ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Doctorbass on June 04, 2012, 09:49:09 AM
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Does anybody ever tried to bypass the zero main brain computer that is limiting the full action of the throttle from 0-30 ?
Doc
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Ok so i decided to investigate on the connections of the throttle and the controller.
There is two wires that gors direct from the magura throttle to the controller. They are White and White/blue.
The reisstance on standby is 27 ohms and is 5061ohm at 100% throttle.
So the brain box of the zero is not having any effect on the throttle since the throttle goes directly connected to the controller.
Now.. i'm more confused... so how the controller is limited in power from 0 to 30 ?... The controller is the only thing that have an active effect on it and it is only controlled by the throttle signal...
Unless the 1/2 speed reverse could have an effect?.. is it only half speed during reverse?.. or can be haldf speed and half speed in reverse?
it cold be the half speed input pin that is activated when the speedo detect speed between 0-30.. ?
I found a great encouraging comment on another forum saying that when the half speed in reverse is desactivated, the forward speed seem better!.. i might try it.
".I can now go in reverse at full speed. On top of that, the forward speed is alot faster as well; I wonder why that is, but I like it. Anyone know if there are any potential issues to not using the half speed reverse switch(double microswitch)?"
The stock setting on the controller from zero have the Half Speed in Reverse option enabled... but there is No connection on it... so i wonder if it could be to limit the max speed! ?
Doc
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Doc,
I do not understand very well your explanation. Could you describe-elaborate the way you got better 0-30 acceleration?
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You have a reverse on your ZERO ? What model?
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If you want to change that, then you have 2 options,
One is a custom throttle curve IN the controller, NOT bypassing it ;) for 2012 and for 2011 tweaking on the ECU & or adding a better throttle curve to the controller again not bypassing the ECU or controller.
Two is to change the front sprocket size. And omg does this work well! Harlan from hollywood electrics did this on a 2010 Cafe Racer ... I was riding the cafe racer, and harlan was riding a 2012 XU... I thought harlan was just being a grandma on the throttle, but as it turned out, that's just how hard the modified sprocket 2010 blows away the stock 2012 Zero XU off the line upto the new top speed of around 65 mph.
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The XU is not very quick - I would guess around 15 hp to the rear wheel. The 2010 cafe racer .. based on an S right? should be quite a bit faster.
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Yep, based on 2010 S. You think the 2010 S stock was about the same as or faster off the line than a 2012 XU?
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If you want to change that, then you have 2 options,
One is a custom throttle curve IN the controller, NOT bypassing it ;) for 2012 and for 2011 tweaking on the ECU & or adding a better throttle curve to the controller again not bypassing the ECU or controller.
Two is to change the front sprocket size. And omg does this work well! Harlan from hollywood electrics did this on a 2010 Cafe Racer ... I was riding the cafe racer, and harlan was riding a 2012 XU... I thought harlan was just being a grandma on the throttle, but as it turned out, that's just how hard the modified sprocket 2010 blows away the stock 2012 Zero XU off the line upto the new top speed of around 65 mph.
Thanks for your reply, BUt the throttle curve mean nothing. it is just a 0-5k signal that is adjusted in relationship with the PWM that the conrtoller send to the motor... BUT.. if the ECU see that speed between 0-30, he just cut the current of the controller by bypassing the 0-5K of the throttle grip signal and overide it to a lower PWM to limit the max current, until the speed signal is above 30.
That's what i understand on how it work..
So what i mean is that you can be WOT full throttle, but if the ecu is limiting the current by overiding the throttle signal, you will not hae the full power until it's above 30.
I have to put it on my dyno and play with these throttle wires and DVM to see exactlyhappen.
Doc
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hmmm... I may be misunderstood what the throttle curve was. I thought it regulated the translation of the throttle position to the output power based upon the speed... I'll have to look into this more to see what it does.
If you are on a 2011, increase your scale along with your ramp rate on the ecu, be aware that if your peak is too high and your scale is also too high, you may get some cut outs as you accelerate. I really do notice better acceleration with my throttle curve. I'll have to draw my own and see what happens.
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hmmm... I may be misunderstood what the throttle curve was. I thought it regulated the translation of the throttle position to the output power based upon the speed... I'll have to look into this more to see what it does.
If you are on a 2011, increase your scale along with your ramp rate on the ecu, be aware that if your peak is too high and your scale is also too high, you may get some cut outs as you accelerate. I really do notice better acceleration with my throttle curve. I'll have to draw my own and see what happens.
Exactly, you can not force the full power with the throttle WOT IF some of the system protections or aparently speed below 30.
Here are my measurement to conclude how the system is working that way:
(http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=85354)
Doc
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I measured the continuity between the wires that connect to the alltrax and the wires of the MBB throttle input . ( in other words, what kind of resistance the BBM is affecting on the throttle line.
I found that whatever the key is OFF or ON, the white wire have 0.4 ohm ALL THE TIME
and the white/blu wire have 18.4 ohm ( probaly the MBB I/O components that are adding that resistance)
Now, when i reconnect everything except the two throttle wires that connect to the Alltrax and that i measure the resistance between both, i get 2.3 ohm when the key is ON ( wich is close to the throttle grip wires resisatnce themself ( 0.4 ohm) and corresponsing to the standby state ( 0% throttle)
When the key is OFF, the resisatnce is 1277ohm between the two wires.
That mean if i add a switch that make a direct connection of the white/blue wire between the controller and the throttle grip i should have acces to all the power all the time and the only limiting features will be the alltrax programming parametrers
Doc
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What is WOT ?
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Wide Open Throttle :D
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OK I have located the throttle line on the MBB connector.
This will alow easy acces for adding a switch between those two wires ( the 2 wht/blu , one from the throttle and one from the controller) i will be able to overide the limiting effect of the controller and have full power availlable al the time..
I'll have to be carefull for the usage to not have any problem if a malfunction would occur while the switch is activated.
I added some P-touch tape on these wires so you see where they are on the MBB big connector
(http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=85356)
(http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=85357)
(http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=85358)
(http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=85359)
Doc
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That's a 2011 right? you know there is a throttle curve in the controller, then a filter on top of that in the mbb.
I am not quite sure, but I think what you are doing could cause you to have the chance of your bike powering up at full throttle and flying away.
I would love to know how this works for you.
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That's a 2011 right? you know there is a throttle curve in the controller, then a filter on top of that in the mbb.
I am not quite sure, but I think what you are doing could cause you to have the chance of your bike powering up at full throttle and flying away.
I would love to know how this works for you.
Yes it's a 2011.
No danger, the switch is added in parallel with the wire that connect in serie with the "filter" ( mmb) so if the magutra ( throttle grip) is not twisted, than teh resistance remain near zero ohm so the controller is not sending any current to the motor.
(http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=85361)
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Doctorbass,
I'm not sure why you would prefer doing it this way rather than just adjusting the throttle curve in the MBB. The Zero MBB does much to improve the quality of the ride by filtering the throttle sensitivity and giving it torque control rather than speed control.
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Harlan is correct here, just reprogram the throttle curve or get someone who can do that for you. It's all software these days baby :)
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I am not sure that the throttle map is well understod.. maybe it's me.. but if i go wide open throttle from a dead start, trhe acceleration will be the same if the curve is linear, progressive or S shape.. or even.. not a curve but an horizontal line at 100% for all throttle position...
In other words, I think that the map is not related to the motor rpm on the X axis.. or to the speed on x axis.
it's just a throttle X to throttle graph Y meaning what throttle signal is applied for what throttle position on the grip...
In the graph you could have just a horizontal line set at 100% value on Y for all 0 to 100% X value and it would change nothing about the axeleration you get if you go wide open throttle from a dead start.
I have to test and get the truth about that.
Doc
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Doctorbass,
You're trying to adjust the throttle curve in the Alltrax which will do little to change the performance. You need to adjust the parameters that are in the MBB, that black box that Zero is filtering the throttle through.
The Alltrax does not give very nice throttle performance out of the box. The MBB smooths out the throttle and gives it more of a throttle feel as opposed to an off/on feel like the Alltrax does by default. If the Alltrax performed well in this application, you wouldn't have a company like Picoamps selling their Torque Control Modules for 129 Euros:
http://www.automotive.picoamps.de/en/products_more_en.htm (http://www.automotive.picoamps.de/en/products_more_en.htm)
So I understand what you are trying to do, but this hardware hack is not the right solution IMHO.
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Doctorbass,
You're trying to adjust the throttle curve in the Alltrax which will do little to change the performance. You need to adjust the parameters that are in the MBB, that black box that Zero is filtering the throttle through.
The Alltrax does not give very nice throttle performance out of the box. The MBB smooths out the throttle and gives it more of a throttle feel as opposed to an off/on feel like the Alltrax does by default. If the Alltrax performed well in this application, you wouldn't have a company like Picoamps selling their Torque Control Modules for 129 Euros:
http://www.automotive.picoamps.de/en/products_more_en.htm (http://www.automotive.picoamps.de/en/products_more_en.htm)
So I understand what you are trying to do, but this hardware hack is not the right solution IMHO.
Harlan, The throttle curve will no more be filtered by the MBB. It will be optimized by the Cycle Analyst V3.0 that i installed on the zero. I will only keep the filtered part of the signal for the protection feature of the Mbb is providing to not damage the battery, motor or any other safety/protection that are actually enabled on the stock zero.
That pico amp is really nice device, but there is also alot of great device developped by the overvolted electric bicycle lovers!
Doc
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How have your results been with this project so far?
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How have your results been with this project so far?
Yeah.. Pimping my zero.. that's what i'm doing guys ;)
It's what's on the list ;)
-Adding a 15 pin Anderson connection to have an easy acces to fast balance the pack at up to 30A: check
-Adding celllog8 to monitor voltages for each individual 14 cells string: check
-Adding a 75A Anderson connector to charge the battery FAST: check
-Adding 6 additional fused 12V connections from teh DC-DC output for future purpose: check
-Adding the Cycle analyst V3.0: check
-Adding an easy acces RS232-USB cable to program the Alltrax easy without dissassembling the bottom assembly: check
-Adding the throttle line bypass: IN PROCESS ;)
-Adding a cruise control: pending
Doc
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OK Yesterday with the Cycle Analyst connected and being able to monitor the real time power. I can confirm that the throttle curve of the zero motorcycle power management IS determining the max amount of current that can be delivered to the motor according to the speed of the motor.
That's probably why they added the shunt on the the motor wire. The Alltrax controller itself IS NOT a CURRENT BASED THROTTLE since it it not made for reading on the motor speed. But The MBB of the zero is made to convert it to a current based throttle by overiding the signal on the throttle line according to the speed the motor is and the current reading on the motor.
Also At full speed on flat no wind ( 108km/h) my zero is drawing 12kW and the max current i measured with the not perfectly calibrated shunt is 362A and the battery voltage sag is 6V ( battery was at 56V no load and drop to 50V, wich eman the total internal resistance of the battery including contactor and wiring IS close to 6V/362A = 16 miliohms.
More interresting real life measurement to come ;)
doc
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Please post a video of how it performing in action. Would love to see and hear your results.
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Also At full speed on flat no wind ( 108km/h)
You should be able to make it go faster, how much do you weigh.
I have my Zero setup through the MBB to average 120km/h (75mph) on flat rd with normal wind conditions, around 112km/h (75mph) on pretty decent uphills, and on flat Rd with a little tail wind, I have hit 133km/h (83mph). Downhill, I have gotten to 142km/h ( 88mph ).
I cant wait to put fairings back on foxy and test her out with the new stuff I have done. I have also lost some weight, so I bet I can go a smidge faster now :)
Looking forward to seeing more of what you are doing.