ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: macstructures on February 14, 2019, 04:37:52 AM
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Hi,
Its been a while since I post on this forum... but still have my DSR.
I had an issue with my front break and took it to an Authorized dealer a month ago... after a few issues, a warranty claim was filed with Zero. It was denied due to the warranty period of 2 yrs was over. I bought the motorcycle in June 2017, so I still have a few months of the limited warranty. I called Zero and find out that the motorcycle was "sold" to the dealer as a demonstrator, warranty started on Nov 2015.
Not to make this post too long... have any members deal with this type of issues from a dealer?
The bill of sale states the motorcycle as NEW, it had zero miles when I purchase it.
Do we have to now call or contact Zero Motorcycles and make sure we are buying a NEW motorcycle?
Please advise. Thanks >:(
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And yet this guy (https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/2033871953348669/?sale_post_id=2033871953348669&comment_id=2034107646658433&reply_comment_id=2034117959990735¬if_id=1549730264480319¬if_t=group_comment) insists that his 2014 Zeroes are "brand new" and have the full 5 year warranty.
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Wow, it's hard to believe a demo bike could sit around for a year and a half with no test rides!
- Was there a total lack of buyer interest for 18 months?
- Did the dealer keep it in the back the whole time?
- Did the dealer categorize it wrongly as new?
- Did Zero categorize it wrongly as a demo? Seems more likely than the above things.
Some research of paperwork should resolve whether it's the dealer's mistake or Zero's.
- The responsible party should maybe eat cost of repairs through Oct '19 to avoid a small claims case.
- If you paid full retail for a demo you should get a refund of the price difference.
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Wow, it's hard to believe a demo bike could sit around for a year and a half with no test rides!
- Was there a total lack of buyer interest for 18 months? not sure... found it online at an authorized dealer, it was listed as part of their inventory.
- Did the dealer keep it in the back the whole time? maybe...but this dealership is big with several models for sale at the time of purchase.
- Did the dealer categorize it wrongly as new? not sure... I think maybe they are getting demo models from Zero at a discounted price, then selling them as new... mine had only 2 miles.
- Did Zero categorize it wrongly as a demo? Seems more likely than the above things. This was Zeros answered ..."We have reviewed our internal systems and confirmed the motorcycle with VIN#XXX5827 was sold as a demonstrator."
Some research of paperwork should resolve whether it's the dealer's mistake or Zero's. ... Yes, working on it.
- The responsible party should maybe eat cost of repairs through Oct '19 to avoid a small claims case. I received a email from Zero today... " As a goodwill gesture in this instance, we are going to go ahead and cover the cost of the brake repair."
- If you paid full retail for a demo you should get a refund of the price difference. I did not paid full price, the listed price online minus a little that we negotiated over the phone... this dealer is 7 hrs from my home.
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Do you know if Zero offers extended warranties? I going to request some type of extended warranty to cover the gap.
Also, do you have a contact at Zero that may help me with warranty issues? I been dealing with Aaron (customer service), he help me with the claim (Thanks)... but no luck so far with the warranty.
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This is copied from Zero's web page under the "owner" section.
B. What is the Coverage Period for Demonstrators?
The duration of this Limited Warranty for demonstrator 2019 Zero Motorcycles, not including the Power Packs, is a period of two (2) years and 90 days from the original “shipment date.â€
Note: The “shipment date†is the date that Zero ships the demonstrator 2019 Zero Motorcycle to the authorized dealer.
The duration of this Limited Warranty for the Power Packs (not including the Power Pack’s outer case) is:
Five (5) years and 90 days from the “shipment date†for ZF3.6 and ZF7.2 Power Pack Modules on the Zero FX/FXS
Five (5) years and 90 days from the “shipment date†of the host 2019 Zero FX/FXS ZF3.6 Motorcycle for the ZF3.6 Power Pack upgrade. If purchased after the host Power Pack warranty has expired, the additional Power Pack will receive the standard accessory warranty of one (1) year from date of purchase.
Five (5) years and 90 days from the “shipment date†of the host 2019 Zero S/SR/DS/DSR Motorcycle for the Z-Force® Power Tank accessory. If purchased after the host Power Pack warranty has expired, the Power Tank will receive the standard warranty of one (1) year from date of purchase.
Five (5) years and 90 days from the “shipment date†for the ZF7.2 and ZF14.4 Z-Force® Li-Ion Power Packs on the 2019 Zero S/SR/DS/DSR Motorcycle.
In 2013 and "maybe" 2014 this wasn't the rule. It was the date of purchase. They dropped this and it did do one good thing for the customer. It got dealers to drop the price of the bikes to get them out the door before too much warranty expires. I think they did it when they started only making dealers carry two demo bikes and not buy the whole fleet. My dealer had told me they have to keep the demo at least 6 months before they can sell it.
The only way I know to get a full 2 year warranty now is to go in and order a "new" bike and when it comes the warranty starts. But of course you will pay full price for the bike. I did write to them and ask that they go back to the old way but I see they have kept it this way.
Hey mine runs out on Friday so I'm with ya.
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Glad Zero is taking care of you! You got some truly personalized service if Aaron was handling it. There are still interesting unanswered questions, but it's good business that they resolved it quickly and privately.
My 2016 went out of warranty a couple months ago, yet my dealer just sent a second offer of extended warranty, which I'm thinking about. I don't know if it's organized by Zero or independently by the dealer. I'll call them about it.
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What sucks is that I bought a new motorcycle expecting a full 2 years warranty on it and technically only had 8 months left of the 27 months. If the dealer was honest from the beginning and said that it was a demo and disclosed the warranty info... then I would have negotiated a little more or canceled on the deal... all cards on the table from the beginning.
Im in the process of contacting the dealer and see what they can do about it.
I hope other members and Zero add something on their system showing what this and maybe others dealers are doing. This type of "deals" don't help Zero and future customers. We are already have enough problems acquiring new customer and owners and this situations do not help at all.
Im glad zero cover the break issue... but would like them to correct the problem internally with the dealer... and between Zero and the dealer work out an "extended waranty" paid buy them and add it to my motorcycle. In my opinion this is an internal issue and should NOT be something an owner should be concerned about.
It is like me going to a car dealership, test drive a new vehicle, closed the deal... and if a problem arrises later on during the warranty period... have claim problem because you assumed it was a NEW vehicle. I never had this type of problem with a new vehicle.
Im considering buying a second Zero for my wife...don't want to share mine... but now I will call Zero and double check VIN numbers before a purchase... a step on a new purchase that should NOT be required.
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In any case the entity you can / sue is the dealer. On of course you can sue them on the basis of what they wrote, not what they said.
Did you have any mention / indication of the warranty start date ? Did they write anything that could have fooled you ?
If this dealer lied to you, you should share its name so that the community knows who to avoid...
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Maybe I should stay off this but it is interesting.
What was on the certificate of origin? Without pulling out a title I think there is a spot where it says new or I suppose something else besides used could be put in. That is what one takes to motor vehicles and they keep and issue a title? Maybe the dealer got the plate and did the motor vehicle thing.
Kind of different from buying a pick up truck where the sales person wants to find one on the locator instead of ordering one just the way I like it and says I should not care if it has some miles on it because it is warrantied same as new.
My experience was the test ride day the bikes came in a (kind of mini) van from out of state. The sales pitch was pretty much spec it out like you like it, it only takes 5 days to make it and then shipping time. Those are the ones with the desired warranty. The few ones on the floor are likely what this post is about. The fees, conveyance, shipping, and others I forget were way out of line from what I was expecting to the point the msrp had dubious meaning.
What is the issue with the brakes? I think you spelled it differently.
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At this moment I don't want to share the name of the authorized dealer, Im still waiting on the sales manager to call me back with an update. I also emailed Zero today asking them if they offer extended warranties and if they do, have the dealer purchase one to cover the gap in insurance.
I purchased the motorcycle 7 hrs from my house... out of state... the sales tax and registration was not paid at the dealer. I received a Bill of Sale, and next to the VIN number it has NEW, I think this will be the location where DEMO or something similar should be written.
It also had zero miles on it at the time of purchase, so I never thought it was a demo. On their website it was not disclosed that it was a DEMO. All information provided by the sales person, manager and finance office stated that it was NEW.
I will keep posting information as I receive it.
In one of the emails that I sent to Zero I stated that Zero needed to contact this dealership and fine them, or correct the problem, but customer service said it was a dealer issue not Zeros. I think this type of problems is something is going to affect more Zero than the dealership... gaining trust on Zero and new technology is not easy and hopefully Zero will do more ...and not let us owners fix this type of problems.
The only reason that I found out that I have a "demo" was that issue with the front brake... and that the other authorized dealer filed a claimed and it was denied due to warranty expiration.
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To answer the brake problem....I was riding the motorcycle a couple of months ago and noticed that the front brake was not as responsive as it usually was, and luckily I was able to use the rear brake fast enough to bring the motorcycle to a full stop before entering a busy intersection. After pumping the front brake lever several times to improve brake fluid flow it did not help. I was several blocks from my destination and had to ride the motorcycle very slow until I got to my destination. A couple of persons that work with me helped me and we were able to move the motorcycle out of the way… since I could not use the Zero Brake Lever Lock to keep it from rolling down the sidewalk.
My wife picked me up and I came back to my work place with a trailer to pick up the motorcycle… I didn't want to ride it without an operational front break.
I don't have with me the invoice from the dealership that fixed the problem... but will add more info later to help solve future problems.
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I don't know if it ever says demo or not. If they bike wasn't registered to a person I think most states would consider that "new" for title and tax credit purposes, but if the dealer bought it from Zero and put it on the floor that falls under Zero's demo category. Whether they let anyone test ride wouldn't keep it from being a demo in Zero's view.
I wish they wouldn't do this but in the early days I think they got taken advantage of with dealers not dropping prices on older models and not selling them for 2 or more years and Zero having to pay to fix issues of a bike not being used or charged correctly in that time.
I figure the warranty to be worth about 2k for the full two years and if you paid 2k or more less than MSRP your ahead of the game anyway.
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I was sold a demo bike and the salesman insisted that that all warranties begin when I purchase the bike. I had read the manual so I was skeptical. After asking about 10 times they finally made a note of it on the sales paperwork.
Zero recently sent them a new battery since one of the modules in my bike was dead, but the warranty for the battery would be effective regardless (2017 model).
So, I don't really have anything to report but I am setup for a interesting situation for any warranty claims with zero in the future.
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I called Zero and find out that the motorcycle was "sold" to the dealer as a demonstrator, warranty started on Nov 2015.
I found that our during my buying process. I was thinking of buying someone's used 2018 demo bike, but called Zero and found out on demo bikes that they start the warranty clock on the day they ship it out. So if they ship it in October 2016, that's when the warranty starts on that bike.
Same with buying new at the dealership. When I bought my FX a few weeks back, the dealer offered to let me take the demo, but knowing the above info, I opted to order a brand new one from the factory at the same price so I would get the full warranty.
I kinda get why they do it, but it seems like an exception should be made for the OP's case.
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By the way, I asked my dealer about this and they didn't know. They thought the demo's AND ordered bikes both had warranties started on the date of purchase. Since I knew that wasn't the case, I went ahead and ordered mine new.
Basically saying, their dealers might not know this fact.
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My dealer was clear about this point. I dont know if your dealer did know and lied, did not know but did not try to know either and said whathever needed to sell, or if they made a mistake. 1) is fraud 2) is amateurism.
if your case is really the way you presented it, Zero's attitude is a shame, but unfortunately you are far from being the first in this situation...
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Sales staff at vehicle dealerships come and go, especially at multi-brand stores. It is quite likely that many of these sales people do not know that much about the vehicle that they are selling, much less the intricacies if each brand's warranty details. (Although, of course they should.) That could also be true of the shop's owner.
The only reason that I can think of for Zero to start a warranty when one of their vehicles leaves the factory, instead of when it is sold to the customer, is that they are worried that the retail dealership will not keep the battery pack properly charged before it is sold to a customer. Otherwise, why should their motorcycle warranty not start with the sale to the customer like every other ICE vehicle sold in the world? I bet if this issue ever went to small claims court, the judge would agree that the warranty starts with the sale - unless the warranty language or sales agreement was very clear that it started when the bike was built.
I am glad that my 2009 BMW F650GS didn't have a warranty like that. It left the factory in Germany in June 2008, but didn't arrive at my dealership until September 2008, which was when I bought the bike. My 3-year warranty started from the date that I took possession of the motorcycle. The delay was due to BMW not wanting to ship a new model to their dealerships until they had enough vehicles for each of their 300 shops to have at least three to sell at the same time. So they held back shipping the bikes around the country until they had enough in stock at their U.S. warehouse to do that.
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Agree. This is very short term calculation on Zero's side.
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they are worried that the retail dealership will not keep the battery pack properly charged before it is sold to a customer.
This was one of the keys for me going with a new Zero. I've read multiple times in multiple manuals that failing to properly care for the battery can put you in a bind. I really wanted to start with a brand new, full warranty battery that I know was maintained properly from the get go.
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Well... I thought I was buying a NEW motorcycle... being a fairly new technology wanted to buy something with as much warranty as possible... and drove 7 hrs to get it.
I suggest that all Zero customers check with Zero to confirm if the motorcycle that they purchased is actually a new motorcycle... and when did the warranty actually started... to avoid this type of scenarios in the future.
I still think Zero has more to lose in this scenario.... if I were Zero I will backup my current owners and correct the warranty date to the date that I purchased it and give me the full 27 months of limited warranty... in my case it will be 6 more months from today.
Then contact the authorized dealer, find out what is going on, and make sure it is representing Zero the way it should be, and between them workout the specifics on it. Keep the customer and owners happy... we are the ones riding the motorcycles and spreading the work on this type of motorcycles.
For example I have 2 other motorcycles, these are HD. I decided to take one for service a couple of years ago... at the time of service it was 9 yrs old... during the schedule service the technician found a defective part, call me to let me know that it was defective and that he will contact HD headquaters to confirm... a couple of days later... he called me back, they ordered the part, replaced it at no charge to me.... on a 9yrs old motorcycle...way out of warranty.
Do you think Im going to go back to that dealership, or keep buying this brand... hell yes!!!
I love to ride and will keep riding my Zero and the other ICE motorcycles that I have.... and I'm glad that Zero paid for the claim.... but disappointed on the warranty problem.
I take my Zero to more that 100 EV events in the KC metro area... Im a member of the Mid America Electric Car Association... and happy to help Zero gain more customers... but disappointed on this issue. I know it is not all Zero's fault ... but it could have been handled in a more proffesional way.
Zero still has time to make it right... hopefully employees are also members of this forum and post their opinions... and maybe give me a great discount on my next Zero or battery packs. :)
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but disappointed on the warranty problem.
I wouldn't call it a problem so much. It's spelled out pretty clearly in the manual:
"B. What is the Coverage Period for Demonstrators?
The duration of this Limited Warranty for demonstrator
2019 Zero Motorcycles, not including the Power Packs, is
a period of two (2) years and 90 days from the original
“shipment date.â€
Note: The “shipment date†is the date that Zero ships the
Demonstrator Motorcycle to the authorized dealer.
Versus:
A. What is the Coverage Period for
Non-Demonstrators?
The duration of this Limited Warranty for Non-Demonstrator
2019 Motorcycles, not including the Power Packs, is a period
of two (2) years from the original “in service date.â€
Note: The “in service date†is the date that the authorized
dealer performs a pre-delivery inspection (“PDIâ€) and
delivers the motorcycle to the customer. In the event these
events occur on different dates, the later date shall be the
“in service date.â€
It sounds like the dealer should read up on it and let the customer know.
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As far as the please advise. Most businesses need to register with the state and pay a fee for the privelage of doing business. Here in Connecticut we also have to pay a fee for the privelage and responsibility of collecting sales tax.
Writing a paper letter to the consumer protection department will in my experience force a written response mailed back to consumer protection and consumer protection sends me a copy. I have only done it recently for entities that send out bills and have push the button over and over when one tries to contact them eventually getting dropped or bumped back to the begining.
Just out of memory from reading warranty stuff there is generally a clause about it only applies in states that allow all the intricies. Selling a new with zero miles bike without making the buyer sign they understand the warranty stuff if not starting at the purchace date sure seems out of line to me.
Fran
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I understand the difference between the demonstrator and non-demonstrator coverage ... my point is that I was purchasing a NEW (non-demonstrator) motorcycle... and the dealer or paperwork did not disclosed that it was a demonstrator. For almost 2 yrs I thought I had a non-demonstrator model until I needed a repair covered by the warranty.
My suggestion to other owners is to double check with Zero using your VIN number the type of coverage that you still have.
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You are repeating yourself. Everyone agrees that a new bike must come with a full warranty.
When you talk to the dealer on the phone, what do they say? Do they think they sold you a demo? Was the price you paid consistent with a demo? Come on, these are easy questions that should be cleared up by reviewing your paperwork and the dealer's. If you are right then it should be an open and shut case.
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I called a couple of times and tried to get a hold of the Sales manager.... so far no luck. The dealer is closed today and tomorrow. Will call on Tuesday.
I contacted Zero first... I thought it was an error on their system. All my paperwork has it as NEW.
What would be a "consistent" demo price?
Any thing that is used or "demo" in this case, has several variables that will determine the asking price and what the buyer is willing to pay for it.
Mileage, year, condition of it (scratched or dent) and other incentives that the seller is willing to add to make the sale. So the price that I paid for it has nothing to do with it.
I can buy a New vehicle/motorcycle and drive it around the block (less than 2 miles) ... go back to the dealership and try to sell it back to them... and if Im lucky get maybe 80% of the original price.
Are you suggesting that if I or any other person negotiates or gets a good deal on a motorcycle... I have to assume that it is used or demo and maybe no or partial warranty on it?
The main reason for this post is to make aware other owners of this type of situation, if interested check on the warranty status on the motorcycle that you own contacting Zero and to see if others had the same problem, and what was the outcome of it.
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Are you suggesting that if I or any other person negotiates or gets a good deal on a motorcycle... I have to assume that it is used or demo and maybe no or partial warranty on it?
Definitely not. It's just that if you paid list price, that would be immediate and incontrovertible evidence to exert on the sales guy.
But I'm sure you'll be able to communicate with the dealer and clear it up. I also don't think it's cause for alarm for others because in the unlikely event it ever happened, they could also clear it up. Good luck Tuesday.
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Returning to the OP, I'm also having problems the the front brake on my 2018 S. Major brake chatter. The rotor eventually warped, was replaced under warranty, but the chatter is the same or worse with a new rotor. I don't know if the problem is a flawed front wheel or front brake pads.
How to proceed?
I paid a ton of money to be a semi-early adopter, and there truly is a lot to like about my Zero, but dragging out this brake issue is a huge waste of my limited time and a PITA, too. Kinda spoiling all the fun that makes the Zero worth the extra cost.
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Returning to the OP, I'm also having problems the the front brake on my 2018 S. Major brake chatter. The rotor eventually warped, was replaced under warranty, but the chatter is the same or worse with a new rotor. I don't know if the problem is a flawed front wheel or front brake pads.
How to proceed?
I paid a ton of money to be a semi-early adopter, and there truly is a lot to like about my Zero, but dragging out this brake issue is a huge waste of my limited time and a PITA, too. Kinda spoiling all the fun that makes the Zero worth the extra cost.
I think the problem is a wrong brake pad choice. I would try a different set of pads. My front brake squealed loudly as soon I bought the bike. Picking up some auto brake pad anti-squeal compound at an auto accessory store and coating the back of the pads will cut the noise significantly. That is what I did and it helped. However, I also bought a new set of pads and will give those a try some day.
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Update:
I been going back and forth with Zero customer service department and they covered the claimed, it was a small claim $150, other than that that is it... they did not help me contacting the authorized dealership and help me the customer and owner with adjusting the warranty coverage period.
IMO I think it is pretty bad customer service... I was expecting Zero to contact the dealership, make them pay for this claim and any others (hopefully I don't have a more problems). I will adjust Zero's warranty system and matched it with my purchase date giving me the customer/owner a full 27 months warranty, that technically will expire on September 2019... a few months from now.
But...NO.. Zero's customer service washed their hands of the problem.... and pass it to the customer/owner to deal with their Authorized dealer... what a shame.
Like I told Zero, i will keep riding my motorcycle... enjoying it every chance that I get... but having doubts and really thinking about NOT buying a second Zero for my wife. An issue that will cost nothing to Zero (the dealer will pay for the claim) ... its potentially costing Zero a new motorcycle (my wife's) and a dissatisfied customer/owner.
I will post dealership information sometime next week... I have to contact them directly... I have been out of town... and I was hopping that Zero will do it.