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Messages - MostlyBonkers

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1
I'd like to see them implement stronger regen (apparently they only allow about 10% of what the hardware is capable of) and add an electrical lever on the left side to control it (a thumb lever would probably be best to minimise the risk of people instinctively pulling it thinking it's a clutch), then if it's held while stopped and the throttle is twisted the motor spins in reverse.

The problem with having a throttle that twists forward is I don't want to have to worry about accidentally applying braking at the rear wheel under heavy front braking, while riding off road, or just pushing the bike along.
Excellent point there TheRan, and suggestion too.  Perhaps both would be really nice, with the throttle regen having an option to disable it, for those that don't like it for off-road use.  I don't see pushing the bike as being a problem as this would be done with the power switched off, wouldn't it?  If the power is on then there's little point in pushing.  I may have missed something there though.

I think your thumb lever control would also be useful under heavy breaking when the right hand is occupied using the break lever.

2
I like the idea of splitting them up by generation, it's something we're all familiar with and seems the most logical.

It may be a little too late to do this on the forum though. I feel sorry for the poor soul that would have to sift through all the topics and allocate them to their new home!  It's a bit of a digital soup at the moment.

It doesn't particularly bother me that SRF stuff is mixed in with the rest of it, to be honest.  In my mind the current subforum is just the place to go for the latest posts on anything Zero related.  That's since I lost all interest in 2012 models a few years ago.

I guess that if Brian manages to find the time and make the effort to categorise everything by generation on the Unofficial Zero Manual site, then the same should be done here.  Given the appropriate admin rights, I'd be willing to chip in and help sift through the soup and reallocate topics.  It would be a nice way for me to help out.  I wouldn't wish the job on anyone else though!

Thank you to everyone who helps keep this forum going. I still prefer it to the Facebook Group, even though that is more popular.  Thanks also to Brian, who has done such a magnificent job of curating the Unofficial Zero Manual site too. 

3
Who would like to see Zero implement a Vectrix style regen on the throttle? 

Vectrix made scooters which were ahead of their time. One really nice feature was the ability to twist the throttle forward and apply progressive regen.  If the scooter was stopped, it would go in reverse.  It's such an intuitive and easy way to control regen that I'd love to see it implemented on more motorcycles.

Yesterday I managed to find the patent that Vectrix holds for their regen system and discovered that it expires towards the end of 2022.  That would give Zero plenty of time to develop the same kind of control for their bikes, I would hope.  I don't know if patents can be renewed, for whatever reason, but if so, perhaps Zero could even pay a small license fee in order to implement this design?

I dropped an email to Dale Robinson, our UK manager yesterday and he kindly said he'd forward it to Abe Askenazi, Zero's Chief Engineer.  That should ensue it gets some attention at Zero HQ.  However, in the meantime, I was curious to see how many folks would like to see this feature on their bikes?  It might help Zero ascertain whether or not to implement it too.  They have a good track record of implementing features that customers have been keen on.


https://patents.google.com/patent/US6724165B2/en

4
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« on: May 03, 2020, 12:56:37 PM »
That scooter that MostlyBonkers was thinking of was the Vectrix (check out the Vectrix forum, below).  I test rode one during the late 1990s at the San Rafael, CA, BMW shop. That two-way throttle was one of its best features, plus it also had a slow reverse. The throttle had a neutral position. As I recall if it was stopped, moving the throttle forward past the neutral position, would slowly move the scooter backward, but if the scooter was moving forward, moving the throttle forward would activate the regen feature. I have no idea why that throttle idea was never used again. Probably because whomever still owns the Vectrix brand still owns their patents.  ???

The scooter was really ahead of the time, although it was a bit too expensive for the market back then and they started selling the scooter through exclusive Italian-brand auto dealers (perhaps because of its high price), which is never a good idea for scooter or motorcycle sales. By the time motorcycle shops started trying to sell the brand, it was already too late as the factory's finances were rapidly sliding downhill.  Apparently, they just invested too much in design and development and could not generate enough sales and profit to pay back their development costs. The Vectrix brand tried coming back once or twice over the years, but that never worked out and I have no idea where things stand right now with the brand's intellectual property and particularly its neat throttle design.
Very interesting, thanks Richard.

I think I've found the patent:


https://patents.google.com/patent/US6724165B2/en

It expires in a coupe of years.  Take note Zero!

In March of this year it was assigned to GP Technology & Innovation Ltd.  It might be a company name change or a different company altogether.

What I don't know is whether patents can be renewed or extended.

5
The throttle is far to twitchy to try to match what the zero point is.  It's far easier to set min regen at slack throttle and then have more of the throttle to play with for your speed.
You don't have to be at that exact zero regen spot.  Zeros coast very poorly even when regen is turned off to nothing (Energias coast better when regen is off) . Just go the same speed while going  downhill. There is no real need to know exactly  where the no regen-point is,  but you can find it by looking at the screen. You waste power even with no regen when the bike slows down. Just stay at a steady speed, just like Zero recommends for best range.

The only benefit of regen is when you're FORCED to slow down. Or else you're just wasting power as it will take more power to speed back up than you can save from slowing down regardless of your regen setting.

-Don-  Reno, NV
You're nothing if not stubborn, Don!  ;-)

I think we all understand what you're getting at, it's just that we much prefer to keep things simple and easy.  If the throttle had a larger dead spot before progressive regen as you twist the throttle forward, then we might use that.  There was an early electric scooter that did that (I forget the name), and I wish Zero and other manufacturers would implement it.  I love the idea of being able to vary the amount of regen with such an intuitive method.

I have to address one statement you made:


"You waste power even with no regen when the bike slows down. Just stay at a steady speed, just like Zero recommends for best range."

For starters, Zero don't get everything right so their advice is best taken with caution.  They royally screwed up by advising customers to leave their bikes plugged in all the time, for years I might add! 

I have an innate need to correct the first part of your quote: You don't waste power when the bike slows down, the bike loses kinetic energy.  That kinetic energy is lost to drag when coasting.  You do require power to restore that kinetic energy to either maintain a constant speed or get back up to speed if the bike has slowed.

The vast majority of power used to maintain any given speed goes to balancing the forces of aerodynamic drag.  Aerodynamic drag increases as the cube of velocity.  That means it also decreases significantly as you shed speed.  Therefore a bit of coasting, when conditions allow, is always a good thing as the power consumed getting back up to speed will be less than what would have been used maintaining it.

I'm not a hypermiler, but I've read their tips. One of which encourages getting up to speed and coasting where possible. Another suggests coasting a little towards to top of a hill and letting gravity bring you back up to speed on the other side.  None of that involves maintaining a constant speed.

Perhaps the most important point to make though, is that saving relatively small amounts of energy, or extending your range by a couple of miles or so, should be at the bottom of the list of things to do on a motorcycle.  Safety comes first and then having a bit of fun.  That's why I'm not so keen on the people out there going to extremes to get an extra mile or two to the gallon.  Unless they are already very competent drivers, or riders, they are undoubtedly putting others at risk by giving themselves an extra workload.  They also hold up the poor buggers that get stuck behind them!

I hope this helps Don, along with some great comments from Crissa and Richard.

6
I agree with Crissa.  I have tried Don's method of holding the throttle at a neutral position to prevent regen from activating, but I found it to be too touchy and too much work for me.  Just completely closing the throttle and coasting is more relaxing, especially when going down a long hill.  Having said that, riders should try both methods and use the one that works best for them   :)
+1  It's so much less effort to just close the throttle when you don't need to accelerate.  I've also tried coasting as Don describes. If anything it's unsafe as it's far too distracting.  We need to be looking at the road and concentrating on the traffic rather than faffing around with the throttle at looking at power and torque graphs.

7
That is a great dissertation, MostlyBonkers.  Which I fully agree with.  But I wouldn't have been able to explain the advantages of coasting with no regen nearly as well as you did.   :)
Thanks Richard, it's great to hear that my efforts didn't go to waste and made sense to somebody other than myself! [emoji106]

8
I think regen is a red herring, DonTom.  In fact regen is best switched off for the off-throttle position in order to increase range.  Max regen is still useful when using the friction brakes, but conservation of momentum is what to focus on when trying to extend range to its maximum.
At slower speeds which MUST vary a lot, regen is VERY helpful, so I am not sure what you're saying there. And there is never a real need to switch off regen as we can have it set to max regen and then use the throttle for NO regen at all. When you see no negative  or positive bars on the screen you have NO regen even with regen set to the MAX. Just don't use the "off-throttle". There is no real need for it, except for when stopping completely.

I think your bad battery was suffering from severe voltage drop, just as my ZF11.4 did when it was dieing.  It explains the poor range at speed: voltage drops more severely under load.
Of course it will drop voltage faster under larger loads. With new or old weak batteries.

Charge time was less  half the normal time to full with my bike with the old bad battery. The means less than half the distance as well. IOW, my 6.5 KWH battery was down to around 3 KWHs. Much like a NEW 3 KWH battery would be. Will charge faster, and will have a lot less range. But the exact same benefit (in distance)  from slow speed regen.

Since regen is mostly useless at higher speeds, there nothing is regained. There is much to regain at slower speeds when they MUST vary, as is the usual case at slow speeds, regardless if city or an unpaved road.

But a battery with half the KWH capacity will charge just as much (in added distance) from REGEN as a battery twice the KWH.

When my battery went south, it was obvious that the KWH dropped. Faster charging as well as less range proves such.

-Don-  Reno, NV
It sounds counter-intuitive to not use regen unless under hard breaking.  I had regen set to maximum at zero throttle for the first 20,000 miles on my bike.  I liked it because I was mostly commuting in heavy traffic and it meant I didn't have to use the brakes much.  However, I knew that a few people here had disabled regen on the throttle and had it set to max when the friction brakes are used.  I finally got round to giving it a try and haven't looked back.  It results in an even smoother riding experience and regen can still be used with the light application of either brake.

With regards to maximising range, minimising the use of regen makes sense when you think about all the energy losses from using it.  Whilst Zero's drivetrain is very efficient indeed, it isn't perfect.  Energy is lost in the motor converting kinetic energy to electrical energy. It is also lost converting it from AC to DC and then some more is lost while putting that energy into the battery.  Similar losses occur as soon as you open the throttle and use the energy that was just stored.  In most situations you're better off leaving the energy in its kinetic form by conserving momentum as much as you can when riding.  That also leads to much smoother riding; coasting more and allowing wind resistance to slow you down.  If you Google hypermiling, you'll get a more detailed explanation of some of the methods used to increase fuel economy.  Car drivers will even put their EV into neutral to coast and prevent regen at times in order to maximise their range. I find that a bit extreme though.  It's easier on a Zero as you can just switch it off in the custom settings. 

Once you get used to riding without regen, you'll probably find it even more enjoyable. I highly recommend it.  You'll also realise just how much speed reduces when off the throttle due to wind resistance.  Even going down quite steep hills you'll notice that speed is maintained or reduces slowly.  Therefore the brakes are only needed on the steepest of hills and regen will kick in as soon as you start to pull the brake lever, so you might not even get to apply the friction brakes in any significant way.  Your brake pads will still last as long as they did before. 

Some people find it disconcerting to ride with no regen at first.  We're all conditioned to expect some engine breaking when we lift of the throttle.   Persevere a little and it soon becomes natural.  I'll even go as far as to say it might even improve your riding skills as you'll be looking further ahead and anticipating the road conditions more, rather than relying on regen to slow you down.  You might make swifter progress too, as riding smoothly is a key aspect of advanced rider training.  It makes you quicker overall, even though it seems you're riding Miss Daisy... ;-)

I hope that helps Don.  If you've got anymore questions or I missed something from your previous post, then please fire away and I'll do my best.

Oh, and I hope it goes without saying: Never compromise your safety for fuel economy.  It can be tempting to take corners faster than you might otherwise.  Don't, unless you're confident you can stop in the distance that's visible to you and you've got enough grip etc.

I don't want to sound patronising.  I put last paragraph in because I've been guilty of making that mistake myself...

9
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« on: April 30, 2020, 02:17:53 PM »

Overheating was mitigated somewhat in more recent model years by developing a new motor that used internally mounted permanent magnets.  This significantly reduced the eddie currents that build up in surface mounted magnets, those eddie currents generating heat that can be difficult to dissipate in the rotor.

I once tried spraying water on the motor to try and improve the rate of cooling. I don't think it made any difference!

Just do what we did. Cut holes in the sides of the motor to force air through it. Debris/rocks get chewed up and spit out, no problem.

Do not actually do this. Or you could run liquid cooling like Arthur Kowitz!


Lol! And I thought I was bonkers!:-)))))))

10
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« on: April 30, 2020, 02:17:08 PM »
The existence of the air cooling fins on the motor suggests that there's definitely some merit to fans helping though. Probably quite powerful fans I imagine...

Cas :)
Sure, a strong fan would help, but perhaps much less than one would expect and less than the effort was worth.

11
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« on: April 30, 2020, 02:14:31 PM »
It can certainly help when planning and illustrates how much high speed affects range.  A good example of why we should never trust manufacturers' figures.
Here is what I discovered after getting a new battery in my Zero 6.5 (which is now 7.2 KWH). My very slow speed range improved quite a bit, like taking a trip on a long unpaved road. Such as the 40 mile round trip  to Quitobaquito Springs with my bad battery last December. I had no problem with enough range on the bad battery as there was a lot of regen helping.

But my freeway range increased the most, by far, with the new battery.

I have a theory why.  When my battery started to go south, the slow speed regen SEEMED to be more than ever. I will see the SOC increase a FEW points on a long coast, unlike now that the SOC  doesn't increase at all (with the new battery) going down the same hills. This is because the battery was also charging three times as fast with the bad battery (perhaps was a third of the KWHs), so the regen would show 3 times more charge as well. But in reality, the regen was adding the same range as ever, it just has less battery to charge. But at slow speeds, the regen helps a lot when it's the same KW charge as ever, but with less KWHs to charge. Regen is  adding the same range to a bad battery as it does to a good battery.

The big difference in range that I now have with the new battery is most noticeable on the freeway and at faster speeds. 

Comparing my old battery to my new, I now can get about twice the range at slow speeds, but at least four times the range at higher speeds than before. Wasn't what I expected to happen with the new battery.

So when your battery starts to get old or starts to fail, expect to notice the BIG difference on the freeway and at higher speeds. The range difference  is not as noticeable at slower speeds, perhaps because of the regen adding the same range on a bad battery as on a new.

If you notice your SOC increasing more than usual on a long down hill ride, that could be an indication of your battery having less KWH than before. Just as with faster than normal charge times.  My bad battery was charging to full more than twice as fast than it should.

Anyway, that is my recent experience.

-Don-  Reno, NV
I think regen is a red herring, DonTom.  In fact regen is best switched off for the off-throttle position in order to increase range.  Max regen is still useful when using the friction brakes, but conservation of momentum is what to focus on when trying to extend range to its maximum.

I think your bad battery was suffering from severe voltage drop, just as my ZF11.4 did when it was dieing.  It explains the poor range at speed: voltage drops more severely under load.

12
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« on: April 29, 2020, 06:24:43 PM »
Why no fans fitted to the motor? Hm.

Cas :)
More to go wrong. Zero's design philosophy is to keep it simple, as much as is possible. I wholeheartedly support that.  Also, I'm not sure increased airflow would make a huge difference.  The bottleneck in heat transfer is probably internal and has something to do with the conductivity of the materials used.  There's also an air gap between the rotor and the stator, which never helps...

Overheating was mitigated somewhat in more recent model years by developing a new motor that used internally mounted permanent magnets.  This significantly reduced the eddie currents that build up in surface mounted magnets, those eddie currents generating heat that can be difficult to dissipate in the rotor.

I once tried spraying water on the motor to try and improve the rate of cooling. I don't think it made any difference!

On a day-to-day basis, overheating isn't a problem. It's only when pressing on a bit that the motor enters the thermal management zone.  It's certainly not enough of a problem to make me want to upgrade.

13
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« on: April 28, 2020, 09:38:31 PM »
Knowing how far you can got flat out on the freeway is helpful as a lower bound.

-Crissa
Yes, thanks Crissa.  It can certainly help when planning and illustrates how much high speed affects range.  A good example of why we should never trust manufacturers' figures.

14
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« on: April 28, 2020, 09:33:07 PM »
Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P).  It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus.  I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!

With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac.  I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds.  So that's what I did.  I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power.  I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.

The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock.  I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount.  The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike.  I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat.  Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles. 

I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario.  The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway.  I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied.  It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads.  My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.

I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range.  Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag.  After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range?  We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.

I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers.  Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking.  An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs.  I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those.  Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.

Time is also a consideration.  If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management.  That would also affect any charging that was attempted.

A lot of this is academic though.  Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads.  They are very well engineered to do that.  After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.

I just thought I'd mention that Bugatti Veyron empties its 100 liter fuel tank in 15 minutes when trashing it. So riding a Zero so hard it goes into thermal slowdown, and thinking that that is somehow "true range", does not make sense to me.
By the way, riding a 2014 Zero into thermal management is very easy when having a bit of fun on the twisties.  The motor overheats very quickly and the challenge becomes finding opportunities for it to cool down. Going through villages is good for that.

15
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS
« on: April 28, 2020, 09:27:07 PM »
Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P).  It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus.  I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!

With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac.  I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds.  So that's what I did.  I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power.  I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.

The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock.  I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount.  The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike.  I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat.  Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles. 

I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario.  The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway.  I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied.  It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads.  My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.

I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range.  Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag.  After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range?  We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.

I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers.  Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking.  An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs.  I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those.  Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.

Time is also a consideration.  If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management.  That would also affect any charging that was attempted.

A lot of this is academic though.  Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads.  They are very well engineered to do that.  After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.

I just thought I'd mention that Bugatti Veyron empties its 100 liter fuel tank in 15 minutes when trashing it. So riding a Zero so hard it goes into thermal slowdown, and thinking that that is somehow "true range", does not make sense to me.
Perhaps knowing the range in the worst case scenario is just as pointless as knowing the best case scenario.  Both are unobtainable under everyday riding conditions.  Unfortunately manufacturers choose to quote the latter in all their marketing materials so it's nice to see the contrast.

Hopefully some of the other rides I've detailed in this thread are more useful to you and as such I don't think your comment was called for.

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