ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: NervEasy on March 03, 2020, 11:30:41 PM
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Hi,
I had an idea but I'm not sure it would work. My bike (Zero S 2019) has a 6kw ChargeTank. These tanks have a J1772 type connector. As I live in the EU and all the charge solutions have Mennekes connections, Zero has provided me with a cable that goes from Mennekes to J1772 (top diagram in picture below).
This is a 1 phase cable as the J1772 is a 1 phase plug. Where I live we have a lot of 11kw chargepoints but these are 3 phase Mennekes charge points, so about 3kw per phase. And when I charge at such a point I can only get 3kw even though the charge point can provide much more and my tank could go up to 6kw.
So to alleviate this problem slightly I though it would be nice to add the onboard charger in the mix and connect it to an unused phase on the Mennekes port. Then I get 3kw+1.3kw= 4.3kw and that's a little closer to the 6kw I should be getting.
So I was thinking of modifying my charging cable and adding a standard charge plug, this is a rather easy and fast mod to pick up some untapped energy. This is what the bottom diagram depicts.
Would this work?? Will the charge point just supply this weird load?
PS: I haven't drawn the pilot signal wire or PP connection (onn mennekes plug) as I would just leave them as is and I think they are not relevant?
(https://i.imgur.com/wIgi6SY.jpg)
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This should work, provided that the onboard doesn't get switched off somehow by the internal electronics when using the charge tank.
The charge point doesn't mind the uneven load. It just looks at the highest current on each of the phases and that should be lower than 16A (on a 11kW charging point)
When connected to a 11kw station, you should get 3.5 kw for the charge tank (16A * 230V * 95% efficiency) and 1.3 for the onboard so about 4.8 kW of total charging power (
On a 22 kW charger (also lots available) you should be getting 6 kW for the charge tank and 1.3 for the onboard for a total of 7.3 kW or about 63 to 75 amps into the battery.
But do not do this on a 7.2 kWh battery as you would exceed the 1C maximum current. Anything higher (11, 12.5 13.0 14.4) is fine
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Jep, My bike is a 14.4 and I regularly use both granny charger on tank and onboard charger together so I know they can work together.
Thank you for the confirmation. I'm thinking about modding my Mennekes plug with an extra cable with Neutrik Powercon True1 connector so I have a bit of flexibility.
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Could you not pair up two of the 3kW phases for the charge tank, then the third phase for the stock charger?
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Could you not pair up two of the 3kW phases for the charge tank, then the third phase for the stock charger?
If you want a big kaboom, then yes :)
with a three phase system, the three phases are 120 degrees out of sync with each other. The charge tank only has a single AC connection so no go in using 2 phases for it.
Best is to seek out the less common but still plenty available 22 kW charging stations. Most apps like charge map or shell recharge or plug surfing etc allow for filtering of charging stations according to maximum power. setting that filter to 22 kW and higher and you get the full 6+1.3 kW of power with this mod
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I did almost exactly this to liberate the two un-used phases a Mennekes station provides so I could hook up two Eltek flatpacks on L2 and L3. Works like a charm. Still thinking about swapping the 2.5kW chargetank for a 6kW unit...
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> > Could you not pair up two of the 3kW phases for the charge tank, then the third phase for the stock charger?
> with a three phase system, the three phases are 120 degrees out of sync with each other. The charge tank only has a single AC connection so no go in using 2 phases for it.
Rectified might work. Some of the charging bricks can take DC/pulsed DC. I did *not* suggest you try it. It could kaboom.
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That's very interesting, there is only one thing I don't understand : how is the voltage regulated on the other phases ? is the stock charger able to manage the voltage ordered by the charge tank to the station ?
Otherwise, where could such a cable be bought ? I'm clearly not confident in my ability to make one and I would not risk it.
I can't find an existing commercial type 2 -> type 1 + c13 cable/adapter, which is not very surprising.
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The voltage/amperage isn't really regulated by the charging station for level 2 AC charging, it just says what's available.
So when you're doing a manual solution like this there is a chance to go over what amperage available at the station.
-Crissa
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To reply to the rectified comment earlier. The chargetank only accepts AC when going by the tag on the side (I have a picture...). But as it is a SMPS it could however work on DC.
I do not know about the charge brick in the belly as I haven't checked the tag on that...
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So made a cable today. A Type 2 with a 3 phase 32 Amp cable (5x6mm²+2x0,5mm²) to a single phase Type 1 plug. 2nd phase connected to a Neutrik Powercon True1 connector at the Type 1 end and 3rd phase not connected (for the moment). Some 3D printed caps for the Neutrik connectors as these are only waterproof when connected.
Haven't tested it yet, hopefully tomorrow. I think I got all the CP, PP, and resistor stuff correct.
(https://i.imgur.com/9dVpnpl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XYX8waw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/q9jTUPE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7vUFjbr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IYbGlrO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2afkKEG.jpg)
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> To reply to the rectified comment earlier. The chargetank only accepts AC when going by the tag on the side (I have a picture...). But as it is a SMPS it could however work on DC.
It really depends on the circuit inside. SMPS that can accept wide range of voltage (90-240 VAC is a common label) often start with a rectifier followed a voltage smoothing circuit, so if you feed them DC instead of AC those circuits are basically just less active. BUT THIS IS NOT GUARANTEED. I've had luck connecting USB power bricks and laptop bricks to DC, and TC 3.3kW charging bricks intended for AC are reported to work on DC, but it's not guaranteed and the label usually won't indicate DC is OK.
> I do not know about the charge brick in the belly as I haven't checked the tag on that...
It probably won't be labeled as OK either.
Doesn't mean it won't work, but it might explode in your face, set fire to your home, and eat your pets. If you try it, take proper precautions.
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Some 3D printed caps for the Neutrik connectors as these are only waterproof when connected.
What are you using the Neutrik connectors for?
-Crissa
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It was that or a regular shuko female plug, these are way smaller, they interlock, safe when disconnected under load, and are actually waterproof when connected. A big factor is also a bit of a deterrent when charging out and about. A regular shuko plug can be disconnected and used for something else by anyone (cable can also be stolen). Now it's useless to anyone unless they have a connector (not common). Also I also use them at home for my charging setup. So less cables to carry. Just one 230V charge lead that I can plug into everything (my granny charger at home so I can double charge with that also...).
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I would have just expected you to have the single charging point cable with an IEC end on it at the right length for the bike. Does it need to go far?
-Crissa
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Well i also want to be able to charge without using the extra lead (belly charger). If I will leave the bike for longer or don’t trust the neighborhood. I just leave the extra cable off. So yeah i just want enough flexibility.
Also of i take my granny charger with me I only have 1 cable for the belly charger that can go on either the big cable or the granny charger or by itself. So no redundant wires.
I know it’s al a bit silly but I like it this way :)
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It was that or a regular shuko female plug, these are way smaller, they interlock, safe when disconnected under load, and are actually waterproof when connected. A big factor is also a bit of a deterrent when charging out and about. A regular shuko plug can be disconnected and used for something else by anyone (cable can also be stolen). Now it's useless to anyone unless they have a connector (not common). Also I also use them at home for my charging setup. So less cables to carry. Just one 230V charge lead that I can plug into everything (my granny charger at home so I can double charge with that also...).
Check the specs again. IIRC, Neutrik are not meant to be disconnected under load.
They are nice and compact and waterproof though.
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Hey Togo,
Check here: https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/nac3fx-w-top
These are not the standard neutrik powercons. They are CBC safe and can be disconnected under load. It says so on the neutrik page i pasted above.
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Cool!
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meno male che in italia le colonnine sono tutte da 22kw
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Si, meno male.
Yes, thank goodness.
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So made a cable today. A Type 2 with a 3 phase 32 Amp cable (5x6mm²+2x0,5mm²) to a single phase Type 1 plug. 2nd phase connected to a Neutrik Powercon True1 connector at the Type 1 end and 3rd phase not connected (for the moment). Some 3D printed caps for the Neutrik connectors as these are only waterproof when connected.
Haven't tested it yet, hopefully tomorrow. I think I got all the CP, PP, and resistor stuff correct.
Hi there,
any news on how that worked out ? I'm very interested in this solution if it works !
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Hi,
Works perfectly no problem :)
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Nice ! Is there any specific electronics involved in the making of the cable ? is the resistance value between pp and pe different from the standard type 2 -> type 1 cable ?
I would love to know more details about this, if you want to share them.