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[loggamatt]

New forum member - motorcyclist and electric car owner. I'm considering getting rid of my car as I don't really need two vehicles, and would love to trade my ICE bike in for an electric bike at the same time, but I like touring. I've been trying to convince myself that touring is realistic on an electric bike, but I think they're maybe just not there yet for that.

The closest thing I can see to an electric touring bike is the Zero DSR Black Forest Edition. Though it appears not to have cruise control, which is a big let down on a touring bike.

But the deal breaker is the lack of CCS rapid charging. A 60-70 mile motorway/highway range wouldn't bother me too much if I could combine a leg stretch with a 20-minute recharge on a rapid charger, but a 2-3 hour break on a type 2 charger multiple times per day just isn't realistic for long-distance touring.

I suspect I'm not the only person to have asked this here, but to save me trawling back through historic posts, does anyone have any information on whether Zero are working on including CCS charging on their bikes, and on the DSR in particular? Also, if there are any rumours about general upgrades to the DSR like cruise control?

Thanks!!

[TEV]

New forum member - motorcyclist and electric car owner. I'm considering getting rid of my car as I don't really need two vehicles, and would love to trade my ICE bike in for an electric bike at the same time, but I like touring. I've been trying to convince myself that touring is realistic on an electric bike, but I think they're maybe just not there yet for that.

The closest thing I can see to an electric touring bike is the Zero DSR Black Forest Edition. Though it appears not to have cruise control, which is a big let down on a touring bike.

But the deal breaker is the lack of CCS rapid charging. A 60-70 mile motorway/highway range wouldn't bother me too much if I could combine a leg stretch with a 20-minute recharge on a rapid charger, but a 2-3 hour break on a type 2 charger multiple times per day just isn't realistic for long-distance touring.

I suspect I'm not the only person to have asked this here, but to save me trawling back through historic posts, does anyone have any information on whether Zero are working on including CCS charging on their bikes, and on the DSR in particular? Also, if there are any rumours about general upgrades to the DSR like cruise control?

Thanks!!

https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/

[loggamatt]

https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/

Thanks! I'd seen that article, but the rapid charging world has moved on a bit from 2013, and competitors like Energica and Harley-Davidson have CCS charging on their bikes, so it must be possible now. Maybe Zero were just so burned by their last attempt that they're reluctant to try again? If so, I can see them being left behind by the competitors.

If Energica made a more touring-friendly version of the EsseEsse 9+, I would buy that. It's just a shame that the only manufacturer who has a touring-friendly electric motorcycle doesn't equip it with a touring-friendly charging type.

[TEV]

https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/

Thanks! I'd seen that article, but the rapid charging world has moved on a bit from 2013, and competitors like Energica and Harley-Davidson have CCS charging on their bikes, so it must be possible now. Maybe Zero were just so burned by their last attempt that they're reluctant to try again? If so, I can see them being left behind by the competitors.

If Energica made a more touring-friendly version of the EsseEsse 9+, I would buy that. It's just a shame that the only manufacturer who has a touring-friendly electric motorcycle doesn't equip it with a touring-friendly charging type.

The voltage of the battery on the Zero it's too low (116.4V), the DC Fast Charging Stations are not able to lower their voltage that much.

[Richard230]

Also, Zero is focused on keeping their prices down as much as possible. I suspect that the cost of providing CCS charging just doesn't seem to financially pan out for them at this time. In most areas L2 charging is a lot more available to the general public than CCS and certainly gets a lot more attention in the press when they discuss electric vehicles.

[NEW2elec]

Welcome aboard Loggamatt.
This is really a vast subject but I'll try to hit on a few points that might help you at least see some of the reasons why and differences of approach.
So People have toured the whole country already so it can be done.  You can look up Benswing Rich on You Tube and watch his older videos of Zero Touring.
Now I know the DSR BFE looks like the BMWs from Long Way Round with the big square aluminum luggage but the best Zero for touring would be the SRS.  That luggage will act as 3 parachutes on a bike that needs to be areo.
Now there may be a new DSR type offering in the not too distant future as Zero applied for some name trade marks recently but they may be a year or two down the road.  That extra fork travel does soak up bad roads nicely.

The SRS does have cruise control a Shad luggage rack system (more aero) with an option to have up to 12kw of charging on the Premium bike or 6kw and an extra 3.6kWh tank battery for a bit more didstance between charges.  It's the most aero bike Zero has and still has a more upright seating posistion.  It has 110hp vs 70hp on the DSR to move you and your gear better.  It has a center stand option and a swingarm design that allows for roadside belt changes that you need to remove the swingarm to change on a DSR.

Now when I first got my first Zero I was so in love with the way it rode and the one thing I wanted was to just enjoy that feeling longer.
So from that aspect I see why touring is appealing.  That said I've never done it and I'm very happy doing 60 mile back road rides a few times a week instead of 500 miles in a weekend twice a summer.  No judgement on what you want but that's the way I ride electric.

As for the CCS issue, it really has only caught on as a US standard in the last few years.  Chademo was tried on the early 13s but the stations didn't do like they claimed they would so Zero dropped it.  All the old Leafs used Chademo and it still is huge in Japan.  That being said CCS is growing but most of the country they are few and far between.  As some of the guys on here have used it for long trips I can say it costs more than gas for the same mileage.

But that brings us to Li-ion batteries and there (safe) charging limit of 1C.  So if you don't know, if you have a 14 kWh battery you would only be able to charge it at a rate of 14kWs at a charging station if it's AC or CCS and stay at the 1C rate.  In the future solid state batteries may be able to charge at 10C or faster since they won't have a liquid electrolyte to boil off.  But they won't be here any time soon.  Energica does charge faster but we don't know the long term effects for yet.

At this point 1hr is about as fast as you can charge a battery from 0% to 100%.  The other tricky part is the batteries charge slower from 0%-20% and from 80%-100% for battery cell safety reasons.  Ben talks about this alot in his videos.  You want to stay in that sweet spot of 20%-80% then unplug and go.

Zero has taken the approach of having the highest AC charging available on any EM since there are far more AC chargers than CCS chargers in the country now.  As that stat changes I'm sure Zero will move in that direction but it will require a full battery redesign as the minimum voltage has to be over 250V (I think, maybe just 200V) and that is a major move.

I would say go test ride a SRS and see what you think.  Maybe keep a gas touring bike if that is something you love to do but want electric for daily riding (you'll love it).  You may find that stopping for longer periods of time to charge gives you an opportunity to meet people and see more of where your touring giving you less miles per trip but a more full experience of traveling.

Good luck and do give it a test ride if you can.

[DonTom]

In most areas L2 charging is a lot more available to the general public than CCS and certainly gets a lot more attention in the press when they discuss electric vehicles.

If the vehicle can accept CCS, it can also accept J-1772 (L2).

CCS vehicles can also accept  L1 (120 VAC)  and  L2 (240 VAC) outlets with a granny cable.

Its just that the AC charging uses the charger in the vehicle and DC charging is direct to the battery. Plugs into the vehicle the same way.

In some areas, such I-80 between here and Auburn, there are more CCS charge stations than J1772. The Energica can use either. I just wish it had 6 KW AC charging, it only does 3KW which is only a little more than twice as fast as Zero's OBC.  Out here in the Reno area, L2 is a lot more common, and almost always free,  but we still have CCS charge stations, five locations here  in Reno , and one in Carson City, Garnerville, Fernley & Fallon.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[NEW2elec]

That's the key, Harley and Energica have CCS but only 3kw AC charging so 12kw of AC charging on a Zero is better for "most" of the country.

[DonTom]

But that brings us to Li-ion batteries and there (safe) charging limit of 1C.  So if you don't know, if you have a 14 kWh battery you would only be able to charge it at a rate of 14kWs at a charging station if it's AC or CCS and stay at the 1C rate.

The 11.7 KWH (usable) lithium-ion polymer battery on my Energica can charge at around  25 KW, more than 2C.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[loggamatt]

Wow... thanks guys! This is really informative and useful.

So I probably should have said that I live in the UK, which may bias me away from type 2 to CCS. I actually think (as a car EV owner) that it is starting to become easier to find CCS while on a journey here than it is to find type 2. Type 2 chargers tend to be in public car parks (parking lots), hotels, places where people expect you to leave your vehicle charging for a long time. Whereas CCS will more often be in locations where you’d just stop off quickly, like restaurants or motorway rest areas. Therefore, I think CCS will usually be the more convenient option when on a long trip.

I also think that trend is going to continue because new CCS infrastructure is going in all the time here. So even if a Zero bike was just as easy to charge now, would it still be in another 5 years?

I take your point that, in reality, charging times wouldn’t be vastly different anyway up to 80%, but I just think CCS future-proofs you more for charger availability.

I think this probably points me in the direction of Energica. A shame though, as I do admit that the SRS looks bloody gorgeous, and having just looked up the SHAD luggage for it that does seem a nice option. I also would much rather have a belt drive than a chain drive as winter riding in the UK eats chains for breakfast because of all the road salt.

[DonTom]

That's the key, Harley and Energica have CCS but only 3kw AC charging so 12kw of AC charging on a Zero is better for "most" of the country.

Harley LW only has 1.5 KW. Only good for home charging.

Yeah, I wish my Energica had 6 KW charging. 12 KW is somewhat useless here in the USA, because most J-1772's here can only handle around 7 KW. 

-Don-  Reno, NV

[NEW2elec]

Loggamatt, well yeah the UK does make a difference.     Were you planning on staying in the UK or going over to Europe? 
I think that Zero or Energica are both great bikes but do test ride them to make sure the fit and ride characteristics (weight) meet your needs as they are quite different on both brands.  Electric truly is a great choice in the UK.

I agree that CCS will be the "near" future but I predict very very fast charge times in the later future.

Dontom: I wrote later that Energica does charge faster but long term real world battery effects aren't "known" yet.  Will most likely be fine but it is an *.
And yes Harley is at 1.3kW for AC that slipped my mind.  Very bad choice on Harley's part for a $30k bike.

[Crissa]

I thin Harley made a conscious choice for the future.  AC chargers are big and bulky.

We're just not in that future yet.

-Crissa

[Auriga]

I would be surprised if we don't see a CCS tank for the FST line come out in the next couple years. Zero would have to have a highly efficient DC DC converter to lower the battery voltage(or a new battery with a higher voltage), but there's nothing stopping them from doing that. I don't know of any existing parts though, so they'd probably have to spend significant time and money developing and testing it to make it backwards compatible. 

CCS might be the future, but Level 2 has significant advantages in ease and cost of installation, and is a lot more common.

[Crissa]

'Efficient' and 'DC-DC' and 'CCS': No two mix.

-Crissa