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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Manzanita on March 16, 2017, 06:45:02 AM
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So I have a 2014 Zero S with power tank and my on-board charger has failed. The dealer service dept (Elk Grove Powersports) is saying to replace it out of warranty is about $800 for the charger and about $400 labor = $1200 total. I just gave them a verbal go-ahead today and they will order the charger, but what are my other options?
Calex will not directly sell the on-board charger to Zero owners and told me to contact Zero, who told me to bring it to an authorized dealer. I suppose I could order the charger through the dealer and install it myself to save $400. But could I also just install some sort of aftermarket charger (off-board or add-on) instead of the on-board charger? Or do the higher power off-board chargers depend on the on-board charger being there as well?
What about non-OEM replacement of the on-board charger with something of the same specs (assuming it would be cheaper on ebay or online)... has that been done? Is that possible?
Thanks,
-Alan
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There's a sketch of a replacement procedure on the wiki (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger)) but no answers on using a different model. The 2013's 2s2p Meanwell arrangement is probably acceptable, but you'd have to work out how to get the charger and BMS to cooperate, which is as much about programming as wires and signaling.
The onboard charger is in a privileged position to enable the BMS to enter charging mode without requiring the contactor to be closed ahead of time. How this works is probably about CANbus programming, but I don't know more than that.
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You're welcome to try my SCv2 on it if you want to, we can pull it off my bike and see if it charges yours. I'm in Truckee CA approximately... I think what has been said means you would need to turn the ignition to "ON" and then connect the charging inputs, after which you could turn off the key and charging will continue.
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@Shadow, thanks for the offer... from what Brian is saying it sounds like the onboard charger is necessary for external charging to work, right?
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@Shadow, thanks for the offer... from what Brian is saying it sounds like the onboard charger is necessary for external charging to work, right?
It's not, as long as you're willing and able to key the bike on and get the contactor to shut every time you want to charge.
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Shouldn't the external charger be able to throttle down to something way under 1A current at the end of the charge to allow the BMS to equalize? Can the SC do that?
@Shadow, thanks for the offer... from what Brian is saying it sounds like the onboard charger is necessary for external charging to work, right?
It's not, as long as you're willing and able to key the bike on and get the contactor to shut every time you want to charge.
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Any charger should taper current down, because the maximum full charge is around 116 volts. Once that voltage is reached, a LiPo charger *should* decrease current to keep the voltage at that maximum level, so at 100% SOC the charger would essentially stop charging... So any charger capable of constant current/constant voltage should suffice.
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Keyword, "should". Superchargers for the Zero are not necessarily designed to do that, as in the general case they are intended to work in tandem with the on-board charger and could potentially disconnect themselves before the max voltage of the stock chargger is reached. My question was to clarify the SC behavior in this regards.
Does the SC behave like a "proper" CC/CV charger for the Zero that is programmed to the correct max voltage (or to a lower limit and lets the stock charger finish things up)? And, if it is programmed to the max voltage for the Zero, will it give the BMS the necessary time? Vs. are there time-limits, which could conceivably kick-in before the BMS finishes equalization?
Any charger should taper current down, because the maximum full charge is around 116 volts. Once that voltage is reached, a LiPo charger *should* decrease current to keep the voltage at that maximum level, so at 100% SOC the charger would essentially stop charging... So any charger capable of constant current/constant voltage should suffice.
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Its just a CC/CV power supply.
There is no special "taper down", of current as its just a byproduct of the voltage difference between the charger output and the batteries state of charge.
If the current is too high out of the charger, the charger lowers its voltage until its at the current limit.
so it appears constant... the voltage slowly rises until it can hit the output voltage.
then the current gets lower simply because the voltage difference is lower.
any CC/CV power supply will do the same thing, its not a special curve.
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Maybe I'm not asking the question right... What is the CV limit on the SC? Is it the same voltage as that of the stock charger?
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Maybe I'm not asking the question right... What is the CV limit on the SC? Is it the same voltage as that of the stock charger?
Yes. All chargers produced as products for the Zero platform are programmed with the same compatible CV setting.
I did remember/realize, though, that cel balancing is performed at the direction of the BMS specifically through the onboard charger signaling interface.
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I did remember/realize, though, that cel balancing is performed at the direction of the BMS specifically through the onboard charger signaling interface.
So does this mean if you run an external charger only, cell balancing is not done? What is the impact of this?
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Maybe I'm not asking the question right... What is the CV limit on the SC? Is it the same voltage as that of the stock charger?
Yes. All chargers produced as products for the Zero platform are programmed with the same compatible CV setting.
I did remember/realize, though, that cel balancing is performed at the direction of the BMS specifically through the onboard charger signaling interface.
I guess only the onboard-charger does the balancing ...
That's why charging the fx/s-modules only with the delta-Q isnt the best of the lifetime for the powerpack. Also the chargetank for the D/S/R doesnt this job.
May we start a poll how many fx/s-user only charge with the delta-Q and how their powerpack goes?
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I did remember/realize, though, that cel balancing is performed at the direction of the BMS specifically through the onboard charger signaling interface.
So does this mean if you run an external charger only, cell balancing is not done? What is the impact of this?
The identity and behavior of the charger itself does not seem to be relevant to cell balancing, but the BMS performs the balancing itself by applying currents to the interconnects that go into the battery at every point in the cell series stack, so this really means that whatever charger is used to perform this has to go through the bike's onboard charger interface.
Your pack capacity will degrade eventually without regular cell balancing. Presumably, regular charging at slow rates does some normalization, but it won't be ideal. I have no idea what the degradation rate might be like, but we've seen stories of riders with bikes cutting back power early, particularly with the 2014 cells which are somehow more vulnerable to cells discharging unevenly (probably by cell construction which seems to be the major change over the last few years from Farasis).
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Okay, so here is another question: these charger failures are somewhat common, what is the failure mode, does anyone know? Could it be something I could repair on my own?
Maybe step one is to pull out the failed charger and crack it open and see if the failure mode is obvious.
Many many years ago I worked as an electronics technician... it took a PM from a member asking if I'd sell the broken charger to prod me into considering the possibility it could be fixed. I mean it could be failed diodes or rectifier, or other things that could be easily fixed, I suppose.
Considering the long-term degradation without cell balancing (using just an external charger) maybe that should be my first move.
Thank you all for your input, it has been a huge help!
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The identity and behavior of the charger itself does not seem to be relevant to cell balancing, but the BMS performs the balancing itself by applying currents to the interconnects that go into the battery at every point in the cell series stack, so this really means that whatever charger is used to perform this has to go through the bike's onboard charger interface.
Brian, re-reading this, I am confused... "the charger itself does not seem to be relevant to cell balancing" ... but "whatever charger is used to perform this has to go through the bike's onboard charger interface"... so you're not sure whether an external charger can also do cell balancing?
I am still considering buying the external Elcon... so an external charger should be okay, probably? maybe? Or just no.
I guess if no one is sure I should probably hold off on buying an external charger and fix or replace my onboard charger. No sense damaging my batteries because I am so damn cheap! ;D
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I did remember/realize, though, that cel balancing is performed at the direction of the BMS specifically through the onboard charger signaling interface.
So does this mean if you run an external charger only, cell balancing is not done? What is the impact of this?
The identity and behavior of the charger itself does not seem to be relevant to cell balancing, but the BMS performs the balancing itself by applying currents to the interconnects that go into the battery at every point in the cell series stack, so this really means that whatever charger is used to perform this has to go through the bike's onboard charger interface.
Your pack capacity will degrade eventually without regular cell balancing. Presumably, regular charging at slow rates does some normalization, but it won't be ideal. I have no idea what the degradation rate might be like, but we've seen stories of riders with bikes cutting back power early, particularly with the 2014 cells which are somehow more vulnerable to cells discharging unevenly (probably by cell construction which seems to be the major change over the last few years from Farasis).
Will the onboard's charger interface still work if that part of the onboard is not what failed, e.g, the charging portion failed not the electronics? Also, I recall reading how folks removed the onboards totally after they failed. What's up with that? Also, what does this statement in an aftermarket charger's description mean? " Ability to select 10 different Amp Hour or Cell Count settings. Equipped with CAN communication interface to realize real-time communication with BMS."
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Does there exist any way to know when BMS balancing is in progress or has been completed recently:
With a bluetooth data connection?
With an ODB dongle?
On visual inspection of the ZF pack window lights?
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The SCv2 does taper off for full charge and cell balancing. It's designed to work with the zero ;)
Also, if you are not using the onboard, as was mentioned just start charging with the bike on and once the green charging light flashes you can turn the bike off and take your key with you while you go about your business.
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I thought I saw that after a while the contactor will disengage if the onboard charger isn't in use.
Is that not the case?
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I though I saw that after a while the contactor will disengage if the onboard charger isn't in use.
Is that not the case?
I thought the same. Or do you archive this behaviour using the additional pin on the aux charging port?
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I though I saw that after a while the contactor will disengage if the onboard charger isn't in use.
Is that not the case?
I thought the same. Or do you achieve this behavior using the additional pin on the aux charging port?
The Charge Tank, Supercharger, and Quiq Chargers all use the accessory charging port signal pins to keep the bike in charging mode after keyed off.
But their presence won't trigger the BMS to enter charging mode from scratch.
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Looking at the new diginow chargers, they are so small it begs the question that could one of these be streached out (like rolling dough with a rolling pin) to fit in the place of the onboard charger? Having 3.3 kw/h charger always with you would be fantastic. The current power plug if in use could signal the charger to only produce 1.3 kw/h for 110V and 2.5 (or what ever) for 240V. Then a J1772 plug would give you the full 3.3kw/h.
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Zero has decided to pay for my failed charger despite the bike being over 1 year out-of-warranty! Yay! ;D ;D ;D
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Looking at the new diginow chargers, they are so small it begs the question that could one of these be streached out (like rolling dough with a rolling pin) to fit in the place of the onboard charger? Having 3.3 kw/h charger always with you would be fantastic. The current power plug if in use could signal the charger to only produce 1.3 kw/h for 110V and 2.5 (or what ever) for 240V. Then a J1772 plug would give you the full 3.3kw/h.
This has been discussed. The charger can be programmed to deal with CANbus messages like the Calex.
The depth of the charger does exceed the belly pan, though. Not by much, but it's something.
I'm more inclined to try that BMW boxer hack with them. Given enough waterproofing around the cable inlets.
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Looking at the new diginow chargers, they are so small it begs the question that could one of these be streached out (like rolling dough with a rolling pin) to fit in the place of the onboard charger? Having 3.3 kw/h charger always with you would be fantastic. The current power plug if in use could signal the charger to only produce 1.3 kw/h for 110V and 2.5 (or what ever) for 240V. Then a J1772 plug would give you the full 3.3kw/h.
Why not both? ;D If you can install it in tank area you will actually have 4.6 kW always with you and you're can pick and choose between 1.3 kW (onboard only) / ~2.6 kW (onboard + SCv2 plugged into separate 110V circuit) / 4.7 kW (J1772 engaging both or any of the RV adapters available). Weight is barely noticeable. Of course this only work if you don't mind using your tank area for this kind of setup, but after using this for a while, it makes a night and day kind of difference.
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Looking at the new diginow chargers, they are so small it begs the question that could one of these be streached out (like rolling dough with a rolling pin) to fit in the place of the onboard charger? Having 3.3 kw/h charger always with you would be fantastic. The current power plug if in use could signal the charger to only produce 1.3 kw/h for 110V and 2.5 (or what ever) for 240V. Then a J1772 plug would give you the full 3.3kw/h.
Why not both? ;D If you can install it in tank area you will actually have 4.6 kW always with you and you're can pick and choose between 1.3 kW (onboard only) / ~2.6 kW (onboard + SCv2 plugged into separate 110V circuit) / 4.7 kW (J1772 engaging both or any of the RV adapters available). Weight is barely noticeable. Of course this only work if you don't mind using your tank area for this kind of setup, but after using this for a while, it makes a night and day kind of difference.
Both would be preferable for now, but the SCv2 AKA Elcon UHF 3.3 is lighter than the onboard charger. The only question is reliability which might be a toss up, but at least Calex/GWP is "the devil you know" and warranty-supported.
I have to admit, this new Elcon charger looks really well designed and incorporates a lot of quality lessons. It's hard to say for sure without lots of hours in the field on Zeros and forklifts, though...
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Looking at the new diginow chargers, they are so small it begs the question that could one of these be streached out (like rolling dough with a rolling pin) to fit in the place of the onboard charger? Having 3.3 kw/h charger always with you would be fantastic. The current power plug if in use could signal the charger to only produce 1.3 kw/h for 110V and 2.5 (or what ever) for 240V. Then a J1772 plug would give you the full 3.3kw/h.
Why not both? ;D If you can install it in tank area you will actually have 4.6 kW always with you and you're can pick and choose between 1.3 kW (onboard only) / ~2.6 kW (onboard + SCv2 plugged into separate 110V circuit) / 4.7 kW (J1772 engaging both or any of the RV adapters available). Weight is barely noticeable. Of course this only work if you don't mind using your tank area for this kind of setup, but after using this for a while, it makes a night and day kind of difference.
No, don't want to give up my tank space, I love the fact that it is storage space.
My comment was more to Zero to talk to Elkon (or whatever there name is) about producing the charger in the different form factor.
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Once the 1C tank mounting bracket is being machined, I will begin designing the belly mount. I already have ideas on this, but it may take a bit as there will be some significant software involved.
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