ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Motogib on July 13, 2017, 04:20:46 AM
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I just bought a 2017 SR with a Charge Tank but need more speed. Well charging speed that is. I was wondering if anyone was using a Diginow Supercharger (3.3 or 6.6) with a bike that has a Charge Tank installed. Do you just plug it in to the aux charging port? Any issues with the BMS while simultaneously using the ChargeTank? Does anyone have the exact dimensions on the 6.6 Supercharger?
I've read a lot of the charging related posts here but didn't find a specific answer to my situation. If I missed it I apologize in advance.
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I was sure I saw a post about this on the forum or FB recently, but now I can't find it.
The unofficial manual links to DigiNow and Elcon information about the Supercharger:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Zero_Aftermarket#DigiNow_Super_Charger (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Zero_Aftermarket#DigiNow_Super_Charger)
The Elcon product page lists dimensions on a fuzzy schematic image. Those dimensions are accurate:
http://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm (http://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm)
As far as Charge Tank compatibility, it should work fine. Going through the aux charging port will work, but take care to add up the charging rates to make sure you don't exceed the fuse limit of 100A. A 6.6kW SC plus the 2.5+1.3 of the Charge Tank with onboard charger puts you exactly at the 10.4kW of the ZF13.0 2016-2017 bikes' limits. (And I've heard the Charge Tank can hit 2.8 so that would put you over the limit.)
In short, 6.6 will have a likelihood of blowing the charge fuse. You can work around this by getting your Supercharger programmed to a lower setting, by disconnecting the onboard charger while supercharging, or by connecting the Supercharger to the battery through the controller, although the contactor limit might still kick in.
I'd recommend arranging for the onboard charger to be disconnected while charging this way. You'd want a switch to operate or connection to unplug before beginning the charge.
But, on the other hand, charging from two J-plug stations at the same time feels pretty bad-ass, I can say. :)
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I just remembered that I've run an Elcon 2500 with the onboard charger, coupled with 6.6kW from a J-plug station simultaneously, and that this works fine with the controller connection for the Supercharger. So the charge tank might be a touch higher than that, but seems basically workable.
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I've seen slightly over 4kw from the charge tank plus on board. Now that you mention it, how does that not blow the fuse if you use 6.6kw from the supercharger?
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So why not just a single 3.3 module? If he's getting near 4kw with charge tank and onboard, plugging in a 3.3 to aux port will put it at 7.3kw, not too shabby.
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Maybe he just use the diginow and the onboard supported by the chargetank (6,6 + 2,4 = 9 kW). Should be around 90A.
I mean the chargetank itself shouldnt be plugged in.
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And I've heard the Charge Tank can hit 2.8
Well, never have had that happen in the 8 months I've been using the thing. In my experience, combined charging is more like 3.3kW so the tank only attributes for 2kW...
I'm using the charge tank with an extra charger on the AUX plug, works fine. Just make sure the aux charger starts charging after the battery contactor is closed, that's all.
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If you're using additional superchargers off-board, then you could add a second charge port connector directly to the controller terminals.
If you're mounting them on the bike, then hardwire them to the controller terminals.
Doing this bypasses the stock charging fuse, so you don't risk blowing it and can go full speed.
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And I've heard the Charge Tank can hit 2.8
Well, never have had that happen in the 8 months I've been using the thing. In my experience, combined charging is more like 3.3kW so the tank only attributes for 2kW...
I'm using the charge tank with an extra charger on the AUX plug, works fine. Just make sure the aux charger starts charging after the battery contactor is closed, that's all.
Okay, that makes sense given what I've read about the TSM2500; its output is very conservative.
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Thx for all the replies! I think I'm going for the 6.6 and will worry about the options later!
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I have the charge tank and would like to add the 3.3kW supercharger. How would I wire it up so that the tank J772 inlet is used for all three chargers (1.3, 2.5, & 3.3)?
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I have the charge tank and would like to add the 3.3kW supercharger. How would I wire it up so that the tank J772 inlet is used for all three chargers (1.3, 2.5, & 3.3)?
The ChargeTank modules I've seen all have J1772 inlet directly wired it is not connectorized. I don't think there is an easy way to mount the DigiNow SCv2 charging module in there when the ChargeTank module is already mounted.
I would suggest traveling with the additional charger for connecting to the AUX port when needed. You will be able to use the extra charging module as an external charger that way. If there is a better mounting please share the discovery.
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I have the charge tank and would like to add the 3.3kW supercharger. How would I wire it up so that the tank J772 inlet is used for all three chargers (1.3, 2.5, & 3.3)?
It would be a rare J1772 station that could feed all three. Most of the J1772 stations I run into are limited to 6.7kw and you have a total of 7.1kw there. Running them all off the same J-plug would require custom wiring, and I would worry about warranty support in that config. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but like shadow says, "not connectorized". That said, Hollywood Electrics has a Tesla inlet that can feed two J1772 inlets, and Tesla Destination stations can easily cover 7.1 kw. (They do up to 19kw, I think)
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I have the charge tank and would like to add the 3.3kW supercharger. How would I wire it up so that the tank J772 inlet is used for all three chargers (1.3, 2.5, & 3.3)?
It would be a rare J1772 station that could feed all three. Most of the J1772 stations I run into are limited to 6.7kw and you have a total of 7.1kw there. Running them all off the same J-plug would require custom wiring, and I would worry about warranty support in that config. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but like shadow says, "not connectorized". That said, Hollywood Electrics has a Tesla inlet that can feed two J1772 inlets, and Tesla Destination stations can easily cover 7.1 kw. (They do up to 19kw, I think)
If the diginow respected the pilot signal, it would know to throttle down to the 6.7 level when in a low power charger, and then would throttle up for a higher power one.
thats the exact reason there is a pilot signal in the first place.
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The diginow version 1 did follow the pilot, but it caused errors on lots of stations and the pilot asks the charger to stick to no higher than 30 amps, which is like 5.8 to 6.0 kW on most stations, just ask a LEAF driver lol. So I like the new supercharger without it as you can get the full 6.6 from the charger.
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> If the diginow respected the pilot signal, it would know to throttle down to the 6.7 level ...
No, it's actually not that granular, unfortunately.
Terry, thanks for posting, it's good to have your real-world early-adopter experience here.
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> If the diginow respected the pilot signal, it would know to throttle down to the 6.7 level ...
No, it's actually not that granular, unfortunately.
Terry, thanks for posting, it's good to have your real-world early-adopter experience here.
it doesnt have to be that accurate, you're going in 3.3kw chunks.
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So from what I'm hearing, only the 2.5kW charge tank and 3.3kW should be used together from a single J1772 30A EVSE to avoid tripping the 30A breaker feeding it. How do I wire them so they operate in parallel form one J1772 30A EVSE? I'm still unclear on this.
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So from what I'm hearing, only the 2.5kW charge tank and 3.3kW should be used together from a single J1772 30A EVSE to avoid tripping the 30A breaker feeding it. How do I wire them so they operate in parallel form one J1772 30A EVSE? I'm still unclear on this.
No one has done it and we don't have a reasonable solution to recommend; the Charge Tank is a self-contained solution, not a modular one.
To be clear, the Charge Tank is relatively expensive and no one ever worked on another charger with any expectation that the Charge Tank could be made to work with it. Its only real advantage is that it's an OEM solution that integrates well into the bike and has a warranty.
I think the only idea I can reasonably suppose would work is to make a J1772 plug that splits into a J1772 passthrough inlet to the Charge Tank, split off to a plug for whatever charger you want to work in parallel, but that's a lot of work for not much gain.
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The reason why I'm asking is that I already installed the charge tank more than a year ago in my shop. I did not know of any other on board charge options at the time. I'm a hands on electrical engineer so making custom cables is no problem at all.
So Brian, could I add extra AC power cables to the existing J1772 receptacle to branch off to the supercharger and adjust the pilot signal resistors? Perhaps I need to do some research on the J1772 specifications.
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There's a signalling component that does a handshake, saying essentially, I'm here and I'm ready to take current.
That's triggered, presumably, by the electronics in the bike verifying the contactor is open.
The station then turns on the 208-268VAC (IIRC) which feeds into an AC-DC converter.
A careful and competent person could probably find the thick cables that do such a thing and branch them so they feed a diginow SCv2 charger brick. Or other quick charger If I was doing such a thing, I would use proper high voltage precautions, use heavy duty double-layer adhesive lined shrink tubing etc.
But I don't think you'll get anyone here to say *you* should do such a thing, since we don't know your skill level, education level, personality traits, etc. Liability is an ugly thing, and high voltage is dangerous. : - )
But I can say, that I have empathy for your situation, and in your shoes I might well do what you are proposing. Assuming good crimping skills and care are taken.
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togo, thanks for the input!
I'm confident in my power electronics skills and did a little research on the J1772 handshake. It looks like as long as the stock systems come up and start charging first, another charger can then feed current into the system in parallel if kept within the current limits of the system.
The remaining unknown is what the charge tank is telling the bike or what communication is happening there. Are CAN bus messages being sent between the two? I'm not sure what would happen if the bike thinks it is getting a certain current but is getting more than that if that is what is being communicated. Does anyone one here know?
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...I'm not sure what would happen if the bike thinks it is getting a certain current but is getting more than that if that is what is being communicated. Does anyone one here know?
The bike's MBB will trip the contactor above a certain current sense sustained for more than a few seconds, typically 1C rate for the battery system installed. Otherwise all you need to tell the bike is to keep charging mode enabled, I think. So far as anything I've read the bike MBB cannot (and/or does not) request different rates of power. I think your question applies more directly to the programming on the ChargeTank charging module and stock onboard charging module.
Does anyone know better, is there some kind of power level directive from the MBB?
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The charge tank will close the contactor (charge enable). Using the the onboard charger does as well. Keeping the key on does as well. I had to charge key-on for a few months while my onboard charger was offline (it failed on the way to my SCv2 install appointment!)
The main contactor will open and all charging will stop if you exceed 1C usable (on my 2014 SR 11.4, that's 10kw) or if the battery gets too hot (50C)
You can monitor battery temperature if you charge with key on and use the zero app. You can put the battery temperature on the riding screen and then use riding screen preview to see it.
The main effect you should see is that the SoC may lag a bit, but it'll reset when it sees 116.4v
There are more details on this stuff at zeromanual.com
Please report back any discrepancies you see, but this is how I think it works.