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[Richard230]

I just finished my talk with Mr. Walker.  He is a very nice guy and he stuck to the questions that were outlined in Zero's email message that I copied in an earlier post.  I didn't get any scoops, other than being told that Zero plans for a noticeable update to their current models in 2013, with more improvements planned in 2014 and 2015. Mr. Walker seems to think that EV motorcycle technology still has a ways to go before we stop seeing significant improvements to performance and range every year. 

I got an invitation to visit their factory in Scotts Valley and I will have to take them up on that next month.   

[dkw12002]

On the one hand, it sounds like they are going to make tweaks to the 2012 models for 2013 if he talked about making other changes for 2014-15. Maybe they will put off replacing the motor and water cooling for a couple years and just make a bigger battery with minor adjustments to the 2012 model to get a little more range and power. What do you think after talking with Mr. Walker Richard?

[nogasman]

I have my call in two weeks. Excited to expound my love for a product to the CEO of said product (strange). Only commensurate suggestion would be about the mirrors be hard to see through.

[Richard230]

On the one hand, it sounds like they are going to make tweaks to the 2012 models for 2013 if he talked about making other changes for 2014-15. Maybe they will put off replacing the motor and water cooling for a couple years and just make a bigger battery with minor adjustments to the 2012 model to get a little more range and power. What do you think after talking with Mr. Walker Richard?

What I think is that he plans to continue to improve the Zero line and the company has at least a 3-year development plan to do so.  But there was nothing in our conversation that gave any hints in which direction the improvements would go (such as a new chassis), other than the obvious - more range and more performance.  Keep in mind that Mr. Walker has only been at the firm for a month and he is still feeling his way around the electric motorcycle business.  I would think that he wouldn't make any big product development decisions until he has a good grasp of the industry, Zero's current business plan, the competition (Brammo), available technology and its cost, the EV market and what the Board of Directors wants out of the company.

[cirrus pete]

Did you ask him if he rides?

[Richard230]

Did you ask him if he rides?

No I didn't. He was asking the questions and I was trying to think how best to answer them.  But I will say that after hanging up the phone, I thought of a lot more things I wished I had said.   

[ColoPaul]

Talked to Mr. Walker today.  I'm really glad he is reaching out to actual users and getting direct feedback.  As previous posters have said, he's seems like a really good guy.   He left me with the feeling that he is excited about the company and the technology and is really dedicated and interested in making Zero a success.

He said something that shocked me - he mentioned that he had word that Brammo wouldn't be getting Empulses into users hands until next year.  For some reason,  I thought Brammo was supposed to be shipping this summer, this month no less?   I'm not much of a Brammo watcher - do I have my rumors all mixed up?

[protomech]

When pricing and shipping schedules were announced in May, Brammo announced they would ship the Empulse R in June and the Empulse non-R early next year. I'm guessing Mr. Walker is referring to the Empulse non-R shipping next year. In truth the Empulse has slipped from a mid 2011 to an early 2013 bike; the limited number of Empulse R bikes that ship this year are a tease.

June came and went. In early July Brammo CEO Craig Bramscher announced in an interview that "Empulse [R]  is going to assembly in July and production begins in August."

We're midway into August and haven't really heard much from Brammo. Admittedly they're pretty busy contesting the NA TTXGP, but all the Empulse preorder customers are in the dark.

Gavin @ Brammoforum dug up a photo showing Empulse frames waiting for assembly.

Brammo showed a production-based Empulse TTX racebike at Laguna Seca. In order to race in the eSuperStock award, they need to have 25 of the production bike assembled. My guess is Brammo will push to assemble 25 Empulse R bikes prior to the NA TTXGP Final at Miller on September 2nd, then ship them out to owners just after the race.

[ZeroSinMA]

Talked to Mr. Walker today.  I'm really glad he is reaching out to actual users and getting direct feedback.  As previous posters have said, he's seems like a really good guy.   He left me with the feeling that he is excited about the company and the technology and is really dedicated and interested in making Zero a success.

He said something that shocked me - he mentioned that he had word that Brammo wouldn't be getting Empulses into users hands until next year.  For some reason,  I thought Brammo was supposed to be shipping this summer, this month no less?   I'm not much of a Brammo watcher - do I have my rumors all mixed up?

I also had a positive experience speaking with Richard Walker. I think he understands how to improve the sales, marketing, and operations aspects of the business and will leave the highly capable engineering and product marketing teams to do their thing. He understands sales channels and that can make or break a company at this stage. I think the company is in good hands. He has my confidence.

He also told me that the information they have is that the Empulse will not be out until next year. For anyone who has been reading my threads and comments on Brammo, this should come as no surprise. The Empulse is grandiose. The prototype makes for good marketing but turning it into a production product is a fool's errand. I predicted the bike will be years late and far over budget. In fact, now that I've seen pictures of the product in a recent review I'll stick my neck out and predict that the Empulse will be the end of Brammo. They blundered by attempting to go to far up-market too fast. Many companies have gone out of business making the same mistake. If they're smart, Polaris will cut their losses soon and move on. Maybe Brammo can survive if it goes down-market from the Inertia.

[Richard230]

I don't think Brammo will go belly-up. But I do think their sales of the Empulse and the Enertia Plus will not be enough to support the company for very long if those are their only products.  I think their real future will be as a Polaris subsidiary or consultant contractor performing EV research for Polaris's range of off-road, commercial and industrial vehicles (kind of like an in-house Mission Motorcycles).  They might also end up being a Polaris electric motorcycle brand when (eventually) the EV market finally looks like it will generate enough yearly sales to make some money.  Personally, I don't see that happening for quite some time - unless oil supplies become disrupted due to something bad happening in the Middle East.   

[ZeroSinMA]

I don't think Brammo will go belly-up. But I do think their sales of the Empulse and the Enertia Plus will not be enough to support the company for very long if those are their only products.  I think their real future will be as a Polaris subsidiary or consultant contractor performing EV research for Polaris's range of off-road, commercial and industrial vehicles (kind of like an in-house Mission Motorcycles).  They might also end up being a Polaris electric motorcycle brand when (eventually) the EV market finally looks like it will generate enough yearly sales to make some money.  Personally, I don't see that happening for quite some time - unless oil supplies become disrupted due to something bad happening in the Middle East.   

I guarantee you that Brammo is hemorrhaging money in their ill-fated quest to build an electric bike that operates like an IC bike and no parent company or investor will put up with that for long. The main culprit is an unnecessary six speed gear box and the added weight and lower range that is one trade-off vs no gears. The other negative in the trade-off is higher cost. They are attempting to re-create the experience of an IC bike to appeal to IC bike riders who can't get their heads around the natural smooth torque curve of an electric motor. Huge mistake. Higher cost/lower range is not a solution. The user will catch up with the technology. It's stupid to hobble new technology with anachronisms. Imagine Apple initially shipping the iPhone with only one app that makes it work like an old cell phone because users were originally familiar with the interface on a cell phone. The thing runs 1000s of apps, for pete's sake. That's what the iPhone is about.

An argument can be made for two gears on an electric, one up to approx. 40MPH and another to 100MPH, but no more, and if and only if it can be done without adding weight that reduces range. A better weight/value trade-off is ABS. 

All of this is academic because it's obvious that Brammo's product marketing team is dysfunctional. My bet is that they are captive to the engineering team and powerless. Look at the way they have handled the delays in the Inertia+ on top of delays of the Empulse. They are trying to stall Zero sales with a string of fake delivery dates for bikes that never materialize but instead they're stalling their own sales. 

A friendly wager... $10 says they abandon the Empulse within six months and the who gig fails within 12.

[protomech]

I guarantee you that Brammo is hemorrhaging money in their ill-fated quest to build an electric bike that operates like an IC bike and no parent company or investor will put up with that for long. The main culprit is an unnecessary six speed gear box and the added weight and lower range that is one trade-off vs no gears.

You know the Empulse claims lower 70 mph energy consumption vs the Zero, right? ~160 Wh/mile Empulse vs ~180 Wh/mile for the Zero S. It may or may not be related to the transmission - Empulse could be more aerodynamic, tests could be bunk, tailwind for the Empulse within allowable range, etc. But a 470 lb bike with significant transmission loss and 17% more battery gets 30% more highway miles.

I would guess Empulse will break even in energy/mile vs the Zero around 45-50 mph. And even below that point, it still has 17% more battery .. despite the 130 pounds of tubby it still beats the Zero in city range.

Does the transmission add weight? Absolutely, probably 20-30 lbs. Empulse is a porker. And yet ..

670 lbs bike + rider / ( 40 kW peak = 53 hp ) = 12.6 lbs / hp, 5s 0-60
540 lbs bike + rider / 29 hp = 18.6 lbs / hp, 10s 0-60

Empulse per specifications has 33% less weight per hp to carry, and it halves the S's time to 60.

The other negative in the trade-off is higher cost. They are attempting to re-create the experience of an IC bike to appeal to IC bike riders who can't get their heads around the natural smooth torque curve of an electric motor. Huge mistake. Higher cost/lower range is not a solution. The user will catch up with the technology. It's stupid to hobble new technology with anachronisms. Imagine Apple initially shipping the iPhone with only one app that makes it work like an old cell phone because users were originally familiar with the interface on a cell phone. The thing runs 1000s of apps, for pete's sake. That's what the iPhone is about.

We've already addressed lower range. Let's talk higher cost.

Zero charges $2500 for the extra 2.6 kWh ZF3 module that converts a ZF6 bike to a ZF9. Let's call their marginal pricing $1000/kWh.

Empulse has 1.4 kWh more nominal capacity (9.3 - 7.9 kWh). So there's $1400 of the $3000 price delta.

In practice the Delta-Q onboard the Zero bikes charges at 12A max, so around 800W to the battery pack. Empulse's charger should be around 3 kW delivered. Roughly the capacity of four Delta-Qs. 3 additional chargers + a J1772 inlet will run you about $2000. Plus installation.

Passenger pegs are stock on the Empulse, $300 option from Zero.

$3700 in somewhat hand-wavey add-ons. Not putting a price tag on the significantly higher performance, significantly better display + computer interface, or higher-tech (and perhaps more failure-prone) design.

I think we'll see a 2013 Zero that's significantly more competitive with the 2013 Empulse, and it is indeed unfair to compare a 2012 bike that has been shipping for seven months to a 2013 bike with no hard production date. Nevertheless, the Empulse's price appears to be justifiable given its advantages over the shipping Zero ZF9.

An argument can be made for two gears on an electric, one up to approx. 40MPH and another to 100MPH, but no more, and if and only if it can be done without adding weight that reduces range. A better weight/value trade-off is ABS.

Agreed. ABS needs to be available on these >> $10k bikes yesterday.

I'm sympathetic to the two-gear argument. The only real rationale I can find for six gears is that it may make the transmission more durable by minimizing RPM swings between gear shifts. BorgWarner Magna knows a thing or two about transmissions, and they couldn't build a two-speed transmission for Tesla that wouldn't explode under high power shifts. Brammo (or more properly SMRE) may have found a similar justification for more than two speeds.

All of this is academic because it's obvious that Brammo's product marketing team is dysfunctional. My bet is that they are captive to the engineering team and powerless. Look at the way they have handled the delays in the Inertia+ on top of delays of the Empulse. They are trying to stall Zero sales with a string of fake delivery dates for bikes that never materialize but instead they're stalling their own sales.

A friendly wager... $10 says they abandon the Empulse within six months and the who gig fails within 12.

Agree that Brammo has done an exceedingly poor job of meeting promised specifications, prices, and delivery goals .. and an even poorer job of communicating with their would-be customers.

Setting that aside for a moment -- if you care to make the wager serious, and I'll spot you double the timeframe -- I could use an extra 1000 miles of energy for the Zero. : )

[trikester]

Any meshed gears = more friction. More friction = less mileage.

Use the inherent characteristics of the electric motor to advantage (max torque @ 0 RPM) - no gears!

How many gears did you see on a steam locomotive (max torque @ 0 RPM)? Oops - I just aged myself

Okay, youngsters - how many gears do you see on a Diesel-electric locomotive?

Trikester

[protomech]

A locomotive is not the same thing as a motorcycle. Different design objectives prompt different solutions.

A multi-gear transmission is undoubtedly a less efficient transmission than a belt drive, taken strictly in isolation. However, if the multi-gear transmission allows the bike to operate in a more efficient RPM / load point for a desired motor output -- let's say steady 70 mph travel -- then the multi-speed gearbox can break even or better vs the single-speed transmission. I've written about this earlier - but the takeaway is that the transmission is likely only more efficient in edge cases.. perhaps fortunately for Brammo, one of those edge cases appears to be 70 mph highway travel.

[ZeroSinMA]

I guarantee you that Brammo is hemorrhaging money in their ill-fated quest to build an electric bike that operates like an IC bike and no parent company or investor will put up with that for long. The main culprit is an unnecessary six speed gear box and the added weight and lower range that is one trade-off vs no gears.

You know the Empulse claims lower 70 mph energy consumption vs the Zero, right? ~160 Wh/mile Empulse vs ~180 Wh/mile for the Zero S. It may or may not be related to the transmission - Empulse could be more aerodynamic, tests could be bunk, tailwind for the Empulse within allowable range, etc. But a 470 lb bike with significant transmission loss and 17% more battery gets 30% more highway miles.

I would guess Empulse will break even in energy/mile vs the Zero around 45-50 mph. And even below that point, it still has 17% more battery .. despite the 130 pounds of tubby it still beats the Zero in city range.

Does the transmission add weight? Absolutely, probably 20-30 lbs. Empulse is a porker. And yet ..

670 lbs bike + rider / ( 40 kW peak = 53 hp ) = 12.6 lbs / hp, 5s 0-60
540 lbs bike + rider / 29 hp = 18.6 lbs / hp, 10s 0-60

Empulse per specifications has 33% less weight per hp to carry, and it halves the S's time to 60.

The other negative in the trade-off is higher cost. They are attempting to re-create the experience of an IC bike to appeal to IC bike riders who can't get their heads around the natural smooth torque curve of an electric motor. Huge mistake. Higher cost/lower range is not a solution. The user will catch up with the technology. It's stupid to hobble new technology with anachronisms. Imagine Apple initially shipping the iPhone with only one app that makes it work like an old cell phone because users were originally familiar with the interface on a cell phone. The thing runs 1000s of apps, for pete's sake. That's what the iPhone is about.

We've already addressed lower range. Let's talk higher cost.

Zero charges $2500 for the extra 2.6 kWh ZF3 module that converts a ZF6 bike to a ZF9. Let's call their marginal pricing $1000/kWh.

Empulse has 1.4 kWh more nominal capacity (9.3 - 7.9 kWh). So there's $1400 of the $3000 price delta.

In practice the Delta-Q onboard the Zero bikes charges at 12A max, so around 800W to the battery pack. Empulse's charger should be around 3 kW delivered. Roughly the capacity of four Delta-Qs. 3 additional chargers + a J1772 inlet will run you about $2000. Plus installation.

Passenger pegs are stock on the Empulse, $300 option from Zero.

$3700 in somewhat hand-wavey add-ons. Not putting a price tag on the significantly higher performance, significantly better display + computer interface, or higher-tech (and perhaps more failure-prone) design.

I think we'll see a 2013 Zero that's significantly more competitive with the 2013 Empulse, and it is indeed unfair to compare a 2012 bike that has been shipping for seven months to a 2013 bike with no hard production date. Nevertheless, the Empulse's price appears to be justifiable given its advantages over the shipping Zero ZF9.

An argument can be made for two gears on an electric, one up to approx. 40MPH and another to 100MPH, but no more, and if and only if it can be done without adding weight that reduces range. A better weight/value trade-off is ABS.

Agreed. ABS needs to be available on these >> $10k bikes yesterday.

I'm sympathetic to the two-gear argument. The only real rationale I can find for six gears is that it may make the transmission more durable by minimizing RPM swings between gear shifts. BorgWarner knows a thing or two about transmissions, and they couldn't build a two-speed transmission for Tesla that wouldn't explode under high power shifts. Brammo (or more properly SMRE) may have found a similar justification for more than two speeds.

All of this is academic because it's obvious that Brammo's product marketing team is dysfunctional. My bet is that they are captive to the engineering team and powerless. Look at the way they have handled the delays in the Inertia+ on top of delays of the Empulse. They are trying to stall Zero sales with a string of fake delivery dates for bikes that never materialize but instead they're stalling their own sales.

A friendly wager... $10 says they abandon the Empulse within six months and the who gig fails within 12.

Agree that Brammo has done an exceedingly poor job of meeting promised specifications, prices, and delivery goals .. and an even poorer job of communicating with their would-be customers.

Setting that aside for a moment -- if you care to make the wager serious, and I'll spot you double the timeframe -- I could use an extra 1000 miles of energy for the Zero. : )

I don't care what the Brammo specs and Brammo test results say. They mean as much to me as Brammo's product delivery dates.

The proof is in the pudding. We cannot compare a production product that has been shipping for years to a vaporware product that does not exist except as a  prototype for racing and marketing.

I've seen the Brammo vs Zero movie over and over in the high tech industry over the past 30 years.

One company rides the technology development cost/price/margin/demand curve with wisdom and care while others reach too far, usually out of hubris, and fail.

They make fatal errors. In other words they make errors that are too expensive for investors.

They run out of money trying to recover.

Simple as that.

A six speed transmission is needed on an IC bike to invert the torque curve. It is madness to put one on an electric bike when electric motors deliver 100% torque at 0 RPM.

It is doubly foolish when the price/performance game is all about power density, to maximize the utility of expensive kilowatts.

I'm not knocking the Brammo engineers or questioning the integrity of the Brammo team. I fully understand how such foolish decisions are made that wreck great companies. I've seen it over and over. But sorry to say, add up all of the facts that can be independently proved and Brammo smells like failure.

I want to keep the bet friendly. What did you have in mind?