ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

Q: "Is dat bike electric?"
A: "No, it's nuclear. It runs on plutonium. Totally hush-hush experimental shit. Stand back. Better yet, get 10 miles from here as fast as you can. If it goes it'll take out the whole city. Go! Go now!"

Q: "Is it safe to ride that in a thunderstorm?"
A: "Hell, no. Unlike the electrical system that lets your ICE bike or car burn fossil fuels my Zero is 100% ionic. The child lightening trapped inside the black box under me is at all times crying to be freed by its angry parent in the clouds. Every time I ride in a thunderstorm the lighting crashes at me, trying to TAKE ME OUT! That's Zeus fighting to free Ares. Engineers at Zero installed this by magical methods in my battery in Scotts Valley, CA, patent pending.

Q: "It's so quiet. Isn't that dangerous?"
A: "Do your ears aim backwards? No? That's because you are a normally developed human. We are not designed to hear the direction of sounds coming from behind us, only that there is something behind us, somewhere. Loud and scary? Then run faster, caveman!  Not until that rumbling Harley occupied by a geezer dressed like a pirate has passed you and is in sight in front of you can your normal human apparatus figure where the noisy thing is at and not hit it. By then you may have switched lanes unconsciously to make the scary noise somewhere behind you stop. Oops. What about the geezer on the noisy thing? All he can hear is himself. The Zero rider hears all. He is safer because he knows you are a nitwit and needs the advantage of knowing where you are at all times such as when you're driving ahead of me but you think at home on the couch chatting with your nitwit friends on Facebook.

Others?

My on-the-road recharge policy:

- If at a parking garage, charge without asking. I'm not worried that I'll flip a circuit breaker as garage outlets are intended for industrial use and the parking fees are so absurdly high I figure my few cents worth of electricity use is covered and then some.

- If at service station or service/convenience station I first scout out an outlet and if I find one outdoors go inside to buy something. While buying I'll ask the clerk if I can plug in for a while to charge my battery. I don't explain what kind of battery because that will raise all kinds of questions that may lead to a "no" and I'm not concerned that I'm going to flip a circuit breaker because, as in a garage, these circuits if built to code are designed for high load anyway. To my mind the profit on the over-priced item I've purchased more than covers the electricity I use.

- If at a restaurant or coffee shop same deal as a service station. Building code for restaurants is also stringent. Once seated I'll ask. If I sense a friendly vibe in the place even if I haven't found an outdoor outlet I'll ask if there's an outlet near the back door to the kitchen that I can run my power cable from to my bike.

Using the policy above I have yet to be turned down.  That said, I bet it makes a big difference which US state or country you're in. In the friendly mid-west USA, no problem.  Here in the northeast US where the motorcycle season is short and an electric motorcycle is a curiosity, no problem. In California where the place is teeming with EVs, more of a problem.

Quote from: ZeroSinMA on June 24, 2014, 06:04:55 AM

Harley Livewire launch creates media op for Zero. Zero CEO handles obnoxious Bloomberg reporter effectively.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/what-s-it-like-to-ride-an-electric-motorcycle-HYsm1h7nSqa9oVsF_AHZNw.html

I note that Richard Walker did a good job of not answering the question about how many bikes they have sold this year.   

That information is sure hard to come by.

Except that Zero has elsewhere stated 2400 units.

The Bloomberg reporter is both obnoxious AND lazy.

Typical U.S. business media

Here is another article:  http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-06-19/electric-hogs-roll-across-u-dot-s-dot-as-harley-tests-no-exhaust-demand

I wonder if H-D is going into the "carbon credit" or "cap-and-trade" business?  That bike will definitely attract another type of customer, one that most likely will not be welcome in a "biker" bar.  As far as range goes, most bars are closer together than 50 miles.   

Lots of studio photos here:  http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/19/5823818/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-project-livewire-tour

They are going after younger buyers with the Livewire.  See:

Analysis: As boomers age, Harley hunts for younger riders

(Reuters) - Harley-Davidson Inc doesn't do much quietly. Its motorcycles are notoriously noisy. Its slogans - "Screw It. Let's Ride." - are loud too.

So why was the Milwaukee company quiet last year when by its own numbers it successfully zoomed past a demographic hazard analysts had fretted about for years?

Some background: In a recent interview, a top Harley-Davidson executive told Reuters that in 2012, for the first time in years, the average buyer of the company's bikes was not a baby boomer.

For a brand defined by the emergence and, lately, the aging of the post-World War II cohort of consumers, that's a big deal - proof the 110-year-old company is gaining traction with a new generation of riders.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-harleydavidson-boomers-analysis-idUSBRE95K0GU20130621

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/leaked-details-harley-davidson-livewire/

So my estimate of 14 kWh/100 miles needs to be cut in half to 7/50, and implies lower weight, say, 450 lbs vs 500.

Why bother making a bike that goes only 50 miles? The market already voted on 100 miles as the minimum hurdle. Not until 100 miles with the 2012 bikes did Zero start to sell product in meaningful volume.

I'll stick with my $20K price estimate.

I love the way this bike looks:

- Mirrors mounted below the handlebars
- LED blinkers on mirrors
- LED headlight
- Long wheel base (trade-off is less maneuverable at low speeds/less teeth rattling over bumps)

Zero Rip-off features:
- Black anodized aluminum frame with red wheels ala Zero S
- Sounds just like a Zero SR

I'll take a test ride for sure.

I think the big holdup from the traditional manufacturers is the lack of a single-standard widely-deployed fast charge network.

In 2014 there is no realistic way to tour on something resembling a conventional bike. Yes, it is possible with a 900 pound slipstreamed bike with 200 pounds of chargers onboard.

You see this even with EV-friendly commenters.

I posted:

Quote

The Mission R is an example of the type of bike that can tour with reasonable speeds. Mission claims 140 miles of real-world range for their top-spec bike, likely in mostly highway operation; this is 2-3 hours of riding with a 30 minute charge. I assume the 30 minute charge is to 80%. More realistically you will stop every 20 minutes for a 50% charge.

An example 200 mile trip:

- start at full w/ 140 miles of range
- ride for 1.5 hours = 100 miles, discharge down to 29%
- stop for 20 minutes, charge back to 82% (+75 miles of range)
- ride for 1.5 hours = 100 miles, discharge down to 10% (14 miles remaining)
- charge at destination @ 6 kW AC = 3 hours

Total ride time: 3 hours. Total mid-trip charge time: 20 minutes. Pretty reasonable.

Every 100 miles added to the trip will add a 30 minute break, or one 20 minute break every hour of riding. If you ride at lower speeds – say 50 mph average instead of 70 mph – then you can probably reduce the total length of the charging breaks by 20%.

200 mile trip: 20 minutes total, 1 break
300 mile trip: 40-50 minutes total, 2 breaks
400 mile trip: 70-80 minutes total, 3-4 breaks
500 mile trip: 100-120 minutes total, 4-5 breaks

So a 500 mile trip – roughly 7-10 hours of riding – will need about 2 hours of breaks to recharge during the trip. I think that’s reasonable for non-ironbutt riding.

A $35k motorcycle is the first can approximate the ease of touring that ICE bikes enjoy today. But that'll come down in time.

Quote

However, do a few high performance electric motorcycles push the human race forward? No. Yet, when these bikes are considered as one part of our 4-year plan, they do. Mission’s mission is to enter at the highest end of the market—where customers are prepared to pay a premium—and then to drive the costs down as quickly as possible. We will leverage higher unit volumes to offer lower prices with each successive model. This is our plan, and we’ll accomplish it while continuing to boost the performance and technological capabilities of our products. Our meticulously architected plan has us entering the market in just 4 years, with a motorcycle that will outperform our best-in-class Mission RS, at a price well below half of today's price. And this will enable our master plan: replacing the internal combustion engine, across the entire planet.

So for 2018 .. sport bike performance rivaling anything on the planet .. similar touring capabilities as today's ICE bikes .. priced competitively against similar ICE sport bikes .. and hopefully launched into an environment with a well-established single-standard DC charging network.

I believe we'll see full-sized electric competition from the established ICE bike manufacturers at that time. And not before.

Unless the fast charging tech for batteries AND fast charging stations deployment accelerate this isn't going to happen. The reality is that a tank of gasoline has 10x the energy density of the best batteries today and 5x better than theoretical (there's no Moore's Law for batteries as for microprocessors as ions unlike electrons take up space).

In the video, it shows someone going to 100 km as if it were programmed to go that fast only. It also looks a bit smaller than a standard size bike. I think it will be an urban commuter only with a shorter range, something like 50 miles (20 miles at full speed). I was thinking a little less $...maybe $8000, and a smaller battery since it is going to be so light. If I'm right, it may just make owners hungry for a real electric motorcycle and that means Zero (or Brammo).

It's possible that Yamaha builds a low cost, short range commuter bike... a bike between a sport ICE and a scooter... but the price has to be in the ICE scooter range and that's tough with LiIon. Just ask Elon Musk. He figured out that 200 miles is the minimum range for even the Country Club adoption. He's promised a cheaper version than the S but it's BS. Good luck trying to build a whole car for the cost of goods for a LiIon battery to move tons of battery and metal 200 miles. For a commuter EV bike the minimum is 100 miles and the COGS on that pack is still in the $3000 to $4000 range for a rider on a diet riding a 220lbs bike.

Those are some interesting comments ZeroSinMA, and ones that I agree with.  But I am not sure that even Yamaha will be able to meet your projected price of $10K for their bikes if they come with a 12 kWh battery.  If they did though and the bikes still have look a like the concept models, they would be off to a good start in the market.

By the way, did you check out those videos of the BMW factory assembling the C Evolution scooter?  Now that is a real modern factory operation and shows what a major manufacturer can do once they decide to mass produce a new vehicle.

Good points, so add advantages #7, #8, and #9: brand name recognition, economies of scale, economies of conversion or application of existing manufacturing plant.