ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: rollandelliott on October 22, 2011, 09:23:44 AM
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Is there a way to hook up a smaller zero dirtbike type battery to the 2010 DS to give it more range. Seems like I'm always about 5 or 6 miles short of what I need and have to stop to forage for an electricity outlet somewhere and drive back at 30mph or less if I want to get home with out the battery dying.
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or make your own battery? $3K for a battery seems a little bit too much.
I got my bike for $5K used. Going to zero's web site the motor and battery are $5k alone! LOL.
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or make your own battery? $3K for a battery seems a little bit too much.
I got my bike for $5K used. Going to zero's web site the motor and battery are $5k alone! LOL.
the battery price is down to the cells inside each one is $6.60 from molicel!
the cells alone for a zero x battery are $1100 and that is half the size
we wanted to maybe put a zero x battery on a rear carrier but to link it up would be a nightmare as everthing is hard wired unlike on the zero x
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One of the zero engineers removed the charger, moved the controller and put an X battery in that spot for racing.
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I also have a DS 2010 and need to extend range. Want did you find out? Best regards from Sweden. HÃ¥kan
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The 2010 DS has such a short mileage that it has severely limited what one can get for a used one. Therefore providing a bargain price for short distance commuters.
Hollywood Electrics sold one for $2K so that is what I'm selling mine for (I have a buyer now). Mine only has a few hundred miles on it and it's selling for less than what a battery is worth! :'( That's is the price of early adoption but it makes good deal for someone who can utilize the short range. My buyer commutes to his shop one way 17 miles on surface streets and he can plug it in all day for the ride home. I suggested that after he gets my bike that he put street tires back on it, to improve mileage, since he will only be riding pavement.
Trikester
BTW- I'll still see my first electric frequently because his shop is only one door away from my shop :)
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I made my own extra Battery for my DS 2011.
What is great is that the voltage of these Molicells LiMn in 14s string is the exact same range of charge and discharge as the common 16s LiFFePO4 ebike battery :)
If you have a bit of skill + patience and courage you can make your own.. .or buy one from Ping battery. it will cost you about 1$ per Wh range
the 16s 20Ah battery from ping is about 800$ shipped and should give you about 15-20 extra km range at 50% city and 50% highway.
The zero is about 60Wh per km in that type if run ( i measured mine with accurate measuring device)
Adding a LiFePO4 battery that can hold about 40-50A continuous and have a higher internal resistance than the stock zero mattery should not be overloaded and the stock battery will take most of the load on hard acceleration . that extra battery will just give about 20% of the total power and will add like between 1/4 to 1/3 energy.
My stock 2011 DS battery that is rated " 4.4kWh" or... 3.9kWh nominal is in fact 3.0kWh measured with the calibrated cycle analyst i installed on it.
If you want max info make a search on the Endless-sphere forum or this forum with the words zero and doctorbass. you should find alot of non published and real world technical informations i measured and tested ;)
Oh.. by the way even if you find the courage to mae your own extra battery, here is some inspiration for you 8):
Myne will have 100 km range ADDED. and should have a bit more range than the ZF6 2012 :P
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=47812&p=713926&hilit=zero+range#p713926 (http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=47812&p=713926&hilit=zero+range#p713926)
Doc
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Where have you placed extra battery pack(s) and charger?
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That new battery pack is right under the existing one so i removed the Big DeltaQ charger. I will replace that charger with a Meanwell RSP-2000-48 that is incredibly compact and can fit under the seat and cahrge more than twice faster. It's a power supply that can be arranged as a charger and charge up to 56VDC bit with a little mod it can go to the required 58.4V ;)
The 2kWh pack that is already finished will fit perfect under the actual battery and will not be lower than the lower part of the aluminum frame. The 2nd extra pack of 3kWh will be located under the first extra pack and will have more lenght.
But i'm hesitating since that third pack could also be a voltage extender to go from 58V to 84V and get the real full performance of the agni 95R, just like the TTXGP guys do for the team using a single motor.
The stock pack measured 60Ah so by adding 40Ah with the first extra pack, i will have 100Ah at 58V ( 52 nom) i could just add 7s LiFePO4 of 100Ah or 6s of LiMn bank from other zero battery pack i have..
Will decide. soon... I just want to keep the actual BMS and MBB system of the stock zero ds so i could have to add a 6s or 7s external BMS for the voltage booster pack. including a seperate charger.
Doc
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http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-V2.5-LiFePO4-Battery-Packs/Categories?gclid=CIzHie_JgL4CFaVQOgod9hAAog (http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-V2.5-LiFePO4-Battery-Packs/Categories?gclid=CIzHie_JgL4CFaVQOgod9hAAog)
so I have not been active on this forum for a long time, but I am curious, would you still recommend using the PING batteries above or would I be better off getting the Nissan Leaf batteries you mentioned in another thread to upgrade my DS2010 Motorcycle range?
I do not know a lot about batteries and you seem to know your stuff so any help is appreciated.
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The Ping battery are excellent for ebikes ( e-bicycle) but not for e-motorcycle.
They power they can output is 5-6 time lower and the BMS would blow or cut once you crank a bit the throttle.
The ping battery have generally a BMS that is capable of 40-60A max... not the 300-400A that our Zero require. Also the cells inside a rerated 2C to 3C max ( a 15Ah battery can output a current 2 to 3 time higher than the capacity number... ex 15Ah capacity battery is 30 to 45Amperes output. This is far from the 300-400A required by the Zero.
What i suggest is to buy some of these Nissan Leaf cell module and to replace all the molicells of your actual zero battery and to use these modules. You would need 7 modules at 110$ each to match the same voltage and cell in serie than the molicells. As well this will require you hours of diy and rebuild but this is the CHEAPEST way to save your 2011 and previous Zero at cheap price. from: http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=14&name=nissan-leaf-batteries&Itemid=605 (http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=14&name=nissan-leaf-batteries&Itemid=605)
The Nissan Leaf modules have the exact same lithium ion chemistry than the molicells so they are the perfect match/alternative.. but you will have to remove the actual molicell brick and connect these instead.
Also you can connect these modules in parallel to the actual molicell brick The BMS will not care about that. You will only get aloy more range.
The S and DS pack from the 2010 and 2011 are rated 70Ah but in fact these are more like 60Ah usable. The Nissan Leaf modules are 60Ah so you would double the range and get 120Ah for a cost of about 800$ for 7 modules.
Doc
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I just know the basics about batteries.
serial increases voltage
parallel increases amps
if you charge them too fast they heat up and blow up
some batteries in parallel will discharge to other batteries so you need some electronics to prevents that, not sure what, a diode?
I saw this video
Zero X motorcycle 2009 battery rebuild with new cells (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LQK71i_uKg#ws)
on youtube. I have never taken apart a zero motorcycle battery. but in my simple world I was thinking I could just buy those 7 Nissan Leaf batteries and take a big copper wire or strip of copper and screw it to the positive terminals, do the same for negative terminal and connect the positive and negative to bike. Sounds easy, make an hour or two of work, what am I missing. Do i need an electronics degree to hook up a new battery?
Why will it take hours? Maybe I need to hire someone to rig them up, do you do this or know of anyone that does?
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The Ping battery are excellent for ebikes ( e-bicycle) but not for e-motorcycle.
They power they can output is 5-6 time lower and the BMS would blow or cut once you crank a bit the throttle.
The ping battery have generally a BMS that is capable of 40-60A max... not the 300-400A that our Zero require. Also the cells inside a rerated 2C to 3C max ( a 15Ah battery can output a current 2 to 3 time higher than the capacity number... ex 15Ah capacity battery is 30 to 45Amperes output. This is far from the 300-400A required by the Zero.
What i suggest is to buy some of these Nissan Leaf cell module and to replace all the molicells of your actual zero battery and to use these modules. You would need 7 modules at 110$ each to match the same voltage and cell in serie than the molicells. As well this will require you hours of diy and rebuild but this is the CHEAPEST way to save your 2011 and previous Zero at cheap price. from: http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=14&name=nissan-leaf-batteries&Itemid=605 (http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=14&name=nissan-leaf-batteries&Itemid=605)
The Nissan Leaf modules have the exact same lithium ion chemistry than the molicells so they are the perfect match/alternative.. but you will have to remove the actual molicell brick and connect these instead.
Also you can connect these modules in parallel to the actual molicell brick The BMS will not care about that. You will only get aloy more range.
The S and DS pack from the 2010 and 2011 are rated 70Ah but in fact these are more like 60Ah usable. The Nissan Leaf modules are 60Ah so you would double the range and get 120Ah for a cost of about 800$ for 7 modules.
Doc
Just making sure I understand this correctly. Will this work for the 2011 Zero X?
To upgrade to the Nissan Leaf cells all I would do is, remove the molicells from the battery pack and simply replace them with the Leafs cells? What does this do with range? Will it increase?
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no it 's not that simple
watch the video i posted above.
see that speghetti mess of wires? the indiviudal cells are split up into groups and each group probably goes to a unique harness, you need to know at least basic electronics to reverse engineer the battery system.
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7 LEAF modules is 3.2 kWh .. so range would probably double.
Weight would also increase - the 7 modules without an enclosure weigh about 60 pounds, the stock Zero X battery weighs somewhere around 40.
Alternatively, you could break down the modules to cells and build one or two modules at 14s1p configuration. Each module would be 1.6 kWh, similar weight and similar capacity/range to the stock cells. Durability would be far better, but absolute power would be down. Each 14s1p module can supply around 6 kW continuous, 11 kW peak .. so you would need two modules for full power.
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You mean that if you added the 7 leaf batteries to the stock battery range would double right?
Is there some kind of book or web site that will educate me on best battery layouts, like series and parallel and also battery management systems and chargers?
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The 7 LEAF modules have double the capacity of the stock X battery. If you install them as a parallel string then range would (roughly) triple.
Take a look at http://batteryuniversity.com (http://batteryuniversity.com), http://elmoto.net (http://elmoto.net), and http://endless-sphere.com/forums/ (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/) for more reading material..
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But I'm not talking about a zero "x" motorcycle. that was just a video I posted as an example.
the "x" battery is half the capaicty of a 2010ds
I am tallking about a zero ds 2010 which has a 60amh battery at 48v which is the same as 7 leaf batteries that are 60amh each (7 packs in series x 7.2 volts each) gives about 48 volts.
you can fit about 11 of these leaf batteries into the exsisting space the zero battery room takes up. If you removed the charger below, you could probably fit another 3 for a total of fourteen giving you 120amh and thus doubling the range.
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I am looking at converting my 2011 S to Nissan Leaf modules. Looks like you could fit 7 modules in the original Zero battery box, as seen in this post here http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4498.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4498.0)
From my rough calcs I think you could possibly even fit 8 in the stock Zero battery box. If you remove the delta charger and make a custom battery box then you could fit 11 modules. You could then fit 3 on top under a custom made 'tank' to make up a 14 Leaf module battery, which should get you a range of over 100km.
If you have a big enough 'tank' then you could fit 4 modules up top and then 10 in the battery box, giving room in the box for an onboard charger from Meanwell RSP power supplies.