ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Булгаков on September 28, 2019, 09:08:26 PM
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Hi all,
My 2014 zero S has died again. It was parked, unplugged. I wasn't riding it because I am recovering from a bicycle accident. I noticed that the dash is flashing (no backlight) even with the key not in and turned on!
Tried plugging/unplugging the cord to the power outlet, turning kill switch or key on and off, made no difference.
The contactor doesn't click at all, and I know that the contactor is not stuck on because my voltmeter shows no voltage across the DC power leads.
No LEDs on at all in the BMS window, and resetting BMS button makes no difference.
I tried replacing the BMS 4Amp fuse, and the flashing dash went away.
However, as soon as I *either* turn the key on, or if I plug in the power cord to the charger, the dash immediately starts flashing again and gets stuck that way until I pull the fuse again. Also still no contactor click.
I'm out of warranty on the bike and I'm broke now that I'm in school, so taking it to the dealer is the last resort.
Apparently other people with this symptom had it with a dead charger? Should I consider trying to disconnect the OEM charger? It was already replaced once under warranty...
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You could try riding it around for a few minutes and then plug the charger back in and see what happens. The only time I have seen that screen flashing on my 2014 S was when the bike performed a "self-test" of the charger which failed the test. But when I unplugged the charger cord, cycled the ignition and plugged the charging cord back in, the flashing went away and never returned.
On my 2018 S the screen will flash like that when its firmware is being updated via the internet, but that would not be the case with your bike.
Sorry but that is all I have to offer. :(
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Try unplugging the 2 cables from the mbb under the seat on each side of center frame member and plug them back in. My problem wasnt exactly the same but this cured it. Couldnt hurt. See pic.
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Also, I think the 2014 models have a button under the front cover that will reboot the MBB. ???
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You could try riding it around for a few minutes and then plug the charger back in and see what happens.
Unfortunately, as I said it's completely dead and will not even engage the contactor. So the only way I can ride it around is if I find a hill to push it up to and coast down ...
I have tried plugging and unplugging the charger as well.
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Try unplugging the 2 cables from the mbb under the seat on each side of center frame member and plug them back in. My problem wasnt exactly the same but this cured it. Couldnt hurt. See pic.
Thanks for the suggestion-- I will try it if I can get back to the bike.
I was also wondering if I went to Fry's if I could find some USB CANBUS adapter in stock, and try downloading any logs from the bike since the Zero App on my phone won't connect.
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I swear it’s the firmware. The bms go into a internal disable or there is a bad sensor in the bms triggered by the new firmware. Be easier to disable the bms then order a recall.
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We have 2014 BMS. What was your purchase date?
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There are threads on here and on the unofficial manual with people who have built serial cables to talk to the bike. I guess you could try that, but if the bike isn't working I'm not sure you'd get much.
I swear it’s the firmware. The bms go into a internal disable or there is a bad sensor in the bms triggered by the new firmware. Be easier to disable the bms then order a recall.
If they did this and anybody proved it, they'd get sued so bad. Remember when Apple got caught slowing down older phones?
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If they did this and anybody proved it, they'd get sued so bad. Remember when Apple got caught slowing down older phones?
...And nothing happened to them because their reasoning was sound, that high-cycle batteries are more likely to crash on power draw spikes so slowing power-draw would reduce the number of crashed phones?
*sigh*
-Crissa
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Try unplugging the 2 cables from the mbb under the seat on each side of center frame
member and plug them back in. My problem wasnt exactly the same but this cured it. Couldnt hurt. See pic.
So I finally got a chance to get back to the Zero and try this out, but unfortunately it made no difference (other than blanking out the flashing dash , but that happened again as soon as I turned the key in the ignition).
I also tried unplugging the on-board charger signal cable, but that also made no difference.
Is there any other recommendation for things to try testing?
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We have 2014 BMS. What was your purchase date?
I believe it was purchased in May 2016 -- it was one of the last old 2014 models that I bought "new" on discount because it still had a warranty based on the purchase date.
Why do you ask? Is there a difference between month of manufacture?
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Okay, updates:
I built the USB TTL to OBD-II and also the USB TTL to BMS adaptors to try and troubleshoot some more.
The symptoms are the same currently, no contactor click, flashing dash when i turn the key, even with the onboard charger disconnected as well as external QuiQ charger.
I was not able to get any output from the OBD-II port at all, with the key on or off.
However, from the BMS port I was able to get some data (see attached log files). I tried doing a software reset and it appears there's a bootloader issue? I don't know why there would be -- nothing has changed recently (it's not like i had recently gotten a firmware update or something like that).
It appears to be preventing the rest of the system from enabling, and so no troubleshooting elsewhere.
The battery is still under warranty, but the 2-year full warranty has already expired.
Is there anything else I can try?
If I take it to a dealer, is it mostly likely going to be a battery/BMS issue (and therefore covered under warranty) or might I get a nasty with an expensive replacement of one of the other boards?
Thanks everyone for their help
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It does sound like a failure in a logic board that's shorting across the display pins.
From here, there's no way to isolate which board, tho.
-Crissa
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It does sound like a failure in a logic board that's shorting across the display pins.
From here, there's no way to isolate which board, tho.
-Crissa
Hm. That sounds like it would be an electrical issue that I could fix if I could locate it ... But I'm worried that I may have software/firmware issues now.
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I pulled apart the previous log files to make it a bit easier to parse.
I initially dumped all logs after connecting to the BMS, as seen here:
http://mx2.raapid.net/fileshare2/zerologs/dumpall-1.txt
I then ran a reset, and noticed that it had problems booting up apparently:
http://mx2.raapid.net/fileshare2/zerologs/reset-1_reboot_1.txt
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- Checking EEPROM............................
ERROR: EEPROM Self Test Failed To Read Stats Signature at Address 0x0000000E
FAILED
- Checking Chassis Isolation ................ Okay
DEBUG: 1572974447181 ..\src\Application\zero_bms_self_test.c : line 1653 - SelfTest Failed. Flags: 0x0020
EEPROM Self Test FAILED
ERROR: Startup Failed: ( code: -26 ) - EEPROM Self-Test Failed
EEPROM Self Test FAILED
Halting
ZERO BMS> DEBUG: 1572974447262 ..\src\Application\zero_bms_can.c : line 1509 - CAN0 FORM error
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Inputs, Config look okay after the reset though:
http://mx2.raapid.net/fileshare2/zerologs/inputs-2_reboot_1.txt
http://mx2.raapid.net/fileshare2/zerologs/config-2_reboot_1.txt
But the BMS is complaining that it has shutdown:
---snip--
Charger Disables:
- BMS has shut down due to errors
Warnings and Errors:
- Self Test failed the last time it was run
- Current Sensor calibration has not been set.
- BMS has internally disabled the system (exit to bootloader, or test mode).
----snip---
http://mx2.raapid.net/fileshare2/zerologs/status-2_reboot_1.txt
And the outputs confirm that the BMS has disabled basically everything else:
http://mx2.raapid.net/fileshare2/zerologs/outputs-2_reboot_1.txt
And here are the full errorlogdump and eventlogdump command outputs after the reset:
http://mx2.raapid.net/fileshare2/zerologs/errorlogdump-2_reboot_1.txt
http://mx2.raapid.net/fileshare2/zerologs/eventlogdump-2_reboot_1.txt
Does anyone have any idea if it's possible to restore the flash or otherwise resolve the EEPROM errors?
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It sounds to me like a component level failure. A sensor failure would make the BMS decide it was unsafe to operate.
-Crissa
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Now that you've separated all the log outputs, try forwarding it to Zero customer service in case they can corroborate.
Your cell voltages are at least in a nice place at the last reading.
Aside: I wish I could say whether those several PL536 failures are worth serious consideration or ignorable at the rate they're occurring.
(Now I'm regretting not documenting the BMS console commands while I still had a working bike. I'll see if I can get that from past notes and files.)
Overall, the reboot failure would (to me) indicate the need for a BMS replacement, assuming you've already disconnected the onboard charger and maybe other systems.
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I have a similar vintage Zero, a 14 SR, and I had to replace the BMS board a few months back after it went from powered to unpowered coasting on US101 at SSF. Luckily I was able to coast to the side of the freeway and push it back the onramp.
Zero dealer SFMOTO took care of it, but it cost a good chunk of change once labor was included.
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Now that you've separated all the log outputs, try forwarding it to Zero customer service in case they can corroborate.
Your cell voltages are at least in a nice place at the last reading.
Aside: I wish I could say whether those several PL536 failures are worth serious consideration or ignorable at the rate they're occurring.
(Now I'm regretting not documenting the BMS console commands while I still had a working bike. I'll see if I can get that from past notes and files.)
Overall, the reboot failure would (to me) indicate the need for a BMS replacement, assuming you've already disconnected the onboard charger and maybe other systems.
Good evening -- I appreciate your input on this. I have not forwarded the logs yet to Zero customer service department yet, but I will put that on my to-do list. The bike got dropped off at the local dealer last Friday (the 8th) but they have historically had lots of problems working on Zero bikes, and apparently as well with successfully communicating with Zero tech support many times in the past (both the factory and the dealer have pointed fingers at each other claiming that the other won't return calls), so I am not very hopeful.
Today the dealer said he'll try to contact Zero, we'll see. If they're unable to make progress I may take the bike back and try to get a truck and take it to a dealer in another city.
The last time I spoke with Zero customer service they referred me to the local dealer even when I had explained this problem before, so I was under the impression that they were no longer accepting calls from customers and instead are communicating only with dealers, which is a shame.
I have not found hardly any info about the PL536 errors when I have tried to google them. Any thoughts what could cause this problem? The bike already had the BMS replaced once, a month after I bought it, and had more BMS errors later on again that the dealer said was related to a loose connector, but they haven't been able to update the firmware when I've brought it to them before.
The on-board charger (and the Y-cable for the QuiQ chargers) were both disconnected, with no difference.
Do you know if Zero considers the BMS board to be covered under the "battery warranty" ? I certainly hope so!
Has anyone else had more than one BMS board replaced?
The only thing non-OEM about my bike has been quick charging (EVTricity charger) through a (fused) quick-charge cable attached to the controller terminals in conjunction with using QuiQ chargers on the factory accessory charge port, but no overriding of the 1C charge limit or anything like that.
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I have a similar vintage Zero, a 14 SR, and I had to replace the BMS board a few months back after it went from powered to unpowered coasting on US101 at SSF. Luckily I was able to coast to the side of the freeway and push it back the onramp.
Zero dealer SFMOTO took care of it, but it cost a good chunk of change once labor was included.
Yikes! That sucks! I had similar problems on my old 2012 Zero before it got traded in. :/
Was your battery still under warranty, but they still charged you for the BMS board?
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The BMS is part of the power pack and in my understanding is covered by the battery warranty by default. 2014 unfortunately is now 5 years ago, but Zero can be pretty accommodating.
The BMS price isn’t cheap, and I’m starting to think that’s partly because of the factory programming and dealer install and testing overhead. Not that’s it’s a low end component but that they bundle the labor.
There’s always a chance they determine that an external third-party charger or a custom modification caused some damage, but that requires evidence. Usually it’s something onboard.
PL536 refers to each of a cluster of chips on the board that help it deliver current to the layers of cells in the battery for cell balancing. I just have no idea whether those errors signify anything.
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Well, I got a small update today that doesn't make any sense to me:
The dealer called me back, said that a Zero factory tech had remotely accessed the bike, and apparently the factory tech believes that the MBB is actually the problem, and not the BMS, but that the MBB is causing the BMS problems as well.
This doesn't make sense to me because my understanding is that the BMS is enabling/disabling the MBB (which is what the BMS logs indicate), and the BMS is claiming that it cannot boot due to an EEPROM / firmware error.
The dealer says that the price of the MBB is $450 (but maybe a used one is available from the factory) and they don't have an estimate for labor charges yet.
Does this make any sense??
If I replace the MBB, (not under warranty) and it still is broken, and then the BMS still has to be fixed/replaced/whatever, then I would be screwed on paying for the MBB and the labor for it, since Zero won't pay for labor for things not covered by the warranty ...
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So apparently despite the BMS log errors Zero thinks it's a MBB problem, so they're sending out a test MBB to see if swapping that out either fixes the problem or enables them to troubleshoot the problems further.
Also, apparently "a good amount of errors, especially on older bikes, are false positives," according to Zero, which seems to me to be both good news (I might have a working bike again soon and I can ignore all those errors!) as well as bad news (I can't trust the logs for troubleshooting or predicting component failures).
We'll see.
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Errors in logs are often false positives - some other timing issue causes them. It's a real pain in diagnosing hardware ^-^
-Crissa
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The problem ended up being a dead MBB (no idea about the cause of death unfortunately), and after replacing the MBB it is working.
$$$ Ouch.