ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: DonTom on June 01, 2019, 02:12:17 AM
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Some here assumed the reasons for not charging to 100% was just for safety. Well, the new SR/F Owner's Manual (http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/resources/owners-manuals/2020/2020-Zero-Owners-Manual-SRF.pdf) cleared all this up on page 1.3.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'm glad that Zero have spelt out charging best practice in their SRF manual. Their advice used to be to leave the bike plugged in at all times and many of us did exactly that.
The SRF's ability to set SoC limits and charging times is going to be a great help to people wanting their battery to last as long as possible. Letting a hot battery cool a bit before charging wasn't really practical before. The risk of forgetting to go back to the bike was too great.
I wouldn't be surprised if the battery on my DS died as a result of charging it at high temperatures. We had a hot summer and the battery was reaching 40C towards the end of my commute. Plugging it straight in when I got to work probably didn't do it any favours. I didn't realise the battery was getting so hot on my commute until I started monitoring it to see why I was losing power and unable to maintain 70mph despite still having a high SoC. I think there was more to it though; a coupe of bad cells were reported in the logs and I just wonder why they went bad. Water ingress might still have been a root cause but I'll never know...
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The manual in this case is just more specific than the charging guidelines:
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/charging-recommendations/
It still doesn't explain what the reasons are, unlike the OP's statement.
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It still doesn't explain what the reasons are, unlike the OP's statement.
I think the reason is pretty clear: To extend the battery life. My question is, how much? I'd much rather be able to just plug my bike in and have it maintain 100% charge until I unplug it. I realize that may reduce the battery's life, but a 2% reduction in battery life is a very different thing than a 25% reduction. I want to have that information and make my own decisions rather than be at the mercy of firmware that lets the battery discharge when it's still plugged in, whether I want it to or not.
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The manual in this case is just more specific than the charging guidelines:
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/charging-recommendations/
It still doesn't explain what the reasons are, unlike the OP's statement.
The reason I was referring to was "better for your power pack than charging it right after each
ride and having it sit for days between rides at a high state " IOW, for battery longevity, not safety.
However, I do not understand this part:
" going for a few rides before recharging will prolong
your power pack’s life by limiting the amount of time it
spends parked at a high state of charge"
That doesn't make sense to me, unless they mean (but did not say) recharging MUCH later, not right away.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I think the reason is pretty clear: To extend the battery life. My question is, how much? I'd much rather be able to just plug my bike in and have it maintain 100% charge until I unplug it. I realize that may reduce the battery's life, but a 2% reduction in battery life is a very different thing than a 25% reduction. I want to have that information and make my own decisions rather than be at the mercy of firmware that lets the battery discharge when it's still plugged in, whether I want it to or not.
Agreed. It's a hassle to leave the bike at a 60% charge. I will continue to charge to 100% as I have been doing, unless I plan to not use the bike for more than a month or so-- then it may be worth the trouble.
If they said it would void the battery's warranty to continuously charge to 100%, perhaps I would feel differently. And since there is a five year warranty on the batteries, I am still in warranty on both my bikes.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Thank you for clarifying. Yes, in that sense, it is explaining the motivations and what concern the owner should identify.
They do in fact mean recharging as late as possible.
The continuous duration of time spent at or near 100% is the contributing factor to pack longevity concerns. I don't think "how much" can be reasonably communicated by a manufacturer yet without opening them up to (justified or not) lawsuits, so they don't.
I do agree that owners deserve better information *and* control over charging. I'm not sure how we get that without the unofficial manual, but I'm unpaid and demotivated to work on it.
But I will say I make sure that if the bike sits for a long period, the SoC stays between 40 and 85%.
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I think the reason is pretty clear: To extend the battery life. My question is, how much? I'd much rather be able to just plug my bike in and have it maintain 100% charge until I unplug it. I realize that may reduce the battery's life, but a 2% reduction in battery life is a very different thing than a 25% reduction. I want to have that information and make my own decisions rather than be at the mercy of firmware that lets the battery discharge when it's still plugged in, whether I want it to or not.
Agreed. It's a hassle to leave the bike at a 60% charge. I will continue to charge to 100% as I have been doing, unless I plan to not use the bike for more than a month or so-- then it may be worth the trouble.
If they said it would void the battery's warranty to continuously charge to 100%, perhaps I would feel differently. And since there is a five year warranty on the batteries, I am still in warranty on both my bikes.
-Don- Reno, NV
If you're using your bike regularly, then perhaps it's best to charge to 80%. I think a lot of Tesla owners do that and only top up if they are planning a long journey. If 80% gives you enough range for most of your journeys, then you're not keeping it at 100% all the time. Also, it might only take a couple of hours to top up from 80% which is a bit easier to live with.
I try to keep my bike at a 60-70% SoC if I know I won't be using it for a day or two. It is a pain having to be organised enough to top it up in plenty of time before a longer ride though. A number of times I've decided I want to go for a ride only to find the bike won't be fully charged for another three hours...
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I wouldn't be surprised if the battery on my DS died as a result of charging it at high temperatures. We had a hot summer and the battery was reaching 40C towards the end of my commute. Plugging it straight in when I got to work probably didn't do it any favours.
When it is hot, I run a large fan on the bike's battery before I start charging and them leave the fan on as I am charging.
I don't think these bikes are designed for Las Vegas or Phoenix type summers!
And once in a while Reno (or Auburn) will get even hotter than those two places. Just not so continuously.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I wouldn't be surprised if the battery on my DS died as a result of charging it at high temperatures. We had a hot summer and the battery was reaching 40C towards the end of my commute. Plugging it straight in when I got to work probably didn't do it any favours.
When it is hot, I run a large fan on the bike's battery before I start charging and them leave the fan on as I am charging.
I don't think these bikes are designed for Las Vegas or Phoenix type summers!
And once in a while Reno (or Auburn) will get even hotter than those two places. Just not so contentiously.
The page of the manual you cite specifically calls out hot weather as when not to leave the battery fully charged for a long period, though. It indirectly implies that the heat generated during charging is less of a risk than leaving the bike charged in a high ambient temperature.
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I will continue to charge my battery to 100% as it is likely that the battery pack will outlast me and I am sure that it will certainly last well beyond the time that my Zero gets replaced with a new model. ;)
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If you're using your bike regularly, then perhaps it's best to charge to 80%. I think a lot of Tesla owners do that and only top up if they are planning a long journey. If 80% gives you enough range for most of your journeys, then you're not keeping it at 100% all the time. Also, it might only take a couple of hours to top up from 80% which is a bit easier to live with.
I try to keep my bike at a 60-70% SoC if I know I won't be using it for a day or two. It is a pain having to be organised enough to top it up in plenty of time before a longer ride though. A number of times I've decided I want to go for a ride only to find the bike won't be fully charged for another three hours...
With my Tesla Model Three they say to leave it plugged in at all times. But we can set the charge to start at any time and to stop charging at any percentage of charge we set it for. And max range is 310 miles but only use that when needed and set it for 280 miles for any other use. So that's more like charge to 90% and we keep it there.
I assume the cells they use in our Zero's are different than what the Tesla M3 uses.
BTW, on the Tesla the charging times is per location. It uses the GPS. I have mine to start charging at 2300 hrs at my house in Auburn, but 2200 hrs when here in Reno. This is automatic, I touch nothing other than plug it in. Any new location is instant charging.
Some places have lower rates for night charging to EV owners. But can start at different times for a different area. Reno reduces the rate at 2200 hrs, and Auburn does at 2300 hrs.
By any chance does the SR/F have a GPS that I didn't notice? My Tesla uses the GPS to remember many things. For an example, if I fold the mirrors in for a tight spot, the next time I get to that location my mirrors will automatically fold in when I get there.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I will continue to charge my battery to 100% as it is likely that the battery pack will outlast me and I am sure that it will certainly last well beyond the time that my Zero gets replaced with a new model. ;)
That's exactly how I feel about it all.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The SRF does have GPS so perhaps they could do some clever location based charging in a later software update.
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I will continue to charge my battery to 100% as it is likely that the battery pack will outlast me and I am sure that it will certainly last well beyond the time that my Zero gets replaced with a new model. ;)
You make me laugh Richard. You will not alter your charging habits, no matter what! ;-)
Not having a full charge when you want to use the bike is a pain, so I do sympathise with the stance that you and DonTom take.
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I will continue to charge my battery to 100% as it is likely that the battery pack will outlast me and I am sure that it will certainly last well beyond the time that my Zero gets replaced with a new model. ;)
Same. But I do ride it a little most days.
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After reading the SR/F owner's manual, I'm thinking about setting a maximum SOC of 95% when charging at work on a level 2 charger since they say the last 5% is what takes 30 minutes no matter what. When I get home in the evenings and plug it into 110v I'll change the maximum SOC to 100% to start the next day with.
At least that's my game plan until I read or experience otherwise.
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I think the SRF will have much more control over charging similar if not quite as much as the Teslas. So for that model any recommendations they have can easily be used.
The older models have at least one problem. They arc when you unplug them while still charging.
When I got my 17MY bike I saw it showed the SOC on the dash while charging which is a great feature. I started following the "best practices" and was unplugging at 80%. I always unplug and plug into the wall not the bike but that arcing will cause damage at some point.
I think "if" there is a way to set the app to talk to the BMS and shut down charging from the bike unit itself that should be a high priority.
It may help extend the life of the Calex chargers as well.
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The BMS already does this for you behind the scenes. No need to try to go to silly means to preserve a battery that will already last 5+ years in most cases.
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What happens if you turn on bike while charging?
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On my 2019 FX, nothing. It just goes through the normal sequence, but still shows the charging light.
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What happens if you turn on bike while charging?
Motor will not run while charging. It is not possible to ride away while there is charging voltage on any electric motorcycle (AFAIK).
Tesla takes this a steep further. It cannot be driven when the charge door is open.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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I think my SR would still spark with the bike turned on.
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I think my SR would still spark with the bike turned on.
If that's the case something is wrong. Try it.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley. NV
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My experience has been that I have never experienced arcing on my 2012 S, my 2014 S, nor on my 2018 S. I usually plug in and disconnect the the charger power cord at the frame and have done so a number of times while the bike has been charging. ???
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If you let it charge to completion or near competition wont see much arcing, and if you charge at North American household voltages, less arcing than hot-unplugging at 240v.
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This is very complicated, for unclear benefits. Why don't they implement a "eco charge" button that stops charging at 85, and that you can switch off when you have a longer ride to do ? Also, this information without any idea of what you risk if you dont do it is really useless. Plus you can't advertise a long battery life and "zero hassle" bike, then explain in the manual that you need to wakeup in the middle of the night to unplug you bike !
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If you let it charge to completion or near competition wont see much arcing, and if you charge at North American household voltages, less arcing than hot-unplugging at 240v.
That's the point. You can't sub 100% charge without arcing, which goes against the "best practice" of 80% SOC.
I think they saw this as an issue and that's why you can set to whatever you want on the new SRF.
But also remember this is "best practice" just like the change your oil every 3000 miles in a gas car, if you go a little longer the car won't die but it's nice to give it new oil before it thickens up.
The big take away for me is don't fully charge on a very hot day with the bike in the sun as the extra heat "could" cause the liquid electrolyte to expand to a point it could rupture the pouch.
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That's the point. You can't sub 100% charge without arcing, which goes against the "best practice" of 80% SOC.
Just do not unplug at the bike until the power is off elsewhere down the line. IOW, let it arc, but not at the bike.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I was replying to Richard's observation that he'd never seen it arc. Should have quoted that.
Charging to 80% isn't usually my goal. I want about 95%, so my regen works from the start, and I'm going to ride it right away.
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If you let it charge to completion or near competition wont see much arcing, and if you charge at North American household voltages, less arcing than hot-unplugging at 240v.
That makes sense as I almost never put the plug until my display shows 100%. I guess that is why I have never noticed any arcing.
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> This is very complicated, for unclear benefits. Why don't they implement a "eco charge" button that stops charging at 85,...
They do. Energica and SR/f have this feature, more or less.
If you're just going to buy the new version of the bike, you can ignore this thread : - ) I'm making something work on my 14SR and sharing info with people in similar circumstance.
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I avoid the arc issue altogether by using one of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072F9DGRL/
Plug in bike in whatever order is convenient, then start the juice flowing with the remote. When done, shut off the power with the remote, and then unplug however you like.
This lets me leave the cable plugged into the wall in a hard to get to location, and just leave the plug on the garage next to where I park my bike, with the remote next to it.
I can vouch for the one I linked, I've had no issues with charging the Zero for the past year of daily use.
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Not to rain piss on your parade, but you just moved the arc flashing to a relay instead..
It's still there, just hidden from view..
Confirmation on this will be, for you, when the relay fails from breaking the power delivery due to fusing of the connectors.
Depending on the quality of the relay and the load it is trying to break, that will happen anytime between 500 and 5 million switchings.
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Not to rain piss on your parade, but you just moved the arc flashing to a relay instead..
It's still there, just hidden from view..
Confirmation on this will be, for you, when the relay fails from breaking the power delivery due to fusing of the connectors.
Depending on the quality of the relay and the load it is trying to break, that will happen anytime between 500 and 5 million switchings.
The idea is to move the spark away from the bike so when it fails, it's a lot easier to deal with.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Not to rain piss on your parade, but you just moved the arc flashing to a relay instead..
It's still there, just hidden from view..
Confirmation on this will be, for you, when the relay fails from breaking the power delivery due to fusing of the connectors.
Depending on the quality of the relay and the load it is trying to break, that will happen anytime between 500 and 5 million switchings.
The idea is to move the spark away from the bike so when it fails, it's a lot easier to deal with.
-Don- Reno, NV
I'm happy to replace a $25 Belkin Wemo Insight every 500+ charging cycles 😀
And Scotchman's remote is only $15
Way better than replacing some motorcycle component.😀
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I'll chime in that an easier to replace and cheaper part failing regularly is a valid solution to an engineering problem like this. If failure is inevitable or unpredictable, try to make it economical.