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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: NEW2elec on February 04, 2017, 12:06:40 AM
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This is a subject that I don't think gets enough attention and is actually very important to not only the current Zero owners but "rebuyers" and potential buyers alike.
Like some other people who aren't rolling in dough, money is a big concern with most choices in my life. I have never bought a new car and likely never will. I get them a few years old and let some other impatient person take that multi thousand dollar hit and enjoy the new car smell while I used the savings to pay off my house early.
Now if you are a top earner and money is like a river to you it just flows past with no concerns this topic isn't for you.
I'm revisiting the used market topic because it looks unlikely the Fed tax credit will be part of future budgets. Some states still offer credits but most of the country is on its own. The only bright side of this is the used market may see an up tic in sales and pricing. The tax credit of course only applied to new EV sales which made buying new at a dealer a tempting option.
I think these are great bikes and there are a bunch (not quite a ton) of videos on You Tube backing this up, pretty much all of them have huge smiles after the ride and lots of "wows" for the speed and smooth ride.
The the same hits come at the end range and charge time are talked about but its the price that keeps them from pulling the trigger most times. My closest dealer sits on the bikes for most of the summer (some sales but not huge) then in August they drop the price to 11 or 12 on the Rs and they are gone in a week. The product is wanted there is a demand but when its next to a faster sport bike for $10,000 its a hard sale for ICE loving riders.
Same dealer in early 2015, when the new bikes were just hitting the floor, offered me $4000 in trade for my 13DS I smiled and said no thanks and then said if he could show me any of these bikes for sale under 9K I'd think about it, he couldn't of course.
This is where the ball gets dropped by some dealers, used Zeros have value that a lot of other bikes don't. Zeros love to be rode! Pile on the miles boys they don't matter much. Tires and brakes (tough rare on the brake pads) some bearings replaced but that's about it. Your not wearing out a steel engine or cooking oil or fouling plugs or getting valves out of whack. You just plug and go.
I have a Cycle Trader search saved to my favorites and look at it most weeks to see whats out there. The 13s 14s are now about half of their orig MSRP that makes them in line with their ICE competition but a lot of people looked at the "new and improved" models (which they do improve them) and go to the dealers and take that ride it off the lot hit. If more people bought off private sellers two things would happen. Dealers would be more interested in trade ins and would offer more for them.
I'm not the only one seeing these trends and those who do want the latest and best look down the road and wonder what their hit will be. If the resale market gets looked down on than new bike sales will suffer as people fear they will get stuck with something they can't sell.
So don't be afraid of a used bike it has lots of miles to give and at close to half price there is a lot of wiggle room for some repair costs and even charging costs. Do your homework but give them a try it's better than a gas bike at the same price.
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In the UK there doesn't seem to be enough of a used market for prices to be determined. The odd one that I've seen hasn't sold. I suspect someone who paid £12k+ only a few years ago thinks at least £8k sounds reasonable, but cautious buyers look at a bike where tech has moved on a lot and don't want to pay that much. Things should change but that's how I see it for now.
I've ordered a new FXS and have assumed I'll keep it indefinitely. If I ever miss that ICE sound, then I might get a second bike to go with it, but I doubt I'll ever sell the Zero.
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I plan on trading/selling my S in 2021, when the battery warranty has expired. I expect to take a big hit on that, as I've been led to believe that monolith replacement is NOT an insignificant expense and considering how quickly battery technology has been advancing I don't think there'd be that much interest in five year old technology.
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NEW2elec,
My experience with trading in a Zero is you are going to take a huge hit. Huge hit being defined as well below KBB value. Motorcyclist in general are afraid of any motorcycle with high mileage. The industry average is something like 3,000 miles a year. When I traded my 2014 SR in it had a bit over 24,000 mile son it which was another reason trade in value took a hit. Part of the reason trade in values of Zeros are so low is most dealers are afraid they won't be able to sell them. In the end my used SR took two weeks to sell.
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Well I hope we can educate buyers and dealers alike that miles on a Zero isn't the future killer it is on an ICE bike. Your going to get fairly big price drops from the latest and greatest new Zeros that just can't be helped.
Would any of you who have owned, say 600cc or less, standard or dual sport or naked ICE bikes pay the same amount for a Zero?
Lets say a DR650 or KLR650 runs about 8-9k new which is about what a 13-14 DS runs used now.
Unless you were going 85% off road in some muddy bumpy trails to me the Zero is far nicer. Its also cheaper to run and much much smoother and quicker on the road too.
Just food for thought and a selling point that people need to know.
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It's not miles that kill the used price of a Zero, it's that tech is improving so quickly. e.g. Nobody wants a 2012 Zero because the later models are significantly better.
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It's not miles that kill the used price of a Zero, it's that tech is improving so quickly. e.g. Nobody wants a 2012 Zero because the later models are significantly better.
What HE said. I likened it to personal computers. They don't change TOO much now, but in the early days the development was so rapid that any PC you bought was obsolete in only a few months. Electric vehicles are kind of at that state now. Just look at the difference in power between the 2016 and 2017 models.
Also, remember the batteries don't last forever. When they're gone, they're gone. The price of replacing them is rather prohibitive (unless you've got one of the FX bikes). To me, THOSE are the downsides of the "Used Zero Market."
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Relevant write-up on the wiki (my doing): http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide#Used (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide#Used)
I also sat in on a Motorcycles And Misfits podcast and answered this question roughly for people looking for used Zero's.
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Relevant write-up on the wiki (my doing): http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide#Used (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Potential_Buyers_Guide#Used)
I also sat in on a Motorcycles And Misfits podcast and answered this question roughly for people looking for used Zero's.
Nice... feet. (https://soundcloud.com/re-cyclegarage/podcast-162-whos-the-douchebag-now) (Motorcycles & Misfits) is that the episode #162 at about 36 minutes in?
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Lets see Brian good advise as always.
Fred also true, to a point, for the record I wouldn't point anyone who isn't looking for a project bike to a 12 or older. Terry put over 75k on his 12 but his has little in common with a stock 2012 Zero at this point.
Remember Zero stated that even 13 bikes should do 300,000 miles before the battery reach a max 80% SOC even if that was under best conditions (which it surely was) cut it in half and you should out last most any ICE bike.
To be sure each year has been an improvement over the year before to Zero's credit but 13s and later fill most people's needs.
Everyone's money situation is different most people on here I would say are mid to high six figure earners. But most of the population "aint even close to that" and when they go to look at bikes I wish they could see some older cheaper electric bikes and give them a try and not be scared of what they are getting into.
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While my daughter's 2012S is running just fine, it does suffer from parts falling off of the rear of the chassis, such as the rear fairing cover and the entire tail light assembly, along with the "tank" cover plastic fasteners popping off occasionally. You do have to keep up with chassis repairs on that bike. Fortunately her husband loves to bodge-up stuff and the rear of her bike is supported by heavy metal straps and extra bolts and screws. :o I don't know how long the motor and battery will last on that bike, but I am sure that they will outlast the chassis. ;)
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I'd be more concerned about the suspension on the older bikes, than the battery.
Indeed a consideration I took into account when I upgraded to the 2015, was that the 15's used Showa forks, which are easier to repair and replace than the Fastace ones.
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...how quickly battery technology has been advancing
How quickly is it advancing? I've been following Zero for two years now and riding a Zero S for the past 16 months and I don't see any breakthrough in range or battery capacity since I've started taking interest in electrical motorcycles. What am I missing?
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...how quickly battery technology has been advancing
How quickly is it advancing? I've been following Zero for two years now and riding a Zero S for the past 16 months and I don't see any breakthrough in range or battery capacity since I've started taking interest in electrical motorcycles. What am I missing?
You need to expand your time frame over a couple more years, in the last 5-7 years the rate of advancement in battery technology has been pretty impressive, and over the last 10-15 years it's been astounding.
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You need to expand your time frame over a couple more years, in the last 5-7 years the rate of advancement in battery technology has been pretty impressive, and over the last 10-15 years it's been astounding.
I completely agree but for 2015+ models, I don't the progress is relevant since it seems the industry has reached a plateau in terms of capacity/range. I hope to be surprised, of course, but IMHO the changes in recent models was negligible compared to 2015 models.
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I completely agree but for 2015+ models, I don't the progress is relevant since it seems the industry has reached a plateau in terms of capacity/range. I hope to be surprised, of course, but IMHO the changes in recent models was negligible compared to 2015 models.
There has been some talk that Farasis has a more energy dense cell than the one currently being used in the Zeros.
Why Zero is not using it in the 2017's is a good question, either they have enough of the previous cell in stock, and that it makes little financial sense to upgrade at this time, or the new cell is lacking possibly in the required Power Density to support the more powerful 2017's.
Another interesting point to consider is Zero have recently changed the physical architecture of their battery, over to the "long" brick. My thinking on this matter is that the change was to simplify manufacturing across the range. However its possible the change is to support future development with a new cell type or arrangement of cells.
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"There has been some talk that Farasis has a more energy dense cell than the one currently being used in the Zeros."
From my understanding, yes there is. However it is the first time they have announced an improvement before going into full production of the new cell. Therefore, we could guess that they are in production now or soon. Probably announced in an attempt to draw new customers.
What's important to keep in mind is that Zero has expanded its development/testing time to at least 8 months. This means the next version of the Zero is being thoroughly tested before going into full production. Which we should all see as a good thing. Keep in mind most vehicle manufacturers have development periods of 3-5 years or even longer.
This also means it's likey Zero doesn't physically have these new cells to test in the 2018 development cycle. So if not 2018, 2019 maybe.
The advancements over the last, say 5 years, is nothing short of amazing. So stay tuned😀
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Yeah, I'm almost expecting we could get range parity with the average ICE bike in under five years.
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Yeah, I'm almost expecting we could get range parity with the average ICE bike in under five years.
My 2016 S already goes farther on a charge than my friend's Harley 1200 sportster on a tank of gas.
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Hey thought I would chime in, I've been shopping for a reasonable Zero since I test road a new DS in early 2015, the dealer I road it at was Maverick Motorsports in Missoula MT, out of the way for sure (2 hours from me) I also checked with the Seattle Triumph dealer and found several options, at the time they wanted $13k for their demo bike, only a slight discount, and I didn't have a specific interest in a DS. Later on in 2016 in Seattle I found a used 2014 SR for 9k, it had better acceleration then the 15 DS and farther range, but the suspension, and breaking system was less desirable. Checking back at the DS demo model was down to $11,400 and qualified for the tax credit, however, the tax credit only applies if you owe taxes not if you get a tax return. With my income around 25k annually I do not owe taxes so that didn't appeal to me. I held out on buying either and found a 2015 SR on eBay for 12k, offered 9.5k and settled on $10,250, a great price. The bike came with a quick charger less than 500 miles and a pair of Zero brand leather gloves. It's in the garage now and I couldn't be happier, even with the Empulse TT's going for 6k I know I made the right choice. The market is slim because most people haven't payed off their 2013+ Zero's yet and don't want to take a hit in addition to the scarce sales numbers Zero actually puts out. It'll take more popularity in ebikes for the used market to grow.
Oh around the same time I saw a used 2014 DS for like 12k on Craigslist.
Hope my insights provide something useful,
Cheers,
Taylor Rosevear
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Yeah, I'm almost expecting we could get range parity with the average ICE bike in under five years.
My 2016 S already goes farther on a charge than my friend's Harley 1200 sportster on a tank of gas.
Heh, though on average most bikes do 150-200 miles at 60-70mph on the motorway.
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Yeah, I'm almost expecting we could get range parity with the average ICE bike in under five years.
My 2016 S already goes farther on a charge than my friend's Harley 1200 sportster on a tank of gas.
Yeah, and it goes further on one charge than most of my past V-twin sportbikes too... However I cant do the same rides I used to do with them. With them I would do a big loop and gas up for the way back. With the zero I would have to recharge on the way back, and thats not realistic when you're riding a rural loop... so I need more range.
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Yeah, I'm almost expecting we could get range parity with the average ICE bike in under five years.
My 2016 S already goes farther on a charge than my friend's Harley 1200 sportster on a tank of gas.
Yeah, and it goes further on one charge than most of my past V-twin sportbikes too... However I cant do the same rides I used to do with them. With them I would do a big loop and gas up for the way back. With the zero I would have to recharge on the way back, and thats not realistic when you're riding a rural loop... so I need more range.
Besides, if you are riding with friends on IC bikes, when they refuel it takes less then 5 minutes, but if you have to refuel.....it doesn't. That is one reason that I want a larger battery pack instead of a fast charger. Plus, where I ride you would be lucky to find a 120V outlet, much less a charging station. They tend to be located where there are crowds of people and that are places that I try to avoid.
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No RV parks (14-50 outlets), car dealerships (J1772) along the way? If you're doing 100-200 miles, you have to pass by something. 30 minutes to stretch the legs and you'd be set to continue.
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Basically.
My idea is 150 miles at 70Mph, followed by a rest break for 30 minutes for a bite to eat and charging, then continuing onwards.
Once I can do that, I'll never need an ICE bike again.
I probably do a journey like that a half dozen times a year, otherwise the Zero covers nearly all of my riding needs.
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Basically.
My idea is 150 miles at 70Mph, followed by a rest break for 30 minutes for a bite to eat and charging, then continuing onwards.
Once I can do that, I'll never need an ICE bike again.
I probably do a journey like that a half dozen times a year, otherwise the Zero covers nearly all of my riding needs.
Yes, I think this pace would work for most people. Improving the bike gets the ride to charge relationship in that direction, but it's also true that charging density is so low in most places as to highly restrict how you can spend your time.
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Bear in mind I didn't buy the Zero for recreational riding. I bought it for a specific purpose. 80% or more of my annual mileage accumulation is done commuting back and forth to work and running errands after hours or on weekends. For that, the Zero is simply unbeatable. For weekend and longer trips, I have two ICE bikes sitting in the garage. Having the Zero means less wear and tear on them and significantly lowers their annual maintenance costs.
We're not ALL "Brian T Rice" or "Electric Terry" willing to go out of our way to use our Zeros for everything. ;)
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JamieC
Thats pretty much exactly what I use my SR for. Except my Diversion has seized up from lack of use... ;)
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I've been using the C650GT on the REALLY cold days (to take advantage of its superior wind protection, heated saddle and heated hand grips) so the scooter isn't just "sitting there."
I rode the K1200LT on New Year's Day and will be riding it again next month when I head down to Daytona Beach for Bike Week.
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We're not ALL "Brian T Rice" or "Electric Terry" willing to go out of our way to use our Zeros for everything. ;)
With a supercharger, not sure what you mean by "going out of our way". The supercharger is a game changer as I can't ride more than an hour and half to two hours straight with the stock seat anyway. But I get what your saying.
I think a lot of people who don't have an EV understand just how expansive the infrastructure is just by virtue of civilization being reliant on electricity. So for me, the zero DSR with a supercharger, is a do everything bike. But that's just me.
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Great post - thanks for sharing your thoughts. In a nutshell, if you’re going to buy an electric bike then regardless of how hard it is for some of us to accept, we have to grasp the fact that we're buying an electric bike because of our interest in electric and not for the fact that you’re going to make any impression on air quality or saving the planet, so let's leave out all the political crap that's circulating about global warming because our contributions mean almost nothing when looking at the big picture. With comparing the current low cost of gasoline, to the high electric cost in some states, it actually cost more to charge your bike with electric than a comparison cost of a gas bike. Next, throw in the the new gas tax and we’re paying much more than our Ice powered bikes.
As you outlined - you really have to want an electric bike to buy a Zero for the plain fact they deathly expensive in comparison to an Ice bike. Bottom line the most important thing is that your happy with your purchase, if you’re happy and can afford to pay the price then you’re good to go!
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Great post - thanks for sharing your thoughts. In a nutshell, if you’re going to buy an electric bike then regardless of how hard it is for some of us to accept, we have to grasp the fact that we're buying an electric bike because of our interest in electric and not for the fact that you’re going to make any impression on air quality or saving the planet, so let's leave out all the political crap that's circulating about global warming because our contributions mean almost nothing when looking at the big picture. With comparing the current low cost of gasoline, to the high electric cost in some states, it actually cost more to charge your bike with electric than a comparison cost of a gas bike. Next, throw in the the new gas tax and we’re paying much more than our Ice powered bikes.
As you outlined - you really have to want an electric bike to buy a Zero for the plain fact they deathly expensive in comparison to an Ice bike. Bottom line the most important thing is that your happy with your purchase, if you’re happy and can afford to pay the price then you’re good to go!
I'm not too sure where you're getting your "facts" BUT even though they may be more expensive to purchase up front, over the life of the bike it will cost a LOT less than an ICE bike. No spark plugs, no valves, no filters, no oil, no coolant, no clutch, no gaskets... none of those things that are routinely replaced at frequent intervals on an ICE bike. Also, I don't know where you get the idea that electrical energy costs more per mile than gasoline because that is just plain DEAD wrong. Even for those of us who DON'T produce their own power via solar panels, the electrical cost per mile is substantially less than the cost per mile for gasoline.
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There is currently a bill working its way through the California legislature that would charge electric vehicles an additional $165 per year, over and above the normal expensive vehicle yearly registration fee, in an effort to recoup what EV's are not paying in gasoline tax. Naturally, there appears to be no exemption for electric motorcycles, even though they travel many fewer miles than most electric cars and cause less damage to the roads than just about anything other than a bicycle. I once calculated how much gas tax I pay for one of my IC motorcycles each year, based upon 5,000 miles and I figured it was about $38 a year. So if this law passes us electric motorcycle owners are really going to get screwed financially. And not having the 10% EV IRS credit is not helping, either. :(
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Richard230,
Taxing EVs is becoming more and more common. I live in North Carolina which started out with a $100.00 EV tax that was paid when you renewed your registration. That has since been raised to $130.00. But now some counties are starting an EV tax. I heard from the guy who bought my 2014 SR and his county now has a $30.00 EV tax. So when he renewed his registration he had $160.00 of EV specific tax to pay. It sucks but any opportunity to tax something is rarely missed by legislatures.
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I really don't mind being taxed for using public highways, I just want the system to be fair, equal for everyone, and equivalent to the wear and tear caused by the vehicle. But, course that would be asking for a miracle. ::)
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There is currently a bill working its way through the California legislature that would charge electric vehicles an additional $165 per year, over and above the normal expensive vehicle yearly registration fee, in an effort to recoup what EV's are not paying in gasoline tax. Naturally, there appears to be no exemption for electric motorcycles,
Could you list the California bill? I would like to write my CA assembly rep to advocate for a fair burden sharing.
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I am sure that I have mentioned this in previous posts, but, FAIR won't be an option when it comes to the neanderthals doing the bills.
A " FAIR " option would be to charge by miles driven. REALLY fair would be to add wheels and weight into the equation. They will just
add an arbitrary figure of several hundred dollars so, if you put on a thousand miles a day in your Model X towing an Airstream, or
500 miles a year on your FXs, you will pay the same. I doubt that Zero has the $$$ to buy politicians.
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There is currently a bill working its way through the California legislature that would charge electric vehicles an additional $165 per year, over and above the normal expensive vehicle yearly registration fee, in an effort to recoup what EV's are not paying in gasoline tax. Naturally, there appears to be no exemption for electric motorcycles,
Could you list the California bill? I would like to write my CA assembly rep to advocate for a fair burden sharing.
Unfortunately, my information comes from a newspaper article that was published last month, along with some talk about the proposal on the radio. However, no bill designation was provided. So I don't know if the proposed law has been formally submitted or if they are still working out the details with the Governor's office and it is a "trial balloon". I bet that when it is submitted (if it hasn't been already) and voted on, details will be hard to come buy as increasing vehicle registration is not something that is looked upon favorably by most middle-class residents of California. ::) Plus, doing something to penalize electric car owners is going to affect a lot of the major vehicle brands and they have a lot more influence with the legislature than Zero does.
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Well I just posted my 2014 S on Craigslist for sale (and here). I just took a 50k cut in pay to do work I am more excited about... so something has to go; also, with a 100 mile range, I can just barely get to the fun roads around here, I am dead center in the Sacramento valley and all the fun roads are in the hills, out of range.
What I find interesting is that KBB lists my year model as $10,375 without the power tank, I have listed it as $8800 with the power tank, and although it's been posted only 2 days, I have gotten zero responses. But really that's not surprising; at this price range I imagine it is just waiting to find the right buyer. But if I can sell it for something close to my asking price, I'll be happy. Does my price seem reasonable? All in all, I do not regret buying the bike, and will recoup enough hopefully to have a few K to buy a track bike or something fun. :D
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@Manzanita it is the middle of winter here. Would fast charging help make your bike more usable?
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+1 to what Shadow said.
It's a bad time of year to try to sale a motorcycle. But I would say put it in Cycle Trader as well because a good priced Zero is worth the $400 or $500 shipping cross country. Good luck.
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Keep in mind you're also going to be competing with BRAND NEW Victory Empulse TTs that are being blown out the door for under $8,000 these days...
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But the TT stands for Ticking Time bomb.
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But the TT stands for Ticking Time bomb.
Bahahaha +1
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Dusk I'm glad you got my humor but I did feel a little bad about that statement so for the record.
I'm not happy that Polaris bought up Brammo and put them in with a company they were going to drop. I hope they keep this line of bikes but if they don't then it's tricky when you know they might not be covered after a few years.
I prefer Zero but all quality bikes are welcome. The TT is a good bike but maybe bad company support.
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Well I just posted my 2014 S on Craigslist for sale (and here). I just took a 50k cut in pay to do work I am more excited about... so something has to go; also, with a 100 mile range, I can just barely get to the fun roads around here, I am dead center in the Sacramento valley and all the fun roads are in the hills, out of range.
What I find interesting is that KBB lists my year model as $10,375 without the power tank, I have listed it as $8800 with the power tank, and although it's been posted only 2 days, I have gotten zero responses. But really that's not surprising; at this price range I imagine it is just waiting to find the right buyer. But if I can sell it for something close to my asking price, I'll be happy. Does my price seem reasonable? All in all, I do not regret buying the bike, and will recoup enough hopefully to have a few K to buy a track bike or something fun. :D
I think your price is reasonable - the problem with advertising electrics on Craigslist and boards most guys are deathly afraid of electric. I'm pretty much where you are, I have a 2017 DSR and live in N Georgia, so like you I'm very limited where I can go so I decided to let her go. I called all the Zero dealers in Georgia and the most they have offered is $12K. I have close to $19K in mine with the extras I added.