ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Marketplace => Buy Sell Trade => Topic started by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on November 06, 2017, 07:05:23 AM
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I've been working with a concept for the last year and finally have a designer with a prototype very close to deliverable.
But! It's important to understand whether we need to adjust it and to hear what people think before they see it.
So, please take the time to fill out this survey, no matter what your interest level. Whatever you have to say will be appreciated and considered, because we can't anticipate every perspective.
https://goo.gl/forms/PZWeHRg67i4gTJLu1
Thanks!
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Don't forget about a reflective option for hot lands! That black looks nice but is a sun magnet.
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Submitted
Would you want to put a heating element behind it for cold storage? *
I assume this is primarily to heat the battery up to be able to charge and to be able to leave with a cozy battery from the start?
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Submitted
Would you want to put a heating element behind it for cold storage? *
I assume this is primarily to heat the battery up to be able to charge and to be able to leave with a cozy battery from the start?
I think it's referring to storage in an unheated place. I would like heating while riding.
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
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Submitted
Would you want to put a heating element behind it for cold storage? *
I assume this is primarily to heat the battery up to be able to charge and to be able to leave with a cozy battery from the start?
I think it's referring to storage in an unheated place. I would like heating while riding.
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
"Insulation" implies retaining the existing heat, not pumping additional heat into the battery. The battery produces heat when being charged, and when in use. The insulation would retain THAT heat in order to keep the battery as close as possible to optimal operating temperature. Not an issue for those of you living in hot climates but a real issue for those of us who actually experience winter.
I get around the issue by using my ICE bike (pun intended) when the temperatures drop below freezing. I'm not sure of Zero's recommendation for prolonged winter storage but last year I just left the bike plugged in all the time when it wasn't being ridden.
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Submitted
Would you want to put a heating element behind it for cold storage? *
I assume this is primarily to heat the battery up to be able to charge and to be able to leave with a cozy battery from the start?
I think it's referring to storage in an unheated place. I would like heating while riding.
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
"Insulation" implies retaining the existing heat, not pumping additional heat into the battery. The battery produces heat when being charged, and when in use. The insulation would retain THAT heat in order to keep the battery as close as possible to optimal operating temperature. Not an issue for those of you living in hot climates but a real issue for those of us who actually experience winter.
I get around the issue by using my ICE bike (pun intended) when the temperatures drop below freezing. I'm not sure of Zero's recommendation for prolonged winter storage but last year I just left the bike plugged in all the time when it wasn't being ridden.
In winter, my battery doesn't produce enough heat, even with some insulation. The wind at highway speeds overcomes whatever heat is generated, and I get slower and slower.
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
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Submitted
Would you want to put a heating element behind it for cold storage? *
I assume this is primarily to heat the battery up to be able to charge and to be able to leave with a cozy battery from the start?
I think it's referring to storage in an unheated place. I would like heating while riding.
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
"Insulation" implies retaining the existing heat, not pumping additional heat into the battery. The battery produces heat when being charged, and when in use. The insulation would retain THAT heat in order to keep the battery as close as possible to optimal operating temperature. Not an issue for those of you living in hot climates but a real issue for those of us who actually experience winter.
I get around the issue by using my ICE bike (pun intended) when the temperatures drop below freezing. I'm not sure of Zero's recommendation for prolonged winter storage but last year I just left the bike plugged in all the time when it wasn't being ridden.
In winter, my battery doesn't produce enough heat, even with some insulation. The wind at highway speeds overcomes whatever heat is generated, and I get slower and slower.
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
On wet weather i am forced to drive slower means more range but lower temperature means lower range.
In my expierience it stays mostly the same
Gesendet von meinem S60 mit Tapatalk
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...
I think it's referring to storage in an unheated place. I would like heating while riding.
Brian's cozy is to insulate, not heat. It's to retain temperature while charging or riding, and to be fully or partly removable when the day gets warmer. Battery generates some heat under rapid charge (especially at low and high end) and rapid riding (like 70+ mph) and cool most rapidly under slower riding (55mph or less) so you'd want to adapt to whether you insulate or ventilate depending on the weather and the battery temp. You can check the battery temp from the Zero Motorcycles app or monitorit the Zero Voltage (android only) app. Battery temp above 50C/122F becomes a problem- contactor opens and you can't charge or ride until it cools, and it doesn't cool effectively unless you ride (at low to moderate speed).
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The first version of this product has to be very simple, and we will err on the side of having it doing less in exchange for being easier to operate and less likely to cause problems for the owner.
For that reason, it will focus on insulation first and let the owner decide whether they want to use heaters for unheated storage. There may be an option or two but we have to focus on build quality, durability, and basic expectations for the first production run.
Regarding hot weather, I will say that this is not appropriate for hot weather, and that repeated fast charging can mean taking it off early. There may be a "reflector shade" version but we haven't worked out what would be effective.
All the feedback here is useful, although I'm not going to talk about specifics until we've made some decisions which the survey helps inform.
I will say that with my prototypes, I lose much less range in the cold and especially the wet; there is still a range loss because of aerodynamics in the cold, but the relative battery warmth retained means that the majority of range loss goes away. Zero battery monoliths gain and lose temperature slowly, but the impact on range seem to do with effects at the edge of the pack because of external cooling.
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If its just a thermal blanket, then some of those silicone heater pads (the kind with thermostat) plugged in with the charger or separately if powerful, slipped between the battery and the cover would work.
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I suppose I should have asked sooner but, is your product only for S/DS models? At least when you do produce it, it should give me some ideas in my diy endeavors for the FX.
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
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I suppose I should have asked sooner but, is your product only for S/DS models? At least when you do produce it, it should give me some ideas in my diy endeavors for the FX.
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
We have no FX or FXS models to fit to, and they’re harder to actually protect even though they’re easier to wrap. But it’ll be doable if some near SF wants to volunteer a trial.
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What about a battery case that allows you to dump ice into it to cool the battery on hot days? That’s what I need more!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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What about a battery case that allows you to dump ice into it to cool the battery on hot days? That’s what I need more!
Me too! So far, every problem I have had with my two Zero bikes was from being too hot while it was well above 100°F outside in July/August. No problems this time of year.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I've disabled the Google signin requirement. Feel free to use the email entry at the end for follow-up, but I didn't realize how restrictive some of the options I configured were.
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What about a battery case that allows you to dump ice into it to cool the battery on hot days? That’s what I need more!
Me too! So far, every problem I have had with my two Zero bikes was from being too hot while it was well above 100°F outside in July/August. No problems this time of year.
If I knew how to productize something like that, you'd have heard.
Although maybe by spring we'll figure something out.
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You could go for a more sponge-like material, hose it before departure and evaporation will cool it down a bit.
I'm still in favour for an option to heat the pack a bit before riding, insulation is good but if you're starting with a pack that is near freezing temperatures you've already lost some range before you even left.
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Maybe now that Zero has the former Brammo head on board they will adopt the Brammo approach and install battery heaters.
Worked great on my Empulse.
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It is regrettably economically infeasible for us to prepare a heater option in any reasonable amount of time (2017) that would be a UL-certifiable product, for numerous safety and configuration hassle reasons. We do not want to be held liable for an unsafe product. I have to make sure that the designer gets paid and we don't get sued or get a bunch of refund demands.
The prototypes we've tested are reasonable insulators if you leave the bike on the onboard charger overnight. TBH I've seen my battery temperature inch right near the upper limit on a ~60F evening because I was fast-charging near 1C with one of the thicker mockups around it, and I had to remove it to continue.
The primary role of this product is to preserve battery temperature and range while riding in the cold and the wet; it has been observed that rain on the case is easily the largest factor in range degradation.
If you want a heater, the wrap will accommodate a heating element underneath, and we're debating the ability to install it over the charger belly pan, which would leave room for a heater in a safer place than right on the batter casing but would dramatically increase wear and tear. So, maybe we'll suggest running a heater on the ground under the bike where the wrap "catches" it. But there's no way I'll do that officially without testing.
I would generally recommend that if you use a heater very close to the battery case that you document it and ensure it has a number of safeguards in place to prevent any issues while unattended.
Honestly, feedback about customers' use of heaters would be very helpful; understanding what wattage works in what ambient environments, and possibly seeing what someone considers safe enough for their own use, even when we can't certify it.
What I actually expect is that fewer customers will need a heater with this product than can be profitably supported.
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I think this is a great idea Brian. I've mentioned this on the survey, but there's an important safety factor here too. My 2014DS slows down significantly in cold weather at low SoC. It also concerns me that the cells at the front of the pack could be significantly cooler than those further back. I imagine that results in a big difference in the performance of the cells across the pack.
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For those interested in a heater, Please consider this:
I've discussed with Luke about the heat produced by the stock 1.3kW charger. My concern was about the fact that i easured on the bottom of the case shell a temp as high as 45 degree C on my 2017 SR and that charger work for more than 10 hours so i was worried about the life of the battery that could be affected by all that heat for extended period o ftime and multiple cycles. Plus the fact that the long brick cells are a vertical stack of cells witch i thought would mean the cell at the bottom receive more heat than the one on the top witch would make cell to age not uniformely ove rthe time.... But Luke told be that the heat transfer between cells is excellent witch would mean the heat transfer over al the cells wold equalise adequatly the heat on all those great cells.
I dont want to hide the fact that i'm not 100% convinced as what i measured seem very large diff of temp between the top and the bottom of the monolith battery.. but that was on the case... and Luke was more talking about the internal cells...
So what i meant is that there is some silicon Thermal pad like OMEGA are selling that these already have adhesive on one surface. So it would be a great solutoin to stick these directly on the bottom of the cells with a temp sensor regulator, you could set it to the same temp the OEM cahrger is doing.. let say 45 degree C would be acceptable and a great cheap solution!
Doc
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Thanks, Doctorbass. I'm honestly just being cautious and really want to focus on the build quality first.
The designer I'm working with is optimistic that we can get out some pre-production units for testing, evaluation, and feedback this week. They're already planning how to make a production run of these and I'm sorting out how to take orders, etc. I don't want to talk about specifics until we've settled enough questions about production, durability, and ease of use.
I realize that there's enough snow in a lot of areas that are already making some store their bikes for the winter, but hopefully we'll be able to satisfy riders without that requirement right now and get the bikes back out of storage earlier in the coming season without a hassle.
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Thanks, Doctorbass. I'm honestly just being cautious and really want to focus on the build quality first.
The designer I'm working with is optimistic that we can get out some pre-production units for testing, evaluation, and feedback this week. They're already planning how to make a production run of these and I'm sorting out how to take orders, etc. I don't want to talk about specifics until we've settled enough questions about production, durability, and ease of use.
Kickstarter perhaps?
I just ordered a heating pad mostly used to keep seedlings of '"indoor tomatoes ::)" warm. It should be able to slide in next to the battery and heat it up If you're not charging overnight.
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Nothing gets you through a long winter like "indoor tomatoes" ;)
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Thanks, Doctorbass. I'm honestly just being cautious and really want to focus on the build quality first.
The designer I'm working with is optimistic that we can get out some pre-production units for testing, evaluation, and feedback this week. They're already planning how to make a production run of these and I'm sorting out how to take orders, etc. I don't want to talk about specifics until we've settled enough questions about production, durability, and ease of use.
Kickstarter perhaps?
I just ordered a heating pad mostly used to keep seedlings of '"indoor tomatoes ::)" warm. It should be able to slide in next to the battery and heat it up If you're not charging overnight.
I am not sure what aspect of this production would be solved by adding Kickstarter overhead. I do need to arrange for pre-orders, but either that or Kickstarter are not feasible until we are ready to present it with a price.
We’ll feel lucky if the orders are enough to justify the effort. One thing about the Zero market is it’s just too damn small for most business models to work, and the cozy idea is just simple enough to eke by.
Just remember that I’m expecting some to complain about why we don’t sell it for the price of the materials! As though the thousands of man hours aren’t worth compensation.
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You've answered a question for me Doc. I was wondering how good the heat transfer is between the cells internally. It makes a lot of sense to have heat pipes or suchlike to even out the temperature as much as possible.
I've also been thinking some more about the idea of using insulation on the battery pack. My own conclusion is that I won't bother. My reason is simply that I can now charge my bike at work, so I'm guaranteed highway speeds on my way home no matter what the weather is like.
One rather cold morning recently I noticed that my speed was restricted even at a 90%+ state of charge. After a few minutes of riding fast my top speed actually increased despite the SoC getting lower. I put that down to the cells warming up.
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FYI We had some delays regarding fabrication techniques, to make sure the result wouldn't wear out. Hopefully we'll have something to show off soon.