ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: manlytom on September 04, 2012, 10:11:17 AM
-
Seems ColoPaul and myself had recently a glitch with our 2011 models.
the bike seemed to have lost all power and the motor just growling when trying to go. the first few occasions a reset (key on/off) got me going again. Found overall the motor working somewhat harder and using a bit more battery. In fact 3 months ago after a couple of growls it seemed to have fixed itself !?
Here a youtube with the "growl" and some whistling of the brushes:
2011 Agni motor sound (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOqyUDOyWoc#)
As it is the 2011 with the brushed Agni motor I suspect some issues with the brushes or something loose or dirt in the motor. A couple of occasions I got "Contactor warning" error blinking as per manual.
Contacted Zero and they said they will send a replacement motor. Sadly motor is out of stock and not readily available. And its 10,000 miles to here...
As my local ICE dealer has lost all Zero experts and is not interested into Zero's anyway we are taking it into our own hands! As motor is still some time away I decided to practice getting the motor out and in. In the 2010 one could go from the front by removing fairings and sliding controller/ charger forward. A lot of items to disassemble. Did that anyway as I wanted to clean up, check all connections etc. Took quite some time to realize motor does not go out that way, 2011 battery case seems a bit larger or so. Then go from the back as Zero service recommended (thanks heaps). So jack up bike, take out rear shock, and rear fan cover, lift rear tyre all the way up. Now the gap is just enough to wiggle the motor out in a turning motion. Thanks to the "bluerider" with his Zero 2010DS for giving a hand on getting that out.
Motor is now out ! As new motor is not here yet or not even an ETA announced lets open the motor. I located the Agni workshop manual and read it to understand all bits and pieces. Plus the guys from PicoAmps in Germany gave me some great guidance.
Edit:
pictures show brush holder taken out. overall brushes looked OK, cleaned them up. Measured them and found they are within 2mm of same length. Ensured that brushes travel freely and springs etc are OK and clean.
-
here a further pic with the brush holder on the motor. The wide marker indicates the standard position for the brushes. Found that the brush holder and area is the one that gets the cooling from the fan in the bike. Compared to some of the enhancements that PicAmps has made to the cooling areas of some motors the amount of copper brush holder seems small and hence low heat dissipation. Guess I keep that in mind if we get into performance tuning or I run into heat issues at all.
Man, its fun to be working on the guts of the bike ! :)
-
2 weeks on and as the new motor had still no ETA I figured that I clean up the existing motor, tighten screws etc. and practice putting that back in. Didn't take to long now after I had some experience.
Once all together at a weeknight, late evening tried to run the bike on the paddock stand - error, nothing coming on. Worried. But found a small 4 pin connector into the controller might not connect properly - to late that night to fiddle... got up earlier next morning and plugged it in properly - all worked. motor turned. Could not ride it as still a lot of pieces to put back on...
so last weekend it game altogether, motor seems to be running fine. A bit noisy, just like on the video - likely the brushes finding the "new grind". Will do some rides around the area and report back.
Edit:
found as well info on the Agni motor from the Voltron team at the Australian TTxGP 2011. they crash, damage the brush holder, take it apart, fix it and at 7:00 show an overheated Agni motor with melted brushes - luckily my one did not look like that ! Guess they could have done with more motor cooling somehow.
eFXC | TTXGP Electric Motorcycle Championship Australia 2011 - Round 3 - Wakefield Park (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3IlSLAD9iI#ws)
-
manlytom, I have also a DS 2011.
Did you tried the motor on an external power supply to see how it spin let say at 12V ?
My guess is that this famous glitch might not be due to the motor itself but more due to the MMB ( Mani Bike Board)
In fact the throttle signal is not directly sent to the controller as our normal EV conversion are. It is sent from the throttle grip ( the magura signal) to the MMB and then to the controller.
and i think it could be that MMB that cut the throttle signal from the magura grip to the controller.
I installed a relay that bypass that MMB and instead it take the signal from the magura and send it DIRECTLY to the controller. i guess if the glitch is from the MMB, this would eliminate it, ( just trying) because the MMB is a big safety including low batt detection and will affect the throttle signal depending on all possible alarm detection so bypassing it is only at your own risk.
I wanted to bypass it to let the full current from a dead start to get the great acceleration.. but i know also that it will reduc ethe life of the motor.
Something you could test is the no load current at different voltage, this will give a big idea on the state of the agni motor.
Doc
-
Hi Manlytom,
I'm having a similiar problem with my 2010 DS right now. I overheated it while going up a street called Joaquin Miller Road in Oakland, California which is a mile long steep up hill road with no stops. Some regular cars race past me and I know they burned at least a gallon of gas (petrol 8)) getting up there. There's a beautiful view of the Bay Area once you get there. I was taking this way home a lot but this day we were having a heat wave and I got half way up the hill and the MMB board cut power and flashed my warning light. I was happy the MMB board was doing its job but I could still smell an electrical burning smell at the motor. I let the motor cool for a good 20 minutes and went home without any problems. After that I took it easy but could occasionally smell that burning smell so I knew something wasn't right so I drove it easy.
Then a week later about 4 blocks from work everything stopped. The motor tried to go but all I got was a clunking sound from the motor. So I walked it back to work and trucked the bike home. These bikes are great for pushing down a sidewalk and are nearly as easy as a pushing a regular bicycle! ;D At home I took the motor out and found two of the brush holders melted away on the plastic brush plate and also a couple of broken brushes. You're right, these bikes are great to work on. I love the CNC work they did on some of the frame parts.
My problem appeared to be the MMB board didn't act soon enough in cutting the motor before the brushes got hot but I can see how it could happen. The thermister/temp sensor is glued to the outside of the plastic brush plate and the plastic itself was acting as a heat insullator until it was too late, not sending the actual temp to the MMB board soon enough. I think when I put the motor back together I'll add a thermister with some kind of temp readout at the handlebars so I can see when things get warm.
This could happen to other 2010 and 2011 bikes with the Agni motor so be careful. The motor may be getting too warm before the temp sensor can see it. So far Zero has been very helpful. Right now I'm working on getting it going again.
-
manlytom, I have also a DS 2011.
Did you tried the motor on an external power supply to see how it spin let say at 12V ?
My guess is that this famous glitch might not be due to the motor itself but more due to the MMB ( Mani Bike Board)
In fact the throttle signal is not directly sent to the controller as our normal EV conversion are. It is sent from the throttle grip ( the magura signal) to the MMB and then to the controller.
and i think it could be that MMB that cut the throttle signal from the magura grip to the controller.
I installed a relay that bypass that MMB and instead it take the signal from the magura and send it DIRECTLY to the controller. i guess if the glitch is from the MMB, this would eliminate it, ( just trying) because the MMB is a big safety including low batt detection and will affect the throttle signal depending on all possible alarm detection so bypassing it is only at your own risk.
I wanted to bypass it to let the full current from a dead start to get the great acceleration.. but i know also that it will reduc ethe life of the motor.
Something you could test is the no load current at different voltage, this will give a big idea on the state of the agni motor.
Doc
Hi doc,
thanks for the ideas. I pulled the motor out, cleaned it, tightened the screws and then put it back in. Bike on stand motor works well. Bike on road and was running fine for a couple of days. And I rode it hard to test if anything is still loose or does make problems.
Then last night working very late and looking forward to ride without traffic -- I hopped on, tried to accelarate while still pushing it a little backwards and there it was again. Motor growling at me, bike not moving :(. I did a key on/off a couple of time and no success, then pushed it around the car park, 10 metres or so wanting to hear if there is any grinding or so - nothing, then turned throttle and she run. Rode it home hard as empty roads - no PROBLEMS ! And this morning, hopped on, no problems either ;D !
HOWEVER, then about to ride out again to a meeting to demo the bike to some people being very interested -- she growls again >:(. Some fiddling with key on/off and pushing along fixed it and I went to the meeting and demonstrated her successfully - no growling :-*
So what is that temper all about ???
you mention to measure the "no load current at different voltages, I will check your threads as I vaguely recall you posted installing a shunt or so to do this.
I swapped the throttle assembly already as potential cause, Zero reckons it is the motor.
-
My 2011 S with 3500 miles quit on Mon. and AF1 picked it up yesterday (Tue). I had just started out with a nearly full charge...all bars showing after lunch just a mile from home. 30 sec. into the return trip there was a hesitation, then the motor caught again, followed by a second hesitation and no throttle response. As the bike was coming to a stop I could hear the motor groan just like in the video. No smell, or smoke, just no response at all from the throttle. I tried rebooting and the display worked fine too, but there was no movement or sound from the motor.
-
Tom,
The issue you describe with the motor growling is a typical symptom of a burned up contactor from my experience. Although, the contactor is a very inexpensive, readily available part, unfortunately, it is in one of the least accessible parts of the bike. You'll need to remove the battery and then remove the back panel to locate the contactor. You can then wrestle the old one out and replace it with a new one along with the aid of plenty of electrical tape to cover loose connections and prevent plasma events.
-
My bike is still under warranty, so I will let the mechanics at AF1 fix it. This may be their first Zero problem, so I'll also e-mail your post to Ed at AF1 to let him know the likely cause for my issue too. Thanks for that info, Harlan.
-
After removing the contactor, you can verify the problem by popping it open. Attached is an example of a burned up contactor I have removed from a Zero. As you can see, arcing has damaged the surface of the contacts and prevents it from closing properly.
-
Harlan, since this topic is about a glitch on a 2011 I'm assuming that is the new contactor not the original underrated one like you replaced in my 2010. Am I correct? This one is the better quality contactor that ZERO changed to early on in the 2010 production?
-
Tom,
The issue you describe with the motor growling is a typical symptom of a burned up contactor from my experience. Although, the contactor is a very inexpensive, readily available part, unfortunately, it is in one of the least accessible parts of the bike. You'll need to remove the battery and then remove the back panel to locate the contactor. You can then wrestle the old one out and replace it with a new one along with the aid of plenty of electrical tape to cover loose connections and prevent plasma events.
Hi Harlan,
thanks for the feedback. Keep getting the problem even after cleaned motor... so, yes likely another cause and probably to the one you indicate.
For that I guess need to put the bike on a plane or boat to your workshop or give it a go myself :)
Will contact Zero why they reckon it's the motor ....
does Zero have some vids advising how to go after it ? (OK I asked them now).
as for type of contactor, think DrBass has recommended an alternative better, yet wont get that on warranty...
-
I traded my 2011 S in for a new 2012 Vespa GTS Super today, so I'm no longer a Zero owner. I'll pop in on the forum off and on to see what's new and may even buy another Zero in January when the 2013s come out, or possibly a 2012 demo. Good luck. Just when you thought your motorcycle was highway capable, they go and do this:
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/texas-to-open-fastest-us-highway-with-85-mph-limit.html (http://autos.yahoo.com/news/texas-to-open-fastest-us-highway-with-85-mph-limit.html)
So if the speed limit is 85mph, that means you should be able to go 90 without any problem and 90 is an indicated 95 on a motorcycle. Think the Brammo Empulse R could make it the 41 miles at an indicated 95 mph?
-
Wow dkw - this altogether another type of riding. I like to look at Vespas but riding them I cannot imagine really. Would like to get a mid size supermoto or so.
anyway, working away on getting the Zero tuned and glitch identified. Have responses from motor problem, Contactor faulty to ball bearings. but she runs most of the time and so I am happy.
-
Vespa is twist and go, just like the Zero although the transmission is a CVT, and the rear brake is on the left handlebar instead of using your right foot. The thing I like most about scooters is the built-in STORAGE. I take stuff with me...phone, glasses, pens, pencils, newspapers, soda, gear. The storage is big enough to store and lock your full face helmet under the seat. Perfect for a light shopping trip too. A lot of scooter riders also have motorcycles it turns out. The GTS300 Super goes 80+ mph so makes a good commuter too. I've owned a lot of scooters..50cc, 100cc, 125cc, 150cc, 250cc, and 300cc, so I guess you could say I like scooters....almost as well as motorcycles.
AF1 Racing already has the parts ordered to fix the Zero I had that glitched, but I never keep bikes very long and was looking for something new anyway and the glitch was a good excuse to trade.
-
So if the speed limit is 85mph, that means you should be able to go 90 without any problem and 90 is an indicated 95 on a motorcycle. Think the Brammo Empulse R could make it the 41 miles at an indicated 95 mph?
Actual 90 mph on the Empulse R is probably around 240 Wh/mile, so about 39 miles range.
-
Thought i give some more observational evidence (as the doctors would put it). I seem to be getting the motor growl only when i start the bike and ride off under heavier load. Ie if parked against a slopping down kerb the motor needs to work harder than on the flat.
No growl though when ridning, going uphills or even stop/start on an uphill- like a traffic light!
So any guesses or what else we can go after to identify that.
-
My 2012 S always growls when taking off from an uphill stop and then quiets down around 10 mph. It really struggles, even when in "sport" mode under a static load. I think that is just normal. When coming to a stop sign on a hill, I tend to look around quickly and perform a "California stop", if I think I can get away with it, to make it easier on the motor.
-
hi Richard - thx.
my growl is though that she wont run anymore - at all. just growling as if angry about something :) Only after some convincing and key on/offs she goes again.
sounds like the motor not catching properly - or so - hence suspicion of loose shaft or misaligned something in the motor which in these particular circumstances causes the problem.
-
My 2012 S always growls when taking off from an uphill stop and then quiets down around 10 mph. It really struggles, even when in "sport" mode under a static load. I think that is just normal. When coming to a stop sign on a hill, I tend to look around quickly and perform a "California stop", if I think I can get away with it, to make it easier on the motor.
If I sit on my 2012 Zero S in my enclosed sunroom ;D (try that with an ICE bike!) where it's quiet, if I so much as push the bike an inch forward or backward when it's turned on it makes a kind of growling sound. I have always thought this is the coasting regen kicking in.
I recorded the sound and uploaded it to this site.
http://www.filedropper.com/zerocoastingregenengagesound (http://www.filedropper.com/zerocoastingregenengagesound)
Is this the growling sound everyone is talking about?
I bet the "glitch" is related to the regen.
-
Hi ZeroSINMA
- I am on a 2011 with the brushed Agni motor. Have never heard a 2012 :( so far as none exists over here (yet)
-
It's the contactor
-
AC motors have a limitation to supply a high starting torque when subjected to heavy loads -in stationary position- vs regular brushed DC motors.
Restricting the current does not help a lot...
Brushed motors should not face this problem "conceptually"
-
I guess any motor has high initial current and when under more load more currrent. Hence the contactor arcing and playing up. Have conceded to go after the contactor once Zero confirms and sends a replacement.
As for Agni in the 2011. It is a brushed DC motor.
-
Glitch-free at last, glitch-free at last, thank God Almighty, I am glitch-free at last. Anyway, I just traded my 2011 Zero S, for a 2012 Vespa 300 Super, so no more range and glitch anxieties. One other thing AF1 noticed right away was a problem with the front steering bearings on the Zero, so that might be something to watch for too.
I'll continue to follow electric bikes and may even buy another if the price is right in a few months and the glitches get worked out, but since I am now officially without a Zero, I'll bid y'all adios, good luck and safe riding.
-
Ride safely.
-
Good luck with the Vespa. I never drove one but they look like fun.
-
My first motor vehicle was a 1952 Vespa 125. While I did appreciate no longer having to pedal a bicycle, that Vespa was a real scary machine. Its handling was so quick that I would get pushed into the adjacent lane when being hit with a wind gust while riding over the Golden Gate Bridge. The suspension had no damping and most Japanese 50cc motorcycles had better performance. Every 50 miles the scooter would cease running and I would have to grab a business card and use it to wipe oil off of the ignition points. I bought the scooter new and paid $325 for it. After riding it 8000 miles in a year, I bought a much better 1963 Lambretta 150 Li. However, the new Vespas are much better vehicles. I test rode a Vespa 150 at my BMW dealer (who also sells these scooters) and it was smooth, handled reasonably well, seemed very refined and had a top speed of 60 mph.
-
Help-Need to replace the motor in my 2011-S and need to do it myself. Any recommendations on a bike stand or other way to stabilize the bike during dis-assembly and re-assembly?
-
i've used the type below for dirt bikes for quite a number of years and it still works fine. use tie-down straps with it, though, for safety.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=motorcycle+lift&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1LENP_enUS499US499&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&biw=888&bih=618&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13506131015511535957&sa=X&ei=rHRXUMXnLYfnqgGu1YD4Dw&ved=0CIwBEPMCMAY (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=motorcycle+lift&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1LENP_enUS499US499&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&biw=888&bih=618&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13506131015511535957&sa=X&ei=rHRXUMXnLYfnqgGu1YD4Dw&ved=0CIwBEPMCMAY)
-
Daveruns, will you be removing the motor out the bottom or out the rear? If out the bottom, you're better off using a swingarm stand and securing the front. If out the rear, a lift like dahlheim recommends.
-
Hi important you need to lift up the middle section of the bike. Then take the rear shock off and lift rear tyre as high as possible out of the way. As well to make it relatively easy the bottom plate underneath the motor. Once motor is all loose, fan tube removed, power disconnected, speed sensor and temp sensor disconnected you get it out in a rolling/turning motion. A bit fidelly but can be done. Good luck.
PS. Used a paddock stand and as well two milk crates to lift the middle. Then secure it or someone holding it.
-
Thanks for the advice as I would have been up a creek with out it. I had to remove the motor and replace it three times due to issues with the replacement motor. But in the end with the correct motor, all worked out well. A couple of things that I discovered that weren't obvious. You need to remove the plastic shield on the back side of the motor (power connection side) before trying to remove the motor as otherwise there is not enough space. If you are also replacing the housing that secures the motor to the frame, it can be installed in four axis, but only one works. The one that works is the one that orients the positive terminal (the one with with the red dot) directly above the negative terminal and also has the indention for speedometer housing towards the front of the bike. Zero tends to ship the motors with the housing installed, but there are at least two different housing brackets and if you don't have the right one, you can't install the speedometer housing. Check this before you install the motor as it might save you a few hours work. Also, I recommend checking the motor temperature sensor on the new motor by simply plugging the sensor wire from the bike into the connector on the new motor before you begin. If you have a bad sensor and you don't test, you probably won't find out until you are done replacing the motor and ready for a test run, then you will need to get a new motor and start all over again.
On the third try, I was able to disassemble, replace, reassemble and test drive in three hours. I'm sure that next time, I will be able to do it in two hours.
-
Thx for sharing, guess ur an expert on motor swaps now!
AbOut testing the temp sensor - unjust connect it and power up the bike ? Keeping the old motor otherwise connected?
-
Yes, I discovered this after trying a new motor with a defective sensor. First I messed with all the connections and it would not complete the start up process. You get the triangle blink-pause-blink-blink-blink message. Look that up in the trouble shooting guide in the back of the manual and it says, temperature sensor failure. SO then I just pulled the temp sensor connector and connected it to the old motor next to the bike and tried again. This time everything worked. So this a great test and it takes only a second. Zero sent me another new motor, and I tested this first before I did anything else. It worked, so I proceeded and no problems.