ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: woke on May 13, 2015, 04:01:21 AM
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In my exasperation with Zero refusing to cover the cost of my motor replacement under warranty, I had a look at the definition of a safety defect here in the UK:
"A safety related defect is a failure due to design and/or construction, which is likely to affect the safe operation of the product without prior warning to the user and may pose a significant risk to the driver, occupants and others. This defect will be common to a number of products that have been sold for use in the United Kingdom"
While Zero has never offered an explanation to me of what caused the glitch, in my opinion the design of the motor meets this definition. What is unclear is what percentage of motors are affected by the glitch, and how many other than me are affected by this problem (especially here in the UK). While it appears that most motor replacements (with the exception of my own) have so far be covered under warranty, I wouldn't be surprised if more of us have to pay for these replacements now that the warranty periods have expired and the motors continue to age.
The UK standards agency has so far rejected my submission for a recall because DVSA "do not have similar reports of motor failure affecting those or other machines." That being said, please let me and DVSA know if the glitch continue to be an occasional problem for you in the UK.
I'm not sure if anyone in other jurisdictions have considered this approach.
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why should they have to wait for reports of faults when it is obvious from resources like this site for instance? its disgraceful that they are choosing to turn a blind eye to it and impose a barrier to the resolution of this problem. Why should the onus be on owners to ferret out the details of this agency and report it to them they should be more proactive.
maybe suggest that they should audit the files of the UK warranty service company?
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It's frustrating that Zero seem to be letting a relatively small number of failures tarnish the reputation of the company. I give them full credit for fixing my bike, which I had hoped marked a turning point with these issues. Service is everything, and the lack of willingness to own and deal with these problems will inevitably impact on confidence in the future. That saddens me.
It already seems there are question marks over waterproofing on current models. If I invested in a new model, can I be sure I'll receive the service from Zero that one would expect?
With big players now entering the market, Zero must differentiate themselves not just with great technology, but with great service that engenders brand loyalty.
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This is a very well observed summary of the situation and many owners share your frustration however this has been the way Zero have always been unfortunately as they have consistently abandoned the loyal customers who have bought and supported their brand in favour of the something "newer and better". They do not understand the concept of customer advocates or customer satisfaction, and feedback and complaints are unheeded and fall on deaf ears as they consistently abandon their earlier customers in favour of the next one. Once they have taken your money and you are out of warranty then they are not interested and this has been the way since 2009.
I think this stems from the fact that they are not a commercial company in the sense that they do not make a profit or strive to make one because they are funded by investors and loans from the government. Any proper company would be acutely aware of the fact that they needed to bend over backwards to keep current customers happy and generate goodwill from past customers who might upgrade and be another future customer, but they simply fail to understand this because they do not have to make a profit. You will never be able to change the core philosophy or consequential actions of a company who is insulated from financial failure.
Many may remember the early Zero S models that they promised could be simply upgraded by fitting the latest motor or battery pack allowing customer to have a truly green product that they could endlessly update as technology improved. This never happened and all these promises were nonsense.
As we can see here the technology is not "great" at all as they can't even work out how to cool their motors yet after 6 years of production!
I expect the company to be sold to a major player looking to enter the market soon just like Brammo. When Bultaco start producing the Rapitan this will wipe the floor with the Zero on price and spec and if they manage to offer decent after sales too then they will be ahead of Zero on every level in one fell swoop. Game over.
Zero have existed in a market vacuum for too long and all it will take is for a credible alternative to come along and it will be all over when people find another company who will value their customers and dealers past and present and not treat them like something stuck to the bottom of their shoe.
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I agree. I think the "end game" for the current Zero investors is to eventually sell out for big bucks to a major motorcycle company, who doesn't want to spend years and millions of dollars in research to develop their own line of electric motorcycles, and then move on to other endeavors. All they need to do is to wait long enough for the market and/or political events to make the big players interested in the technology and making a quick jump into the EV world. ::)
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LOL!!!!
Zap mc. You seem to be one negative nancy; yes zero has had issues but find an electrical motorcycle company that hasn't, sure seems like Brammo is turning into everyone's golden child, get real they sold a couple hundred bikes couldn't even sell all their "fire sale" bikes for almost 50% off! You think if zero offered bikes at 50% off there would be any left!? Hell no!!!
Now as most of the people are in here are "early adopters" I have heard through the grapevine when I was there that they might have something truly amazing for all of us that might be interested!
One thing people fail to realize is that they run through so many people for instance "moto Ryder" (if you read this, they finally put some of your method, and ideas to work there!!! Maybe the future is bright) worked there for not enough time but he has been on here trying to help, unfortunately zeros business model changes every few years and the priority goes from making a new prototype, to producing bikes, and maybe now we have finally reached back all the way to customer service which has always been somewhat of a small part of their business.. There was a point early on where they royally helped some of the early adopters and many of those people stayed loyal to the brand, you never hear these stories! The new customer service group really seems insterested is solving issues that had gone looked over. Zero has also had some interesting policy's in place regarding warrantee issues this and that, that frankly now seem like they are clearing up. This is what happens when a motorcycle company is owned by a headgefund, the priorities get all out of whack because the investment fund only wants to see production rates and quality to go with them. If you are on the board of directors of Invus you really think you have even heard of zero customer service, no they just assume it works, they don't check. You are more worried about making so many bikes and that they all arrive working properly. That's what makes profitablity rather than worring if that pice of shit 2010 still works and then having to spend thousands to get let's face it a outdated bike back running. It's just not profitable, it would be easier to take all the older bikes back and put early investors on a 2013 and up, something that is uniform easy to work on and won't go outdated to fast!
You also have to look at many of the new dealers won't touch the old bikes, this makes it very hard to fix them, if you can't get someone reliable on the other end toying with the bike you have issues like some have had in here. There are only a handful of people that know how to properly build a entire 2012 bike from the battery to final assembly. If everyone was on a 13 or newer bike the issues and time to resolve the issues would drastically drop! This would also make it Possiable for dealers to work on bikes rather than trying to middle man help from the manufactures had full of people who work on the line through the customer service tecnition then to the end user or dealer, it's like playing that wonderful game telephone tag, no instructions come out the same on the other end!
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Perhaps I am one of those that they did help and yes I do remain loyal. But that doesn't preclude offering constructive criticism with a view to helping the company do better. That also makes sense from the more cynical 'what's in it for the investors' perspective, as it adds value to the dollar value of the company. However you look at it, smarter companies realise that service is key.
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However you look at it, smarter companies realise that service is key.
. Spot on Mike!
Cortez, Just how big is the pool of " first adopters" that Zero can survive on them for 6 years? The bike should have transitioned from a novelty to a reliable commuter by now surely?
If you did the sums you would surely realise that Zero is and has been a massive loss making company from day one who are more interested in hiring new Chiefs than fixing the legacy of their mechanical and electrical misdemeanours. How good would their reputation be if they gave new bikes to all those dissatisfied customers rather than giving them an opportunity to tarnish Zero's reputation still further? I am not negative but rather realistic. It's not about whether or not you have issues, it is your attitude and willingness to sort the problem out that counts. This is why Rolls Royce is a world renowned brand because of their attitudes to fixing issues when things go wrong. If you translated this type of sloppy attitude to the car market the brand would be dead and buried in no time, it's only the fact that there are no real competitors that has kept them going. However that may be about to change, who knows.
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I read ALL of your posts before I decided you were a negative nancy :P
I have many same believes as you as far as the company goes; maybe they will surprise you in the next few months!
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I read ALL of your posts before I decided you were a negative nancy :P
I have many same believes as you as far as the company goes; maybe they will surprise you in the next few months!
I think there are a bigger group of people than you think that they royally helped out. I know a few of them are in here, how many bikes have you had zap? Zeros?
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It's all relative, zap. You have to keep in mind who Zero is -- a tiny startup, still, with very few resources to even keep the doors open, let alone expand and improve their brand. Sure, Tesla's even younger and has an absolutely sterling reputation, but they're bankrolled by multiple billions of dollars in resources.
Zero's expanding exponentially, their product and service have improved markedly every single year, and they're still around and relatively healthy as an independent brand, unlike many others that have already dropped by the wayside. They ain't Tesla, they ain't Ford or GM, they ain't ANYBODY yet. But they're keeping everything moving in the right direction, which is a remarkable achievement in its own right, and if it isn't fast enough to satisfy you, don't buy yet. It's that simple.
Early product adoption ain't for sissies.
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I read ALL of your posts before I decided you were a negative nancy :P
I have many same believes as you as far as the company goes; maybe they will surprise you in the next few months!
I think there are a bigger group of people than you think that they royally helped out. I know a few of them are in here, how many bikes have you had zap? Zeros?
I sincerely hope they do for the good of the industry that I strongly support, but then again I have been hoping against hope for years now and nothing has changed so far and there is no indication that it will from where I am sitting. If they can't sort out bikes with inherent faults they sold in 2012 nearly 3 years later then what hope is there? The residual price and reputation of a brand is important to the future of that brand but this unfortunately seems to be overlooked.
I have had about 20 or so Zero's.
Zero have been bankrolled to the tune of millions of dollars from private funding and the state so they are not that "tiny" but these things are relative I guess. Give most people on this forum $2M and I think they could do a better job. I don't think Zero are expanding and the sales are pretty static, dealers and territories are closing and they never divulge actual figures so it's hard to tell.
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The residual price and reputation of a brand is important to the future of that brand but this unfortunately seems to be overlooked.
How is Zero supposed to do anything about the price of their machines in the secondary market? That's beyond their control, and I consider it a sign of how far and how fast they're advancing -- I wouldn't have even considered buying a used Zero, myself. The 2014 that I bought new was so far advanced beyond their previous product that no amount of savings would have made it worth buying a used bike to me.
I have had about 20 or so Zero's.
Wow, 20? Why so many? I've had one for fourteen months now.
Zero have been bankrolled to the tune of millions of dollars from private funding and the state so they are not that "tiny" but these things are relative I guess. Give most people on this forum $2M and I think they could do a better job.
Not even close. Two million dollars isn't even seed money for a vehicle company. John DeLorean burned through nearly (or maybe more than) half a billion dollars in trying to start one. He barely managed to push a few prototypes out the door before going bankrupt.
I don't think Zero are expanding and the sales are pretty static, dealers and territories are closing and they never divulge actual figures so it's hard to tell.
I do wish they'd publish more details about their operation, but they're not obligated to do so since they're still privately held. But their numbers are sufficient now that Bosch, Showa and Pirelli are doing OEM business with them. If they're not growing like a weed, how did they get big-boy companies like that to work with them?
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Doug, after sales service has a huge impact on residual value because nobody wants an out of warranty vehicle they can't easily get parts and servicing for.
Take a look at the way 6 month old Saab plummeted in value as soon as the factory closed.
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The residual price of a vehicle is dependant on how much the next buyer is prepare to pay and a major factor in that excercise is if they do buy it, will it go wrong and be a pile of junk and if it does go wrong will someone be able to fix it and how easy will that be? This is why people buy aftermarket warranties for used vehicles. If there is bouyant demand for used machines then people will be able to easily sell and upgrade them which perpetuates the whole sales process. If the used buyer perceives the bike a unreliable junk then it is unsaleable and the sales process stalls. So yes the manufacturer is directly responsible for the residual value by contributing to the quality of the product in the first place and supporting it in terms of parts and service during its lifetime.
Give me $2M and I could easily produce a bike to rival Zero and so could a lot of people on this forum.
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They had the oppertunity to replace the old 2012 motors with the latest gen, Think of the good will and long term reliability of Zero Brand. This one time fix for those models would have ended the glitch saga and prove Zero long term commitmant.
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Agreed.
That is what a respectable/responsible company would do...you screw up, you fix it...that simple
I do not blame Zero for making mistakes -every manufacturer do- I do blame them for the way the manage them...and it looks like they are crossing their fingers, so all the 2012 units are out of warranty -which is the case- or expecting the motors not to fail.
Look at BMW and the problem Richard mentioned in a different post...they are making a recall for 300.000 bikes! Bad manufacturer? nope, they assume their responsibility when they have to...
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Agreed.
That is what a respectable/responsible company would do...you screw up, you fix it...that simple
I do not blame Zero for making mistakes -every manufacturer do- I do blame then for the way the manage them...and it looks like they are crossing their fingers, so all the 2012 units are out of warranty -which is the case- or expecting the motors not to fail.
Look at BMW and the problem Richard mentioned in a different post...they are making a recall for 300.000 bikes! Bad manufacturer? nope, they assume their responsibility when they have to...
I get my new BMW wheel flange tomorrow. The shop is performing 5 flange replacements a day. All of the required parts are in their inventory and the work takes between 1.5 and 2.5 hours, depending upon what they find when the wheel is removed. Even though my R12R is well out of warranty, BMW picks up all of the costs for this work. :)
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In Australia we have statutory warranty also, it basically means the more you spend the more you expect quality and item to last.
for example $1000 phone is expected to more reliably and quality than a $100 phone, even if both have 1 year warranty.
In above case you could still claim warranty repairs after 1 year expires on the $1000 phone but not the $100 phone.
This is usually the case with Apple they only state 1 year and push that no warranty after that, but as soon as you mention statutory warranty it is then 2 years.
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All the 2012 owners should claim for a 2012 motor replacement/factory recall...it is a question of time, one after another one will fail...
In my case it has not happened yet, but I see it coming.
It is a shame this is a difficult task, but we should definitely do it!!
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Just to back the point about how Zero Are funded, the article here,
http://dailysignal.com/2015/06/02/new-report-on-export-import-bank-finds-problems-with-transparency-cronyism/ (http://dailysignal.com/2015/06/02/new-report-on-export-import-bank-finds-problems-with-transparency-cronyism/)
Reports that they have received millions of dollars from yet another U.S. Government pot as well.
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Why are some people so vociferous about the amount of government money being used to support the EV community, and completely silent about the (literally TRILLIONS) of dollars being handed to the fossil fuel industries? How about farm subsidies and home mortgages, why is so much money being boondoggled to people and nobody complains about that?
The government creates subsidies and/or tax credits to support things they deem worthy of supporting, period. Most people agree that home ownership and EVs are two things that should be encouraged, and that's why they've got credits and subsidies. You may personally disagree, but you'd be in the minority if you do. I personally think we should only be giving out farm subsidies to small independents, not the giant corporations, and don't get me started about the tax credits the fossil fuel industries receive!
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Why are some people so vociferous about the amount of government money being used to support the EV community, and completely silent about the (literally TRILLIONS) of dollars being handed to the fossil fuel industries? How about farm subsidies and home mortgages, why is so much money being boondoggled to people and nobody complains about that?
The government creates subsidies and/or tax credits to support things they deem worthy of supporting, period. Most people agree that home ownership and EVs are two things that should be encouraged, and that's why they've got credits and subsidies. You may personally disagree, but you'd be in the minority if you do. I personally think we should only be giving out farm subsidies to small independents, not the giant corporations, and don't get me started about the tax credits the fossil fuel industries receive!
RIGHT ON!!!
Trikester
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And just to back up my point further, Zero have just had another $3.53M from Invus
See here: http://www.octafinance.com/zero-motorcycles-3-53-million-financing-richard-walker-by-jm-lewis-attorney-in-fact-submitted-jun-23-filing/ (http://www.octafinance.com/zero-motorcycles-3-53-million-financing-richard-walker-by-jm-lewis-attorney-in-fact-submitted-jun-23-filing/)
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This article seems to have been written by a computer that has no idea what Zero Motorcycles is.
Apart from that, it is a good sign that Zero can still raise private investments.
Still enjoying my upgrade motor!
--Karl
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Getting back to the subject matter for a moment, does anyone know what if failing on the 2012 motors? Is it the encoder? I thought that old motor should have been fairly reliable, as it was an off-the-shelf item (with minor modifications) and Terry seems to have had few problems with it and he is giving his motor a harder time than most owners. :)
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12s have the worst motor they have ever made, well in my opinion. They can get water in the encoder, etc. I'm a firm believer that if you used the bike on a regular basis it will stay working for you, you let it sit, your most likely going to have issues. Sad but from what I've seen very true.... Especially with electric vehicles
Such a shame the 2013 motors can't easily slide into 12s as a easy replacement.