ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: NEW2elec on September 19, 2015, 10:17:45 PM
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Pretty interesting project for all you EEs out there super nice guy. I told him about the forum and I think he'll join soon.
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Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NukSXWpbBsE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NukSXWpbBsE)
Claims "300 mile range" while "doing over hundred miles an hour 90% of the time". Hmmm, can't be the original controller or motor (stock specs=67mph max), but he didn't mention changing those. Seems fishy, wouldn't he need something like 50+kWH to pull that off?
Anyway, very interesting, cool video.
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Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NukSXWpbBsE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NukSXWpbBsE)
Claims "300 mile range" while "doing over hundred miles an hour 90% of the time". Hmmm, can't be the original controller or motor (stock specs=67mph max), but he didn't mention changing those. Seems fishy, wouldn't he need something like 50+kWH to pull that off?
Anyway, very interesting, cool video.
You should be able to calculate the entire pack if you know the capacity of a single cell.
If the actual numbers are even near claimed than buying a pre-2013 Zero just got a hell more interesting.
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When did he say 100 mph?
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Well, call this newbie naive .... but ..... my reaction to these pix of the innards of the Zero molicell packs, and especially this video of the Tesla retrofit, is ...... Jeez, lookit all them batteries!! Of course I realize that this is a valid and practical way to build a battery pack, and really the only way possible for the early Zero models ..... but I cringe at the idea of tearing down one of these packs, let alone trying to build a new one this way. I mean, every connection is a possible failure point, either outright broken or ohmic, especially the "butt to butt" contact (flashlight-style) in the original molicell packs ..... this is a motor vehicle after all, a really rough environment.
That's why the Nissan Leaf module approach looks attractive to me ..... physically much simpler and potentially more robust ..... ??
I hope I'll get over my "multi-cell phobia" before I ever have to tear into one of these packs! Please, old timers ...... say something reassuring after havin' a laff .........
Mike
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The part that is scary is he basically doubles the amount of cells but you can't add more senstaps on the bms.... Sooooo not all cells are being correctly monitored..... Sketchy....
Well unless he's not showing us a lot of wiring
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I thought the primary benefit of using cylindrical cells is the ability to circulate coolant around the cells to control their temperature better. If you don't do that, it seems like the lower packing density of the cylindrical cells would reduce the power density of the pack for no particular reason.
Sure, it may be a fun exercise, but what's the benefit?
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When did he say 100 mph?
It's in the comment text below the video:
"I really don't know how far it will go only drove it about 150 miles at one time but I was hauling ass doing over hundred miles an hour 90% of the time. And when I finally stopped to have half of a battery according to the gauge. If you're A police officer I'm just kidding. :-)"
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It's certainly plausible that the capacity gauge is just not calibrated for the different cells. But further testing/engineering is a good idea. :) Otherwise, seems like a good one-off project as long as he doesn't endanger the system.
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for some reason I cannot see the comments on the video.... seems like it would be strong pack if the bms can hold up. its some older technology in the scheme of how far zero has come since that bike was made this battery bms has 1 wire per cell row, the newer have a extra wire per cell to moniniter each cell, gives you much better, well everything. I would be worried that the alltrax and motor cannot handle the extended run times... very interesting and impressive to say the least!
Id be curious how he even got the cells? how much were they?
does he work at tesla?
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I thought zero had the most dense battery in the world of EV's and the tesla chemistry / cells were inferior for the size they take up?
I would love to know his Wh/Mile and the pack capacity @ 100mph
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I thought zero had the most dense battery in the world of EV's and the tesla chemistry / cells were inferior for the size they take up?
I would love to know his Wh/Mile and the pack capacity @ 100mph
That's with the new pouch designs
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I had to post this about 5 mins before I went to work so sorry no vid link. I had seen a wrecked Tesla on Ebay a while back as I was sorting my search cheapest to highest I think that's where he got the cells from. As for the range and speed I think that would need a GPS mounted test video to confirm but I thought it was an amazing effort and love the external BMS plug in feature. My BMS just got replaced I didn't know it was in the box with the cells. Hard stops, cells shift forward, bad things happen. I would like to see prewired trays that you could just drop cells into and lock the stacked trays together. BMS could tell you bad cells in tray 2 section 4. Pop them out pop new ones in. Now I know it was a 2011 battery and I'm sure they set it up differently now but rubber bands and shrink wrap? That had to get pretty hot. Hopefully he will join the forum and with a little EE help get some good projects going.
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My point exactly. Take a new battery, a more dense battery, rewire it for the lower voltage and throw it into an older zero and get more than 300 miles since the telsa cells don't have the same energy density.
I thought zero had the most dense battery in the world of EV's and the tesla chemistry / cells were inferior for the size they take up?
That's with the new pouch designs
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Guys -
I need a serious course on Zero battery topology and BMS configuration. I've been trying to search the Forum for specifics, getting nowhere. I'm specifically interested in the 2011 Zero S battery pack .... thought I saw somewhere that it was 14s12p, which works out to 168 individual cells at ~ 3.9vdc/cell = ~ 56vdc/pack ...... but then I saw a 336 cell count on another thread. I'm confused ......
And then there is the matter of the BMS ...... does this system monitor EVERY cell in the pack (ideal) or just each series string? I ask because the thread about the 7 Nissan Leaf Module Retrofit inplies that the stock BMS can be retained. I can only see 14 BMS sense connections with 7 of these modules, unless one hacks into the module to bring out individual cell connections. I know I'm missing something here; does the BMS only balance the series interconnections, but treat cells in parallel as a monolithic cell?
Please pardon the newbie Q's .........
Mike
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Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NukSXWpbBsE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NukSXWpbBsE)
Claims "300 mile range" while "doing over hundred miles an hour 90% of the time". Hmmm, can't be the original controller or motor (stock specs=67mph max), but he didn't mention changing those. Seems fishy, wouldn't he need something like 50+kWH to pull that off?
Anyway, very interesting, cool video.
Very nice job assembling the battery. I hope it doesn't heat up too much.
Each "sheet" of his 18650 pack is 16 x 11 cells, he has 4 sheets. I assume the 16 cells are in series, the 11 cells are wired up in parallel, and the sheets are wired up in parallel. That gives him 16s44p, at 3400 mah (approximate) that gives about 59V and 150 Ah, or about 8.9 kWh (nominal). A bit more than the 2012 ZF9, and the pack is much smaller and lighter! (cell weight = 32 kg, enclosure and BMS and wires and whatnot probably add < 10 kg. The ZF9 pack weighs 69kg including the enclosure.
The 16 batteries in series is slightly concerning, since the stock BMS I assume only supports the stock 14 cells in series. Maybe he replaced the BMS too, or maybe he wired up the pack in a funky configuration. The controller and motor can handle the extra voltage, that's not a problem.
As for 150 miles at highway speeds 90% of the time at 100 mph? Unless there's something he's not telling us, like he's got a super-streamlined body shell .. I'm going to call BS on that :)
Guys -
I need a serious course on Zero battery topology and BMS configuration. I've been trying to search the Forum for specifics, getting nowhere. I'm specifically interested in the 2011 Zero S battery pack .... thought I saw somewhere that it was 14s12p, which works out to 168 individual cells at ~ 3.9vdc/cell = ~ 56vdc/pack ...... but then I saw a 336 cell count on another thread. I'm confused ......
And then there is the matter of the BMS ...... does this system monitor EVERY cell in the pack (ideal) or just each series string? I ask because the thread about the 7 Nissan Leaf Module Retrofit inplies that the stock BMS can be retained. I can only see 14 BMS sense connections with 7 of these modules, unless one hacks into the module to bring out individual cell connections. I know I'm missing something here; does the BMS only balance the series interconnections, but treat cells in parallel as a monolithic cell?
I'm not certain but I think that's correct; the parallel cells are balanced together, there aren't individual cell connections.
In my notes I had:
2010S is 14s22p 2900 mAh cells, 3.8v per cell = 53.2v 63.8 Ah nominal (3.4 kWh). 308 cells.
2011S is 14s25p 2900 mAh cells, 3.8v per cell = 53.2v 67.5 Ah nominal (3.9 kWh). 350 cells.
But I think you are probably right, I see other sources on the internet that state 14s24p (336 cells) for the 2011. So I need to check my numbers.
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^^^^ exactly!!!
Yes for the older bikes 1 senstaps goes to the row of cells.... Sketchy
It's much safer to have a sense tap on each cell then the be can actually do its job, not just think it's doing its job.
So yes it balances rows at a time not cells at a time
Burton I've had many in depth conversations about using farrisas cells the problem is you need a really good step down to get the voltage back down from the 116 range
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Does there exist an actual schematic diagram of the battery/bms for these older Zeros? Anything would be of help here ..... I have a lot of experience with electronics, but not much with multi-cell series/parallel battery packs ..... particularly Li chemistry.
Mike