ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: benswing on May 20, 2015, 10:18:22 PM
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I just saw a post on facebook that Zero lowered their MSRP on all 2015 models! Checked their website and it is true!
A 2015 Zero S starts at $11,995 instead of $13,395.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/order.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/order.php)
Sweet!
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Yes my dealer emailed me earlier this morning and let me know about the price drop. This is now making it even harder to wait until 2016 to get my SR. I am excited though that they lowered the price since it does tend to turn a lot of people away.
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Nice! So much more bang for the buck compared to my 2013, let alone the 2012 models.
I believe the federal tax credit is 10% off the MSRP (or was it the purchase price?). In California, you get to throw another $900 rebate on top of that. Comes out to be under $10,000 for the cheapest Zero S.
For the ebike I built a couple years ago, I paid about $1 per watt-hour of battery. It's nice to see that for that price back then, I could today get an entire highway-legal bike with a comparable (if not better) battery. I'm very curious to see what influence the Gigafactory would do to prices even further. Tesla stated their 1kWh Powerwall battery is going to go for $3500 ($0.35 per watt-hour), and that comes in a much neater package too.
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That's actually very aggravating. I ordered my SR late last year (took delivery at the beginning of October) and paid MSRP. Now, for a grand less, I can get one with better tires, better suspension, a larger battery and ABS.
I don't regret buying the SR when I did and I still managed to rack up 1,000 miles on it before it got parked for the winter. However, this price drop is not going to help with the resale value.
Also, the federal tax credit for motorcycles expired at the beginning of 2014. It was good for 10% of the purchase price but since I purchased it after the cutoff, I wasn't eligible for the credit on my taxes. Here, in New York, there weren't any state rebates either.
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You want frustrating? I bought my 2015 FX on May 6th.
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Damn it. Get YOUR ASSES BACK INTO THE UK ZERO!!! ;)
If the motorbike rebate comes into force and applies to the Zero's, then that's £1500 + £1300 = £2800 off the bike, which is a no brainer.
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So the Ducati takeover rumors are true huh? Kidding, kidding...
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Yep - they don't call it "the bleeding edge" of technology for nothin'. :o
Funny, the first comment on my story was about all the guys saying "...if they just dropped the price a little more, I'd...". :D
http://insideevs.com/zero-motorcycles-slashes-msrp-by-1350-across-15-model-line/ (http://insideevs.com/zero-motorcycles-slashes-msrp-by-1350-across-15-model-line/)
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This price drop might also be a way of clearing out inventory and upping sales numbers before the new (and likely improved) 2016 models are announced. ;)
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Damn it. Get YOUR ASSES BACK INTO THE UK ZERO!!! ;)
If the motorbike rebate comes into force and applies to the Zero's, then that's £1500 + £1300 = £2800 off the bike, which is a no brainer.
Actually no, in Europe it looks like the price is remaining the same as the discount will be used to absorb the weakness of the euro against the dollar.
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I think this was very bad timing on Zero's part. Of course it will entice new customers but you really should be worrying about your repeat customers as well. It's very strange to drop the price in the middle of the model year. Not to mention this is going to hurt the resale value of almost every zero out there. Not that the resale values were going to be great to start with. It does stink that they are selling for $800 less than what I bought mine for 2 months ago but I worry how much they have upset every other recent zero purchaser. I think the smart move would have been to lower the price right before the 2016's came out, not less than halfway through the 2015 model year. I think zero needs to take a good hard look at how they are handling previous customers as far as price drops and support for older bikes. I think they are doing more harm than good. Remember, without the customers they have right now, zero would be no where. That's just my 2 cents.
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I guess this why I got an email from Zero today offering me a free quick charge accessory or a Zero jacket and gloves. LOL.
I really don't mind and that is a good gesture on their part. I knew that the technology is evolving and did not buy the bike thinking of resale value.
I have put almost 3000 miles on it with no problems whatsoever. Love the bike. Completely satisfied.
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I guess this why I got an email from Zero today offering me a free quick charge accessory or a Zero jacket and gloves. LOL.
I really don't mind and that is a good gesture on their part. I knew that the technology is evolving and did not buy the bike thinking of resale value.
I have put almost 3000 miles on it with no problems whatsoever. Love the bike. Completely satisfied.
Those things are like $600 so that's a pretty nice gift.
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So I checked pricing on an S with power tank, even with the price drop.........$22951.50 after taxes freight and PDI,Canadian$, and the waiting continues :o
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I guess this why I got an email from Zero today offering me a free quick charge accessory or a Zero jacket and gloves. LOL.
I really don't mind and that is a good gesture on their part. I knew that the technology is evolving and did not buy the bike thinking of resale value.
I have put almost 3000 miles on it with no problems whatsoever. Love the bike. Completely satisfied.
Seriously. That's exactly how you have to approach the purchase of any product like this. I've worked both sides of this in digital photography, selling and using $20K (and up) capture systems.
Does anybody really expect that the product isn't going to be completely obsolete within a few years? Buy what you want, for when you want it, and enjoy it. Most every manufacturer will make some attempt to smooth their buyer's feathers, but there's very little they can do. Some of the systems I used to work with would offer buy-back or aggressive trade-in programs to recent buyers, but even that was a percentage of the purchase price, and on systems where they could take the product in, swap out a few bits for the upgraded model (like CCDs and boards and stuff...).
I don't think this is irresponsible or wrong in the least. They need sales, they need market share, and they aren't going to wait until next season - almost a year away - to do what they can to get that.
Hell - I just spent the last few years spending thousands and building a few bikes, none of which I can sell in any form, really. Will I get any money back? Probably not. Did I have a blast and was it worth it? Ya think? :D
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Exactly,you hit the nail on the head Ted! If it's an investment you're looking for play the markets, if you want to ride,fork out the money and enjoy, looking at any self destructive machine that wears out as an investment is foolish! IMO
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There are rebates on current models of Kawasaki motorcycles among many others almost from the time the model is introduced. It's a way to boost sales. On the other hand 10% isn't a lot and well within the amount you can usually negotiate down from the asking price on expensive bikes. I hope nobody is just paying the msrp then adding on taxes and add-ons to arrive at a fair price for a new Zero. In the US at least it is understood you never pay sticker price for motorcycles or cars.
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I bought my SR from Carbon Negative shortly before they closed their doors. Since he didn't stock the SR and it had to be special ordered it was pay MSRP + tax or no Zero for me. I also had to pay the $500.00 freight charge to have it shipped from the factory to Brooklyn. Oh, and $5.00 for tire disposal fees.
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In the US at least it is understood you never pay sticker price for motorcycles or cars.
That's an overgeneralization. For niche vehicles in poorly-supplied markets, elasticity is not nearly that great. Many of us (myself included) were completely unable to dicker the price down from the MSRP; I did manage to get a new pair of gloves included, and half off a new helmet, but many people haven't even had that much luck.
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If by "elasticity" you mean margin, that's exactly right. In the early days I had several conversations with dealers for both Brammo and Zero, and there is very, very little margin - it's very much like the digital camera market in that respect. The dealer doesn't make money on the bike, or the camera, they make money on the accessories. It was common that we'd make more on selling a camera bag than the $6000 camera that went into it.
Considering they make much less on service than a gas bike, it's really astounding they can keep the doors open at all. I did a story that interviewed Harlan at Hollywood, and his biggest money-maker was this little Chinese scooter he sold to DUI offenders. He joked he felt like the AA of Hollywood... :D
(http://www.homepower.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_gallery_active/public/articles/images/bumblebee.jpg?itok=E9m50BZj)
Here's that story:
http://www.homepower.com/articles/vehicles/all-electric/personal-electric-vehicles (http://www.homepower.com/articles/vehicles/all-electric/personal-electric-vehicles)
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Well I didn't buy the bike as an investment and I knew before hand it was going to be rapidly changing technology. I assumed next years model would have improvements and may even be cheaper. And I also assumed if it was a big enough increase in range or power I would loose the money on my bike and upgrade. But this isn't a digital camera market or a flat screen TV market. The manufacturer should realize dropping the price so soon after that model year release was going to hurt those that just bought that bike. A sale would be totally different as it wouldn't affect the resale. They had to know they were going to drop these prices 6 months before this happened and I feel it is poor judgement on their part. As I said I knew I would loose resale value quick in this venture, but every single one of us making a $17k purchase hopes to retain as much of that resale value as possible. If you are ok throwing $17k to the wind then you have more money than brains. I am all for progressing EV's but it needs to be done fairly gradually. Drop the price $1000 each year, make improvements, and gain more customers, don't hurt the ones you do have.
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If you are ok throwing $17k to the wind then you have more money than brains. I am all for progressing EV's but it needs to be done fairly gradually. Drop the price $1000 each year, make improvements, and gain more customers, don't hurt the ones you do have.
In what way did you "throw $17k to the wind"? You bought a known commodity at a known price. If you don't like what you got for your money, who's to blame for that? Further, who are you to dictate the market? Zero doesn't have a lot of say in what fair market value is at any point in time, you certainly don't even have as much as they do. Virtually everybody else agrees prices are still to high on EVs, and most of us agree that they should bring the prices down as much as they can, as fast as they can. THAT'S how the market will grow, not walking on eggshells so they don't offend the sensibilities of recent persnickety buyers.
If you got the same deal everybody else got, i.e. a quick-charger, jacket and gloves, I think you should count yourself lucky. The rest of us paid more in 2014 and got nothing...other than the treat of having been riding our bikes longer! Some people are never satisfied, I guess.
And Ted, no, I meant elasticity. Margin and elasticity are two related but very different things.
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I got Zero's email offering the charger and leather jacket, or textile jacket and gloves yesterday.
I think it's a nice gesture - I'd prefer cash, but it's a very nice gesture.
Anyone wanna buy a charger - never used, and a jacket or a jacket and some gloves? ;)
Seriously, I think I'm gonna email and ask them what the 'cash' option is, if any. I don't have a need for the charger, and I have enough garments that I like. I'd need a 'tall', anyway, and they're not offering that. Maybe I'll get a small set that the kids could grow into and out of...
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Any price reduction is good, there have been lots of complaints if high cost compared d to ICE bikes. Australian price for 2015 SR is $26500 (2014 SR $25500)compared to USA price of $16000. I wish zero would keep prices equivalent in other countries.
The equivalent price should be $22000. Including currency exchange and taxes. Canada and Australia pricing should be similar. Australia still waiting for Zeros to be delivered.
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Well I didn't buy the bike as an investment and I knew before hand it was going to be rapidly changing technology. (snip) As I said I knew I would loose resale value quick in this venture (snip) If you are ok throwing $17k to the wind then you have more money than brains. I am all for progressing EV's but it needs to be done fairly gradually. Drop the price $1000 each year, make improvements, and gain more customers, don't hurt the ones you do have.
If you didn't buy the bike as an investment and you knew it would lose (not "loose") resale value then you shouldn't be upset. Zero management has the right and the obligation to themselves to run their business succesfully. I was happy to see the price drop as it should attract more buyers and help Zero's bottom line thus improving their chances of surviving as a company which is something we should all want. As far as throwing $17,000 to the wind that is a ridiculous statement. I got a very cool motorcycle for my money...it was a quality of life investment not a financial one. More money than brains? Well, my brains got me to a point in life where I can afford this bike without a thought or a care about resale value. I also think that Zero's offer of free equipment goes above and beyond and I have already written them a letter telling them so. They were under no obligation at all to do that...it's a classy move whether we need what they are offering or not.
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And Ted, no, I meant elasticity. Margin and elasticity are two related but very different things.
Not sure what you mean, then... I've never heard that term applied to a market, or pricing. Nevertheless, I think we're on the same page.
(edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_%28economics%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_%28economics%29) - still confused about how that applies to your comment, but no matter.)
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Dammit - thinking about this in the shower this morning :D
I'm guessing by "elasticity" in the economic sense, you're saying that the dealer isn't going to budge on the price because he knows that he can sell the bike for full MSRP to the next guy if you don't want to pay? (ref: If I lower the price of my product, how much more will I sell?")
Me and Economics? Not so much... :D
But yeah, I think there's that, but also there just isn't a lot of margin for the dealer to mess with. The guy I worked for in High School used to say he had to make 20% at the end of the day, and that meant selling some stuff at 200% an some at 5%. Just to give you an idea, the margins that were mentioned to me (back in 2010-11, mind you) were about 7% on a bike - a little more on a Zero, and less on a Brammo.
I can't remember what the deal is with Zero, but in the camera biz we had to buy our cameras outright, or lease them, even our demo units. I don't think that's how the automotive market works, quite, but not sure... At any rate, there's a cost for just keeping the bikes in the shop, which chips away at your margin by the day...
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How many times on this forum have we asked for lower prices. Now we got them and people are complaining?
Weird.
I understand the concern about resale, but personally I never thought there would be much of a resale market anyway. Just a fun product and I intend to get my money's worth riding it.
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I find it strange as well,I'm saving up for one(I never buy toys without having the money) and it seems to me we're missing the most important part of the price reduction, zero is offering free accessories to the people who bought this model year,a very rare thing to happen and one hell of a nice gesture,so I say good job zero!
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I wonder if 2016 model will be higher voltage ? they need to get rid of charger stock too?
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Not to hijack the thread with an economics discussion, but Ted, elasticity just means flexibility in a market. In this case, if the demand drops, how much will the price drop? In some markets, a drop in demand will result in a big drop in price (that's a highly elastic market), but in this as in some other markets, a drop in demand won't result in much price drop at all. That's because (as you said) there's no margin for the manufacturer already...which is how elasticity and margin are related. But they're not always related that way; there are actually markets with negative elasticity. If the price of potatoes, for instance, goes up, sales of potatoes actually goes up instead of down. That's because some people's food budgets are very tight, and the more potatoes cost, the less money there is left for more expensive items, forcing them to eat more of the cheapest food item....potatoes.
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I wonder if 2016 model will be higher voltage ? they need to get rid of charger stock too?
That's an interesting thought that would give a comprehensive explanation for the price drop and the free chargers. However, I thought Zero had a safety argument for keeping the voltage where it is.
In any case, the timing of this price drop seems peculiar. No doubt, whatever changes are up for 2016 are already established, but not yet disclosed. I could see having the price drop at the end of summer, towards the end of the "riding season", and a couple of months before the 2016 announcement. A price drop in May seems like a good reason to procrastinate committing to a new model year purchase. I'm thinking about buying a 2016, but this price drop timing makes me think I might as well wait until next June to buy rather than place an order in October.
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Ah, got it, thanks. ...and actually, I think it's right on point for the topic. I've always thought the economics if this market is as unique as the products themselves. Well, since Elon Musk started selling Teslas that is. ;)
...and Benswing? +1 ::)
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Maybe Zero needs to show a high sales volume to a potential buyer and cuts the price to achieve it.
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I wonder if 2016 model will be higher voltage ? they need to get rid of charger stock too?
That's an interesting thought that would give a comprehensive explanation for the price drop and the free chargers. However, I thought Zero had a safety argument for keeping the voltage where it is.
In any case, the timing of this price drop seems peculiar. No doubt, whatever changes are up for 2016 are already established, but not yet disclosed. I could see having the price drop at the end of summer, towards the end of the "riding season", and a couple of months before the 2016 announcement. A price drop in May seems like a good reason to procrastinate committing to a new model year purchase. I'm thinking about buying a 2016, but this price drop timing makes me think I might as well wait until next June to buy rather than place an order in October.
The rumour first came about because Sevcon now produce a ~150V motor controller. I was half expecting a voltage increase for 2016 or if not 2017 with the new grant being used to develop their own controller.
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hope that is true 150v will be a good solution to increase power
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There was a recent interview with a Zero engineer that trumpeted how great low voltage is, and even suggested other vehicle manufacturers might move toward 100V. I can't find it right now, but they seem pretty committed to staying where their voltage is for now.
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Almost two months ago, there was a post by josequinones in which he provided the link to an article in cycleworld.com, which was an interview with Abe Askenazi, the CTO of Zero Motorcycles. The post is titled "Abe Askenazi cto Zero electric motorcycles Cycle World interview" on: April 01, 2015.
In the article, Abe Askenazi surmised about voltage in Zero's electric motorcycles versus other electric vehicles, such as 'the car guys' and the Harley-Davidson Livewire:
Most powersports equipment is based around Field-Effect Transistor (FET) technology, which peaks around 130 volts. When you go to higher voltage, you have to go to Insulated-Gate Bipolar Transistor (IGBT) technology. The car guys are at 300-400 volts, which incidentally the Harley-Davidson Livewire is 300 volts. But at the level of power that a motorcycle makes, the difference is not that impactful. It’s also a safety issue: Our manufacturing is pretty high-end, but we don’t have automotive levels of safety, and we can’t guarantee that every dealership is going to have high-voltage safety systems in place. The standard for powersports and industrial equipment such as forklifts is 102 volts, which if you screw up will shock and hurt you, but isn’t fatal. If you get shocked with a 300-400-volt battery, you’re dead.
If one is interested in the whole article, I've copied and pasted it here again for ease of use:
http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/25/on-the-record-abe-askenazi-cto-zero-electric-motorcycles-cycle-world-interview/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/25/on-the-record-abe-askenazi-cto-zero-electric-motorcycles-cycle-world-interview/)
=>> Perhaps 150V is not a far stretch from the 102V potential currently applied in their line-up, in that an electric shock still just hurts instead of being fatal.
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oh GAWD he said "impactful".
:o
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An interesting article. It would be good to see these more frequently to understand the thinking in the company. The weatherproofing on the battery packs was also new to me.
Nice picture of the Harley.. I particularly like the wrap around rear mudguard. Practical so as to stop mud spattering on one's newly embroidered skull and crossbones, and stylish too. ;-)
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I'd give my left nut for that Livewire rear hugger, with the Florida "sunshine"
Man, the "Osbourne effect" is a right bitch here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect))
I guess it's because each new Zero model is such a **huge** improvement over the last one that people really don't want to get stuck with the old tech, much like the early computers - as opposed to ICE where next year's model will have a different sticker kit.
This is why Zero has to keep NSA-level secrecy on things.
Me, I knew I was going to go through early-adopter pain and there'd be no resale value at all. I plan to ride the tits off it for the next 7-10 years when Musk's gigafactory will have made a new battery cheap. The ABS was the deal-maker that finally let me drop the hammer. I have to have ABS on my daily rides.
The tech improvement *I* want (aside from a magic 500kWh battery-which ain't happening) is a Vetter full dustbin fairing. Battling the current barn door aerodynamics relegates my bike to "around town with highly-preplanned runs elsewhere"
Personally, I think Zero has leveled off, and the improvements will be far less. For example, the "new SR" was suspension & ABS, and just a larger battery - not that much of a change in the actual EV parts considering previous years.
My SWAG on next year's SR update will be a sportbike style fairing.
> this little Chinese scooter he sold to DUI offenders
That is AWESOME. I've always said "they HAVE to get to work and stuff, don't take their license away because that forces them to cheat since American public transportation is useless. Put 'em on a motorcycle. They'll learn to stop driving drunk (or whatever) or they'll be dead in a week. Problem solved either way."
> oh GAWD he said "impactful".
I asked Mr. Askenazi about charging at AIMEXPO. He sighed and in about 2 minutes gave me an incredible Ph.D level summary of it. Most of it went over my head but fortunately I'd already read enough that maybe 10% of it stuck. I wish I'd had a tape recorder.
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@mikeisted -- I like your description of needing to protect the colors...can't be having any road-grime mucking things up!! :)
@CrashCash -- sounds like one of the best experiences to be had at a motorcycle exposition. Wish I could chat with Abe, that would be quite an experience. :D
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I bought my 2014 Zero S demo bike with 2k miles in mid-April and they quoted me without the power tank, 11.2k out the door... when I arrived to pick it up, they had thrown in the power tank for free!
I thought it was a little too good to be true, thinking they threw in the power tank because maybe there was an issue with this particular bikes' range/batteries. Maybe there is... but I have gone 100 miles with 11% charge still left, so whatever, it's good enough for me. I can commute to work both ways for three days without charging, and I'm still above 20%.
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The Tesla uses round batteries and the Zero uses flat pouch cells. The change over to pouch cells was one of the reasons that Zero have managed to pack more power into a similar volume and hence I doubt they will revert to a 18650'configuration round cell as it wastes space which is at a premium on a bike but not as crucial in a car. I haven't seen a price drop from Farasis so I think that the price drop has to do with something other that passing on reduced costs.
I would venture to guess that some future round of funding or other target is tied to sales volume and by reducing prices the volume will go up to a level that reaches that target.
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...I doubt they will revert to a 18650'configuration round cell as it wastes space...
There's some truth to that, and the other down side is it takes a fair amount of time and energy to build a battery made up of literally thousands of small cells.
The upsides of it are the easy availability of 18650's, and unique to the Tesla is the ability to water-cool them easily. Part of Tesla's "secret sauce" is immersing their batteries in a water bath which keeps them from overheating during massive charge/discharge current events, or from getting excessively cold in extreme environments. It's one of the reasons the Tesla is one of few EVs that operates quite well in very cold places...it does lose some performance, but not nearly as much as most other EVs.
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Zero have cleverly ensured that the overheating is confined to the motor only so they seem to be ahead of Tesla on that one 😜
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You can overheat the battery on my 2013 Zero. Nothing indicates it is overheated, but if you try to charge, it won't until your battery cools off. Take a long time for that too...at least an hour with a fan on it. It never feels very hot, but it's well insulated. Inside I suspect it is well over the temp that allows charging. Some people have had this happen with the bike just sitting in the hot sun.
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You can overheat the battery on my 2013 Zero. Nothing indicates it is overheated, but if you try to charge, it won't until your battery cools off. Take a long time for that too...at least an hour with a fan on it. It never feels very hot, but it's well insulated. Inside I suspect it is well over the temp that allows charging. Some people have had this happen with the bike just sitting in the hot sun.
You can see batt temp on the app
That's my number 1 guage. Only one I even consider looking at sometimes motor temp
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I'm curious... Anyone seen the charger, coat, etc show up yet? I know they'd told me they expected shipments to be received by 7/3 which is this week but it's been over a month since that was mentioned. Wondering if they're staying on track with their estimate.
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Mine was waiting at the door when I got home today! Coat fits well and like the look.
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Mine was here too today. I would guess you will see yours very soon.
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I got my charger and jacket about a week ago. I'll be using both this weekend on the Hollilster run :-)
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+1 on the jacket - I was slightly miffed at the time as I already have plenty of leather gear but the Zero jacket is far superior to the Alpinestars leather I've had for a few years.
Needless to say the Alpinestars jacket will be going up for cheap on eBay soon - the Zero jacket is higher quality with a better fit on my medium frame.
Haven't had a chance to mess with the charger. I don't plan to use it on the bike but instead will snag a charger adapter and use it to charge one of my FX modules off-bike while I'm running the other one down in the dirt.
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Got my leather jacket and aux charger today!
Not sure I'll be using the charger (read "probably won't"), so, ... if anyone wants to buy one, PM me. I haven't decided to actually list it for sale, but, it'll probably be collecting dust for at least a little while.