ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: meark on July 09, 2019, 04:10:16 AM
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So my 2017 DSR is dead.. just past 3k miles. Turned on and lights were just flashing at me. Called the dealer and they said it had to be towed in for service.. Warranty and dealer won't cover towing, no replacement vehicle.. After 2 weeks at the dealer they said it has to go back to Zero for servicing. Luckily I live close to Zero headquarters. Going on 4 weeks now and might be done by the end of the week.
1. I bought an electric bike so I can save on gas.. Had to us a gas vehicle the past 3+ weeks.
2. I bought an electric bike on the premise that there should be nothing to repair.. haha yeah right..
3. I'm paying for a vehicle I can't use.. depreciating every minute..
I really enjoy my Zero DSR for commuting, but it just seems the technology and service is not up to my standards. I have never had to wait a week for a repair let alone a month.
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1: Saving on gas is the dumbest reason to buy an ebike. You pay a gigantic premium that could have bought many many gallons. If you're doing it to save the planet that's dumb too. Your own use of fossil fuels will be smaller than microscopic in a planet-wide context even if you REALLY stepped up your game and started filling up tankers or 747s or something.
2: What, you thought electronics are invulnerable to damage? This is somewhere between believing you can fly if you take a running jump out your office window and expecting Santa Claus to come down your chimney.
3: If you're worried about either being deprived of a vehicle or depreciation you bought a motorcycle you couldn't afford. That's because if you had any business spending beaucoup bucks on a DSR you can easily afford multiple alternative vehicles.
Oh and all that aside, Zero's service does suck and is inexcusable. I had a longer delay than that on a new bike that had to be sent back for repair.
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Welcome to the forum I guess?
I bought the electric bike for many reasons, but gas, and the environment are the two of the bigger reasons. I guess I'm a dumbass?
I actually have 5 vehicles, 3 are bikes. I paid cash for this bike so I can surely afford it. I guess I just like to complain?
There are electronics in every vehicle. It's actually quite rare for an electronic failure, especially with only 3k miles.
Guess I'll go wait for Santa now.
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Waiting for Santa will be safer than jumping out the office window.
The motorcycle dealership experience seems like it can be frustrating depending on what you are used to. I think I only have taken wheels to a dearership to get mounted and balanced, and then the receipt reads it takes like 20 minutes and computed by the hourly rate. I have been to competitive events with loud mouthed self identified service managers boasting how their job is to figure out the most expensive way to bill out things. Riding lawn mower dealers and even real tractor dealers will come and get things for less $ by a lot than the formula used by towing as in state rate off the highway.
How about dealer prep, freight, documentation fee? Just to get you going I went to the Southwick motocross last year. Dealer there had a little booth, not ktm but the others $75 plus sales tax nothing else.
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Welcome to the forum I guess?
I bought the electric bike for many reasons, but gas, and the environment are the two of the bigger reasons. I guess I'm a dumbass?
I actually have 5 vehicles, 3 are bikes. I paid cash for this bike so I can surely afford it. I guess I just like to complain?
There are electronics in every vehicle. It's actually quite rare for an electronic failure, especially with only 3k miles.
Guess I'll go wait for Santa now.
[/quote
Don't fret about flattetyre. Typical of him.
Welcome to the forum. Sorry for the bad luck. I own a 2017 dsr. But other than one breakdown, it's been a great bike with 8000 miles so far. If it wasn't for this forum, I would be in same boat as you, but they gave me the info to fix it myself. Since the nearest dealer is 80 miles away, I would always come here first with my issues. Very smart people on here.
Good luck to you.
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Welcome to the forum I guess?
I bought the electric bike for many reasons, but gas, and the environment are the two of the bigger reasons. I guess I'm a dumbass?
I actually have 5 vehicles, 3 are bikes. I paid cash for this bike so I can surely afford it. I guess I just like to complain?
There are electronics in every vehicle. It's actually quite rare for an electronic failure, especially with only 3k miles.
Guess I'll go wait for Santa now.
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Don't fret about flattetyre. Typical of him.
Welcome to the forum. Sorry for the bad luck. I own a 2017 dsr. But other than one breakdown, it's been a great bike with 8000 miles so far. If it wasn't for this forum, I would be in same boat as you, but they gave me the info to fix it myself. Since the nearest dealer is 80 miles away, I would always come here first with my issues. Very smart people on here.
Good luck to you.
Thanks for the reply. Yes it's been great besides this malfunction and the fact I have no power driving under 45 degrees and 50% battery. :)
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So my 2017 DSR is dead.. just past 3k miles. Turned on and lights were just flashing at me. Called the dealer and they said it had to be towed in for service.. Warranty and dealer won't cover towing, no replacement vehicle.. After 2 weeks at the dealer they said it has to go back to Zero for servicing. Luckily I live close to Zero headquarters. Going on 4 weeks now and might be done by the end of the week.
1. I bought an electric bike so I can save on gas.. Had to us a gas vehicle the past 3+ weeks.
2. I bought an electric bike on the premise that there should be nothing to repair.. haha yeah right..
3. I'm paying for a vehicle I can't use.. depreciating every minute..
I really enjoy my Zero DSR for commuting, but it just seems the technology and service is not up to my standards. I have never had to wait a week for a repair let alone a month.
meark - Dude, I feel your pain.
Here are some random thoughts -
I’ve been there a number of times, often without an end in sight.
When I believed the repair should only take a week, the week quickly turned into a month. Once it turned into 6 months.
When the weather is good, I use my bike exclusively. When I’m without my bike, it costs me about $250 a month - bike insurance, fuel for the car, if needed, extra expense having to trailer the bike, just the sheer inconvenience of the whole event.
Because of numerous events, I’m considering an Energica. I never considered one until I ran into someone with one. An interesting discussion ensued. FWIW - Comparing the two, I feel Enerigca’s are vastly superior at a similar price point.
For fun, while you’re waiting for your DSR, compare specs and test ride an Energica or two (CalMoto in Mountain View).
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So my 2017 DSR is dead.. just past 3k miles. Turned on and lights were just flashing at me. Called the dealer and they said it had to be towed in for service.. Warranty and dealer won't cover towing, no replacement vehicle. After 2 weeks at the dealer they said it has to go back to Zero for servicing. Luckily I live close to Zero headquarters. Going on 4 weeks now and might be done by the end of the week.
Welcome to the forum--and welcome to the issues of trying to get decent service for an electric motorcycle. The stories are endless about the service. Here in Reno, I cannot even get a firmware update done (first update must be done at the dealer) since I have owned my two Zeros. No qualified people to do it. Fortunately, both of my Zeros are running fine at around 7,500 miles on each. So far, my only real problem was an open front wheel ABS sensor, which I troubleshoot and replaced myself--on my SR--while the bike was still in warranty!
On things I can repair myself without too much trouble and expense, I prefer to do the work myself. The ABS sensor cost me $50.00 from AF1 Racing. (https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=3103) And an hour or so of my labor. IMO, that is much better than bringing the bike to the shop and dealing with all the hassles.
I take it you're not far from Scott's Valley and the Santa Cruz area of CA. I assume you can get the very best service on a Zero there in CA. That doesn't say much for CA and says even less about Zero service in the other states. The name "Zero " probably means Zero service.
Nevertheless, I love my two Zeros. I ride them more often than my other seven ICE bikes combined.
Not many mechanics know how to work on these things and by the time Zero trains many of them, most go work somewhere else or whatever where they don't even work on Zeros. This has happened twice here in Reno since I have owned my own Zeros. Both since new in 2017.
Who is your Zero dealer out there and do they have any real Zero mechanics/techs? I am going to guess not, so they shipped the bike back to the factory.
-Don- Reno, NV
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1: Saving on gas is the dumbest reason to buy an ebike. You pay a gigantic premium that could have bought many many gallons.
That may be a stretch, but if you consider the fact gas prices aren't constant and are likely to start increasing due to climate related policies as
well as promised longevity of the electric bikes, one may be able to save on gas the amount equivalent to the purchase price of the ICE bike.
On top of that, I factor in my time spent going to and at the gas station.
If you're doing it to save the planet that's dumb too. Your own use of fossil fuels will be smaller than microscopic in a planet-wide context even if you REALLY stepped up your game and started filling up tankers or 747s or something.
That's a shortsighted comment too. One of the purposes for being an adopter of this technology is to promote it to other people. I haven't been successful (to my knowledge),
but others have. Collectively we can make a difference, but you have to play the lottery in order to win.
2: What, you thought electronics are invulnerable to damage? This is somewhere between believing you can fly if you take a running jump out your office window and expecting Santa Claus to come down your chimney.
Reliability of electronics is a product of proper design, quality of components and quality of assembly. Get those things right, and you will have an electronic product that is significantly more reliable than a similar mechanical system subjected to wear, mechanical stress and corrosion.
3: If you're worried about either being deprived of a vehicle or depreciation you bought a motorcycle you couldn't afford. That's because if you had any business spending beaucoup bucks on a DSR you can easily afford multiple alternative vehicles.
Now that's a fallacy. I have a car, and I have enough cash in the bank to buy ANY motorcycle. Doesn't mean I should buy one, considering I paid (like you said) premium for a Zero, which I prefer to any other vehicle at this time for a number of reasons.
Oh and all that aside, Zero's service does suck and is inexcusable. I had a longer delay than that on a new bike that had to be sent back for repair.
See, you are part of the club after all :)
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I think the OP is quite right in expecting a brand-new electronic device to be trouble free for a much longer period than this.
Of course, any device can break at any time but the chances of it happening should be less on a properly designed electronic device than on a mechanical one.
It goes without saying that Zero has a lot of room for improvement on the service side.
The only mitigating circumstance is how new the SR/Fs are. Hopefully, things will get better soon.
I went to my local dealer looking to buy a couple of parts that got scratched and was told they did not have access to the parts list for this bike yet.
An email to Zero was promptly addressed and they sent the parts to the dealer right away with overnight delivery. I picked them up less than 48 hours after my original trip to the dealer.
As I see it, training the mechanics at the dealership is one of the most important things Zero can do to improve service.
Having to ship a bike to the factory for service is outrageous: they should instead ship any possible parts needing replacement to the dealer and have them replace the whole component, for turnaround's sake.
If they were to provide a loaner to those individuals whose repairs would take longer than a "normal" turnaround time, then it wouldn't be so bad.
Hopefully, when competition ramps up they will have no choice but to improve service satisfaction but until then, it's a hit-and-miss thing.
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Welcome to the forum. Don't mind flat tire, he's just grumpy.
Hope they get your bike fixed to your satisfaction. As someone who just bought a 2019 DSR, this is certainly concerning news.
I really enjoy my Zero's, but when I read stuff like this, I wonder if I should sell them and get out before the headaches start.
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First, I second Jarrett. Some of the members of this forum are highly opinionated and very...vociferous...about said opinions. Doesn't make them wrong, necessarily, just highly irritating sometimes.
1. There isn't anything stupid about saving gas. It's unlikely you'll save enough DOLLARS to justify buying electric on a strictly economic basis, but "saving gas" goes beyond that. This world needs to get over its addiction to petrochemicals, and us early adopters are the tip of the spear.
2. There's no device in the world that has "nothing to repair". Occasionally you'll need to sharpen the shovel in your garage. Yes, "EV reliability" probably isn't fully realized on the available electric bikes, and that's annoying. We feel your pain.
3. Again, we feel your pain, some more than others. I live in San Diego, and my bike has been shipped up to Scotts Valley for extended periods twice (though the first time wasn't Zero's fault). It definitely sux, especially since these bikes are so much fun to ride, you want to ride them every day you can.
Every once in a while, you just have to close your eyes, count to ten, and remind yourself "it's still an early adopter market". Then you'll get your bike back and be reminded why it's all worth it.
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Regarding electrical component reliability: I grew up during the days of Joe Lucas, the Prince of Darkness. He always said never go out at night if you want to see what is in front of you. :o
But I will agree that most electrical things seem to have improved since then. ;)
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Yes, I live within 30 miles of Zero HQ. My local dealer is San Jose BMW. Zero is going to deliver to my house once it's done which is nice.
I really like my 2017 DSR. It's the best vehicle I've ever used for commuting. I've been riding for almost 40 years.
Like previously stated above.. it's not just the price of gas, it's the whole process of stopping to get gas too. Plus my employer has free rapid charging and the electric charging spots are in the best location in the parking garage. :)
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You fellows need a sense of humor.
I have a car, and I have enough cash in the bank to buy ANY motorcycle.
Many words to say nothing: the value of your car could reasonably vary by 3 orders of magnitude. Same with your bank balance. Looks like the record for most expensive bike sold is about to break 7 figures. Anyway, being able to pay cash for something doesn't mean you can afford it. What about your savings? I could have 7 figures in my retirement but be unable to afford a $15K zero if I'm not working and have no income, limited liquid assets and incur penalty withdrawing from something like a 401k.
Affordability is actually not a well understood concept.
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My local dealer is San Jose BMW.
I've been there many times (I used to live in San Mateo & Belmont and other places in the west bay area).
Does SJ BMW have a Zero mechanic at this time, or are they selling the bikes with nobody to service them, like here in Reno at this time?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Many words to say nothing: the value of your car could reasonably vary by 3 orders of magnitude. Same with your bank balance. Looks like the record for most expensive bike sold is about to break 7 figures. Anyway, being able to pay cash for something doesn't mean you can afford it. What about your savings? I could have 7 figures in my retirement but be unable to afford a $15K zero if I'm not working and have no income, limited liquid assets and incur penalty withdrawing from something like a 401k.
Affordability is actually not a well understood concept.
Savings, retirement accounts aren't cash. Cash is something you can spend tomorrow without implications other than the chance of wasting it :)
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Is it common to get loaner bikes from dealers when you bring one in for service? I figured the liability would be too great.
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Is it common to get loaner bikes from dealers when you bring one in for service? I figured the liability would be too great.
I am sure it is not common under normal conditions.
But if you just bought a bike and the dealer is unable to fix it within a few days, this is not "normal conditions".
An unreasonable delay should entitle the new owner some "special treatment" such as a loaner from the factory or dealer because after all, it is not his/her fault the factory & dealer don't have a reliable service program.
This is even more so when the failure is not caused by a crash or abuse to the new bike, like the one described by the OP.
I know this is just wishful thinking but it would be the right thing to do. We the customers are being penalized by a lack of working logistics and proper management that spans both, factory and dealer.
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Damn, flat tire sounds like he needs to get laid. What an asshole.
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Is it common to get loaner bikes from dealers when you bring one in for service? I figured the liability would be too great.
For the past 30 years, my BMW dealer has been offering their service customers loaner motorcycles while their bikes are being serviced. But they are loaned out for just one day and must be returned before the shop closes. My understanding is that the loaner bikes are owned and insured by the manufacturer, not the dealership.
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For the past 30 years, my BMW dealer has been offering their service customers loaner motorcycles while their bikes are being serviced. But they are loaned out for just one day and must be returned before the shop closes. My understanding is that the loaner bikes are owned and insured by the manufacturer, not the dealership.
It is very nice they do that! I wasn't aware such a perk existed in the motorcycle world.
I guess the volume of business allows BMW to do that (maybe only large dealerships have it?)
Anyways, in my mind, the real value would be when you bike is out for the long run. Getting a loaner just for the day is cool but not critical.
Wonder if Beemers suffer from extended maintenance due to lack of mechanics training or availability of parts.
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My previous BMW dealer had a couple of "beater bikes" that he figured were worth more as "loaners" than bothering trying to sell them. They were NOT provided by BMWNA, they were his bikes. He built a lot of goodwill that way. None of the dealers I work with now have "loaner bikes." Only my car dealer provides that service.
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I really enjoy my Zero DSR for commuting, but it just seems the technology and service is not up to my standards. I have never had to wait a week for a repair let alone a month.
meark, I think the basic point is that it needs to be understood that Zero is a very small company, not much larger than a startup (as far as is known, their sales volume is in the low four digits/year); that's ~ two orders of magnitude less than BMW, or a staggering five orders of magnitude less than Honda (who sell ~20M two-wheelers/year).
That means that Zero has very limited resources to handle service & customer support, support & train dealers etc., doesn't have regular procedures for a lot of stuff, and frequently getting things done depends on getting through to a specific person at Zero.
Anecdotally, from reading this and other electric motorcycle forums, it looks like ~10% of Zero customers have suffered an issue serious enough that their bikes spent multiple months at a dealer waiting to be fixed.
Not because the bikes are necessarily badly designed, but due to a mix of organizational, dealer training & supply chain issues.
Anyone considering a Zero needs to understand this, and I'd caution anyone who expects Big Four levels of service and/or relies on having an 95% uptime on their bike about this -- Zeros at this point are early-adopter machines.
These kind of issues aren't unique to electric bikes, either; as of 10-15 years ago, for example, the Ducati importer for North America didn't keep a stock of most replacement parts on hand in a US warehouse. Apart from standard wear & tear parts, many/most others had to be specifically ordered from Italy for each repair/service for each bike, which used to take 1-2 weeks for the parts alone. I know many owners who got burned by this. I hope that's no longer the case.
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Damn, flat tire sounds like he needs to get laid. What an asshole.
If that's what's on your mind maybe you need to lol.
Savings, retirement accounts aren't cash. Cash is something you can spend tomorrow without implications other than the chance of wasting it :)
That was the point. Having $100K (or whatever) in a bank account doesn't mean you can afford something that costs that much or less: it just means you can buy it. Ability to buy not equal to can afford. What about the rest of your life?
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Some wise folks have proposed that this is at least as much of a shop issue as a Zero manufacturing/quality issue.
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1. There isn't anything stupid about saving gas. It's unlikely you'll save enough DOLLARS to justify buying electric on a strictly economic basis, but "saving gas" goes beyond that. This world needs to get over its addiction to petrochemicals, and us early adopters are the tip of the spear.
Oh really? How many 'petrochemicals" were uses to mine the materials for production of your Zero's batteries, then to ship them by olluting cargo ship to China for assembly, then all parts shipped by polluting cargo ships fro China to California for final assembly, then again by 18 wheelers from California to your dealer?
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@dukecola
By that logic you make it sound like it's pointless to electrify even some of our transportation..
Just because we couldn't start with the biggest polluters, we have to start somewhere to be able to work up to the rest of it..
You can't convert all of society's transportation needs in one night, one month or one year.. it has to happen gradually and by starting where it's possible.
This level of argumenting is more pointless than the discussion it's based on and pisses me off..
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Oh really? How many 'petrochemicals" were uses to mine the materials for production of your Zero's batteries, then to ship them by olluting cargo ship to China for assembly, then all parts shipped by polluting cargo ships fro China to California for final assembly, then again by 18 wheelers from California to your dealer?
Some. Related studies have been done for passenger cars, and the numbers that come out of it while vary from source to source, roughly put energy requirements to produce an ICE car at about 250 gallons of gasoline equivalent, and BEVs at 400 or so. What is 250 gallons of gas for a car that gets 35MPG ? Well, you can count... Similarly you can do the math for BEV case.
Same argument is often used for photovoltaics. Those break even on energy consumed / produced at around 2 years. Given their estimated life expectancy of 20 years... they're quite good for the environment.
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Oh really? How many 'petrochemicals" were uses to mine the materials for production of your Zero's batteries, then to ship them by olluting cargo ship to China for assembly, then all parts shipped by polluting cargo ships fro China to California for final assembly, then again by 18 wheelers from California to your dealer?
I've actually wondered about this too, but the cost to create gasoline from oil also has an effect on the environment. An ICE bike would need that gas/oil. I would think the actual impact difference would be the DELTA between those numbers, not necessarily the raw amount of petrochemicals of bringing batteries to a Zero.
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I agree with MrBlc and valnar. This is one of the worst red herring arguments the haters give against BEVs. Paul Krugman would call it a "zombie argument"; no matter how many times it's killed, it keeps coming back.
Next we're going to hear the ole "EVs use coal as their fuel" argument trotted out again.
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One other thing to think about: Having 5 IC motorcycles and a 20-year old car, I can tell you that I go through a lot of motor oil every year. I do give it to our local recycling yard, but I have no idea what they actually do with the old (and nasty) motor oil. It is supposed to be recycled but the recycling (garbage) company never seems to say much about where that used oil finally ends up. ???
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One other thing to think about: Having 5 IC motorcycles and a 20-year old car, I can tell you that I go through a lot of motor oil every year. I do give it to our local recycling yard, but I have no idea what they actually do with the old (and nasty) motor oil. It is supposed to be recycled but the recycling (garbage) company never seems to say much about where that used oil finally ends up. ???
Wouldn't surprise me at all to find out they use it to make asphalt and road tar.
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It can't really be used to make asphalt. The molecular weight is far too low, which is why its viscosity is so much lower than asphalt.
From what I've read, it's easily cleaned up, re-fortified with new additives and put back in action as new crankcase oil, and it costs a lot less to do that than refine new from petroleum. (I hear it's better oil, too, since it's been further 'refined' by use in the motor.) They don't charge for disposal at those collection sites because they make money on the old oil.
The forms of recycling which actually turn a profit for the recycler I don't worry about too much.
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From molecular weights to service concerns, this thread has it all!
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It can't really be used to make asphalt. The molecular weight is far too low, which is why its viscosity is so much lower than asphalt.
So can't make fuel for ICBMs either ? Shucks!
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My local dealer is San Jose BMW.
I've been there many times (I used to live in San Mateo & Belmont and other places in the west bay area).
Does SJ BMW have a Zero mechanic at this time, or are they selling the bikes with nobody to service them, like here in Reno at this time?
-Don- Reno, NV
They fixed my melted headlight at SJ BMW. They attempted to fix but couldn't get past the BMS. They will do mechanical type work, think they leave the electrical/battery issues to Zero.
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Is it common to get loaner bikes from dealers when you bring one in for service? I figured the liability would be too great.
They said they have loaners for a day, but not extended service.
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Got my DSR back today. Exactly 4 weeks to the day. Nice of them to deliver to my house. Unfortunately they dropped it off with a flat tire??? Guess they don't have an air compressor at Zero HQ? lol
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This made me literally lol :)
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Got my DSR back today. Exactly 4 weeks to the day. Nice of them to deliver to my house.
Did they say what they found wrong with it?
-Don- (Honey Lake Rest Area, CA)