ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: manlytom on January 06, 2023, 08:16:08 AM
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Bringing this topic up again in the hope HD reads soem of this and factors it into their product development, or aftermarket "customising" options are emerging.
Loving the country road rides with my LW1, however, road options are limited to CCS2 fast chargers and slow overnight chargers along the way. Looking for options to upgrade the sloowww onboard charger with an adjustable AC charger allowing for slow overnight and ramping up to faster AC charging. At least 3kW but the more the better. Technically replacing the current onboard charger with a similar sized unit, replacing any fuses and some cables or so, might still fit under the tank.
Any thoughts? Anyone working on this or is HD just to hard to "customise"?
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Setec makes portable 10kw CCS chargers you can plug into a 220 volt outlet: https://www.setec-power.com/10kw-dc-fast-charger/
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Any thoughts? Anyone working on this or is HD just to hard to "customise"?
H-D cut corners on the onboard charger and used the weak 1.3kW one because it was cheap. Obviously there was room for more if they put a turbocord under the seat. I don't see any feasible way to "replace" the onboard unit because the CAN communication will freak out if you put something in there that it doesn't expect; how did you intend to communicate with the bike? Also, it's almost a sure thing that the fuses from the onboard charger are small and will pop if you tried to add more current, so that's another thing you'd have to investigate.
If you just tried to add another independent charger to bolster the onboard unit, how would you tie it into the battery then? Do you tap into the inverter?
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Any thoughts? Anyone working on this or is HD just to hard to "customise"?
H-D cut corners on the onboard charger and used the weak 1.3kW one because it was cheap. Obviously there was room for more if they put a turbocord under the seat. I don't see any feasible way to "replace" the onboard unit because the CAN communication will freak out if you put something in there that it doesn't expect; how did you intend to communicate with the bike? Also, it's almost a sure thing that the fuses from the onboard charger are small and will pop if you tried to add more current, so that's another thing you'd have to investigate.
If you just tried to add another independent charger to bolster the onboard unit, how would you tie it into the battery then? Do you tap into the inverter?
Without being able to reprogram software, it’s likely not possible?
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It may be possible for someone with a giant brain, but I don't see a way to do it.
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Setec makes portable 10kw CCS chargers you can plug into a 220 volt outlet: https://www.setec-power.com/10kw-dc-fast-charger/ (https://www.setec-power.com/10kw-dc-fast-charger/)
"Input voltage range 305-520 VAC" ?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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It may be possible for someone with a giant brain, but I don't see a way to do it.
Sayyed at Elcon owns a Livewire. He is probably the one to ask. He programmed all four of my Elcon chargers for my Zero motorcycles with no communication from the bike required. They all just turn off at 95% SOC, which is fine with me. I connected mine to the DC contacts on the motor controller on both my Zero DS and Zero SR. I wonder if the same can be done on the LW.
I use two 2.5KW Elcons on my Zero DS. I charge it at 6.3 KWs when on the road. It has the smaller battery, the 7.2 KWH.
On my Zero SR (with power tank) I use two 3.3 KW Elcons. I charge the SR at 7.9 KWs where possible. I have ways to lower it to not overload the charge station.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Setec makes portable 10kw CCS chargers you can plug into a 220 volt outlet: https://www.setec-power.com/10kw-dc-fast-charger/ (https://www.setec-power.com/10kw-dc-fast-charger/)
"Input voltage range 305-520 VAC" ?
-Don- Auburn, CA
Looks like a typo... not much use requiring 300V input is it
Cas :)
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AC power connection 3P+PE
Single Phase 220Vac (195V-250V)
I had one of these, plugged it into a NEMA 6-50. You could charge a Ribelle at 6kw
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Sayyed at Elcon owns a Livewire. He is probably the one to ask. He programmed all four of my Elcon chargers for my Zero motorcycles with no communication from the bike required. They all just turn off at 95% SOC, which is fine with me. I connected mine to the DC contacts on the motor controller on both my Zero DS and Zero SR. I wonder if the same can be done on the LW.
Hahahah no
Entirely different beast, Don. Zero was built with the option for accessory chargers. The Cypher II bikes have an Aux charge port with a 100 amp fuse. On top of that you could, without much issue, access the controller directly and just tie chargers to that.
The LiveWire has none of those things.
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Hahahah no
Entirely different beast, Don. Zero was built with the option for accessory chargers. The Cypher II bikes have an Aux charge port with a 100 amp fuse. On top of that you could, without much issue, access the controller directly and just tie chargers to that.
The LiveWire has none of those things.
Well it must have a way to get to the battery somehow, I would think. What would be required to do to charge the bike besides using the LW 1.3 KW OBC?
-Don- Reno, NV
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If you continue to not read the things I post then yes, absolutely. It should be totally simple. Have fun!
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If you continue to not read the things I post then yes, absolutely. It should be totally simple. Have fun!
I probably missed a few dozen of your messages as I do not have a LW. This is just a curiosity to me.
I assume the problem is mechanical, not electrical, with charging the LW. After all, they have that mickey-mouse 1.3 KW charger in there. What the big difference between it and other AC input chargers?
-Don- Reno, NV
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What the big difference between it and other AC input chargers?
The hurdles for increasing AC charge rate above the rated specifications given by Harley are going to be both software and hardware related.
There is no reason the electrical: HV wires, fuses and circuit board components of the AC system would be designed to carry more current than what the stock charger can provide. Parts rated to carry more current cost more money.
If you were able to upgrade/redesign all the parts to carry more amperage. The next step would to modify the software to allow communication between the bikes vehicle control unit and the new larger charger along with increasing the max current it can request.
Anything is possible but it would be a monumental project.
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Another option would be to mount a external DC fast charger (like the 10kWh Setec unit) on the bike. This could be powered by a J1772 AC charger. Then all you would need to do is plug the CCS from the Setec into the bike.
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c'mon, man, I said that in the third post of this thread
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Thanks all, solid discussion of options, bummer the LW is rather limited and locked down. We would have to wait until Harley releases some more details or need to brace reverse engineering it, changing HW and getting SW to talk...
I will investigate the Setec unit but will be a beast to carry on the bike. CCS2 plug, cable, Setec unit, AC 3 phase cable and plug... The 10kW Setec unit itself is with 420 x 330 x 161 (assuming to be cm) not to large. The plugs and cables will make it bulky.
Before I ask for a quote on the website, anyone has a rough idea on cost?
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And as a far easier option, Tesla has started to open up some of their Superchargers in Australia. They are along very scenic country rides. Therefore ideal. Anyone been charging their LW on such supercharges?
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The Setec chargers are $3600.00 here: https://www.evseadapters.com/products/portable-chademo-ccs-combo-dc-quick-charger/
Yes, the cables and how bulky they are is what will make this all hard to strap on a bike. I played with a lot of ideas to put this on a Ribelle and never came up with anything that would be practical.
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The Setec chargers are $3600.00 here: https://www.evseadapters.com/products/portable-chademo-ccs-combo-dc-quick-charger/
Yes, the cables and how bulky they are is what will make this all hard to strap on a bike. I played with a lot of ideas to put this on a Ribelle and never came up with anything that would be practical.
guess we stick with the bike as is and for now just customise the seat and so on, once warranty is expired still keen to hack it.... In any case, loving the LW and hoping HD continues this.
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Some time has passed. I think the infrastructure will move perfectly into the LW use case. Overnight charging on AC and DCFC when charging is needed on the go. I think it was pretty smart for HD to set it up that way.
There is no money/R&D going into making higher power AC inverters smaller or more efficient. If the industry isn't doing it, then hobbyists will have a very tough row to hoe trying to do it themselves. It's all about battery chemistry and motor power/efficiency right now.
Now with vehicles getting 70-100 KWH battery packs and chargers pushing upwards of 300KW charging speeds even a 50KW charger can be considered a "Destination Charger"
Look how many Plugshare checkin's list 25kw chargers with "slow charging rate" and only stayed for a hot minute to get enough juice to got to a "real" charger that can push 100kw or more.
The reality, at least here in North America, is that there are so few electric motos on the road that we just can't collectively move the needle in our direction. (LW sells a couple hundred a year, globally. Energica sells more but not orders of magnitude more) We have to be able to go with the flow. There will be fewer and fewer AC public chargers and none of them will get upgraded. They barely get repaired.
HD went all in on DCFC and provided the bare minimum functionality with the AC charger. I think it's more reading the writing on the wall than cutting corners. The only dumb thing they did was price it at $30,000 before splintering it to it's own brand.
LW and Energica owners are all posting about getting faster Level 2 charging, while Zero owners are wishing they had DCFC instead of max 12KW AC.
TL:DR
Give up on cobbling together some faster AC charging solution. Your time and money is better spent pushing the infrastructure to have all the DC Chargers you need.
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There will be fewer and fewer AC public chargers and none of them will get upgraded. They barely get repaired.
It depends on where. AC charging will always be common, especially if you include Tesla Destination stations which I often use on my Zeros as well as on my Energicas. Free AC charging is just about everywhere you look in Reno, Carson City, Gardnerville NV, even some free AC charging here in Auburn, CA. The big advantage of AC charging is every EV made can use it, in one way or another. Could need an adapter in many cases, but that is not a big deal. And it is also common at home and in some motels.
Also, free AC Charging at many city halls, such as in Sparks, NV or in VA City, NV.
Not much need to repair them, they are cheap enough to replace. Not a whole lot inside of them. They are just 240 VAC supplies. I would be just as happy with a 240 VAC 14-50R. In fact, I prefer such as can usually get a lot higher current direct from a 14-50R than a J-1772 which can be as low as a shared 3KW which means 1.5 KW each side.
I find the big problem to be unreliable CCS.
A few examples:
1. Hawthone, NV. Totally dead for more than a year.
2. Fallon, NV. Totally dead for more than a year.
3. CA I-80 Donnor Summit East, CA--totally dead for more than a year.
4. CA I-80 Donnor Summit West--totally dead for around six months.
5. Incline Village, NV, dead for around seven months.
On my 2020 Esse Esse 9, I could get to more places three years ago than I can today.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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You're kind of a unique case Don but let me ask you this.
If you had to give up a KWH of battery capacity to gain another KW of AC charging speed how many would you give up? If you had to add $2000.00 to the purchase price and 25 pounds for every additional 3.6 kw of charging speed with a permanent 15 liter top case you couldn't put anything in what would you spec your bike at?
or....
If all the CCS chargers worked 99% of the time and they were every 50 miles but you had to post regularly and advocate for that on Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, and other EV Car forums, blow up Plugshare and charge network provider's apps/websites, and email your state officials on the regular to ask for it.
Which one would you choose?
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If you continue to not read the things I post then yes, absolutely. It should be totally simple. Have fun!
When are you going to learn, it's not about reading, it's about being read :D
Setec DOES make a charger that will convert 240 AC single phase to DC fast charge, they can actually custom make a charger for you too if you talk nice to them to pretty much whatever specs you want. I had them make me a custom 30KW charger that runs off 240 Mains input. It's modular so if I am at say a track garage and there is only one 30 amp input, I only run one of the modules and get what I can out of it. When I am at home where I have 400 amp service, I can push what I need thru it.
The 10kw ones are a stock item and if you order one should ship very fast for you.
Aaron
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The price of the Setec charger is a bit expensive, especially if you buy it 3rd party.
Try talking to them directly, you should be able to work out a much better deal with them and they can have FedEx deliver it literally to your door. I got my 30kw fast charger, delivered to my door for under 5k. I'll post photos when it actually gets here, it's enroute now.
Aaron
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Which one would you choose?
Depends on the trip I am trying to take.
Perfect for me will be 25% more range than I really need to get between chargers every one hour of riding.
What bike I take will depend on the type of charge stations on the way.
-Don-
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It's like talking to a cockatoo. it makes sounds, but mainly for attention. geesh....