 240v outlet. It charges an Energica at about 6 kw (Energica uses a 300v system, so 6 kW makes sense).

Tried this charger on a LW. No go. The handshake part seems to go OK, but the charge doesn't start. The charger's LED screen says "charge fault".
Any thoughts?

Well these are my thoughts, although i have no means to check them for you:

If the livewire pack is 254V and it can request up to 20kW, it has a theoretical limit of about 80A charging current. Your charger, on the other hand is likely limited to 20A, so there is the question- how does the bike handles the negotiation if it is not offered what it may ask from start?

Some times it is just the sequence of negotiations that is screwed up - that was quite usual with the chargers i ran into in 2017 after i bought my Ioniq EV-, and then you can experiment to find the correct sequence/timing when connecting (if there is anything to sort, such as whether the bike is keyed on or not). With the Ioniq it has been better to keep the car on when initiating charge, which does seem wrong.

With the Ioniq EV i have also experienced chargers not being able to deliver according to soecification- ie they go down after charging for a certain time, when the car accepts more power- then you have to restart to make the station to get things going again. But with newer CCS chargers, and updated SW in the car this seems to be a thing of the past.   

[DonTom]

I'd say I get stations started on the first try over 80% of the time, assuming the stations are in working order.

With the exception of the HD ChargePoints (100% work on the first try), I would be lucky to get 20%. And that is with EV-G0, Ev-Connect, Charge-Point, Electrify America  & GreenLots CCS stations. Electrify America is the worse of them all. I don't think I ever got one to work on the first try & I feel lucky if I can get it to work on the 5th try. But some locationss work better than others. For an example, the Wal*Mart in Fernley, NV always works on the 2nd try (never the first try). The one at the Wal*Mart in Elk Grove almost never works for me, but cars are okay with it. Last time I tried to use it I gave up and went to the next place I could charge.


Do you get them to work 80% across all brands?  Don't count the HD CCS stations as they always work on the first try. At least for me.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[heroto]

Yhafting
IIUC, the most a LW will draw is about 15kW
DonTom,
Lots of phone calls to EA to get the Energica charging, but it’s gotten better recently.
I haven’t tried the HD on a commercial DC charger yet (I guess another possibility is there’s a problem with DC charger in general)

[DonTom]

The most a LW will draw is about 15kW

And the most the HD Chargepoints will charge at is 15KW. They are the slowest of all CCS chargers. On other CCS chargers, my Energica normally charges at around 25KW when the battery is near the mid-range.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[MVetter]

I've covered this many, many times but what the hell let's do it again.

The stations at H-D dealerships are ChargePoint branded Key Watt CCS stations. The ones CP uses are 50 amp output which, at ~300vdc for Energica means about 14-15kW. HOWEVER these are actually 60 amp units so an Energica will see ~18kW from them.

The LiveWire's algorithm will request up to 80 amps from around 0-40% which maths out to be about 21kW and is equivalent to ~1.5C. It will then drop to 60 amps until around 75% which is around 1C. I suspect there's a correlation between these stations being 60 amp and the LW's 1C rating being also 60 amps, but it's just a theory.

Because the H-D ChargePoint stations are only 60 amps, it will take a LW about an hour and 11 minutes to charge to full. I don't care if H-D says that station will do it in an hour. I have the data and the timestamps that I personally collected so I don't care what anyone "thinks" it does or is supposed to do.

I have an 80% success rate with EA, ChargePoint, and EVgo. There aren't many other brands around me. I have about a 50% success rate with EVconnect so I avoid them.

ChargePoint tends to be the most simple and reliable. EA, while having a garbage app, is fine if you avoid the Signet branded stations. Look for the black side paneling and avoid. Trash. EVgo will work as long as the station isn't broken, and the stations are *often* broken.

[heroto]

MV, do you have any insight regarding the original post in this thread?

[MVetter]

Sorry, no. I've used the Setec units before on Energicas as well, but the LiveWire may just be extra sensitive~

I wonder if I should go try and reassemble that 20 amp unit I have laying around here, though it did try to blow up the last time I used it...

[DonTom]

I've covered this many, many times but what the hell let's do it again.

The stations at H-D dealerships are ChargePoint branded Key Watt CCS stations. The ones CP uses are 50 amp output which, at ~300vdc for Energica means about 14-15kW. HOWEVER these are actually 60 amp units so an Energica will see ~18kW from them.

The LiveWire's algorithm will request up to 80 amps from around 0-40% which maths out to be about 21kW and is equivalent to ~1.5C. It will then drop to 60 amps until around 75% which is around 1C. I suspect there's a correlation between these stations being 60 amp and the LW's 1C rating being also 60 amps, but it's just a theory.

Because the H-D ChargePoint stations are only 60 amps, it will take a LW about an hour and 11 minutes to charge to full. I don't care if H-D says that station will do it in an hour. I have the data and the timestamps that I personally collected so I don't care what anyone "thinks" it does or is supposed to do.

I have an 80% success rate with EA, ChargePoint, and EVgo. There aren't many other brands around me. I have about a 50% success rate with EVconnect so I avoid them.

ChargePoint tends to be the most simple and reliable. EA, while having a garbage app, is fine if you avoid the Signet branded stations. Look for the black side paneling and avoid. Trash. EVgo will work as long as the station isn't broken, and the stations are *often* broken.

I don't recall ever getting 18KW from a HD charger. I usually get 12 and was surprised when I saw it once get up to 15KW. I used to think 12KW was all they could do.

I have my most issues with EA, especially any DC charger here. Do you know if those are "Signet"? I never realized the hardware was different between EA chargers. I try to avoid EA and I don't like to use apps to activate charge stations. They have no card.

I have good luck with EV-Go, but normally have to try at least two times.   EV connect is fairly common here in NV and I only had an issue at Silver Springs. But they were not yet fully activated(but looked like they were). I got an e-mail from EV-connect a week or so ago that says they now should work.  I will ride my Energica here from Auburn next week and see if they really work.

Here is the E-mail I received from EV-Connect:

Alex Seeley (EV Connect)
Jun 4, 2021, 12:32 PM PDT
Donald,

Checking in here!

The station's recently received an upgrade and have been operating as expected. As such, we have closed the ticket and resolved the issue. Don't hesitate to reach out if there is any further support we can offer.

Best Regards,

Alex Seeley
Support Specialist
O: 213-884-4677
evconnect.com

I also like all the Changepoints. But the DC chargers at Cisco Grove will not work with any of my CP cards (but the J-1772 there reads my cards fine). And that is my favorite place to charge between here and Auburn. They used to work. I had to use the CP App the last couple of times there. I reported the issue when I did.

I recently discovered the CCS charger at the Summit (both directions) are free on I-80. I think I will use those from now on. They are CalTrans chargers. And I know it works with my Energica, as I used the east bondone once. You can see my bike and checkin here for Oct. 29, 2020.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[MVetter]

Like I said, black side paneling. Here's the local EA to me that just installed Signet stations: https://www.plugshare.com/location/296759

Rick and Sabrina claimed they were able to get them to work, and the most I've ever gotten was a few minutes before it cancels. Alan Smith and Edwin Hill, who visited recently, report similar issues. The stations don't like to listen to the bikes' amp request or limitations, and as a safety precaution the bikes disconnect because they don't trust what the station is doing.

[DonTom]

Like I said, black side paneling. Here's the local EA to me that just installed Signet stations: https://www.plugshare.com/location/296759

Rick and Sabrina claimed they were able to get them to work, and the most I've ever gotten was a few minutes before it cancels. Alan Smith and Edwin Hill, who visited recently, report similar issues. The stations don't like to listen to the bikes' amp request or limitations, and as a safety precaution the bikes disconnect because they don't trust what the station is doing.

I noticed the "10" rating for that location which means it has been working perfectly for all those who checked-in, including the two Energicas.  If you had an issue there, you should have mentioned it in a check-in so at least they know.

But also, did you notice "busy working on enhancements"   notice and were off line on June 1 for the updates? Perhaps you now should try it again.

Likewise, I want to try the CCS chargers out here. See my chick-ins there.

-Don-  Reno, NV