ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Richard230 on October 03, 2016, 04:43:48 AM
-
A link in the Hydrogen Highway is being built across from Alice's Restaurant in the Santa Cruz Mountains, south of San Francisco. What a monumental boondoggle! I have heard that there are just a few H2 cars in all of California and I believe all of those are production prototypes being tested by the auto manufacturers. I am pretty sure that none are privately owned at this time.
However, should anyone in the SF Bay Area buy an H2-powered auto, they can always drive up into the mountains to find a filling station, which is being built at great expense by some government agency using taxpayer funds. (Who else would fund something like this?) This complex has been under construction all summer long and is now reaching the point where some of the equipment is being installed. Attached are photos that I took today and I will post updates as the construction continues until the project is complete and the security fencing is removed. All that equipment just to supply one filling outlet. :o I have my doubts if I will ever be able to post a hydrogen-powered car filling up at this out-of-the-way station, but if I ever see one, I will let you know. ;)
Here is a photo of the filling pump.
-
And here is a photo of the H2 storage tanks.
-
...I believe all of those are production prototypes being tested by the auto manufacturers. I am pretty sure that none are privately owned at this time.
I thought you could lease a Toyota Mirai, but not buy one outright? Though it seems to me I also read that they're screening potential lessees pretty carefully, and of course they won't lease one to you unless you live near one of the areas where H2 is already available.
-
...I believe all of those are production prototypes being tested by the auto manufacturers. I am pretty sure that none are privately owned at this time.
I thought you could lease a Toyota Mirai, but not buy one outright? Though it seems to me I also read that they're screening potential lessees pretty carefully, and of course they won't lease one to you unless you live near one of the areas where H2 is already available.
You are probably right. Vehicle manufacturers testing new technology prefer leasing to selling outright. Just in case something goes wrong and they have to mash up a few of the early vehicles when they get a reputation of exploding while being driven. ;)
-
Construction of the H2 station continues. ::) This week they seem to be building a very sturdy, heavily-reinforced, two-story concrete structure, which leads me to believe that the plan is to actually manufacture hydrogen at this facility. Attached are photos showing the reinforcing and some more equipment. I noted that workmen were working on the building today. Since this is a Sunday and they must be getting double-time wages, I suspect that there is likely a hard deadline for completion of the facility. This has got to be a government-financed project. ::)
-
Here is another view of the building reinforcing steel. My friend thinks the two boxes at the lower left of the picture are the equipment that will crack water to make H2. (I have no idea if that is true.)
-
Here is the electrical panel for the facility. It looks pretty heavy-duty to me. ???
-
Construction of the H2 station continues. ::) This week they seem to be building a very sturdy, heavily-reinforced, two-story concrete structure, which leads me to believe that the plan is to actually manufacture hydrogen at this facility. Attached are photos showing the reinforcing and some more equipment. I noted that workmen were working on the building today. Since this is a Sunday and they must be getting double-time wages, I suspect that there is likely a hard deadline for completion of the facility. This has got to be a government-financed project. ::)
I think hydrogen is stored at extremely high pressure in the storage tank and is the reason for the heavy structure. It then has to be stepped down to a pressure that a automobile tank can handle. I would guess also the delivery truck pressure is less than the storage tank pressure so must be compressed to top off the storage tank. That heavy duty equipment is probably what does all the pressurizing and depressurizing. But I know just enough to be dangerous.
-
For 6k you can convert any petroleum powered vehicle into a water powered. Although that runs on water, not H2.
http://www.stanmeyersparkplug.com/ (http://www.stanmeyersparkplug.com/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf8asPBoavQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf8asPBoavQ)
http://watersparkplugs.com/ (http://watersparkplugs.com/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdtN_K2tHFo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdtN_K2tHFo)
I need to add that I thought they were for sale but I did not find the page/distributor so there is a chance that this is all a scam.
-
The Hydrogen Highway keeps on trucking. It sure looks like a production plant to me. They now have posted a sign warning of the dangers of Hydrogen. :o
-
Here is a link to some interesting and informative information regarding Hydrogen-fueled cars:
https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/8-things-you-need-to-know-about-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars.html (https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/8-things-you-need-to-know-about-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars.html)
And here is a link to the locations of H2 stations in California:
http://cafcp.org/stationmap (http://cafcp.org/stationmap)
This description is for the hydrogen station being built across from Alice's Restaurant, at the intersection of State highways 35 and 84: Woodside, 17287 Skyline Boulevard, Woodside, CA 94062:
Station Type: Retail - In development
Development Status: Commissioning
Expected to Open: March 2017
Hydrogen Source: Gaseous H2 Delivery
Station Customer Service: (604) 904-0412
-
Oh dear, just think of all the DC quick charge stations you could have built for that price...
-
I'm really not a fan of the hydrogen fuel cells for passenger cars / light trucks. To much weight and real estate for such small vehicles. I do like them being made for larger trucks and even RV's. Will keep an eye on how this technology as it gets developed moving forward.
-
Here is the latest Hydrogen Highway news: The H2 fueling station was supposed to be opened on March 17, but nothing has happened there since last year, other than a security fence blew down, providing a clearer picture of the station's complexity. It is a mystery to me what all of these pipes and gauges do - or are going to do some day. Perhaps they are not in any hurry to open the station as there are really no H2-powered vehicles to fuel up and they are waiting until someone buys one near enough to use the station. ???
-
Here is the latest information regarding the H2 station in Woodside, CA, at the Sky Londa center, across from Alice's Restaurant. The information is already out of date as the station is still closed, is fenced off and nothing has been done in the way of finishing the station since last November. What a boondoggle. :(
https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2017/04/14/woodside-hydrogen-fuel-cell-station-set-to-open-in-may-or-june (https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2017/04/14/woodside-hydrogen-fuel-cell-station-set-to-open-in-may-or-june)
-
Subsidies were to be forthcoming for the Woodside station -- according to the 2015 plan, about $100,000 a year for three years. Asked if that figure had changed, Mr. Cazel said the amount is "to be determined."
Yikes.
-
Subsidies were to be forthcoming for the Woodside station -- according to the 2015 plan, about $100,000 a year for three years. Asked if that figure had changed, Mr. Cazel said the amount is "to be determined."
Yikes.
And we all know that subsidies never get reduced. ::) And if you think that is bad, just imagine what the subsidy would need to be to keep California's $100 billion and rising "High Speed Rail" project running - if it ever gets completed (which it won't). :o
To me, I would much rather put that electrical power into a battery instead of making hydrogen from water and then compressing it and keeping the liquid very cold until it is pumped into a heavy fuel tank to be turned back into electricity and water. The whole idea just doesn't make any sense to me. ??? At least not if cost and efficiency is a goal - which it probably isn't. ::)
-
Only that hydrogen doesn't come from electricity but from fracked oil.
-
Only that hydrogen doesn't come from electricity but from fracked oil.
According to that linked article that I posted, about 40% of the hydrogen sold (if it ever is) would be manufactured on site. No fracking there. Just lots of electricity and a source of water. The remaining H2 would be trucked in to the site. I don't know where that is coming from, but I don't think there is any oil drilling or fracking in the SF Bay Area. If there was, someone would have burned down the facilities by now. ;) Or did you mean "cracking" instead of "fracking"? ???
-
Here is the latest Hydrogen Highway progress photo obtained by looking through the security fence yesterday. I think those VW fast chargers will be operating long before this H2 station gets going. Just a few more months and it will be a year without any measurable progress. ???
-
"Steam-methane reforming, the current leading technology for producing hydrogen in large quantities" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel#Production
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#Natural_gas
I'm guessing that's the right term, reforming.
I Am Not A Chemist.
-
Why are they even pursuing this? ::)
-
PG&E? Fossil greenwashing? Compliance deferral? Arnold H-1 flashbacks? It's hard to know why people do things.
-
Why are they even pursuing this? ::)
Money. ;) Some how, someone(s) believes that there is money to be made from H2. ??? After all, it is the most abundant element in the Universe. ;) So you ought to be able to buy low and sell high. ::)
-
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170827/08e98c5fbcbe71b3aa8e3140f469f098.jpg)
The station across from Alice's is still worthless and there's no charging station. I think Alice's management is just permanently annoyed by the entire fiasco and will never directly agree to EV investment.
-
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170827/08e98c5fbcbe71b3aa8e3140f469f098.jpg)
The station across from Alice's is still worthless and there's no charging station. I think Alice's management is just permanently annoyed by the entire fiasco and will never directly agree to EV investment.
Having talked to both owners of the restaurant, that does seem to be their current position. However, they are an equal opportunity "hater", as they also have no use for the H2 station across the street (which I think is on property owned by the adjacent Sky Londa community store). Frankly, Alice's is so busy 7 days a week right now that don't really need, or apparently want, any more customers, not even EV ones. (It has been quite a while since I have seen any Tesla or Leaf owners up there - and there are a lot of those people within 30 miles of the restaurant.)
-
The Hydrogen Highway has returned. Finally after several years of growing weeds, the construction work is back on. But will anyone want to drive into the woods to refill their H2-powered car? I wonder. ::) You can't even get anyone to install an L2 charging station around there.
-
I recently tested the 4 J plugs at the nearby library, at least. Some day that intersection will support EV charging. And it will likely outlive that H station.
-
I saw a "well to wheel" efficiency analysis of two different fuel cell vehicles and the results were surprising. One was filled with hydrogen - which we are familiar and one filled with Natural Gas.
The one filled with natural gas has a onboard reformer that strips the hydrogen form natural gas - similar to how Bloom Energy (stationary fuel cells) does it or similar to how hydrogen is made today. The benefit of the fuel cell vehicle is that compressed natural guess is easier to store and handle then hydrogen. The analysis showed that the CNG Fuel Cell was slightly more efficient. Natural gas infrastructure is everywhere, so hydrogen full stations may be thought of as unnecessary. The drawback is that it takes time for the reformer to warm up.
I can't fine the analysis results, but if anyone knows of it, they should post it.
-
"$2,125,000 to install a hydrogen refueling station in Woodside."
according to this 2014 article:
https://insideevs.com/california-approves-46-6-million-funding-hydrogen-fueling-stations-2-8-million-ev-charging-stations/
-
This stop on the California Hydrogen Highway has finally been completed after years of construction at a cost of millions of dollars. And it is located where hydrogen-powered vehicles are unlikely to travel - across from Alice's Restaurant, located in the Santa Cruz Mountains, about 50 miles south of San Francisco. While the station may now be completed there appears to be no one to operate it, likely because they can't find anyone that can sleep long enough for a customer to arrive. ::) If I ever see a customer there, I will be sure to take a photo. ;) I wonder how many L2 charging stations you could build with the money that was spent on that facility. ???
-
Surely the pump can be operated without an attendant present?
But sheesh, I couldn't agree more. $2.1 million of the $2.8 million cost was granted by the state of California from taxpayers to generate up to 100kg per day which can fill up to "20" cars per day.
There are only a couple thousand hydrogen vehicles in California. Electric cars are being added at a rate more than 20x hydrogen, there are only 3 hydrogen vehicle manufacturers, battery is 200% more efficient than hydrogen, etc.
There should be at least two level 2 plugs at STP by now, and two more across the street at Alice's, what with the large and rapidly growing number of Teslas and other EVs (ours!) roaming around Silicon Valley.
-
I met someone who actually has a hydrogen car the other day,
Rep. Quirk of Alameda.
We chatted a bit about how refueling works. It's tricky the first
couple of times, apparently, and sometimes the station doesn't
have any fuel.
-
Someone left the door to the Hydrogen Highway open today and no one was around, so went in and took a photo of the very expensive equipment that does nothing but operate a light on top of one of the electrical cabinets. What a waste of money! ::)
-
H2 reaches New Jersey, but no highway to drive on yet: ::)
https://jalopnik.com/behold-the-most-mysterious-used-car-for-sale-in-americ-1837933507/amp
-
"the hose from the fuel dispenser blew off next to this guy and caused an explosion. That’s not ideal."
Yeah, not ideal.
Electricity may spark, but at least it doesn't explode. And there are mechanisms at public electric stations to prevent plugging and unplugging when high voltage is present.
-
I stopped by to check out the Hydrogen Highway across from Alice's Restaurant today and found the door to the facility open, so I walked in and looked around. Right now the highway is growing tall weeds, the facility is making a lot of noise that sounds like a working refinery and the red warning light is lit. I kind of wonder who is paying the power bill, why the red light is on (and what it means) and why the gate was open?. What a waste of someone's money. :(
-
Here is another photo of the works.
-
That looks rather abandoned and a bit of a fire hazard.
-Crissa
-
That looks rather abandoned and a bit of a fire hazard.
-Crissa
I continue to wonder why the electrical power remains on and what the facility is doing with that power? I bet it could be put to a more useful purpose.
-
I've been to Alice's plenty of times and I haven't once seen someone fuel up using that thing. Such a waste.
-
Think of the number of cars and bikes that would have charged up had it been a CCS/J-Plug stop instead.
-Crissa
-
Thanks for the update. What a waste.
-
I dug up the 2015 article again. https://almanacnews.com/news/2015/08/04/skylonda-residents-await-hydrogen-fuel-station
It's so upsetting. This absolute boondoggle special interest project, a completely foreseeable abject failure, was paid for by your and my tax dollars. The California Energy Commission dropped $2.1 million into that garbage shed, as well as an additional $100,000 per year for three years to operate it. I suspect now that the three years are up and all the money has dried up, nobody gives a f*ck about that useless liability.
The state politicians should held responsible. Note that the Energy Commission is still there soliciting stupid ways to spend the arbitrary budget approved by legislation like Assembly Bill 8 (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140AB8).
Based on the cost of installing charging stations (https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/evse_cost_report_2015.pdf#:~:text=Installation%20costs%20vary%20greatly%20from,51%2C000%20for%20DC%20fast%20charging.), they could have installed 4 DCFC and 4 L2 chargers up there and still had a boatloads of cash left over.
-
I don't know that the politicians were responsible but we seriously need a better way to ferret out waste and corruption. From fake environmental impact challenges to false prevailing wage documentation, trumped up permit fees and contractor malfeasance...
...We sorta need a specific professional corps to investigate and some slapp laws deal with this stuff.
So many things are just let sit empty while the rentiers dither and take more profit while jobs sit in limbo either in court or the permit office with no clear path.
-Crissa
-
The H2 facility's door was still open last Sunday, so I took another look. The red light is still on and the weeds had grown another 6". I did notice that below the red light was a siren. I wonder what you are supposed to do if that thing sounds. I assume run as fast as you can away from the station. :o
-
Any idea if/when there would be fast charger near Alice Restaurant? Sorry for hijacking topic.
-
Any idea if/when there would be fast charger near Alice Restaurant? Sorry for hijacking topic.
I have nothing against hijacking. ;) I have a tendency to do it all the time. :-[
A few years ago the owners of Alice's Restaurant were approached regarding establishing a couple of L2 charging stations in their parking lot. But they told me that the cost was too high and it would have taken away from their already insufficient restaurant parking area. Mostly though the costs were more much than they wanted to pay and they felt that their relatively few customers with electric cars (that would be almost entirely Teslas), would not make use of L2 charging facilities so it just didn't seem to be worth the expense.
Instead the Skywood General Store across the street got the multi-million useless H2 Highway refueling station, which replaced the old rundown gas station that had been located next to the store for a great many years. ::)
-
How are you supposed to get ev customers without chargers, especially in rural locations?
-Crissa
-
Skywood Trading Place is not rural, being only 11 miles from Palo Alto and Menlo Park.
It seems like Alice's could convince ChargePoint or EVgo to operate a charger there, maybe back behind their big propane tank.
The gas station is still there and was part of the remodel.
(https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6272.0;attach=12721)
-
That is literally rural.
Distance to urban core is not the definition.
-Crissa
-
Let me try again.
How are you supposed to get ev customers without chargers, especially in rural locations?
Having no chargers is not an impediment to 99% of Alice's EV customers (Teslas and the like; EV MCs are not even a blip on their radar).
-
Let me try again.
...Weird, that completely seems to miss the point.
There were more Leafs on the road than Teslas until last year. There are more non-Tesla EVs on the road than Teslas.
Having no EV charging means you do not grow your market. They would be a stop a Leaf could take to the beach... But they don't have charging, so no Leaf or Bolt owners go there.
Let alone Zeros, which are made just down the road and the Zero demos used to go that way but now go South instead.
By not having charging, they are making sure no mid to low distance EVs even visit their community.
-Crissa
-
There used to be an old gas station/repair building next to the Skywood General Store, it was replaced by the all new H2 station office, which has never been occupied. The General Store now operates the gas pumps, you go into the store, pay first and then pump. One of the gas pumps, the one that is out of the picture above, has not been working for the past few months.
Maybe I visit Alice's at the wrong time, but I have only seen one or two Teslas parked in the restaurant lot so far this year and I am up there every Sunday morning. I have yet to see any other EV vehicle lately. Nothing much but expensive sports cars and family SUV's, along with a bunch of Japanese "tuner" cars and the occasional old classic car.
-
It's just out of my range with my bike without some chargers. I could get there, but then I'd have to go down the hill to charge to get home.
So why spend time where I'm not charging?
-Crissa
-
With my latest Zero, I can make it from SF to Alice’s with 67% SoC, but charging there would be nice because I can EAT there, unlike most charging stations locations like the library that’s 0.7 miles down the road where I can walk around and maybe use the park for a little exercise.
Destination charging at restaurants like this isn’t just about straight line trip legs. It’s often about getting somewhere else without your lunch being a delay.
That hydrogen station has all the electrical upgrades a generous EV charging station group would need. I’m pretty sure from Alice’s perspective, they just want to keep costs low (let’s just admit the food isn’t the draw, and the young staff are probably not well paid) and are not concerned about traffic. They don’t have trouble keeping the place full.
-
Yeah. I can go to La Selva or Davenport and back from home, without charging. But if I want to go to San Jose or Watsonville, the air show or the dunes, I have to charge somewhere. Not long, but a little bit.
And that means parking somewhere. Even for a Tesla that's more than a couple minutes... It's long enough to drink a coke or have a sandwich. For me it's an hour or so, depending about how far out of my range I want to go.
So you have a restaurant, you want a charger. Because that means EV drivers will steer to your business as a matter of course. A stop on the way there, to add enough juice to make the day. Or a stop on the way home, to finish off the trip. But it's a stop that is chosen, because there's a charging point.
-Crissa
-
I've actually thought about charging infrastructure along highway 1 (Half Moon Bay to Santa Cruz) and the lack of it. I also consider Alices part of that as I often take 84 to get over to the coast. Half Moon Bay has plenty of charging, including DCFC but after that it's basically dead until Santa Cruz.
My first thought in terms of DCFC is the town of Pescadero. Lots of room to build out some Level 3s, it's a small town that gets packed on weekends. Coffee shop, little stores, great grocery store everyone stops at for lunch (or the fresh baked artichoke bread), and Duarte's. It probably has plenty of infrastructure for Level 3. See image below, plenty of parking/buildout areas for charging.
(https://i.imgur.com/fURXSbY.png)
Next I would probably put in several level 2 charges in Davenport and 1 level 2 charger in San Gregorio. At that point the gap is covered for charging.
I know nothing about building out infrastructure for these types of things but I wonder how difficult it is to get funding for these projects from government/private.
-
Funding for the initial installation and for the continuing maintenance of a charging station and its infrastructure and who is going to do it, always seems to be the big concern. Most businesses would like a government agency to do that, while the government has got its own money problems right now.
Frankly, while it would be nice to have a charging station or two in Pescadero, except for the weekends I am not all that sure that most of the local residents would really use the facility as they are unlikely to be interested in owning electric cars due to the remote nature of the town and the low income of the residents of that farming community. Hay for horses and cows would seem to be the main refueling business in Pescadero. ;)
-
It's fine to own an electric if you live in Pescadero, because you charge at home. It's just not fine to visit.
-Crissa
-
There were more Leafs on the road than Teslas until last year. There are more non-Tesla EVs on the road than Teslas.
Relevance?
Having no EV charging means you do not grow your market.
Alice's is always packed (covid aside) and does not need to grow their market, especially in miniscule ways. If they did want to grow their market, they wouldn't spend their budget trying to attract more EVs.
They would be a stop a Leaf could take to the beach... But they don't have charging, so no Leaf or Bolt owners go there.
My Bolt has 239 miles of range. I don't need a charger at Alice's or the beach, and neither do any of the Teslas or Leafs or any other recent EV car, much less ones coming in the future.
Let alone Zeros, which are made just down the road and the Zero demos used to go that way but now go South instead.
Charging at Alice's would be a game changer for Zeros, but only for the Zero owners, not Alice's. And only for Zeros with an L2 port. Miniscule.
By not having charging, they are making sure no mid to low distance EVs even visit their community.
They don't need to cater to short-range EVs or long-distance travelers. Miniscule. Even if EVs mattered, the long range EV density is relatively high in a 50 mile radius around Alice's.
Still, I would welcome DCFC at Skywood, as long as they're dropping millions with no regard for financial viability. My Bolt could potentially use that, in some contrived scenario that I can't dream up right now.
-
Relevance?
Facts, not anecdotes.
Alice's is always packed
It's never packed when I pass by. Heck, when I've eaten there, I'm usually one of two tables or so. Anecdote, though.
Their low wages and high server turnaround do not indicate a healthy business, though.
My Bolt has 239 miles of range.
Anecdote again. The median new EV (excepting motorcycles) is 181 miles. But that really doesn't indicate installed base, does it? Or whether gaining a dozen or two miles while eating would be more convenient than not and make them more likely to choose that location.
Charging at Alice's would be a game changer for Zeros, but only for the Zero owners, not Alice's. And only for Zeros with an L2 port. Miniscule.
It would make it within return trip range of Santa Cruz by half-battery non-L2 Zeros.
They don't need to cater...
Assertion. Sure. If you don't want to grow the EV market. I suppose they don't need to interact with vehicles of the twenty-first century.
Still, I would welcome DCFC at Skywood, as long as they're dropping millions...
Assertion. False. Even at California's inflated prices, it doesn't cost 'millions' to put in a charging station.
-Crissa
-
It's never packed when I pass by. Heck, when I've eaten there, I'm usually one of two tables or so.
Their low wages and high server turnaround do not indicate a healthy business, though.
That would support my assertion that an EV charger is the last thing they need to worry about. However, I do find it's been packed on weekends as expected, decent food and service, and you contradict their own statement (if true above) that they don't care to lose any lot space to a charger. Their lot is too busy.
The median new EV (excepting motorcycles) is 181 miles. But that really doesn't indicate installed base, does it? Or whether gaining a dozen or two miles while eating would be more convenient than not and make them more likely to choose that location.
That's plenty of range for a full day along the coast. No charging station is needed there (a Bolt would add 20% range out in a 90-minute L2 stop... meh, not needeed).
Sure. If you don't want to grow the EV market. I suppose they don't need to interact with vehicles of the twenty-first century.
It has nothing to do with what you or I want. Alice's could give a crap about growing the EV market. They don't need to. if their lot is full, it doesn't matter if they're ICE or EV. Future chargers belong over at the STP station and not Alice's anyway.
I realize you'd really like a plug there, because it would benefit you disproportionately, but that's your wish and not their problem. Keep working on them. Maybe they could become a ChargePoint location at zero cost or even profit. They'd have to run a 50A service out there.
Still, I would welcome DCFC at Skywood, as long as they're dropping millions...
Assertion. False. Even at California's inflated prices, it doesn't cost 'millions' to put in a charging station.
Wrong. Reading comprehension. I never said it did, and even documented the actual costs above. They dropped millions on the hydrogen station.
-
To illustrate that Alice's parking lot sometimes is packed to overflowing, the restaurant across the street has permanent signs and red cones lining their completely empty lot that say "No Alice's Restaurant parking here, violators will be towed". And on the weekends the adjacent state highway 35 is lined with parked cars and all of their owners are patrons of the restaurant.
-
There's lots of people stopped, but actually in Alice's?
People means there needs to be services, though.
-Crissa
-
There's lots of people stopped, but actually in Alice's?
People means there needs to be services, though.
-Crissa
Last Sunday morning there were a lot of fancy sports cars parked in Alice's lot. Around 9:30 a San Mateo County Sheriff's pickup drove up. A deputy got out with a hand-held computer device and started checking car license plates. You should have seen the owners suddenly jump in the cars and take off. After about 5 minutes, the parking lot was half empty. ;)
-
There's lots of people stopped, but actually in Alice's?
People means there needs to be services, though.
-Crissa
Last Sunday morning there were a lot of fancy sports cars parked in Alice's lot. Around 9:30 a San Mateo County Sheriff's pickup drove up. A deputy got out with a hand-held computer device and started checking car license plates. You should have seen the owners suddenly jump in the cars and take off. After about 5 minutes, the parking lot was half empty. ;)
What are they checking for? That's interesting.
-
There's lots of people stopped, but actually in Alice's?
People means there needs to be services, though.
-Crissa
Last Sunday morning there were a lot of fancy sports cars parked in Alice's lot. Around 9:30 a San Mateo County Sheriff's pickup drove up. A deputy got out with a hand-held computer device and started checking car license plates. You should have seen the owners suddenly jump in the cars and take off. After about 5 minutes, the parking lot was half empty. ;)
What are they checking for? That's interesting.
Good question. Most likely expired registration tags, stolen vehicles or stolen license plates. ???
-
Here is my favorite warning sign. ;D
-
The Hydrogen Highway is in a new lane: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54888919
-
Now that's the way to make gas ^-^
-Crissa
-
Now that's the way to make gas ^-^
-Crissa
Gotta get people to eat more beans - or we could have more elections. ;D
-
This guy is not a fan of hydrogen-powered vehicles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88v-WvqzeQ
-
For the consumer market, hydrogen is a dead end outside of Japan IMO. The chicken-egg problem is just too strong. No one will build stations because no one has the vehicles, and no one buys the vehicles because of the lack of stations. When you do find a station, it costs twice as much as gas, and the total lifecycle efficiency isn't much better than a Prius and nowhere near as green as a battery-electric. There are so many DC fast-chargers now that the old convenience argument doesn't hold water, either. The vehicles are also a lot more expensive than BEV's and have nowhere near the performance. A large enough government subsidy isn't going to happen because of the massive cost of H2 production and stations compared to the relatively cheap EV chargers.
For trucks, ships, and planes, however, it could end up being a different story.
-
The Hydrogen Highway in the Santa Cruz Mountains across from Alice's Restaurant is looking pretty sad lately. They don't even bother to shut or lock the door to the facility. So I went inside and took these photos.
-
Another photo.
-
And one more. :(
-
The weeds seem to be doing well, however. ::)
-
The machine says it will wake with the swipe of the right card. I don't have one, though.
-Crissa
-
A link in the Hydrogen Highway is being built across from Alice's Restaurant in the Santa Cruz Mountains, south of San Francisco. What a monumental boondoggle! I have heard that there are just a few H2 cars in all of California and I believe all of those are production prototypes being tested by the auto manufacturers. I am pretty sure that none are privately owned at this time.
However, should anyone in the SF Bay Area buy an H2-powered auto, they can always drive up into the mountains to find a filling station, which is being built at great expense by some government agency using taxpayer funds. (Who else would fund something like this?) This complex has been under construction all summer long and is now reaching the point where some of the equipment is being installed. Attached are photos that I took today and I will post updates as the construction continues until the project is complete and the security fencing is removed. All that equipment just to supply one filling outlet. :o I have my doubts if I will ever be able to post a hydrogen-powered car filling up at this out-of-the-way station, but if I ever see one, I will let you know. ;)
Here is a photo of the filling pump.
Soooo 5 years later & your prediction of NOT seeing this facility put to use has come true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Hydrogen_Highway
Here’s a video from early 2015 discussing the future of Hydrogen as an alternate to ICE.
https://youtu.be/r5b6SthDbsE
I suppose it can be argued that a change(s) are needed to reduce our dependency on ICE & this spending was necessary.
-
It seems to me to be not so much a case of whether or not H2 is a good idea but more a matter of infrastructure cost, maintenance of the equipment and if anyone actually wants to buy H2 powered vehicles. One big advantage to EVs is that they can be recharged at your home while you are not driving it, but you will have to likely travel many miles to access an H2 station, which may not be located along your destination path.
-
The prop at STP absolutely served its purpose, which was to dupe unaccountable government employees into forking over THREE MILLION DOLLARS of tax receipts to people much cleverer than them.
-
The prop at STP absolutely served its purpose, which was to dupe unaccountable government employees into forking over THREE MILLION DOLLARS of tax receipts to people much cleverer than them.
It's exactly the opposite: It's the result of forking over government money to build out a project. The station only exists because of the government money, and it shows that only the government has the pockets to actually change and build the infrastructure we need. Private industry won't do it.
-Crissa
-
The prop at STP absolutely served its purpose, which was to dupe unaccountable government employees into forking over THREE MILLION DOLLARS of tax receipts to people much cleverer than them.
It's exactly the opposite: It's the result of forking over government money to build out a project. The station only exists because of the government money, and it shows that only the government has the pockets to actually change and build the infrastructure we need. Private industry won't do it.
If the station had any merit, I might agree with that. But no, it's a disappointing boondoggle, poorly conceived with no future, a foreseeable waste of our money that could have gone to good use.
-
It can be both.
-Crissa
-
I hate to revive this thread, but has this thing ever been operational? I've never seen anyone use it and the one time I went over to check out the pump I don't think it was even working.
-
I hate to revive this thread, but has this thing ever been operational? I've never seen anyone use it and the one time I went over to check out the pump I don't think it was even working.
To the best of my knowledge, the H2 station at Sky Londa is not operational and never has been. One likely reason is that no one has leased the facility to operate it. The other reason is that all of the H2 vehicles in the area are located in the flatlands and would be very unlikely to drive up to Skyline Boulevard to refuel when they could get their H2 at stations located between SF and San Jose, along Highway 101 and El Camino Real.
-
I hate to revive this thread, but has this thing ever been operational? I've never seen anyone use it and the one time I went over to check out the pump I don't think it was even working.
To the best of my knowledge, the H2 station at Sky Londa is not operational and never has been. One likely reason is that no one has leased the facility to operate it. The other reason is that all of the H2 vehicles in the area are located in the flatlands and would be very unlikely to drive up to Skyline Boulevard to refuel when they could get their H2 at stations located between SF and San Jose, along Highway 101 and El Camino Real.
According to this...... https://cafcp.org/stationmap
it’s due to come on line in a few months 🤣
-
I hate to revive this thread, but has this thing ever been operational? I've never seen anyone use it and the one time I went over to check out the pump I don't think it was even working.
To the best of my knowledge, the H2 station at Sky Londa is not operational and never has been. One likely reason is that no one has leased the facility to operate it. The other reason is that all of the H2 vehicles in the area are located in the flatlands and would be very unlikely to drive up to Skyline Boulevard to refuel when they could get their H2 at stations located between SF and San Jose, along Highway 101 and El Camino Real.
According to this...... https://cafcp.org/stationmap
it’s due to come on line in a few months 🤣
I'll believe it when I see it. ::) If the station opens, I will be the first to post photos of it here. ;)
-
This is an interesting news report regarding what happened when a Hyundai Tucson H2 owner's car stopped and he found out how much it would cost to repair it's dead fuel cell: https://www.thedrive.com/news/hyundai-tucson-fcev-owner-shocked-by-113k-repair-bill-for-hydrogen-fuel-cell
-
That is an easy to write article. How many of the 1000 produced are still in use? How about the ones that went bad during the 5 year warranty period? My guess is there is a clause that they can buy you out instead of fix it. The newer one's pieces won't fit the earlier ones.
-
An article in my newspaper today, published by CalMatters, says that California "may pay $300 million for hydrogen fuel stations despite low demand". The article says that "Chevron, Shell and Toyota are seeking a 30% share of money from the state Clean Transportation Program, amounting to $300 million over the next decade." The program is funded by annual fees paid by California drivers, $6 every time you renew your license each year.
"So far, the California Energy commission has spent $202 million for hydrogen fuel stations. Yet there is still low demand for the cars, with sluggish sales. Only two hydrogen models are available, the Toyota Mirai and the Hundai Nexo, and only 1,767 have been sold in California this year. Last year's sales declined 20%, although sales are up this summer."
"In all, Californians own only about 12,000 hydrogen-powered cars, compared to more than 760,000 powered by batteries."
H2 stations will triple by 2027, resulting in four times more than the amount needed to support even the vehicle manufacturer's best case expected volume.
Meanwhile, the state estimates that it will need nearly 1.2 million chargers for battery-powered cars by 2030. Only about 88,000 are now installed.
-
This is the thing I find humorous about this whole movement. They'll cry and whine about lack of availability to charge their electric cars, then turn around and run to Hydrogen, which has an even worse support infrastructure in place!
Are the people seriously THAT retarded or what?
Oh wait, for only 56K you can get a HOME HYDROGEN GENERATOR CHARGING SYSTEM!!!!!!
FWIW, Hydrogen is not lighter either. Those bottles to hold either the pressurized H2 OR if they substrate it, are heavy as shit, so NO there really is no weight advantage over electric and Li Batteries. It takes gobs of electric to break down water into H2 for your car, which means energy waste in the process, so why not just stick with the electric car and not waste that power in the splitting process? If you are doing this H2 thing, because you claim to care about mother earth, wank wank eyes roll back ahhhh puke.... educate yourself, you really are NOT doing ANYONE any favors with this one doofus!
Im just saying, some of us are geeky nerd boys who love cutting edge fringe tech and yes we WILL pay the stupid high prices to be first, or to get in on the cutting edge etc etc, but for more normal people, you KNOW what it is, you SEE what it is, so quit crying about it's price, wait for it to tech itself out and come down like every OTHER tech to this point has!
I LOVE my electric bike! but also am fully aware, no there are NOT going to be fast chargers every other street corner for me, to support my bike! That day, is honestly years if not decades away!
Now, with all that being said. EVERYBODY LOVES FREE SHIT!!! Don't fucking pretend you don't because you will be a liar if you do!! But is it really 'fair' that every single driver on the road has to pay for YOUR VEHICLE? One could argue that you pay taxes too so yes, which is a lovely communistic reply but at the end of the day, do you like paying 1000 a year for someone else to be able to drive their fringe-mobile. Wouldn't you like to keep that money for YOURSELF, to pay for your OWN vehicle??
I'll take it while it's there, I won't BS you and say I won't, but the days of 'the masses' supplementing your electric / hydrogen etc etc,vehicle are going to be gone real soon! the ICE people are getting tired of it, and you honestly can not blame them one bit!
I very soon see, where every year, when you renew your tags at the DMV, they start taxing you by your Odometer to get the taxes that used to be baked into gasoline sales. It's coming. Hold on!
If not that, then every charging station, their 'fees' will include all kinds of BS taxes that politicians will figure out a way to put into them. How snazzy and 'cheaper' than ICE is your E - car now?
Aaron
-
My newspaper had a comment in a column today from a SF Bay Area driver of a hydrogen-powered Toyota Mirai complaining about the cost of hydrogen fuel for her vehicle. She said that the cost per liter has risen from $16 one year ago to nearly $36 now. She was asking why the price has increased so much. She also commented that: "The half-dozen hydrogen stations in the greater San Jose area seem to be offline an awful lot, especially lately." She goes on to say: "Half the time we can't even pay the high prices if we wanted to! It is becoming a real inconvenience." She asks what is going on with H2 fuel and the poorly maintained stations?
The fellow writing the "Roadshow" column commented that: "Our daughter drove a hydrogen-powered car for a few years and also found the refueling very inconvenient at times." He asks his readers if they know more about the hydrogen fuel market than he does.
-
Power plants use hydrogen extensively for generator cooling. Those prices are spiking as well. Not sure why the fuel side is getting so ridiculous though, it should pretty much be the same truck that delivers it to the gas station as the power station.
You said they sell it per liter, so the car uses liquid hydrogen? hmm how do they keep it cool?
Aaron
-
Maybe the Hydrogen market is kind of like the Damon and Lightning motorcycle scene in that it is the moto journalists that get to have a positive outcome. Like, subscribe, comment must benefit the sites and authors.
I have stood by a compressor for sucba diving tanks. It looked to be 6 stage and was noisy. Add to that just getting the hydrogen to the compressor. Sure you can go liquid like a liquid oxygen tank that vents to cool if withdraw is not happening.
Years ago before internet forums I was going to a discussion group (you did this in the same program for email and came standard with a dial up account) I kind of gave up when the low pressure dissolved in something spelled close to hydride or halide quite similar to acetylene dissolved in acetone, I am familiar with. Even PBS nova program at the time had shows showing shooting with a rifle that storage method and gasoline tank.
If you think about it we are compressing natural gas to send to places, so they don't buy pipeline gas from countries that we put economic sanctions on. Where is the base stock for this hydrogen coming from?
-
Power plants use hydrogen extensively for generator cooling. Those prices are spiking as well. Not sure why the fuel side is getting so ridiculous though, it should pretty much be the same truck that delivers it to the gas station as the power station.
You said they sell it per liter, so the car uses liquid hydrogen? hmm how do they keep it cool?
Aaron
I was wondering about that too. If you have seen the photos of the Skylonda H2 station that I have posted in this thread before you will see that the station sure has a lot of equipment doing something. I can only assume that it (if it was operating) manufactures H2 from electrical power, pressures the H2 and then cools it really cold, storing it in very well insulated containers. Then it must be delivered to the vehicle under high pressure (you get your choice of 350 bar or 700 bar from the pump). Sounds like more trouble than it is worth. If it is sold by the liter for $36, I sure hope that you can go a lot further on H2 than on a liter of gas or a few KWh of electricity. I also wonder how much of the cost are taxes?
-
I can not see a car using liquid hydrogen unless it's in a substrate like Acetylene is in vermiculite basically. Hydrogen typically is not a liquid at room temps no matter how hard it's compressed, it needs to be cooled. But as mentioned, they vent. We have small hydrogen fires all the time on the units, you can barely see them, they are pretty much invisible except in the dead of night you see the faint glow of the flame. The friction of hissing thru a pinhole leak will ignite it. Hydrogen is stupidly flammable and very explosive too. It can be compressed pretty good though, the trucks have huge steel flasks they tote it around in
aaron
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMB2VR0087w
-
Acetylene in the cylinder is dissolved in acetone. I am or was under the impression there was a honeycomb like structure in the tank maybe that is vermiculite. The word is Metal hydrides I found that here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage I suspect it is a gas to solid no liquid hydrogen involved.
My search choice currently is bing and it is AI now and very frustrating however it suggested this article.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25349983 Squeeze olivine and get serpentine and hydrogen. Sounds like minerals in basalt.
-
It is most likely compressed, kind of like the CNG vehicles you see running about, probably a few K/psi. I remember the day the moron over filled our Hydrogen tank and lifted the safety, holy shit it sounded like the space shuttle was taking off, shook the whole building for a few minutes. Needless to say, that driver never came back.
I have not did a thorough search, nor have I went into the wayback machine but they used to sell a BBQ that ran off of hydrogen gas, claimed the meat was very moist, because well, the waste gas is water. That would just be so dangerous though, lighting it and if you had the slightest leak, man. I also remember one day we did a balloon like that video and we set it loose over the St Johns river in the middle of the night, with about a 40 foot string and some lighter fluid on it, umm. let's just say it was... moving.... the hardest part was going outside like everyone else, and trying to play the ..derp... what was that?? game without laughing our asses off. ahh the stupidity of youth :D
Aaron
-
There are two (non-functioning) pumps at the H2 station. One is marked 350 bar and the other 700 bar. I am not sure what that converts to psi, but it does sound like the H2 is highly compressed and not liquid. I am also not sure how you measure a liter of compressed gas. ???
-
Bar is basically a fancy term to say atmosphere pressure, or atmospheres. 14.5 is a good number for an estimate. Every bar is 14.5 psi. so roughly 5000 and 10000 PSI for those pumps.
with newer tech, the storage tanks are spun material and composites now instead of steel in many applications to save weight. It will still be a gas I believe. You would have to bring it to about 250 C below zero and around 1000 bar to liquify it if I remember my tables correctly.
Aaron
-
I am also not sure how you measure a liter of compressed gas. ???
In the welding gasses the volume of gas you get billed for or the cylinders are called is in standard cubic feet at 40psi. The biggest compressed gas cylinder to choose in normal use is 336 and the next size down is 220. Generally, those have to be leased maybe the biggest you can own and get refilled/swapped out is 80 or so though that probably can vary. Natural gas lots of meters visible on the retail billing end and surely bigger higher pressure ones near the well head.
Also hydrogen embrittlement of steel. Hydrogen dis associates into H as opposed to a molecule H2. H is super tiny and gets into the steel crystal or grain structure but if it meets up with another H it turns into H2 which is much bigger. On beyond the freezing of water and expanding and breaking stuff. I thought it was general knowledge. No steel tanks. Maybe the real long one foot diameter tanks you see on a big rig are steel but they sure must keep track for an expiration date. One of those kind of hydrogen trucks came off the highway in a crash and the fire dept evacuated quite a few houses, must have been 10 or so years ago now in the western part of the state. Might have been silly hydrogen is real light and goes up but who knows what the emergency responders can do in a crash situation.
-
The attached article contains more information regarding public H2 fueling stations in California. It sounds like Shell has lost interest in the public H2 business.
-
I haven't heard much about using Hydrogen power to generate electricity lately, but I did hear this morning that the California PUC approved the continued use of California's last nuclear power station until the year 2030. It was scheduled to close, due to its ageing infrastructure and cost of maintenance (plus being built next to an earthquake fault), in 2025. PG&E, the owner of the facility, says that it will cost over $8 billion to keep the plant running another five years. The utility company is likely already planning electric rate increases to pay for the future maintenance of the reactors.
-
I really can not see them using Hydrogen to generate electricity, especially when they are using electricity to get the hydrogen in the first place, for the most part and the whole round trip is costly, energy wise. I can't even see them using H2 as a storage medium for excess power production short term until the evening duck bill hits, or the cloudy week rolls in. There are other ways to store energy that are much safer and cheaper.
Even then, power plants, shit leaks, if you ever worked at a gas fired plant, you smell it all over the place, it's the nature of the beast. Hydrogen is so FKN dangerous, ignites SO easy and you can't see the flames really when it burns, unlike NG where you can see the flame pretty easy.
Hydrogen needs special materials too, the molecule is so small it seeps out very easy AND it is very hard on steel / steel alloys. They get brittle and wear out much faster.
Anytime I had to work on the H2 system, even for minor stuff like replacing a gauge or something, id always take the IR gun with me to check for fires before I touched a thing. Nothing will wake you up in the morning faster than going to turn a lever to open up the cock for a pressure gauge and feeling the hair on your arm singe because there was a tiny leak and it ignited itself coming out that pinhole leak from the friction. YES the stuff really is that unstable.
Aaron
-
Today we have more hydrogen highway news. This time it compares H2 busses with all electric busses. It would appear that the Santa Cruz bus transit plan is to go all in on H2 and just hope it works out. Page 1.
-
Page 2.
-
Well, for rapid turn around it would make a bit more sense, you can refill the H2 in about 15 minutes .vs. an hour or so to charge the battery. Especially for a bus, which in theory, may be running 24 hours a day. Going to be expensive though. Why not just go with propane, or LNG which although is less energy dense, at least there's sort of an infrastructure there already. A bus does not have to go 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds.
Aaron
-
I can appreciate you scanning in the newspaper as opposed to posting a link with lots of advertising and who knows what else behind the scenes. Page 2 is just too tiny in this instance.
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-02-california-mandating-emissions-bay-area.html
-
I can appreciate you scanning in the newspaper as opposed to posting a link with lots of advertising and who knows what else behind the scenes. Page 2 is just too tiny in this instance.
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-02-california-mandating-emissions-bay-area.html
That is odd. I don't have any problem reading page 2 and my eyesight sucks. ??? Did you click on the picture to enlarge the thumbnail in my post?
-
Yes I clicked on it, opened it in new window I did somelthing to download to my download folder as a 342kb file opened it in photos which is the default picture opening file. it is about 830x635 pixels. I guess now if I open it in paint and do zoom in it is readable but still better to type in the author and a few words in the title into seardh.
I
-
I have been hearing and reading about fuel cell research for years. Sure some of it was used during the manned moon missions but I am not thinking that far back. Kind of local as in state level like what you post about state for you. I have not heard about vehicles run on compressed air for quite a whild so things might be looking up. If the green electricity and used it to pump water up and then used it to run a turbine to recharge batteries later how would that compare to the effeciency of this? Are there any purity issues with hydrogen. I think that is a problem with gasoline fuel cell. Am I dreaming, something about a fuel cell Corvette (gasoline) that was when the dow index was around 7000. Not sure about natural gas fuel cell there is one electricity generating fuel cell of that sort I have read about in this state.
-
Yes I clicked on it, opened it in new window I did somelthing to download to my download folder as a 342kb file opened it in photos which is the default picture opening file. it is about 830x635 pixels. I guess now if I open it in paint and do zoom in it is readable but still better to type in the author and a few words in the title into seardh.
I
From now on I will try to resize my article camera photos (I don't own a scanner) as close to the forum's 600kb limit as I can.