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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: PVNRG on August 25, 2020, 05:11:47 AM
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Turned on the key switch today and a second later the dash and everything went dark. Took off the battery case plugs and there are no lights lit. Anyone have any advise?
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OK, so I tried the BMS reset. Software button press for a few seconds and release did nothing. Hardware reset press for a few seconds and release, and now..., the light #4 is now blinking green showing "Healthy", hurray!!
Turns out the 3.15A fuse is blown. Anyone have any idea why this would happen? I'm going to get another one (or few) but usually if a fuse blows it is because something was pulling too much current.
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Also, I'm having trouble finding the 3.15A fuse part number. Does anyone have it handy?
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Silly me, it is written on the fuse of course. T3.15AH
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This is what you need:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D311HXB/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_MxVoFbEGSDB5Y
Good luck.
Tom
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Thanks!!
Has anyone had to replace this fuse before? If so, what was causing it to blow?
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Got the new fuse, put it in and heard something. Pulled fuse back out and it is blown. Now what? First guess is perhaps the contactor contacts are welded together? Maybe the DC/DC converter fried? Hmm. Has anyone had that 3.15A fuse blow?
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Just checked voltage on the DC terminals of the motor controller and there is no voltage, so it seems that the contactor is not welded shut.
All BMS lights are dark again.
Hmmm
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This failure can be caused by a defective DCDC. It can blow the low power b+ and damage the mbb and bms. I'd disconnect the DCDC, replace the fuse, and see if your bike comes back online without the dash backlight/lights.
Otherwise, you're probably looking at an expensive repair bill
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I pulled out the 3.1A fuse on the battery, the 4A fuse for MBB, the 1A fuse for I don't know what, and all the 12V fuses. Removed the DC/DC converter connector from it. Now the 3.1A fuse holds with both the 4A MBB fuse and the 1A fuse installed. Battery 4th LED blinking normally. Seems like the DC/DC may have fried or maybe the MBB. There is battery voltage on the DC/DC converter connector as measured when unplugged. Looks like a bear to get the DC/DC converter out. I installed the 2.5kW charge tank back in 2016 so that is in the way too. Next I think I will plug the DC/DC converter back in and test for 12V at the fuse block.
Interesting that the 1.3kW charger fried a couple of week ago and now these other problems have happened. Hopefully the MBB is OK!!
Let me know if you have any more ideas on this.
Thanks!!
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I tested the DC/DC converter. Removed the MBB connectors. Jumpered the B+ and Enable on the DC/DC converter. Inserted the 3.1A fuse and it blew immediately. All signs point to DC/DC converter failure. I guess the next test would be to hook it up to an external power supply for final 100% confirmation that it is fried.
Will the MBB communicate via UART without power from the DC/DC converter? I sure hope it can't because I can't connect to it now with everything back to normal except for having the DC/DC converter disconnected. Help please?? Thanks
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With the dc/dc converter disconnected, if everything else is ok, the bike should run, you just won't have the dash, lights, horn, turn signals, basically anything that needs the 12V, but, again, the bike should run.
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BTW, you should mention the year and the model.
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Thanks TEV. I assumed that my signature would give the information. DSR 2016
Thanks!!
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That's correct. The MBB should be functional even with the DCDC removed. It could still be the MBB or the BMS or both. The BMS's power supply circuitry can be damaged without showing on the lights, and the MBB could be dead as well.
Next I'd disconnect the 34 way MBB connector from the MBB and see if I could measure pack voltage on pin 18 and 7 with the key on. If you cannot,, then the BMS is toast. And the MBB could be too. Note the fuse needs to be plugged in and not blown.
Looking directly at the connector, pins 1-17 are the top row and 18-34 are the bottom. Be very careful not to damage pins measuring it with blunt multi meter probes.
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Thanks TEV. I assumed that my signature would give the information. DSR 2016
Thanks!!
You're right, my bad.
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I measured voltage between pins 7 and 18 and it was zero. I then checked the 4A MBB fuse and it was blown. There is good battery voltage at the DC/DC converter connector. With only that plugged in, inserting a 3.1A fuse in the battery immediately blows it. Seems to be multiple issues.
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OK,
Are you saying you that you measured the pins with the dcdc connector plugged in? If so, that would probably blow the MBB fuse. If you measured it with a good MBB fuse and the DCDC output disconnected, then I'd say your DCDC and BMS are toast, and your MBB may be bad as well, but there's no way to check without replacing the BMS first.
Battery voltage at the dcdc is not relevant, it comes directly from the battery.
Replacing the BMS and MBB will require a trip to the dealer, as Zero does not ship those to customers and they need to be programmed and configured.
The only plus side is that sometimes Zero will help with the cost of this failure, since those parts are very expensive. You could always call and ask.
Sorry about that dude, that sucks!
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Yes, I checked the voltage at the MBB connector with everything else unplugged too. Then I noticed that the 4A MBB fuse was blown, probably the reason for no voltage. I don't know why that fuse would be so big. Any idea? What else is it powering other than the computer? Can't imagine the MBB requiring 300+ watts. It would melt. I could try putting another fuse in and with everything disconnected check for voltage. Maybe that would rule out the battery?
I tried a new 3.1A fuse with everything disconnected except for the DC/DC converter and it blew. That's what I meant to say.
I can check the DC/DC converter using a fused external DC power supply. That would be completely independent of anything on the bike. Now that I think about it, it may make sense that the DC/DC enable line needs a delay before bringing it high to avoid inrush? Hmm, that doesn't really make sense though. I can try it when hooked up to an external DC power supply.
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Yeah, the MBB fuse would have to be good to measure the voltage on those pins. I don't think the MBB fuse powers much except the MBB, but just because its set to blow at 4A doesn't mean it's continuous draw is anywhere near 4A. The owner's manual says mbb/controller fuse, so maybe some controller logic is powered through the MBB.
The Low power b+ fuse is in series with the MBB fuse to power the MBB, so if the low power b+ fuse keeps blowing, I'm fairly sure your DCDC is kaput. I don't think the DCDC is sensitive to inrush current. Probing those pins with good fuses and dcdc disconnected would still be my go to for determining if the bms is still good
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Thanks for the help Auriga. With a temporary fuse installed in the MBB fuse holder and the MBB connectors disconnected, there is voltage across the pins 7 and 18. Couldn't get a 4A fuse overnighted for testing here later today but was able to get 3A fuses. When the 3A fuses arrive I will try plugging the MBB connectors in without fuses installed, then add the fuses and see if they hold.
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Fuse will NOT prevent BMS board from "lighting". BMS LEDs are BMS specific. Best suggestion is to remove and reset BMS having you "trained/skilled" technician clean all points of connection. We've seen batteries "die" only to become fully operational weeks/months later, this is especially true on 2014/15 model year FX modules.
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The BMS lights are out again. If I press the software reset button they come back with the right #4 one blinking green like all is normal. Weird.
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That does sound like a weak electrical connection somewhere, PVNRG.
-Crissa
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So I got a 3A slow blow 1/4" x 1-1/4" fuse for testing purposes and installed it in the MBB fuse holder. With only the MBB connectors connected, the 3.1A battery fuse blew immediately upon insertion. Battery is still blinking with the OK indication.
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Out of curiosity, what voltage did you get on the pins before you plugged the MBB in? If it was not pack voltage, the BMS is probably bad. If it was it could just be the MBB.
I do not think this is an intermittent wiring issue, but you could inspect the DCDC connector and the the MBB connector/harness for shorts.
If you were at a dealer they could connect to the BMS and see if it is still talking serial. Not sure if you have that capability.
Obviously I would not connect the DCDC up again, since it'll either blow the fuse or damage any parts you try to replace.
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The voltage was about 110V.
I have a USB / UART serial cable for connection to MBB but of course that requires a working MBB.
I do have a CAN bus adapter but have not used it with anything yet. I am assuming that the battery only communicates over CAN. Is there information on how to read the BMS? Register map? Or is there a console available somehow?
Going to try powering up the DC/DC from a separate fused external power supply next. Wish I had my bench power supplies from my electronics lab here at home... Time to move the rest of the "home office" / workshop / lab back to my house.
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Also, thank you TEV, Auriga, AutoE, and Crissa for the help so far. It is greatly appreciated.
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There is a page for it on the manual here. I have no idea if that works, but it looks right. Being a dealer, I have the Zero tools and equipment.
https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7561.0
You can talk to the MBB and the BMS through Serial and over CAN. BMS has that little white square serial/jtag connector next to the buttons and usually covered in goop
I think you're heading towards an MBB/DCDC and maybe a BMS swap. There isn't really anything else I'd try. I had someone who had roughly the same symptoms a year or so ago, and we had to replace all three of those. But Zero helped that guy with the price. All three of those are over 500 individually if memory serves.
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Thanks for the information Auriga, that is very helpful!!
It is a tax holiday here in MA so I'm thinking about buying all three today just in case. Since the battery is still under warranty, do you know if that includes the BMS? I would think it would include that. The dealer is open until 3pm here so I need to make a decision quickly. Hmm
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Yes, the battery warranty would cover the BMS. It might be tricky to get a dealer to order three expensive parts without them doing their own diagnosis. Zero screens orders of those parts, so they would call and ask why the dealer was ordering those. For Zero to cover anything under warranty, it'd have to be looked at by a Zero tech and probably a Zero HQ engineer. They also have to be programmed to each individuals bike, and Zero is not open on weekends. Zero HQ is evacuated due to wildfires, but I think order for Zero HQ was lifted, so hopefully they'll be back to ship parts sometime next week.
I guess it's a bit of a gamble, but Zero would probably discount/warranty more than you'd save by ordering out of pocket. Looking at about 400 for an MBB, 550 for the BMS, and 370 for the DCDC, plus probably 2-3 hours shop labor replacing all those things.
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Thanks. You have convinced me to wait.
I will perform further testing this weekend to determine if the DC/DC is failed. Going to go get my benchtop variable power supplies and a whole lot of other equipment from my electronics lab today. Will hook up the current limited voltage limited variable power supply with very conservative overcurrent fuse protection to the DC/DC converter input and see if it works independently of the bike.
Will also do the same with the MBB and see if the console becomes available. Are pins 7 and 18 the only power inputs required to wake up the MBB?
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That's a tough question. Since the MBB works without the DCDC, I'd hazard a guess and say those are the only power pins. I do not know what the MBB would do if it does not detect a BMS over CAN.