ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: amahoser on February 23, 2013, 07:18:47 PM
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Here's a mini review of the 2013 Zero S
First off... what a FANTASTIC bike.
Last year I test rode the 2012 Zero S and was a bit underwhelmed by its performance. I loved the idea of an electric bike but I didn't want to give up real bike performance in order to get it. Although I was tempted, I decided to pass on the 2012. Glad I waited! The 13 S is everything I wanted in a electric bike.
Power and Performance
Off the line, the power delivery is still a bit gentle. Not as slow to take off like the 12 but still a bit soft. But almost immediatley after the initial take off, the power just builds and builds. Instant torque and and no transmission is awesome! I was incredibly impressed with the power and speed of the bike on my initial test ride. But after putting a few miles on the bike I realized that its the power delivery that I am most impressed with. Whatever speed you are at, if you want to accelerate, just hit the gas.... no dropping down a couple of gears... just hit the gas and hold on! Its so different from a gas bike... different and better. Come out of a corner and hit the gas and the bike practically launches out! Its amazing. I cannot stress how fun this bike is to ride. Its a different way of riding a motorcycle!
Suspension.
As delivered the ride is stiff. Bumps and bot dots are a bit jarring. I will play with the suspension settings and see if I can dial it out while still keeping the crisp handling.
Brakes
The front brake is great. Plently of stopping power and decent feel. The rear brake feels a bit wooden. You need to press on the rear brake very hard in order for it to work. At low speeds, I am able to intentionally lock up the rear brake but it takes a LO of brake effort. Might need to break in a bit more.... time will tell. But regen braking is awesome!!!
Controls.
Not having a clutch and shifter is weird to me but it didn't take as long as I though to get used to it. I still sometimes reach of the clutch and sometimes try to shift. The mirrors, based on customer complains was redesigned on longer arms and in my opinion is now too long. They stick out quite a bit past my hands which makes lane splitting harder. I had Harlan replace the mirrors with 2012 mirrors which in my opinion are perfect. Kinda wish the sport/eco switch was on the hadlebars. I like swapping to sport when I need a burst of speed but mostly, I can leave it in ECO for commuting.
Range
The range is PERFECT for my commuting needs. I work freelance in Los Angeles so I can work anywhere. I live in Burbank and mostly, the longest commute I have is to Culver city. Without TRYING to be conservative I can easily make it to Culver City and back on one charge. IF there is no traffic and I ride like I normally do, the 28 mile commute will consume just about half my bars. If there is traffic... almost all the time! I can get a lot more range.
This bike, for my needs is the perfect commuter!
Jose Soriano
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Getting on my new 2013 FX yesterday was a great experience. In the short riding I did near Hollywood Electrics it exceeded my expectations! ;D Acceleration was fantastic and I never took it out of ECO mode (I don't want to be in heavy traffic the first time I try SPORT mode).
I can already feel how this bike is going to be in the dirt, sand, & rocks.
So far, Zero isn't marketing the FX as a serious dirt bike ( ???), more like an "urban dirt" assault bike, but I think they will change their minds about that.
Trikester
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Congratulations Jose. I think the 2013 models are all a great choice for an electric motorcycle. :)
I think you will find that the FastAce suspension up loosens quite a bit after about 1000 miles. When new the seals on the front forks in particular seem very tight. My guess is that any settings that you decide upon now will need to be revised after a couple of thousand miles. So give the suspension a little time and I think you will like it better then.
Personally, I like the slow take-off of my 2012 S. Mostly because I do a lot of shopping with my bike and that means slow-speed parking lot trolling. Having a slow throttle response below 10 mph seems to work well in a congested environment.
How much of a difference do you find in performance between Eco and Sport modes? If I had my way, I would prefer the Eco mode regen effect to operate when the brakes are used in Sport mode, while keeping the Sport mode regen drag when the throttle is closed. I suspect that the rear brakes are designed to feel "wooden" because Zero feels that they just supplement regen braking and will not need to be relied upon much for normal braking. I noticed that Terry (offthegrid) removed his rear brake entirely as he says that his regen (with his size 6 controller) is so strong that he doesn't need a rear brake.
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Personally, I like the slow take-off of my 2012 S. Mostly because I do a lot of shopping with my bike and that means slow-speed parking lot trolling. Having a slow throttle response below 10 mph seems to work well in a congested environment.
All you need is a linear throttle response. I can creep my Empulse at slower than a walking pace very easily. Or I can whack open the throttle and it takes off like a rocket. Predictable response is key for control, you don't need to put an arbitrary limit on the curve for that.
I thought their primary purpose for doing it was because riders weren't aware of how much energy they were using with sprint starts so it took the edge off of a fairly major power drain. At least that's what the dealer told me when I test rode a 2012.
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All you need is a linear throttle response. /../ Predictable response is key for control, you don't need to put an arbitrary limit on the curve for that.
Indeed, as long as it is predictable one will get used to it. I'm pretty sure I would prefer the linear setup - power to the user!
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Hi Flar,
...Or I can whack open the throttle and it takes off like a rocket.
Is it also a rocket if you do it in the highest gear from 0RMP?
The "soft start" of the Zero PMAC motor is in my opinion a technical limit not a setting limit.
The motor type has a dependency between rotation and voltage => you will always start with 0V and reach your top voltage at the nominative rotation. More rotation will need field weakening it's start at ~3500-4000RPM
So if you start you will have 420A but ~0V(0KW) .. 5V(2.1KW) ... 10V(4.2KW) .. 15V(6.3KW) ... => So the 21KW at a 2012 S/DS will only be at 3500-4000RMP.
This is the reason why we discuss of gears or not. If you can life with a slow start the gearbox is needlessly complicated if you want a rocked from the start a gear box helps.
Certainly a powerful motor as the 2013 and the Empulse has will give you a more Rocket feeling from the start.
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Getting on my new 2013 FX yesterday was a great experience. In the short riding I did near Hollywood Electrics it exceeded my expectations! ;D Acceleration was fantastic and I never took it out of ECO mode (I don't want to be in heavy traffic the first time I try SPORT mode).
I can already feel how this bike is going to be in the dirt, sand, & rocks.
So far, Zero isn't marketing the FX as a serious dirt bike ( ???), more like an "urban dirt" assault bike, but I think they will change their minds about that.
Trikester
I'd love to hear how you (any FX-owner of course) experience the difference of riding with one vs two batteries setup on the FX..
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I think you will find that the FastAce suspension up loosens quite a bit after about 1000 miles. When new the seals on the front forks in particular seem very tight. My guess is that any settings that you decide upon now will need to be revised after a couple of thousand miles. So give the suspension a little time and I think you will like it better then.
Im almost halfway to 1000 miles now :) I was planning on waiting until I got used to the bike before playing with the suspension. Yeah, I can wait until 1000 miles which will probably happen next weekend. I do have some experience with Fast Ace, My modified Madass 125 (now with a 160cc motor) has an aftermarket Fast Ace rear shock and its an awesome shock, The range of adjustment for rebound and compression is awesome. Hopefully the Fast Ace on the Zero is similar
Having a slow throttle response below 10 mph seems to work well in a congested environment.
I have to say. The Zero, even in sport mode, is the easiest parking lot bike I have every ridden. Coming to a stop, the bike is so light and balanced, I can leave my foot on the pegs for 5 seconds or so after I have stopped before putting a foot down. At stop signs, I can perform a full stop, look for traffic and then take off without dropping a foot. In parking lots, the throttle response is so smooth I can do full lock turns without dragging the rear brake. Usually, on a bigger ICE bike, in order to do full lock turns, I drag the rear brake, slip the clutch and give it a bit of throttle. The Zero is by far the easiest bike to maneuver in a tight environment! I assume the lightness of the bike, plus the electric motor that can operate at 1 rpm makes the difference!
How much of a difference do you find in performance between Eco and Sport modes? If I had my way, I would prefer the Eco mode regen effect to operate when the brakes are used in Sport mode, while keeping the Sport mode regen drag when the throttle is closed.
Since the app allows you to tailor ECO mode's torque values and regen settings, ECO can be set to whatever you want. However, Sport mode isn't adjustable. In my opinion that was a mistake. I would love to be able to tailor Sport Mode's regen settings. Right now I believe my ECO mode is set to 40% of maximum torque, 100% regen when brakes are applied and %60 regen when throttle is closed. I also upped the speed limit for ECO mode to 76mph instead of 70mph so I don't get run over on the freeways! I'm not sure what the Sport mode's regen settings are. Unfortunatley my Android devices are NOT compatible with the ZERO app. The app requires android 4.0 (or something close to that) or higher and my phone is 2.3. I have a Nexus 7 Tablet with 4.2.2 but I guess the app isn't compatible with tablets. Its a bit annoying since I don't want to upgrade my phone.
I suspect that the rear brakes are designed to feel "wooden" because Zero feels that they just supplement regen braking and will not need to be relied upon much for normal braking.
Highly doubt a manufacturer would intentionally make a rear brake feel wooden even with regen. The regen effect (in my opinion) doesn't do nearly enough in a panic stop. Maybe with a size 6 but with the OEM setup I still need rear brakes. Im pretty confident that the brake caliper should be good enough. It might be that that pads need an inordinate amount of time to break in or maybe a different pad material is in order. I still have hope that the rear brake will get better with a bit more time but if it doesn't, its not horrible. The rear brake works, it just takes a lot of pedal pressure.
Jose Soriano
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I just want to point out with regards to my previous comment about gentle start. The bike ain't slow! On a 2012, I felt that the power delivery was TOO slow from a start. The 13 has more than enough power to get you into trouble. Starting from a stop and pinning the throttle the bike takes off brisk but gentlemanly... but almost immediately, the torque kicks in its like the nice gentleman just turned into a raving lunatic! Its Fun. I would love to test ride a Empulse just to see how good the acceleration is at the low gears. But the reasons I chose the Zero over the Empulse was the reasons I wanted an electric bike... Enough range for my commuting needs and almost zero maintenance. Add a gearbox and a water cooled motor and now zero maintenance just turned into scheduled maintenance. I cannot take advantage of the Empulse's great suspension and brakes, its transmision and watercooled engine because when I do ride the canyons, my usual canyon run is anywhere from 150 mile to 200 miles. I have my ICE bikes for that.
Jose Soriano
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Right now I believe my ECO mode is set to 40% of maximum torque, 100% regen when brakes are applied and %60 regen when throttle is closed.
When Harlan was demonstrating the iPod programming of the FX he set the regen to 100% as shown by the slider on the screen. However, that was 100% of the built in max limit. So I asked him what the actual regen setting was at 100% on the slider and he flipped to something else on the screen that showed it was 25% or it might have been 30% or 35%. I was so busy getting my almost 78 year old brain to absorb everything quickly that I don't remember for sure what the max was, but it definitely was not 100% of the max drive output.
On the subject of 2013 FX acceleration in ECO mode - Wow! On my 2012 DS I wouldn't ride in traffic in ECO mode until Harlan programmed out the acceleration limit, so it was the same in either mode. I didn't feel safe in traffic with that slower ECO mode acceleration. Not so with the 2013, I felt very comfortable with the acceleration in ECO mode even when pulling a right turn from stop in front of close oncoming traffic on Santa Monica Blvd (at noon time!). Oh, and a fire engine was coming also (no siren). :o
Whoopee!
Trikester
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Unfortunatley my Android devices are NOT compatible with the ZERO app. The app requires android 4.0 (or something close to that) or higher and my phone is 2.3. I have a Nexus 7 Tablet with 4.2.2 but I guess the app isn't compatible with tablets. Its a bit annoying since I don't want to upgrade my phone.
I suspect the Zero app would work fine on a tablet, provided that it supports the version of the OS Zero needs.
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Regarding your rear brake: Is the rear caliper a Nissan unit? If that is the case there should be softer brake pads available once you determine the size and specifications of the caliper. Most Nissan rear brake calipers are a single-piston sliding-pin type and softer pads will be available from a number of after-market brake pad manufacturers. Expect to pay around $35 for a new set of pads.
The calipers on my 2012 Zero also need a lot of stomping to get them to exert some influence on the rear brake disc. Most of the time I rely on the front brake to slow me down and I don't expect much from my rear brake any more. It really feels like it has wooden pucks for brake pads. However, my caliper is made by Hayes and I am not sure where softer pads can be found for those brakes. If you have Nissan brakes, you should be able to source softer pads from just about any motorcycle accessory outlet. HH pads are typically the softest street compound.
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ProtoMech,
I thought so too. On Google's Play website, the Zero App says that it works for 4.0.3 and up. My tablet is 4.2.2 but it isn't compatible.
Richard,
That is what I am waiting for. I assume you meant Nissin units and I believe they are. HH pads you are referring to are EBC sintered pads. They provide better stopping power and higher friction rating vs their organic line (FA). HH pads wear rotors out quicker than FA pads but have great stopping power. Traditionally, I used organic pads on rear and sintered pads on the front. This combination results in the feel I want on MOST bikes. But considering the lack of bite on the rear pads, the HH pads are what I was thinking of.
Jose Soriano
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Hi Flar,
...Or I can whack open the throttle and it takes off like a rocket.
Is it also a rocket if you do it in the highest gear from 0RMP?
I was referring to both behaviors being available in 1st gear. That same gear that can achieve impressive 0-60 times is also capable of creeping along. There was no hidden "because I can use different gears depending on my mood" involved in that counter-example.
In 6th gear it obviously wouldn't be very rocket-like, and it probably wouldn't be any better (in fact, maybe worse) at low speed because the throttle inputs would have to be larger to achieve the same "creeping" results, but I haven't actually tried it. I just know that it is very easy to creep in 1st gear once you've spent a couple hundred miles on it because the throttle response is very predictable and a tiny change in wrist position has a very linear and controllable effect on speed. I also don't remember how good I was at creeping along on my test ride or in my first dozen rides on it.
The assertion that you can't creep along if a drivetrain is capable of fast launches is incorrect - the two are not antithetical. Perhaps there is a small correlation for someone who is brand new to the bike, though. Also, it is probably more true on an ICE bike since you have to both learn to control the throttle, and learn how it responds in its jerky low-speed "I'm not far from stalling" mode, and how the clutch feels, all at the same time. On an electric, it is just mind to hand to throttle to electrons to spinning things and no clutch (even if you have a gearbox) and all of those are fairly direct correlations...
The "soft start" of the Zero PMAC motor is in my opinion a technical limit not a setting limit.
That was my understanding as well. It is not done for "control", but for reasons related to power deliver, and thank you for explaining the details! On the other hand, it was my understanding that Zero did originally have sharper response on their earlier models and they softened it on one year's model line (2012?). If it were because of general power limitations then why wouldn't they have had it from the beginning? Or is it that their first motors weren't high power enough to need it?
This is the reason why we discuss of gears or not. If you can life with a slow start the gearbox is needlessly complicated if you want a rocked from the start a gear box helps.
Certainly a powerful motor as the 2013 and the Empulse has will give you a more Rocket feeling from the start.
It should be possible eventually. A Tesla can certainly rocket and creep and be capable of 100+MPH all with a single gear. Bikes may not be there yet, and currently gearing may be a solution for part of this problem, but I'm hoping and believing that eventually technology and engineering will put us in the same place as Tesla's cars - where bikes can also have amazing 0-60 times and decent to impressive top end speeds with a single gear.
But, in the meantime, low speed controllability is not one of the reasons why the launch would have to be limited.
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More reviews please!
I was just caught at work drooling over the FX-specs humming 'just can't get enough' by DM - again! -
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yes, more reviews pls ! Harlan, pls make it compulsory for your customers to join this forum and write a review :)
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I'll have my FX in the desert for the first time later this week. I won't get to do much dirt riding, however, because this is a big annual antique motorcycle ride meet in Borrego Springs and I'll be spending a lot of my time with that event (riding my 1954 AJS - 18CS).
I will report back here on my impressions from the desert riding I do get on the FX. One good test, that won't take a lot of time, is the technical single track that winds around my 11.2 acres. I've ridden it enough on my DS to get a feel for the comparison and I could even do both bikes one after the other to compare.
BTW - The penalty for a fall on my trail is cholla cactus (the "jumping" cactus) and teddy bear cholla, lots of both lining the trail. :o
Trikester
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Hi Flar,
Thanks for your answer, I would really like to test ride an Empulse once.
...my understanding that Zero did originally have sharper response on their earlier models...
There was a brushed DC motor in use, there the voltage ~ rotation dependency is different. But I can live with the lower acceleration if I have a brushless (maintain free) motor.
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yes, more reviews pls ! Harlan, pls make it compulsory for your customers to join this forum and write a review :)
It hardly seems fair, but Harlan sold me the first 2013 DS they were shipped, and it is my first moto, electric or ICE, and it is an amazing machine! As a new rider, I don't have other bikes to compare to, (other than the Honda 250 I used in an MSF class last weekend-to which there is really no comparison) but for a novice it has PLENTY of torque, especially when humming uphill on mountain roads. I REALLY like the 70% regen brake affect with the throttle forward, but I can see decreasing that in the future. The acceleration is very smooth, linear, and the bike gives great Throttle Therapy! It is heavy for a novice, but sturdy, balanced, and I think I can get used to the weight ;)
EastSider
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The motorcycle mechanic next door to my shop keeps those Honda 250's and other similar bikes running for the MSF classes in SoCal. He may buy my 2010 DS to commute from his home to his business. If that happens, he will work on ICE bikes all day and then ride home on a Zero electric.
Is this a changing world?
Trikester
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That's great, very telling. Should be a good promo for Zero too!
EastSider