ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Jarrett on June 03, 2019, 05:39:27 PM
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I know... its been beaten to death, but since I've got one on order, I just gotta ask one more time.
116 ft-lbs. of instant torque, no traction control, just how dangerous is this bike?
I ask because another DSR owner just posted a high side report on ZMOG after owning and riding the bike for 3700 miles. He said he was making a turn at 15 mph in Sport mode on a dry, but freshly repaired road and the bike pitched him, road rash, broken collar bone, damaged bike, etc.
I totally get that on a demo ride a Zero can catch an unsuspecting rider, but after 3700 miles of experience with the bike, why is this kind of thing happening? It's not the first time I've read this either. Pinaero on YouTube said during his 8.000 mile review of the bike that he had recently low sided it unexpectedly.
It makes me wonder what is it about the bike that is throwing riders off after thousands of miles of experience with the bike? I read a lot of motorcycle forums and I don't see this type of pattern anywhere else, where someone says I've been riding X bike for Y thousands of miles and today it surprised me and threw me off.
Is this a coincidence or is there something inherently dangerous about this particular bike?
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I should mention, I've had no issues with lack of traction control on my FX in the last 1600 miles, but I understand that the acceleration is introduced differently on the R models than the FX models. My test rides on the DS, DSR and SR/F didn't indicate any weird traction issues other than the back end stepping out on me once on the SR/F with the traction control disabled. My test ride on the DS or DSR didn't give me that feeling at all.
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As I've said in many other threads, I lowsided my FXS. The torque delivery caught me off guard because it's different. I don't consider the bike dangerous; I think I was dangerous on the bike that day. I wouldn't call it coincidence; the bike has the capability to spin up the rear wheel extremely fast. It can be ridden safely with a smidgen of respect. Without going on a rant, my opinion is this is more about risk tolerance and accepting personal reliability than it is about being inherently dangerous.
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If the DSR is the same as the FX, then there is no issue as the FX is completely safe, imo.
I'm just wondering if the R models are inherently more dangerous than the non-R or FX models due to an undisclosed issue.
Just dawned on me that the DSR+PT tank has a lower torque to weight ratio than an FX or FXS. Maybe this is all moot.
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The problem is that most Zero riders come to the sport with a fair amount of ICE riding and are used to the inertia of the entire drive train having a "flywheel effect" which slows down rear wheel speed transitions when hitting a slippery spot on the road. You don't get this effect with a direct-drive electric motor. It spins up instantly and can catch the rider unaware. The only way you can combat this effect, without having electronic traction control, is for the rider to be very aware of situations that might cause a loss of traction and to be very careful with the throttle when cornering, especially on wet or sandy surfaces or when accelerating around freeway on-ramps, which tend to be covered with light oil or anti-freeze. If you don't have a type of traction control it might be a good idea to switch to "eco" mode when riding on wet streets.
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It all depends on the rider. I love the torque on my dsr and the ability to spin-out whenever I want. Ive been riding sport bikes for over 40 years because I love the power. It didnt take me long to adjust and respect the extra torque of the dsr. Some people learn slower.
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If you don't have a type of traction control it might be a good idea to switch to "eco" mode when riding on wet streets.
I guess this where I wonder if its different. I get that first time riders might not respect the bike and fall. I get that some might go out when its wet and under estimate the bike and fall.
What I'm wondering about is a rider with experience on the bike out on a nice, sunny, warm, dry day being surprised and taking a spill because the bike behaved in a way that was unexpected and had not occurred in thousands of miles of previous riding on the bike.
My VFR1200X is 127hp and 93ft-lbs. of torque. It's easily as powerful and faster than the DSR. I've put 5,000 miles on it now and have felt what it does in a lot of different situations. I have no concern that I will take it out tomorrow on a dry, warm day and have it spin out from underneath me. Despite that, this sort of thing seems to have with Zero R model owners. And I can't help but wonder why.
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I called Jeff at Zero and he talked me off the ledge. He said if you are functional with the FX, then being safe on the DSR+PT shouldn't be a big change.
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By far the most dangerous part on any motorcycle is the loose nut behind the handlebar.
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By far the most dangerous part on any motorcycle is the loose nut behind the handlebar.
And the cheapest part on a motorcycle is the rider!
But seriously, you could set the custom settings to 50% or whatever.
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By far the most dangerous part on any motorcycle is the loose nut behind the handlebar.
Ain't that the truth.
But seriously, you could set the custom settings to 50% or whatever.
If I was going to do that, I should save a few thousand and get the DS.
I do appreciate the custom setting, but I use it on my FX for off road stuff with 0% torque. I might not need that on the DSR though as the Eco mode seems REALLY low torque.
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You know bikes have more than 1 wheel and more than 1 way to lose traction. If you're asking this you don't belong on a motorcycle on the street.
If you ride carefully you won't ask for enough throttle to crash the bike even in full sport mode. The exception to this is if you get emotional, like pissed off. Then you will grab throttle and if you don't have the skills to handle what comes your crash will start in milliseconds.
The solution is be very careful about managing your emotions and responses to irritating shit on the street. Oh and maybe practice basic bike competency drills in a parking lot: figure 8s, circles, emergency braking, etc. Yeah, that might be a good idea....
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I have fishtailed a 2013 DS in wet/muddy conditions. No emotional excursion is required to break traction on a Zero if the surface conditions are slippery enough.
I've never gone down from the issue, but the wheel can spin up quickly if you're not too observant. Once you're accustomed to how this happens, it's very easy to avoid and handle, particularly because the bike has no other operator mindfulness issues with power delivery, like shifting or stalling.
And there is absolutely no parking lot practice I'm aware of even in advanced road courses that will prepare you for what a Zero will do.
In summary, this is both a valid concern for a rider at any experience level, and also not a big deal to handle with practice. I feel safer on my DSR than on my V-Strom.
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You know bikes have more than 1 wheel and more than 1 way to lose traction. If you're asking this you don't belong on a motorcycle on the street.
lol, wut?
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I have fishtailed a 2013 DS in wet/muddy conditions.
Yes, I can make my FX dance all over the place off pavement.
I feel safer on my DSR than on my V-Strom.
That's good to hear.
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Before I changed out the stock tires I had the rear ended step out on me three times.
The first time was on my way home from picking it up & the last time I managed to pulled a muscle or two but I kept it under control all three times.
When the original/ stock tires were toast, I changed them for rounder profiled ones.
I ceased having issues so either I learned to moterate my right wrist &/or the new rear tire helped.
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I do wonder if the stock tires play into it some. What tires did you go with?
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First change was
(F) Continental (TKC 70)
(R) Shinko (TrailMaster)
(It made me feel better having a
perceived less “cheesy†front)
Second (or 3rd??) change (presently installed)
are Pirelli Scorpions (less dirt/more street oriented).
I’m a bit disappointed that the rears made in China.
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Spent the past 2 winters commuting on my DSR through Seattle's dark, hilly, slick streets. Never had a problem, but it's certainly not because I'm some kind of highly-skilled rider.
Just take it easy, give yourself time to adjust from the ICE's characteristics, ride in a mindful way, and be judicious with the right hand.
After playing with the modes for the first 1,000mi, the DSR has never left Custom mode for the last 5,000mi despite road conditions.
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What's your custom mode settings?
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I do wonder if the stock tires play into it some. What tires did you go with?
I have bridgestone battlax a41 on mine, and it made a huge difference in traction and cornering. They are more street oriented as well.
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First change was
(F) Continental (TKC 70)
(R) Shinko (TrailMaster)
(It made me feel better having a
perceived less “cheesy†front)
Second (or 3rd??) change (presently installed)
are Pirelli Scorpions (less dirt/more street oriented).
I’m a bit disappointed that the rears made in China.
Which of those did you like the best? I've got the Michelin Anakee Adventure tires on my VFR1200X and digging them.
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The DSR is a great bike and if you've managed to get your hands on one, consider yourself very lucky!.:-)
My top tip is to never snap the throttle wide open and use eco mode in the wet. As others have suggested. Use your noggle and you'll be fine.
TC is a nice safety feature to have if you ever hit diesel in the dark, but many thousands of riders have managed without it on powerful bikes for decades.
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Yeah, apparently I got the last one. Not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing.
The more I learn about these bikes the more I realize the current R models are similar in performance to a 650 naked bike. And I suspect there are plenty of people riding around out there on 650 naked bikes without traction control just fine.
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First change was
(F) Continental (TKC 70)
(R) Shinko (TrailMaster)
(It made me feel better having a
perceived less “cheesy†front)
Second (or 3rd??) change (presently installed)
are Pirelli Scorpions (less dirt/more street oriented).
I’m a bit disappointed that the rears made in China.
Which of those did you like the best? I've got the Michelin Anakee Adventure tires on my VFR1200X and digging them.
For now I’m sticking with 90/10 tires so unless I find a different offering I’ll spoon on another set of Pirelli’s in a few months/thousands miles.
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Just got word my dealer is finishing up prep on my DSR. Hope to go pick it up tonight or tomorrow morning. Trying to talk someone into dropping me off so I can ride it 52 miles home, but might have to take the trailer.
For both my FX and DSR, it seems I was able to pick them up almost exactly 3.5 weeks from the day I put my deposit down. Seems reasonable for a built to order bike.
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If you're afraid of losing traction you need to PRACTICE losing traction so that it's no longer scary, unknown territory.
Start on dirt, gravel, or smooth concrete like a parking garage or warehouse. Get used to locking up the rear brake and sliding the bike around more and more as you come to a stop. Get used to breaking the rear wheel free with bursts of power. You'll gradually get more of an understanding how the traction actually works. It will no longer be a mystery and a Zero DSR of all things will no longer be DANGEROUS to you.
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What's your custom mode settings?
Speed, Torque, and Brake Regen at 100%, Max Regen @60%.
It would be interesting to find out if the average long-term rider continues to play with the modes based on road conditions or ends up sticking with one setting so that the bike's behavior is no longer a changing variable.
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What's your custom mode settings?
Speed, Torque, and Brake Regen at 100%, Max Regen @60%.
It would be interesting to find out if the average long-term rider continues to play with the settings based on road conditions or ends up sticking with one setting so that the bike's behavior is no longer a changing variable.
I stick with my custom setting and never use anything else. I just feel comfortable coasting with the throttle shut.
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What's your custom mode settings?
Speed, Torque, and Brake Regen at 100%, Max Regen @60%.
It would be interesting to find out if the average long-term rider continues to play with the settings based on road conditions or ends up sticking with one setting so that the bike's behavior is no longer a changing variable.
I stick with my custom setting and never use anything else. I just feel comfortable coasting with the throttle shut.
Same here. Coasting gives the best range too, in most circumstances.
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I'm only 160 miles in, but I'm scratching my head a bit on the reported traction control issue on this bike.
I've literally tried multiple times to get the rear tire to break free and haven't been successful. The demo bike I rode felt the same way. Not sure if its just because I'm heavier, I'm weighting that rear wheel more or what, but so far, its not going anywhere.
What are the scenarios I need to watch for where the rear tire might slip on a DSR? Is it just wet road and paint?
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I'm only 160 miles in, but I'm scratching my head a bit on the reported traction control issue on this bike.
I've literally tried multiple times to get the rear tire to break free and haven't been successful.
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What are the scenarios I need to watch for where the rear tire might slip on a DSR?
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In my three incidents a combination of cornering along with a heavy application of throttle.
On the last occurrence, cold tire temperature may have been a factor.
After changing tires I've not had any issues but likely I'm also smoother on the right wrist twist application.
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I'm only 160 miles in, but I'm scratching my head a bit on the reported traction control issue on this bike.
I've literally tried multiple times to get the rear tire to break free and haven't been successful. The demo bike I rode felt the same way. Not sure if its just because I'm heavier, I'm weighting that rear wheel more or what, but so far, its not going anywhere.
What are the scenarios I need to watch for where the rear tire might slip on a DSR? Is it just wet road and paint?
I weigh 230 and can spin the tire everytime I take off even with 90/10 street tires. Maybe different firmware between 2017 and 2019. I don't believe in updating my firmware if nothing is wrong.
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Hmm, maybe they softened up the torque in 2019. I could stand to use a bit more.
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In my three incidents a combination of cornering along with a heavy application of throttle.
At what speeds? Was it in that 0-30 mph range? Or faster than that?
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Hmm, maybe they softened up the torque in 2019. I could stand to use a bit more.
Have you tried custom mode yet? With 100% torque setting? It would be interesting to know if that makes a difference.
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I think so. It felt softer than Sport mode.
I need to double check it via the app though and make sure the settings were accurate.
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FWIW, my 2016 DSR only experiences the rear wheel breaking free and spinning up in cases of high surface oil on roads, or wet and loose gravel, or just mud.
And my rider training has minimized that certainly. But when I first encountered it, it was in those less than ideal conditions. I think perhaps a factor is riders being in different areas of the country where slick but dry roads are less visibly predictable.
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FWIW, my 2016 DSR only experiences the rear wheel breaking free and spinning up in cases of high surface oil on roads, or wet and loose gravel, or just mud.
And my rider training has minimized that certainly. But when I first encountered it, it was in those less than ideal conditions. I think perhaps a factor is riders being in different areas of the country where slick but dry roads are less visibly predictable.
That's strange! I consider myself lucky than being able to break loose even from a rolling start whenever I want too.
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FWIW, my 2016 DSR only experiences the rear wheel breaking free and spinning up in cases of high surface oil on roads, or wet and loose gravel, or just mud.
This is what I'm experiencing as well. If there is a little gravel on the road, I can blip the throttle and get it to break loose at will. On a dirt road, I've got to be really careful in Sport mode as it spins constantly. I typically switch to Eco mode there so far.
Side point, my DSR's Eco mode has less acceleration from a stop than my FX does with the torque set to 0%. I find that odd.
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Jarret, I noticed on your other thread you weigh 270 pounds. That along with the powertank, your total weight is 85 pounds more than mine, so that is probably the biggest factor why you can't spin that rear tire like I can.
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Built in traction control :)
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Side point, my DSR's Eco mode has less acceleration from a stop than my FX does with the torque set to 0%. I find that odd.
My Zero DS 6.5 feels very fast in the eco mode. MUCH faster than my SR (with Pwr Tank) when in the eco mode. Very noticeable difference.
Not sure why, but I assume it's not only the difference in weight. Too large of a difference. I think perhaps the SR is detuned a bit in eco mode to try for a better range spec.
But when they are both in the Sport Mode, that all reverses. Then the SR is has a lot more acceleration than my DS.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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I was talking to Jeff @ Zero once and he mentioned in passing that the DSR Eco mode was one of the most tame settings on any of the bikes. I didn't ask why, I should have.
Maybe its the same on the SR as well. I find the Eco mode on the DSR fairly useless on the pavement, but it was nice to have off road as I just like to creep along mostly. No worries about slipping the rear tire in anything, it seemed. Having not grown up riding dirt bikes, I'm not much into roosting anyway.
The ability to dial the torque back on Zero bikes is pretty slick, imo. That's another feature (possibly over looked) that is a key difference between them and ICE bikes, I think. For example, my daughter's NC700X only makes like 50hp and 45 ft-lbs. of torque or something, but even with 50/50 tires, you can easily spin the rear wheel of that bike going slowly through a corner off road. And the NC700X doesn't have traction control either, so its on you to keep it upright in the dirt.
But even with 116 ft-lbs of tire ripping torque available on the DSR, I can put it in Eco mode and deal with less dirt tire spinning than with the 45 ft-lbs of torque NC700X, because of the tame torque curve and linear throttle response. Pretty slick, I think. Kind of gives you the "two bikes" feel that I was mentioning earlier. If the DSR only had one mode being Sport and no traction control, I'd never take it off road. It would be too much of a handful for me to want to deal with.
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In my three incidents a combination of cornering along with a heavy application of throttle.
At what speeds? Was it in that 0-30 mph range? Or faster than that?
I would have to guess at this point as it was too long ago to recall with accuracy.
I’m guessing +-30 twice & once +30.
Thinking about it a bit, road paint may have been a factor once or twice.
Also perhaps Zero made some changes to the throttle characteristics.
For what it’s worth, I’m about 210# suited up & don’t have any options in the tank (extra battery or charger).
Also I sit up to the tank so perhaps height on the rear is also a factor.
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I FINALLY got the rear tire to break free last night. I was going through my back roads and coming out of a corner was a runoff spot where the road was wet and dirty. I was in Sport mode and gave it a little juice and the back tire went left. Completely predictable and controllable. Just glad to see the bike has enough power to do that.