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[Richard230]

After 50 years of buying motorcycles, I don't believe any claims made by the manufacturer.  I take them all with a big grain of salt.  The only thing that I believe is what I experience when riding. Sometimes the performance is better, most of the time it is worse. But, while speculation is fun to discuss, I really want to see the bike on the road and get direct feedback from its owners.     Hopefully that will happen sometime this summer, before the snow and rain returns to Ashland, Oregon.   

[ZeroSinMA]

This Brammo doesn't make any sense to me, for the following reasons:

-Why try to match the performance of a regular bike when the price of the technology still doesn't allow it (half the power for double the price of a similar gasoline bike)
-Why increase the complexity and therefore maintenance cost (Clutch, gearbox), when the whole purpose of electric bikes is cheap running cost and low maintenance.

Zero is not trying to compete with gas bikes. Instead they are pushing the strength of the technology they have:

-Less power, so make a bike that will excel in the city:  keep the bike small and nimble for easy maneuvering.
-The batteries are still expensive, so make the bike almost free to maintain (no clutch, gearbox, chain ect...)

I think Zero is pushing the strength that the electric technology offers. Brammo is trying to compete with gasoline bikes, and cannot win!

Agree 100% I'll add that the whore reason IC bikes have gears is to try to smooth out the torque curve across the full speed range. The torque curve of an electric is smooth as an artifact of the physics of electric motors. No gears needed. Six is silly. That said, I can make an argument for two gears on an electric. The first gear is essentially no gearing and the second brings the motor RPMs down to close to zero again. Remember, an electric motor has 100% torque at zero RPM, whereas a gasoline IC engine has to rev up to 1000 RMP plus to generate torque. 

[ZeroSinMA]

As far as waiting for an e-bike to go into production, I'd like to remind everyone that from the time I put my $500 deposit down for a ZERO DS it was two years and one week to the day, when I received delivery on a 2010 DS. At the time I made the deposit, I had no idea that the DS would be the last model to be designed and produced. Things are a lot different now at ZERO and probably will be at Brammo when they get up to speed.

BTW - Zero nicely comped me ($0) the Corbin low profile seat as a reward for my 2+ year wait. At that time they were getting $500 for that option! I now have that same seat on my 2012 DS ZF6.

Trikester

Did Zero tell you the bike would be available in six months when you first put down a deposit and then didn't deliver for two years or was ero up front about the expected delivery?

Brammo has been saying "six months" for two years.

[Richard230]

When I bought my 2012 Zero, I was told that it would arrive at my dealer in 3 months. It arrived in less than 2 months. However, I did try to order a 2009 Zero and kept getting the runaround about the delivery date, so I finally gave up and bought a 2009 EMS GPR-S. That didn't turn out to be all that wise a financial decision, although it did show me that I liked electric motorcycles - if they would just keep running.   

[dkw12002]

Regarding energy consumption, I found for a typical gas car,  a .05 increase in wt. results in .02 decrease in mileage. All things being equal between a Zero and an Empulse, which they aren't, the added weight alone would reduce mileage by 15% (if they were both gas powered cars). Driving a car at 125 km/h vs. 100 km/h reduces mileage by 20%. Over 55 mph, each 5 mph increase in speed reduces mpg by about 8%. Rapid acceleration decreases mpg by about 30%.  None of this bodes well for trying to get good range out of a heavy, fast bike, notwithstanding the 10% bigger battery. Watts/h vs. mpg are different rates but the laws of aerodynamics and bodies in motion are the same.

My Ninja 650r is supposed to get 50+ mpg. The best I can get is 30 mpg...a 40% reduction in range. Can anybody guess why? Unless you are buying an Empulse for your grandmother, you can kiss those range figures goodbye, and why buy a sports bike and ride it like a moped? The real figure I am interested in, is the same thing I asked for with the 2012 Zero, namely, how much range at 80 mph minimum? cause that is highway speed where I live...assuming the speedometer is off by 5 mph making that a real 75 mph minimum. Life in the fast lane in other words, not the truck lane.  Comeon Brammo, get the dang bike out so we can see what it does.    

[CliC]

I wonder what is holding Brammo up?

I do feel for you pioneers. We "new kids" have it easy; I walked into a Zero dealership (albeit one I had to drive 200 miles to get to) and bought mine off the showroom floor.

I hope Brammo executes on this one. I like Zero, but competition is healthy. And after Brammo's big unveiling/press party, if they can't get the bikes out the door it won't help build confidence in this still-nascent e-bike business, especially amongst people who aren't passionate about the technology to begin with.

[trikester]

Actually I wasn't given a promised delivery date when I put down the $500. However, over the course of the two years I would get some vague information on ETA but mostly I couldn't find out much. As I mentioned before, I didn't realize that the DS model was the lowest priority in their production plans.

Then I got notice that some 2009 DS's were available but they had motor overheating problems. If I could wait until April of 2010 I could get a 2010 with that problem solved. It was my choice. A no brainer there, I waited for the 2010, which I finally got in August of that year. I was 73 when I put down the deposit and I told them several times, during the two years, that I hoped I would live long enough to see my new bike 

I wonder what happened to those few 2009 DS's they built? Collector's items? Maybe they modified them to the 2010 model and shipped them.

I was surprised when Jay Leno got his bike before me. You mean I don't pull as much weight as Leno?  Who would have thought?

(Actually it was the first "S", not "DS" that he got)

Trikester

[ZeroSinMA]

On another thread you said you were 77 years old. For real? If so, you're my hero. Means I got at least another 20 years of motorcycling to go if the gods are on my side.

[ZeroSinMA]

I've speculated here that if and when the Brammo Empulse ever ships it will either have fewer features or a higher price than originally advertised. Based on the spec released yesterday it looks like Brammo kept all of the features they promised but notice they are not talking about the price.

On the Brammo web site, the pre-order page says: "Price: TBA"

Are folks pre-ordering the bike without knowing how much it will cost? That's crazy.

In this thread we try to estimate how much the final MSRP will be given that the bike has a gearbox, a water cooled motor, 1.4KW more battery capacity and other costly features that the Zero doesn't have, not to mention the fact that Zero has years of production experience to figure out ways to shave cost of goods off their bikes to improve margins. Even with years of experience it's rumored that Zero makes at best $2500 or less than 20% gross margin on each Zero S.

Unless Brammo plans to sell every Empulse at a loss, expect it to cost > $16k. I'm going to guess: $16,995 MSRP.

Anyone else?

Wow. I was off by $2,000. The official price is $18,995.

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2108

The whole idea of gearing an electric motor is stupid. The reason for gearing a IC motor is to try to flatten the torque curve. An electric motor already has a flat torque curve, and power can be modulated electronically.

I think the Empulse will fail at this price.

[Richard230]

I don't think the Empulse will fail. I think they will just not sell as many of the models as does Zero.  If the Tesla can sell a top-spec sports car for $110,000, then Brammo can sell a top-spec motorcycle for $19,000 (about $21K out-the-door in states with sales tax).  But the market for that bike will be limited as it will be compared with high-spec IC Italian motorcycles that will have much greater performance, a more established dealer network and typically great motorcycle magazine shoot-out test results that the Empulse will not be able to match.

[ZeroSinMA]

I don't think the Empulse will fail. I think they will just not sell as many of the models as does Zero.  If the Tesla can sell a top-spec sports car for $110,000, then Brammo can sell a top-spec motorcycle for $19,000 (about $21K out-the-door in states with sales tax).  But the market for that bike will be limited as it will be compared with high-spec IC Italian motorcycles that will have much greater performance, a more established dealer network and typically great motorcycle magazine shoot-out test results that the Empulse will not be able to match.

Tesla is uneconomical, that is, cannot stay in business based on sales. A stock $110,000 Tesla won't beat a stock $62,150 Boxster Spyder. But Tesla got a $465 million dollar loan from the Federal government to keep them afloat. I predict Brammo will go out of business for all the reasons you mention because Brammo Empulse is uneconomical even at $19,000 and won't get Fed help to keep them afloat.  

[flar]

Tesla is uneconomical, that is, cannot stay in business based on sales. A stock $110,000 Tesla won't beat a stock $62,150 Boxster Spyder. But Tesla got a $465 million dollar loan from the Federal government to keep them afloat. I predict Brammo will go out of business for all the reasons you mention because Brammo Empulse is uneconomical even at $19,000 and won't get Fed help to keep them afloat.  

To be fair, Tesla has had a business plan that never claimed to be in the black until these next few years (I don't know the details of when, but it has certainly never been before the Model S shipments got into full gear).  They are right where they expected to be and the loan from the government was in lieu of what they had originally expected to get from private sector investors and they are currently on schedule to pay it off ahead of when they had predicted.  Establishing new technology on this scale takes time and money - don't assume that because a company in this sector is in the red that they are not a success, it's all consistent with the business plan and how you bootstrap a new technology in this industry.

The main difference is that Tesla has been producing results ahead of, or on, schedule consistently.  Brammo has been a fair bit behind at times.  If Brammo can keep potential investors happy despite their schedule slips then they may be OK as well...

[dkw12002]

Brammo better get some dealers lined up if they expect to sell $18,000 bikes. Their site lists a dealer in California, one in Florida, and one in Wisconsin. Is that really it? How have people been buying the Enertia?

[baumisch]

Brammo better get some dealers lined up if they expect to sell $18,000 bikes. Their site lists a dealer in California, one in Florida, and one in Wisconsin. Is that really it? How have people been buying the Enertia?

I am outside of US, but I got the impression Enertias were sold in WalMart Stores correct?

[Brammofan]

I am outside of US, but I got the impression Enertias were sold in WalMart Stores correct?

No, although they were originally sold at Best Buy stores back when they came out in 2009.  The Best Buy deal was ended last year and now they are sold through a few dealerships and also direct from Brammo.