ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: gyrocyclist on March 17, 2017, 06:09:52 AM
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(if this has been addressed before, please point me in the correct direction ...)
I've had my SR for close to a year and 4K miles. At 600 miles I called the dealer
and asked to schedule the 600 mile check. I was told "there's no maintenance on
the Zero."
I called the factory and they said (since it's in their manual), of course
there is -- and they would talk to the shop from which I bought the bike. (And no,
I'm not going to tell you the name of the shop, since this could have been an
innocent novice mistake).
I called a second shop (I live in the Bay area and there are two shops within ~40 miles
or so), and they said to bring it in. They did a checkup and, though the diagnostic sheet
they gave me didn't exactly match up with the manual, I had confidence that they knew
what they were doing.
So, what do you gals/guys do (if anything) for regular maintenance? Do you follow the
schedule in the manual? Do you do it yourself? Do you take it to a shop? If you take
it to a shop, what's been your experience?
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I maintain the chassis parts the same way I would do with any IC motorcycle. I don't touch the motor or electrical parts of my 2014S and haven't done so since my bike was first placed into use. :) I haven't been back to a Zero dealer since my local selling dealer closed its doors a couple of years ago. :(
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...They did a checkup and, though the diagnostic sheet
they gave me didn't exactly match up with the manual, I had confidence that they knew
what they were doing...
The key things you want the shop to do are to re-commission the motor especially if it's an IPM type motor (2016 DSR SR maybe FXS, or 2017+) and to update the bikes' MBB and BMS firmware. I had to try several times to get my local shop to agree that these maintenance items would be worked on.
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I haven't seen any resolution on what the "motor commissioning and timing" does that is prescribed in the manual for newer models. At least one person on the forum speculated that this was put in, at least in part, to get people to bring their bikes back to the dealer and spend a little on service. I think a lot of people are not necessarily following that one pending hearing of problems with not doing it or benefits to doing it.
Other items like belt tension adjustment and brake maintenance should be kept up with, but don't necessarily require a dealer to service.
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Like any vehicle with moving parts:
Brakes (pads, fluids)
Tires
Wheel bearings
Steering bearings
Fork fluid
Shock
Drive Belt
Fasteners
Unique to the Zero would be to get the latest software flash which (prior to the 2017 model year) is a dealer-only part of the maintenance.
I skipped the 4,000 mile service and brought it in for the 8,000 mile service. I did bring it in for the 600 mile service. I'm undecided as to whether I'll bring it in for the 12,000 mile or just wait till 16,000.
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I haven't seen any resolution on what the "motor commissioning and timing" does that is prescribed in the manual for newer models. At least one person on the forum speculated that this was put in, at least in part, to get people to bring their bikes back to the dealer and spend a little on service. I think a lot of people are not necessarily following that one pending hearing of problems with not doing it or benefits to doing it.
Other items like belt tension adjustment and brake maintenance should be kept up with, but don't necessarily require a dealer to service.
That is my thought, also - at least until I hear a logical explanation why the "motor commissioning" is necessary. That seems to me to be kind of a "politically correct" term to me - certainly not very descriptive. ::) However, I will add that motor encoder timing might be something that needs to be checked occasionally for optimal performance. When I had my power tank installed by my dealer in 2014, shortly after I bought my bike, the Zero technician who performed the work said that he "tuned" my encoder timing and that would make the motor more efficient. :)
Regarding software: My 2014 Zero has never had its software updated and it runs perfectly. So my opinion is that if you are happy with your bike and nothing is wrong with its performance, don't mess with it. ;)
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If I were to ride a bike home from the dealer one weekend, I could commute for 4 days, then drive back to the dealer and hit the 600mi mark before I got there. The dealer is just too far for such a short scheduled checkup... 389 miles round trip.
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I've had my '16 DSR for 6 months and 2,000 miles and was wondering about this too. I also have two dealers within ~40 miles of home (Bay Area) and the one I bought it from is just a little out of round-trip range (not that they'd complete the service while I waited, probably) while the other is very close to my office and could be convenient but I am not a big fan of the shop. So bottom line is I haven't worried about service yet and they bike is behaving just fine.
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...They did a checkup and, though the diagnostic sheet
they gave me didn't exactly match up with the manual, I had confidence that they knew
what they were doing...
The key things you want the shop to do are to re-commission the motor especially if it's an IPM type motor (2016 DSR SR maybe FXS, or 2017+) and to update the bikes' MBB and BMS firmware. I had to try several times to get my local shop to agree that these maintenance items would be worked on.
The shop I went to said (without my asking) they would check for any software updates,
which make me think they knew what they were doing.
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The shop I went to said (without my asking) they would check for any software updates,
which make me think they knew what they were doing.
What I'd like to see is some kind of graph or printout that says the previous motor commissioning settings versus the new ones, if there was a change etc. Also some indication of the firmware revisions prior to and after updating. Without that kind of information (which a shop may or may not be equipped nor willing to give to their customer) I have some serious trust issues just believing that software work has been completed.
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The shop I went to said (without my asking) they would check for any software updates,
which make me think they knew what they were doing.
What I'd like to see is some kind of graph or printout that says the previous motor commissioning
I keep googling ... and still have no idea what "motor commissioning" means. Can someone explain?
thanks!
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Hello, my '14 S has the firmware version 38 (according to the log), and the unofficial service manual says there is a version 44. Anyone knows what's the difference between those versions, and if it's worth going far to the dealer to get the FW upped?
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Hello, my '14 S has the firmware version 38 (according to the log), and the unofficial service manual says there is a version 44. Anyone knows what's the difference between those versions, and if it's worth going far to the dealer to get the FW upped?
I guess I should ask, how do you determine what firmware version that you have and how do you access a "log"? I have been hearing about this for years, but I can't recall reading an explanation how to access that information. ???
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Use the online log parser to read the logs
http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/log_parser.php (http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/log_parser.php)
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Use the online log parser to read the logs
http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/log_parser.php (http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/log_parser.php)
Also, you need the zero bluetooth app for iPhone or Android to download the logs from your bike
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Use the online log parser to read the logs
http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/log_parser.php (http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/log_parser.php)
Also, you need the zero bluetooth app for iPhone or Android to download the logs from your bike
I just checked my bike's app and I don't have an logs or warnings. When I hit the uppermost key to contact Zero all I see is my VIN followed by MMB. All I really want to know is how to discover which firmware version that I have on my bike. I wasn't able to find that out by scrolling around my app. If I recall correctly, when I would boot up my 2012 S it displayed the firmware version on the dash, but that doesn't seem to happen with my 2014. ??? But there must be someway to determine the firmware version because hubert seemed to be able to acquire that information. Apparently (as usual), I am missing something. Anyone have any ideas?
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I just checked my bike's app and I don't have an logs or warnings. When I hit the uppermost key to contact Zero all I see is my VIN followed by MMB. All I really want to know is how to discover which firmware version that I have on my bike. I wasn't able to find that out by scrolling around my app. If I recall correctly, when I would boot up my 2012 S it displayed the firmware version on the dash, but that doesn't seem to happen with my 2014. ??? But there must be someway to determine the firmware version because hubert seemed to be able to acquire that information. Apparently (as usual), I am missing something. Anyone have any ideas?
When you use the "Email logs to Zero" option, the downloaded logs are kept somewhere on your phone. Find those files after they are saved and use the website mentioned before to decode them. The firmware versions are in the decoded output. I think that's what we're talking about. It is silly but at least we have this way to see the firmware version.
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The "email to Zero" option also let's you email them to yourself.
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The "email to Zero" option also let's you email them to yourself.
But the "email to Zero" option is blank and I have never checked it before, so I doubt that any longs were ever sent to my phone. ??? However, I did check my phone anyway and can't find any other Zero file on it other than the app. Either the bike has never generated any logs or they were on my previous phone that was replaced when it couldn't pick up 2G signals anymore.
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What I do is - select "Email to Bike Logs" and in the email dialog box - change the destination address to my own email account rather than Zero's.
It is good flexibility when working with your local dealer... because they too are being encouraged to accept logs.
I've not been able to find (or really bothered to search for) the log files persisting on my phone.
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I've emailed logs to my email from the Zero app before. The bike I think needs to be on and paired with the phone. It takes a few minutes to generate the logs and then email them. It's been a while since I did it, but I think it was a simple matter of tapping on the email logs to Zero, changing the email address to my own, then it would create the logs and send them...
The "email to Zero" option also let's you email them to yourself.
But the "email to Zero" option is blank and I have never checked it before, so I doubt that any longs were ever sent to my phone. ??? However, I did check my phone anyway and can't find any other Zero file on it other than the app. Either the bike has never generated any logs or they were on my previous phone that was replaced when it couldn't pick up 2G signals anymore.
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My 2017 SR refused to engage the motor. After being towed to the dealership they sent the logs to Zero and had the dealership do a new software update with 1080 miles on the odometer. Getting regular maintenance checks might have avoided my problem if I brought it in at 600 miles.
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My 2017 SR refused to engage the motor. After being towed to the dealership they sent the logs to Zero and had the dealership do a new software update with 1080 miles on the odometer. Getting regular maintenance checks might have avoided my problem if I brought it in at 600 miles.
I don't understand. Sorry. Why would the bike require a software update in order to "work"? If it worked the day before then why did it quit working? Did the dealer say why?
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Why does ANY software program just decide one day to up and quit even though you haven't made any changes or updates of which you were aware?
That's why I always try to keep my bike as up to date as possible. When a software update is issued, it's because there were previously unknown defects that affected enough people that the company deemed it necessary to fix. Riding around with unpatched vulnerabilities is never a good idea. Being in the software industry myself, I'm a firm believer in preventive maintenance.
Since I'm also not big on discovering NEW issues, I generally don't apply updates IMMEDIATELY but wait till they've been in use awhile first. Aren't computers wonderful?
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Having worked in the software industry (retired software engineer) sometimes it is not always a good idea to be on the "bleeding" edge of software updates. Better to let others grind thru the new bugs that are ALWAYS introduced with new software updates.
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I like to look at the release notes, comparing bug fixes and new features. If the latest video driver has been patched to support a game I don't play or hardware different from mine, I won't update. If the newest Minecraft snapshot fixes playability issues that bother me, I'll go for it. Zero should post release notes so we know what we're getting into.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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Having worked in the software industry (retired software engineer) sometimes it is not always a good idea to be on the "bleeding" edge of software updates. Better to let others grind thru the new bugs that are ALWAYS introduced with new software updates.
It's a fine line: Live with bugs you KNOW exist, or fix them and possibly introduce new ones. On the mainframe systems I maintain, I usually keep a month or two BEHIND on maintenance and apply anything newer on a case-by-case basis as needed. For my personal systems, I keep current backups of everything and pretty much patch a day or two after they've been released (enough time for early adopters to install and post their problems). This has been especially relevant lately with Microsoft as every Thursday after "Patch Tuesday" they seem to be either retracting a fix, or releasing an emergency fix for a recently released fix.
As for my Zero, it's not like I'm bringing it to the dealership all that often so the odds are any software patches they apply have been out in the wild for a reasonable amount of time. It is possible I may bring it in for service the day the latest patches were released but the odds are pretty much against that, I think.
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On a new bike I think it is important to see a shop that can adjust the suspension sag and turn the dials.
My fork was so stiff that I had to cut a lot of spacer to get the sag within spec and I am not that light at ~160 lb.
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The shop I went to said (without my asking) they would check for any software updates,
which make me think they knew what they were doing.
What I'd like to see is some kind of graph or printout that says the previous motor commissioning
I keep googling ... and still have no idea what "motor commissioning" means. Can someone explain?
thanks!
My best understanding is that motor commissioning is the tuning of the Sevcon controller sine wave programming against the motor position sensors so that the field is applied correctly.
This would reduce wear on the motor bearing and minimize wasted current.
I've added a provisional manual section for reference. I'd referred to this before as "controller alignment", but I realize that the proprietary term gets thrown around and deserves an index entry...
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Motor_Commissioning (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Motor_Commissioning)
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The shop I went to said (without my asking) they would check for any software updates,
which make me think they knew what they were doing.
What I'd like to see is some kind of graph or printout that says the previous motor commissioning
I keep googling ... and still have no idea what "motor commissioning" means. Can someone explain?
thanks!
My best understanding is that motor commissioning is the tuning of the Sevcon controller sine wave programming against the motor position sensors so that the field is applied correctly.
This would reduce wear on the motor bearing and minimize wasted current.
I've added a provisional manual section for reference. I'd referred to this before as "controller alignment", but I realize that the proprietary term gets thrown around and deserves an index entry...
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Motor_Commissioning (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Motor_Commissioning)
That sounds like a reasonable thing to do if there has been any factory experience with the sine wave programming wandering. However, I do find the term "commissioning" kind of goofy and rather obtuse.
I continue to believe, based upon many years of riding and owning motorcycles, if everything is working just fine and you are happy with your bike's performance, don't mess with anything. It will likely get worse. ;)
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I continue to believe, based upon many years of riding and owning motorcycles, if everything is working just fine and you are happy with your bike's performance, don't mess with anything. It will likely get worse. ;)
I pretty much live by that, and that would probably include software updates for a (possible) future electric motorcycle. :)
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My best understanding is that motor commissioning is the tuning of the Sevcon controller sine wave programming against the motor position sensors so that the field is applied correctly.
This would reduce wear on the motor bearing and minimize wasted current.
I've added a provisional manual section for reference. I'd referred to this before as "controller alignment", but I realize that the proprietary term gets thrown around and deserves an index entry...
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Motor_Commissioning (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Motor_Commissioning)
That sounds like a reasonable thing to do if there has been any factory experience with the sine wave programming wandering. However, I do find the term "commissioning" kind of goofy and rather obtuse.
I continue to believe, based upon many years of riding and owning motorcycles, if everything is working just fine and you are happy with your bike's performance, don't mess with anything. It will likely get worse. ;)
Mostly, I agree, and I try not to mess with my bike at all until/unless strictly necessary.
However, part of my nuclear technician background disagrees: I spent a good part of it helping run a program where we'd attach 6-axis accelerometers to sensing points on equipment, to study motor and bearing wear and predict problems. It was clear that anticipating a wear problem by observing non-concentric forces on a shaft or axis was worth the time invested, and our plant's defect rate dropped considerably.
I think motor commissioning falls into that category, and the Sevcon DVT software does make this relatively straightforward, so I think Zero's recommendations here are appropriate: once 600 miles after getting it on the road, and then yearly or every 8k miles.
Sure, there's probably some slack in the interval, but I wouldn't let it go. Again, the point of maintenance is to catch problems before they cause damage, and the imperceptible problems are the ones to mind carefully.
(Also, I see that Sevcon refers to this in their manual as "controller commissioning" which is a little less awkward a term).
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How much do your dealers charge for software updates?
Mine is slightly above $100
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My dealer charges $125 an hour... doesn't matter WHAT the service is. I'm not positive, but a software update probably doesn't take anywhere NEAR an hour.
If the service includes new parts (like brake pads, for instance), that too.
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If I can get hold of a discarded MBB I suspect it would be possible to work out how to do our own firmware updates. My own FXS is only a few weeks old so I'm a bit reluctant to take it apart and risk breaking something.
Even a photo showing the markings on the microcontroller might give a clue to how easy it would be. If it's something common with a readily available debugger or development board it should be easy enough.
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If I can get hold of a discarded MBB I suspect it would be possible to work out how to do our own firmware updates. My own FXS is only a few weeks old so I'm a bit reluctant to take it apart and risk breaking something.
Even a photo showing the markings on the microcontroller might give a clue to how easy it would be. If it's something common with a readily available debugger or development board it should be easy enough.
I'm pretty sure the dealership access is what's key there. Look up on the forums about cables to access the Sevcon and that toolkit being $900, and that doesn't count the MBB. The dealership access and rest of the cabling probably bumps that up quite a bit.
I happen to have lucked upon a full set of cables over a year ago and my only real capability is to apply Sevcon settings.
Attaching a debugger would be interesting but it won't get us the connection to get the updates to apply. The new 2017 OTA update model may change that but probably will add reverse engineering time.
I don't like throwing cold water on ideas, just trying to set expectations. The unofficial manual does list the connection types for Sevcon and MBB, at least. I can double check those soon.
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Probably just key on the bike while hooked up to the service laptop, press next a couple of times and have a coffee while the laptop rambles along.
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The Sevcon is something that's out of my area, and i wouldn't want to be jumping into that. However, I would think the MBB just has a suitable microcontroller for managing everything - something like a TI Hercules or similar. If Zero haven't been too concerned about protecting their code and the JTAG pins are broken out on the MBB connector then it may be possible to both read and write firmware. I've done it on other commercial products - e.g. a Tado smart thermostat.
If you think that a firmware update spans both the MBB and Sevcon then that would indeed be trickier.
Sooner or later I'll pull my FXS apart and find out for certain.
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The Sevcon is something that's out of my area, and i wouldn't want to be jumping into that. However, I would think the MBB just has a suitable microcontroller for managing everything - something like a TI Hercules or similar. If Zero haven't been too concerned about protecting their code and the JTAG pins are broken out on the MBB connector then it may be possible to both read and write firmware. I've done it on other commercial products - e.g. a Tado smart thermostat.
If you think that a firmware update spans both the MBB and Sevcon then that would indeed be trickier.
Sooner or later I'll pull my FXS apart and find out for certain.
Time with a JTAG debugger would not be wasted. I've developed on some firmware projects but only at a relatively high level with TFTP over serial. Check the manual for how the serial connection works at least.
And yes some updates include Sevcon settings and some include Sevcon firmware builds. This is all hearsay; I don't know how it's packaged.
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mine charges about $100, but service here is doing much more than just an update. electric powertrains are not maintenance free. from what i see they're reviewing logs and also checking something regarding the motor position. well worth it to know that all is in order, especially while its under warranty. spent just $400 on service last year, including new brake pads and a basic alarm.
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My 2017 SR refused to engage the motor. After being towed to the dealership they sent the logs to Zero and had the dealership do a new software update with 1080 miles on the odometer. Getting regular maintenance checks might have avoided my problem if I brought it in at 600 miles.
I don't understand. Sorry. Why would the bike require a software update in order to "work"? If it worked the day before then why did it quit working? Did the dealer say why?
I have the charge tank installed. After topping off at work late last month the bike won't engage the motor. The BMS 2-4 error flashing. After sitting at the dealership for a day or so the motor finally engage with no changes made to the bike. To be safe, they sent the logs to Zero and waited for a recommended diagnostic before releasing the bike back to me. Zero sent them the latest firmware update and asked the dealership to tell their customers on the new bikes not to leave them plugged in all the time. Not saying that caused my issue, but had I brought the bike in at 600 miles I probably would have received the firmware update sooner and not experienced the problem. Will see what happens on the next 1000 plus miles.