ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Erasmo on January 21, 2016, 06:44:03 PM
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So it has become time to start spinning up the wheels for my DS '15 fast charging project.
I've planned a lot with information on this forum but it is hard to keep track of all kinds of topics where the information is and sometimes it is hard to find the relevant information in the thousands of posts. If it all goes well I'll try to condense my findings in a post for the knowledge base.
Anyway some questions on which conformation or more information would easy my mind a bit.
- For the aux charging port the fuse is 100A if I'm correct?
- Fast charging cut off is something I haven't found much about, it also seems harder to find because of course batteries are more closely guarded secret. Yesterday while charging i note 112V at 80%, is this the right voltage? At what voltage do the official, after market or diy chargers lower the amperage to on-board power levels?
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- The owner's manual on page 5.25 for 2015 lists 100A for the Charge Fuse (this is enough for 10kW input).
- I couldn't give you solid parameters on that, because I have a 2013, but generally charging seems to self-correct after 85% charge, and 100% often measures as 116V. Hopefully someone can provide better parameters.
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I'm curious how the batteries would handle 125A, but at this point better keep it at 100A for now.
Normally you'd take 80% of the battery as cut off rate for fast charging, but as we know what we see on the display isn't the real percentage but with some safeguards. I'm curious what voltage Zero set for it self when they still offered Chademo.
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The "end run" around the charge fuse is to connect to the battery-side leads to the Sevcon controller. But yes, it's wiser to stick with that port for a while, and not push up against the C-rate without further engineering.
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The Farasis cells in the 2014 bikes support charging at 1C according to the data sheet attached. That data sheet also shows you the appropriate charge characteristics to use - CC/CV, voltage, charge termination etc. I follow that with my CAN controlled TC chargers (i.e. 41.5v x 28 cells = 116.2v) and believe that the same protocol is followed in the Delta-Qs and Elcons - others can confirm.
The cells in the 2015 bikes are slightly different (27A v 25A) but you would expect the C rate on charge to probably be the same. The 2016s however have a higher discharge rate 10C versus 7C of 2014 cells) so there may be scope for a higher C rate on charging the 2016 packs. If you can find and post the data sheets for either the 2015 or 2016 cells many of us would be very happy to see them!
The Zero Chademo setup I believe had a 125A fuse.
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The Zero Chademo setup I believe had a 125A fuse.
I wondered how they could offer fast DC charging on 2013 bikes. Do you know whether the setup replaces the circuit it guards or is the stock capable of those amps by default?
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The Zero Chademo setup I believe had a 125A fuse.
I wondered how they could offer fast DC charging on 2013 bikes. Do you know whether the setup replaces the circuit it guards or is the stock capable of those amps by default?
I thought the Chademo was only for the 2014 but not sure. I believe an additional circuit was installed separately from the fast charge circuit which was constrained to 100A on the 2014 S/SR/DS bikes and even lower than that (30A) on the 2013.
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CHAdeMO was only delivered for 2013 bikes. No 2014 CHAdeMO kits were ever made or installed.
Believe me, I tried to buy one.
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The Farasis cells in the 2014 bikes support charging at 1C according to the data sheet attached. That data sheet also shows you the appropriate charge characteristics to use - CC/CV, voltage, charge termination etc. I follow that with my CAN controlled TC chargers (i.e. 41.5v x 28 cells = 116.2v) and believe that the same protocol is followed in the Delta-Qs and Elcons - others can confirm.
The cells in the 2015 bikes are slightly different (27A v 25A) but you would expect the C rate on charge to probably be the same. The 2016s however have a higher discharge rate 10C versus 7C of 2014 cells) so there may be scope for a higher C rate on charging the 2016 packs. If you can find and post the data sheets for either the 2015 or 2016 cells many of us would be very happy to see them!
The Zero Chademo setup I believe had a 125A fuse.
Your fast charger uses the little bus readout next to the auxiliary charging port I assume? Anyway I've send Farasis an email asking if they're willing to supply a data sheet.
The "end run" around the charge fuse is to connect to the battery-side leads to the Sevcon controller. But yes, it's wiser to stick with that port for a while, and not push up against the C-rate without further engineering.
Maybe later, if I can manage to pull of 100A charging that already would be great for a fast charging solution.
CHAdeMO was only delivered for 2013 bikes. No 2014 CHAdeMO kits were ever made or installed.
Believe me, I tried to buy one.
Oh what I'd give for a nice neat OEM solution, I'd be happy to take some of their remaining stock of their shelf.
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My TC charger doesn't connect to the Zero CANBUS but it's voltage can be altered in increments of, 0.1v using Batrium software and a CANBUS cable. Other chargers such as Delta-Q and Elcons use preset voltage and charge algorithms that Zero or the retailer has configured.
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CHAdeMO was only delivered for 2013 bikes. No 2014 CHAdeMO kits were ever made or installed.
Believe me, I tried to buy one.
Oh what I'd give for a nice neat OEM solution, I'd be happy to take some of their remaining stock of their shelf.
Wouldn't we all! If only there was such a thing as "remaining stock."
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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My TC charger doesn't connect to the Zero CANBUS but it's voltage can be altered in increments of, 0.1v using Batrium software and a CANBUS cable. Other chargers such as Delta-Q and Elcons use preset voltage and charge algorithms that Zero or the retailer has configured.
Ah yes like that. If I interpreter your data sheet correctly you should be able to pump 100A in the battery up to 80%(112V) without a problem.
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As it's CC CV the charger should be set to between 116.2V to 117.6V (4.15V-4.20V x 28 cells). When the charger detects that the battery is nearly full it will progressively reduce the current down to the termination charge (250mA in the data sheet, 0.5A on each of my two chargers). On my TC charger it charges to approx 116V then reduces the current over a 5-15 minute period.
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Bike is in the shop now:
(http://i.imgur.com/9qLsi8t.jpg?1)
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Quick follow up question. There are more connectors in the Anderson plug than the DC power ones, but if I'm right those aren't used for the thirth party chargers?
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The bike is almost done, tomorrow we're going to test how it works ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/W2a6nf8.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/F0YvRKm.jpg?1)
That is one hefty cable they used.
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Nice! Looking forward to hearing about testing. Where is the CHAdeMO inlet?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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On the right side of the top case, you can see the four screws.
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This looks really good! Is this entirely a custom installation? Any provision for case removal and detachment?
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You can just remove the case like any regular top case, however because I ride long distances weekly it will stay on.
This build is indeed a bespoke one but now it all has been figured out and after testing it should be much easier to reproduce.
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Well today it was finally time for the planned tests however the DS decided to produce a contacter error before we could even start :(
It could be the recently installed power tank, the downpour that got moisture somewhere or the installation but I'm going to wait until tomorrow to resume troubleshooting since I just got home and it is well past bedtime.
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Better luck for tomorrow Erasmo. I'm very interested to hear how it all goes.
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This morning I went to power on the bike and heard that sweet clicketyclick again when turning on contact or starting a charge :D
So I guess it had to do something with the downpour after all...
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Anyway here's a quick picture of the innards:
(http://i.imgur.com/RKUC5Zk.jpg?1)
After testing it will be tidied up of course.
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Wow, that looks like you have giving it some serious thoughts!
And, is it working completely??
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Wow, that looks like you have giving it some serious thoughts!
And, is it working completely??
I haven't tested it yet, it is still rainy here and I want to wait until it is dry. Due to work the next possibility will be next Friday at the first. I pulled the logs and we'll see what they will say.
The contactor related error codes are gone, but strangely enough it now displays a code 57 which isn't in the manual?
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Also another pic from the inside of the box:
(http://i.imgur.com/d4bWs3U.jpg?1)
I'm trying to make sense of the log of my bike with this tool: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5020.msg34350#msg34350 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5020.msg34350#msg34350)
But I can't make it work somehow. If I can mail my log to somebody that has the script working that would be great.
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I had some success running it the other day. By all means post your logs on this thread and if I don't get round to running them through I'm sure someone else will.
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Thanks already. The file is in the attachment :)
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The results are a bit disappointing I'm afraid:
Zero MBB log
Serial number b'2015_mbb_ca1a29_00460'
VIN b'538SD7Z20FCB04743'
Firmware rev. 40
Board rev. 3
Model b'DS'
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Perhaps you can try the other option in the Zero app and download the MBB and Battery logs? The app says it takes about ten minutes and you end up with two 128Kb files. I've attached the results from when I tried it as log.txt and log1.txt
Here are some instructions explaining what I did to run the utility:
1. Download and install the Windows Python client 3.5.1 from here: https://www.python.org/downloads/ (https://www.python.org/downloads/)
2. Create a folder on your C:\ drive called py
3. In that folder create a file called py.bat with the following contents:
cd C:\Users\<UserName>\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python35-32\
pause
python zero_log_parser.py c:\py\Erasmo.bin -o c:\py\Erasmo.txt
pause
Replace <UserName> with your own Username on your PC. You should be able to browse to the relevant folder and find a file called python.exe - just so you know you've got the path correct.
4. Copy your .bin file to c:\py and rename it to something useful.
5. Edit your py.bat file to change the Erasmo.bin and Erasmo.txt files accordingly.
6. Don't forget the save your .bat file
7. Double-click on your py.bat file
8. You should get a screen like the attached screenshot
9. Open the txt file in your favourite text editor. I like Notepad++.
I'm sure there is probably a more elegant way of doing this, but this is what worked for me. I hope this helps and good luck with that CHAdeMO kit! :-)
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Another item to consider is the high cost for occasional use of CHAdeMO. I had a Leaf for over 4 years and only used DC about 6 times and still have a RAV4 EV and have only used DC twice to test it out in 4 months. Even with a 42 kWh battery to stay at 125 amps longer (almost 50 kW) the cost is higher than gas. On a ZERO with only ~12 kW the cost would be quite high with EVGo and many other chargers. I have a 60 amp EVSE at home so my RAV4 EV charges at 10 kW at home. A J1772 can even get that high at a few public chargers but most max out at 6-7 kW. Much of my travel is away from the CA coast so DC is not available. I may be better off with J1772 unless a combo 10 kW AC - 12 kW DC unit becomes available. I hope DC rates in CA drop to reasonable levels for occasional use and become available away from the coast.
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The results are a bit disappointing I'm afraid:
Zero MBB log
Serial number b'2015_mbb_ca1a29_00460'
VIN b'538SD7Z20FCB04743'
Firmware rev. 40
Board rev. 3
Model b'DS'
---
Perhaps you can try the other option in the Zero app and download the MBB and Battery logs? The app says it takes about ten minutes and you end up with two 128Kb files. I've attached the results from when I tried it as log.txt and log1.txt
Here are some instructions explaining what I did to run the utility:
1. Download and install the Windows Python client 3.5.1 from here: https://www.python.org/downloads/ (https://www.python.org/downloads/)
2. Create a folder on your C:\ drive called py
3. In that folder create a file called py.bat with the following contents:
cd C:\Users\<UserName>\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python35-32\
pause
python zero_log_parser.py c:\py\Erasmo.bin -o c:\py\Erasmo.txt
pause
Replace <UserName> with your own Username on your PC. You should be able to browse to the relevant folder and find a file called python.exe - just so you know you've got the path correct.
4. Copy your .bin file to c:\py and rename it to something useful.
5. Edit your py.bat file to change the Erasmo.bin and Erasmo.txt files accordingly.
6. Don't forget the save your .bat file
7. Double-click on your py.bat file
8. You should get a screen like the attached screenshot
9. Open the txt file in your favourite text editor. I like Notepad++.
I'm sure there is probably a more elegant way of doing this, but this is what worked for me. I hope this helps and good luck with that CHAdeMO kit! :-)
Tomorrow I have access to the bike again but I fear that the fault code needs to be reset by a dealer.
Another item to consider is the high cost for occasional use of CHAdeMO. I had a Leaf for over 4 years and only used DC about 6 times and still have a RAV4 EV and have only used DC twice to test it out in 4 months. Even with a 42 kWh battery to stay at 125 amps longer (almost 50 kW) the cost is higher than gas. On a ZERO with only ~12 kW the cost would be quite high with EVGo and many other chargers. I have a 60 amp EVSE at home so my RAV4 EV charges at 10 kW at home. A J1772 can even get that high at a few public chargers but most max out at 6-7 kW. Much of my travel is away from the CA coast so DC is not available. I may be better off with J1772 unless a combo 10 kW AC - 12 kW DC unit becomes available. I hope DC rates in CA drop to reasonable levels for occasional use and become available away from the coast.
I'm planning to use mine at least two times a week. But what are the rates in California?
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$14.95/month + 10 cents a minute with $29 cancellation fee
or
$4.95/charge + 20 cents a minute with no cancellation fee
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I'm not sure those logs are much use by the way. They seem to cut off at 128KB, have some spurious dates and not the latest entries.
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Another item to consider is the high cost for occasional use of CHAdeMO.
+1, and I'd add pretty much any commercial EV charging station. Sure, they'll recharge your vehicle, but what they really are is an ATM that you put way too many dollars into for a few measly kWh of power. They have to amortize the cost of the equipment as well as its installation, after all, and the owner of the equipment as well as the owner of the property it's installed on want their piece of the pie....and since electricity is so cheap, it had better be a BIG piece of the very small pie or they won't be motivated to install it. Do the math, the markup those commercial recharging points charge is ridiculous.
That's why I'm a big fan of the 14-50 outlet. I'm more than happy to double the price of the electricity for someone who's installed one and is willing to let me recharge. But there are no surcharges required for big corporations to install their expensive equipment. I also suspect it will be a better crowd of people -- mostly our type of people!
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I'm trying to make sense of the log of my bike with this tool: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5020.msg34350#msg34350 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5020.msg34350#msg34350)
But I can't make it work somehow. If I can mail my log to somebody that has the script working that would be great.
There's nothing you're doing wrong there - a few people have encountered this.
That parser borks out when you feed it a log file that wraps around on itself. It looks like Zero stores the log entries as a ring buffer and just dumps this straight into the exported log file. I've been meaning to fix it but have just been a little short on time.
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Perhaps you can try the other option in the Zero app and download the MBB and Battery logs? The app says it takes about ten minutes and you end up with two 128Kb files. I've attached the results from when I tried it as log.txt and log1.txt
I'm looking for the other log options in the app but they don't seem to be there? When I press email motorcycle logs 1 only get one option..
I'm trying to make sense of the log of my bike with this tool: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5020.msg34350#msg34350 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5020.msg34350#msg34350)
But I can't make it work somehow. If I can mail my log to somebody that has the script working that would be great.
There's nothing you're doing wrong there - a few people have encountered this.
That parser borks out when you feed it a log file that wraps around on itself. It looks like Zero stores the log entries as a ring buffer and just dumps this straight into the exported log file. I've been meaning to fix it but have just been a little short on time.
No problem your work already has done a lot. Together with Bonkers' instructions I can get something done but a lot of the new logfile is still incomprehensible for me.
$14.95/month + 10 cents a minute with $29 cancellation fee
or
$4.95/charge + 20 cents a minute with no cancellation fee
That is quite expensive yes. Here there are two different pricing scenarios, on per per minute with a €0,35 starting rate and another network lets you pay per kWh, you can choose to get a monthly subscription which more than halves the cost or get unlimited access for €100/month.
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Perhaps you can try the other option in the Zero app and download the MBB and Battery logs? The app says it takes about ten minutes and you end up with two 128Kb files. I've attached the results from when I tried it as log.txt and log1.txt
I'm looking for the other log options in the app but they don't seem to be there? When I press email motorcycle logs 1 only get one option..
By the way, if you're only getting one option in the app to email the logs, I think the app might not be connected to the bike. Does your screen look like this?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160301/9767488ffb5841cf8b29a633694f09bc.jpg)
If so, close the app, go into your Bluetooth settings, reconnect to the bike, launch the app and you should see another setting to get both logs with an estimated time of 12 minutes (i think). Leave your phone by the bike while you're doing this.
I hope that helps.
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Did you do your first DC fast charge already?
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Sadly not: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5547.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5547.0)
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Update: Fiddled with the software and I expect to do another attempt this weekend. I'm keeping the amperage low, primary goal is to check how the connection with the charger holds up.
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Best of luck mate! [emoji106]
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As bad as EV Go is at pricing, i am afraid that it is the wave of the future. Early on, there were so few EVs on the road that it wasn't economically feasible for someone to put in a charger.
With more EVs every day, it will become more necessary. I believe that early adopters put them in and took advantage of tax breaks. There are several hundred public charging stations
here in Vegas, and with the exception of a few Blink chargers and the new EV Go locations, they are all free. My guess is that there will now / soon be a greater financial incentive for
Pay to charge stations. I read recently ( insideevs.com ? ) that September was either highest month yet for EV sales.
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Had a few errors compiling the firmware last time, got updated libraries from the shop and it seems to work now.
New test is planned for Friday.
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As bad as EV Go is at pricing, i am afraid that it is the wave of the future. Early on, there were so few EVs on the road that it wasn't economically feasible for someone to put in a charger.
With more EVs every day, it will become more necessary. I believe that early adopters put them in and took advantage of tax breaks. There are several hundred public charging stations
here in Vegas, and with the exception of a few Blink chargers and the new EV Go locations, they are all free. My guess is that there will now / soon be a greater financial incentive for
Pay to charge stations. I read recently ( insideevs.com ? ) that September was either highest month yet for EV sales.
OK, so looks like these days, ChargePoint and Blink also have Chademo in my area. $5/hr or 21c/kwh is a lot more reasonable than NRG EVGO (former Enron) rates.
(if you are curious of the origins of NRG, start here https://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/26/nrg-sells-evgo-fast-charge-network/ )