ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: zap mc on April 18, 2012, 02:23:31 AM
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Zero have started their consumer mailout today and lead with the mileage capacity and quoted the 100 mile + claim and I am interested to know if anyone has actually done it out here in the real world as we all appreciate that the average speed at which you need to obtain this mileage is 19.1 mph and on a ZF9 naturally.
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In fairness, the average speed includes the warm stop periods in the UDDS test. The actual speed while traveling is closer to 25-30 mph.
The best I have seen is an estimated 73 miles total range from a 39 mile trip (~5.5 bars, 4.4 kWh to charge). Probably 70% 40-45 mph travel (some stop & go), 20% 30-40 mph, and 10% 20-30 mph.
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As I mentioned earlier, last week I traveled 50 miles on 4.85 kWh, measured at the wall outlet. I still had 5 bars left on the "fuel" gauge. I rode 5 miles at an average of 70 mph and the rest of my trip consisted of stoplight-to-stoplight travel at a top speed between lights of 45 mph. My trip also consisted of traveling up and down a series of hills consisting of 2 three hundred high hills and one 700 foot high hill. So I figure I could have easily ridden over 100 miles on a full pack if traveling on level ground at an average speed of 40 mph. I think Zero's mileage claims are valid for their ZF9 model.
However, I will agree that the government needs a more valid mileage testing method. I think the EV technology is surpassing their test method and it is time that they kept up with how EV owners are actually using their vehicles so that new owners don't get disillusioned when they try to get the claimed mileage while driving 75 on the freeway.
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However, I will agree that the government needs a more valid mileage testing method. I think the EV technology is surpassing their test method and it is time that they kept up with how EV owners are actually using their vehicles so that new owners don't get disillusioned when they try to get the claimed mileage while driving 75 on the freeway.
you encapsulated the sentiment exactly, the customer new to the electric motorcycle world will expect it to actually do 100 miles in the real world and when it doesnt it just leads to disappointment and disillusionment from the start, i dont know why the industry is waiting for different governments to set the standards when they should take the lead themselves or else the spin doctors just go into overdrive. Maybe Zero are just trying to pre empt the Brammo initiative?
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I also agree there needs to be a revised testing model. The number of potential customers asking about "real-world" range attests to that, if nothing else.
As for going 100+ miles, I'm too afraid of getting stranded to try it :) Maybe one day if I'm really close to home.
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I agree with all the statements, although I have to recognize that "what we want" in terms of range -without intermediate charging- it will probably not come before 7-10 years, if we are lucky...each manufacturer -including Zero- is trying to get the consumer head into electric bikes while they need to keep them affordable -which is quite impossible-
When you look at the marketplace today, and check the various specs, the ZF9 is probably the best bet in performance/range/price? Mostly of what is out there has been designed for short trips, or city use as every Kw of battery power still cost a lot of money.
The other aspect besides battery capacity is charging, we need fast charging stations...Zero's dealer in Spain is working with the local goverment to get "Zero" fast charging stations in Barcelona (20-30 min, full charge)...we'll see if if happens.
I rode the ZF9 yesterday -mostly freeway + ECO mode- 70 miles (2+1 bars left), 6Kw power comsumption measured on my power meter (mostly of the time at 50-55 mph, with 3-4 shorts overtakings at 65-70 mph).
It's all about tucking...the wind makes our fun shorter >:(
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It's all about tucking...the wind makes our fun shorter >:(
This is in my opinion why real world range is consistently lower than the gov't dynamo simulated riding: fails to account for wind resistance. I bet wind resistance knocks 10% to 20% off the simulated ride range.
Put a windshield on my 2011 S and added 10% to my range. Zero ought to ship all their street bikes with windshields.
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The EPA dyno schedules specify a speed-dependent resistance load for the dyno. I don't know how well the road load matches actual conditions.
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65 miles on the bike tonight, had 3 bars of charge remaining. Third bar no doubt very close to disappearing. Total range projection was a bit over 80 miles.
About 6-7 miles of that was 65 mph controlled access highway, some 50 mph riding, mostly 40-45 mph. Pulled the saddlebags off this morning (suspect I did not fit them correctly and they might have been rubbing on the tire), went with a backpack instead. Seems to have helped.
I really need a Cycle Analyst, I think. Lipo423, do you have one?
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Unfortrunately not Protomech >:(
I need to get one...the way I measure total power consumption is with a kind of European "Kill A Watt meter" like the one Richard has, but works at 220V...not exactly the most accurate way, but it is fine...
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This is in my opinion why real world range is consistently lower than the gov't dynamo simulated riding: fails to account for wind resistance. I bet wind resistance knocks 10% to 20% off the simulated ride range.
Put a windshield on my 2011 S and added 10% to my range. Zero ought to ship all their street bikes with windshields.
a really interesting point yes , my idea for a more meaningful range test would be just to see how long it went at differing mph intervals of 10mph on a real road with a real rider of 200 lbs.
i.e. 20mph = 100 miles
30mph = 90 miles
40mph = 70 miles etc
and in that way any customer could compare the relative mileage of any bike and make a mental adjustment for hills and stop start...
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Hi
even a challenge to get 100m out of my Harley with Peanut tank... so not only electric bikes have that challenge. Over here I have to know where I can fill up or I am stranded.
Tom
http://www.facebook.com/ZeroElectricMoto (http://www.facebook.com/ZeroElectricMoto)
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The EPA dyno schedules specify a speed-dependent resistance load for the dyno. I don't know how well the road load matches actual conditions.
That's good to know. Thanks.
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I now have 17" (modified rear from 16" rim to 17") highway legal knobbys on my 2012 DS ZF6 because I ride desert sandy trails a lot. However, I have discovered that the knobby tread has greatly reduced my highway mileage. :( I can probably improve it some by airing up the tires more when I'm going to do an all pavement ride. The test ride was: strong cross wind, desert somewhat level highway, and speed mostly 50 - 55 mph. The 30 mile round trip had me at two bars and flashing. I don't know how much distance I had left at that point.
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saw this article on torquenews.com and it seems that the manufacturers are now massaging the figures themselves to try and give a lead over the competition on paper...
". In this case we learn that the test procedure Zero used to determine the 66 mile range on the Zero S ZF9 is identical to the test procedure Brammo used to determine the combined range of 77 miles. That is, Brammo's test procedure for the highway spec is the "Constant Speed Riding Range Test Procedure for Electric Motorcycles" which uses a constant 70 miles/hr speed. Zero's test procedure for the highway spec is the constant 70 miles/hr speed, averaged with the results of the city speed. Zero's highway test procedure is the same test procedure Brammo uses for the combined range"
It makes more of a case for an agreed standard i think
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it seems that the manufacturers are now massaging the figures themselves to try and give a lead over the competition on paper...
Brammo lists a City / Combined / Highway range. Zero lists a City / "Highway Commuting" range, which is equivalent to Brammo's City / Combined range.
Zero does explain the definition for "Highway Commuting" in the footnotes (50% city miles / 50% highway miles), but a number of journalists who should know better and potential customers who should expect better have tripped up over the meaning of Zero's "highway commuting" range.
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it seems that the manufacturers are now massaging the figures themselves to try and give a lead over the competition on paper...
Brammo lists a City / Combined / Highway range. Zero lists a City / "Highway Commuting" range, which is equivalent to Brammo's City / Combined range.
Zero does explain the definition for "Highway Commuting" in the footnotes (50% city miles / 50% highway miles), but a number of journalists who should know better and potential customers who should expect better have tripped up over the meaning of Zero's "highway commuting" range.
And Zero does list the pure highway range in its Owner's manual. [edit - retracted, read followups]
Being relatively new to EV bikes I read all of these specs and immediately understood their significance and the footnotes were not really hard to get at. I'm surprised that a journalist would have needed to "learn" this. At best, I would have used "Keep in mind that..." and directed the readers how to compare apples to apples figures.
About the only fault I'd see is that Zero lists the name of the spec as "Highway (commuting, 70mph) [?]", but you can easily click on the ? for more information. They should have the word "combined" in there somewhere without having to click on a help popup link.
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Sales, Marketing & PM guys we are all like this ;D
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And Zero does list the pure highway range in its Owner's manual.
[/quote]
in order to get an owners manual you would have to buy a bike at which time it would be too late.
The whole thing is just too political for the average punter and electric bike companies do themselves and the industry a profound disservice by trying to get one over the competition and not being harmonious and transparent in their dealings with the public. You have no idea how indignant a customer will be when they get a whiff of this sort of shenanigans before they have even slung a leg over a bike. -NO SALE-
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And Zero does list the pure highway range in its Owner's manual.
Here's the snip from the Jan 14th version of the 2012 Zero S/DS manual:
RANGE
City EPA UDDS* Range
• ZF6 122 km (76 miles)
• ZF9 183 km (114 miles)
Highway at 113 km/h (70 mph)
• ZF6 69 km (43 miles)
• ZF9 101 km (63 miles)
Note that this is the same as Zero's Highway commuting range on their website. The pure 70 mph range is never listed explicitly.
Being relatively new to EV bikes I read all of these specs and immediately understood their significance and the footnotes were not really hard to get at. I'm surprised that a journalist would have needed to "learn" this. At best, I would have used "Keep in mind that..." and directed the readers how to compare apples to apples figures.
About the only fault I'd see is that Zero lists the name of the spec as "Highway (commuting, 70mph) [?]", but you can easily click on the ? for more information. They should have the word "combined" in there somewhere without having to click on a help popup link.
Yes. Highway commuting, to me, means commuting activity that takes place largely on the highway. It's a sufficiently vague CYA definition that covers both Zero's usage case of 50% city miles / 50% highway miles and the case that many people will assume, which is nearly 100% 70 mph commuting. And those two ranges are dramatically different.
Highway range = 1/(2/combined - 1/city) = 43.5 miles vs 63 miles combined riding.
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I cannot agree more -Unfortunately- >:(
By the way. I thought I had a reasonable English level since a few hours ago..."shenanigans" never heard that word since today...good learning...we have exactly the same word -and meaning- in Spanish!!!
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A famous saying goes:
There's lies, damn lies and marketing!
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It's all about tucking...the wind makes our fun shorter >:(
Put a windshield on my 2011 S and added 10% to my range. Zero ought to ship all their street bikes with windshields.
What windshield did you use? the one available from Zero? Is it easy to take on and off?
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I do not use any windshield...just the trucks ahead of me sometimes :D
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It's all about tucking...the wind makes our fun shorter >:(
Put a windshield on my 2011 S and added 10% to my range. Zero ought to ship all their street bikes with windshields.
What windshield did you use? the one available from Zero? Is it easy to take on and off?
Used this one: http://www.amazon.com/Slipstreamer-SS10-Viper-Windshield-SS-10-C-1/dp/B000GV8KSW (http://www.amazon.com/Slipstreamer-SS10-Viper-Windshield-SS-10-C-1/dp/B000GV8KSW)
Cost: $76.85
Took me 30 minutes to intall.
Looks like this:
(http://i39.tinypic.com/34hce3n.jpg)
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Nice! Looks like it was made for the bike.
Still debating whether to get one for my DS (though today's trip home in the rain makes me lean toward getting one), but I can;t help but wonder if a windshield would just look wrong on a DS :-\
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Nice! Looks like it was made for the bike.
Still debating whether to get one for my DS (though today's trip home in the rain makes me lean toward getting one), but I can;t help but wonder if a windshield would just look wrong on a DS :-\
The Zero S looks better with the windshield and sure gets better range. As you can see, it's quite aerodynamic. I used to ride slowly with gradual acceleration into town and back and get two flashing bars as I pulled into the driveway. Now I ride aggressively in and out of town and arrive home with four bars.
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hi
this sounds impressive to gain so much by better aerodynamics ! Have you done just one ride like that or is this repeatable ? I have a frequent taken same ride and with that I could compare. Just not sure if the get the bold on screen or replace the front lamp cover altogether with a sportier windshield. guess we need to try out some options.
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Here's the snip from the Jan 14th version of the 2012 Zero S/DS manual:
RANGE
City EPA UDDS* Range
• ZF6 122 km (76 miles)
• ZF9 183 km (114 miles)
Highway at 113 km/h (70 mph)
• ZF6 69 km (43 miles)
• ZF9 101 km (63 miles)
Note that this is the same as Zero's Highway commuting range on their website. The pure 70 mph range is never listed explicitly.
Ouch! You're right. I was duped by knowing that the ZF9 highway range was 43 (as I reverse engineered from the figures on the web site long before I read the manual) and so when I saw that figure I thought it was them coming clean on the highway range.
So, without doing those calculations you wouldn't know the true highway range. I wish they'd just list all 3...
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So today I took my Zero DS ZF9 on a ride from San Bruno to Pacifica then hwy 1, hwy 84, hwy 35, Page Mill Rd to Mountain View. I was making 55-60 mph on highway 1 for about 25 miles and then I went over the mountains via highway 84, 35 and then down via Page Mill Road. 70.1 miles total, 9 bars used. I figure by the time I got home the bike still had about 20 miles of slow travel (30 mph or so) to go before dying.
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I am really impressed with your ride Rotoiti. I have ridden that route (usually the reverse of your trip) many times on my IC motorcycles and I would not have thought that I could do it on my Zero. Getting from Highway 1 to 35 is quite a climb. I am going to have to give it a try myself. Thanks for the report.
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Are we making the mileage on a single charge a friendly competition?
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Are we making the mileage on a single charge a friendly competition?
I sure hope to become a member of "over 100 miles on a single charge" club one day :D
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Not a big deal. Get yourself with the ZF9 behind a truck that goes at 45 mph for over 100 miles and you are done ;D
Seriously, I believe it can be done, but being very, very, conservative with the throttle...and top speed.
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I'm just a few days into new ownership, but I can already tell that the difference in power consumption between 60mph (97kph - which is what I did limping home after low battery thing started flashing) and 80mph (125-130kph?) that I was doing earlier, where I was losing a bar every few exits on the highway (in an urban area where the exits are fairly close together). I've heard cars consume 20 percent more fuel at 120kph vs 100kph. Now I can see why if the impact is that dramatic on a bike with smaller mass and surface area (or maybe not smaller surface area relative to mass??).
I think it would be fun to see how far one could go on a charge in eco mode anticipating traffic to avoid jackrabbiting, etc in low traffic doing the whole hyper miler thing... as long as I had a good friend with a trailer standing by to give me and my bike a lift home! ;-)
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I am firmly convinced that I could travel the Zero claimed 114 miles of the ZF9, if I could ride around 35 miles per hour on level ground with not too many stops and starts.
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I am firmly convinced that I could travel the Zero claimed 114 miles of the ZF9, if I could ride around 35 miles per hour on level ground with not too many stops and starts.
Might be worth a try over a weekend. 3+ hours of low-speed riding might be tough to swing, but if I didn't recharge between sessions I could probably map out a long-range route in 4-5 sessions and see how it goes.
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Some guy I know just did 142 miles on a stock 2012 S ZF9. He claims he could have gone farther ;D
2012 Zero S ZF9 City/Country Range test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZudvNLac3Q#)
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That is impressive. I guess if you ride slow enough you too can go 142 miles on a single charge. ;)
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The best part is around the 4 minute mark where he drives past the nude beach. ;)
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So, if you were about to run out of battery, you could go 15 mph or so on the side of the road and ease on home. Nice to know. It beats pushing the bike.
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Yep, you can probably squeeze 15+ miles out of a bar at 15 mph.
Pushing the bike does blow. I had a BMS fault last night ~5 miles from home, thought I would push it home. I called a tow truck 0.5 miles later.
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No doubt pushing a 300lb motorbike 5 miles is tough work. But remember if the bike is on, the "off throttle" braking will be enabled making it harder to push (and the couple Watts that you are pushing into your battery will not extend your range ;) )
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When I was a teenager a friend & I pushed a 150 lb. bike for about 20 miles!!
What a experience...
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I did a ride last weekend; through the Santa Cruz mountains and then around the Bay and back through the Dumbarton Bridge. 81 miles, 11 bars gone. I rode 5.5 miles out of those 81 "on empty" but did not manage to deplete the battery completely (yay). I was mainly keeping under 45 and used eco mode throughout but had two stretches (about 5-6 miles total) of a highway ride with speeds up to 65 mph. I think it's a pretty good range achievement.
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Yep, I think 81 miles on a charge is farther than I've ever gone.
The bike was not terribly difficult to push, though I was worried about a 7% gradient hill that I would have to get it over. I was more worried about pushing it along a road with effectively no shoulder at night.
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Yesterday I rode my Zero for 100 miles. 20 of those miles were on the freeway at an average of 60 miles per hour and the rest were on two-lane highways at an average speed of 40 mph. I rode from my home in Pacifica to Fairfax, in Marin County, north of San Francisco, where I gave my bike a 3 kWh recharge, which completely recharged it after that 38 mile trip. Then I rode it another 20 miles north, to attend my granddaughter's middle-school graduation ceremony. I then rode back to the freeway along Lucas Valley Road and took the freeway south, over the GG Bridge, though San Francisco and back home. Arriving home, I had ridden just over 100 miles and it took another 6.7 kWh to fully recharge my battery pack. I am pretty sure that I could have ridden the entire trip without recharging at my daughter's home, but I would have put the bike in Eco mode and ridden a little slower on the way back. So it looks like it is not too hard to get 10 miles per kWh of wall outlet power. I am slowly starting to loose my "range anxiety" as I do more riding of my ZF9 Zero S. :)
If only the seat was a little softer. My butt was getting a little sore by the time I returned home and I had to sit on a soft couch to recover. ;)
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...over the GG Bridge, though San Francisco...
Probably old hat to you residents, but I can think of few things cooler (even literally ;)) than riding a Zero over the Golden Gate bridge :)
If only the seat was a little softer. My butt was getting a little sore by the time I returned home and I had to sit on a soft couch to recover. ;)
Mine gets a little hard on longer days, too, but then again I wonder if there's any long, thin, dirt-bike-style seat that's comfortable? I guess there are, or adventure touring wouldn't be as popular as it is.
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A couple of days ago I rode 72 miles with my ZF9. Mostly of the trip (90%) was on the highway at 50-56 mph upright riding position -no tucking-. After the ride two bars left in the gauge ;D
Not too bad either...
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One of the things I forgot to mention about my ride was that as I was riding on Lucas Valley Road (home to guess who?), I had my bike in Eco mode and rode up a long hill, loosing a bar in the process. As I coasted down the other side of the hill, the bar returned. Regen actually works. ;D Of course, a few miles later the bar disappeared again. :(
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Lucas Valley Road (home to guess who?),
The disadvantaged people? :-O (http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/16/real_estate/george-lucas-housing/index.htm)
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great, great range you guys get out of the 2012 models. with the old 2010 and now my 2011 I am sitting at about 50km (31miles) save or maybe a bit more for a trip ....
that is going in average as well 30miles/hour in speed, up and down hills. decent fun riding. I am in fact disappointed that the 2010 to 2011 did not produce any real improvements.... seems the 2012 is it !
the older models seem to be more comparable to the XU/MX range with a smaller, but more modern battery and the new brushless motor.
My brushed Agni seems to go through moodes - some days beautiful performance, other days rather average and hear some more heavier motor turning (brushes??) combined with more energy usage...
anyway, on that one working with Zero and swapping parts as we go. wondering if I should follow the advise of successful MotoX racer with the Zero/Agni that fixed up the motor properly beyond the factory delivered... so anyone with the 2011 or older having such issues ?
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My wife was riding our Zero DS yesterday. She doesn't have the license yet, just the learner's permit so she wasn't riding on any highways, just local roads -- I think she went to South SF and back. Her result was supreme: 72.9 miles on 7 bars (eco mode). She'd easily get over 110 miles if she continued. She is a full foot shorter than me and 70 pounds lighter -- the takeaway is that it takes energy to move mass through air...
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Hi rotoiti,
so what do you think about a new "How to Diet" thread ;D just kidding.
But the better the efficiency of a device the more you will recognize the little changes like weight and wind resistance.
You will see a lot of girls will beat us soon, if they get hold of the Zeros.
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so what do you think about a new "How to Diet" thread ;D just kidding.
No kidding, I could really shed some 20 pounds / 10 kilos, my heart would thank me for that... But even when I do become lighter I will still be almost 2m tall and that doesn't help with aerodynamic drag :)
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Did another long ride this weekend, again an exploratory ride on the route to mom's house. Rode until I hit 5 bars discharged and turned around. Got caught in the rain without rain gear toward the tail end (curse you weather.com), so sped up a bit at the end to get home : )
Elevation / speed map here:
http://runkeeper.com/user/protomoto/activity/92658134 (http://runkeeper.com/user/protomoto/activity/92658134)
Spent several periods stopped, average speed while moving was about 45 mph.
Total distance covered was 68.0 miles per the bike odometer, 65.19 miles per the GPS. Bike speed and odometer are probably about 4% high.
Used 9.3 bars in total, which gives a total range of about 77 miles. Total distance for the trip is 83 miles, so it's just outside the feasible single-charge range for the bike. If I ever make the trip for real I'll probably stop and charge for 60-90 minutes partway through. Road speeds are mostly 55-65 mph, so with low traffic it can be done at a lower speed and keeping a careful eye on the road behind. Wouldn't recommend it to anyone, though.
Lost bars at the following distances:
8.0 10 bars remaining
12.6 9 bars remaining # note that went up a 700 foot elevation gain here
19.8 8 bars remaining
26.2 7 bars remaining
33.4 6 bars remaining, turn around
40.8 5 bars remaining
48.7 4 bars remaining
56.1 3 bars remaining # elevation drop doesn't seem to add much to range here
65.2 2 blinking bars remaining
67.9 end 2538.1 total miles
Here's a plot of battery capacity consumed vs estimated bars consumed:
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0AubOGC_oXqHfdFBMLUhvNVRKVnRCRzlOQWJvT05QZEE&oid=1&zx=vquk61jn4ex9)
It's not exactly linear, but when the 11th bar disappears you probably still have a bit of charge (15 Ah) or so left in the pack, or about 900 Wh. It's probably best for battery longevity that Zero isn't doing a 100% discharge.
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Forgot to charge last night .. was messing with the bike, then wandered upstairs and got distracted : )
Left for work with a bit over 4 bars remaining, 46 miles already on the bike. Got home with 70 miles and about 1.2 blinking bars remaining.
Rode around the neighborhood at 20-25 mph; the final bar disappeared at 77.1 miles. Battery pack is at 16% with 0 bars showing.
Kept riding. There's a half mile loop around my house, I figured I would ride at ~20 mph around the loop until the bike stopped, then push it back.
At 92.1 miles I gave up and parked the bike. Battery pack is at 6%. Still seemed to pull pretty strongly when I twisted the grip, maybe a bit slower than normal.
If the bike kept going until it hit 0% remaining, it would have made it just over 100 miles.
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Battery pack is at 16% with 0 bars showing.
How do you measure the remaining charge percentage?
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OK, all I have is a ZF6.
But I took the challenge and went 67.1 miles on a charge. (the last bar disappeared at 62.3)
(7.9/5.3)*67.1 = 100
Does that count?
And protomech, like rotoiti I'm curious what device you're using to measure partial bars and battery pack % #'s.
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The BMS has an onboard serial port. I'll post more details about this soon.
Dang...I really wish we had someone on the Brammo Forum who had dug into their bike like you have.
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OK, all I have is a ZF6.
But I took the challenge and went 67.1 miles on a charge. (the last bar disappeared at 62.3)
(7.9/5.3)*67.1 = 100
Does that count?
Sure! It's actually 67.1 * 1.5 = 100.7, for whatever that's worth : )
ZF6 has a big advantage, it weighs 44 lbs less.. I wish I weighed 44 lbs less.
And protomech, like rotoiti I'm curious what device you're using to measure partial bars and battery pack % #'s.
The BMS board has an onboard serial port. More details soon. I estimate partial bars by watching when they disappear - for example, if the 7th bar disappears (leaving 4 remaining) at 57.3 miles and I go an extra 3.8 miles at a pace I know uses about 8 miles per bar, I call that 61.1 miles and 7.5 bars. I'd like to replace those mental gymnastics soon..
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Rode the Zero to visit mom over the weekend.
Two primary ways to get there:
1. 120 miles of interstate + some off-interstate city roads, ~2 hours
2. 83 miles of state highways, 45-65 mph, ~1.5 hours
I took option 3:
3. 85 miles (https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Bailey+Cove+Rd+SE&daddr=34.59537,-86.54326+to:34.3287089,-86.6054364+to:33.735356,-86.650937+to:N+Chalkville+Rd%2FCo+Rd+10&hl=en&sll=34.616822,-86.554241&sspn=0.098749,0.209255&geocode=FYLPEAIdfoLX-g%3BFSriDwIdZHTX-il3bTwBAQ1iiDHY8rUCiKE2IQ%3BFYTQCwIdhIHW-il3Xr8vp92JiDFeloEEmAebUw%3BFbzCAgIdx8_V-imbyJ2hEAqJiDGaN64WENYdnQ%3BFcw1AQIdEHXW-g&mra=dpe&mrsp=1&sz=13&via=1,2,3&t=m&z=13), ~40% of which is 50-65 mph highways rest is backroads 30-40 mph
I have done the first stage of this route several times, ridden halfway, and turned back around .. making sure the bike was doing okay. As near as I could tell from google maps, I should be able to just barely make it by going the backroad route and riding under the speed limit where safe to do so. Erring on the side of caution, I also called ahead to a couple of restaurants near the midpoint and found one where I would be able to charge. (they were all very nice, but the first two I called said they didn't think they had external outlets)
Stopped to refuel part way at a restaurant. I think I may have popped a breaker; only gained maybe a bar in 1.5 hours (typically gain 1.5 bars/hour). A little worried about range.
The leg from the restaurant on turned out to be really easy, the backroad route was 30-35 mph and very pretty. Rolled into mom's place with 0 bars remaining and about 3-4 miles into the reserve (reserve is about 20 miles @ 20 mph, 10 miles @ 40 mph).
Returning home the next day was much easier. Stopped to charge for an hour (same restaurant), gained 1.6 bars (12 miles recharged per hour), arrived at home with 1.8 bars remaining. Net elevation gain was near zero, though there is a 700 foot gain in ~1 mile that I go up on the way out and descent on the way back.
So. Huntsville to Trussville? Totally possible. Practical? Well..
What would make it easier:
* aero improvements for the Zero.
* more battery capacity.
* faster charging. If I could find two separate circuits an hour stop would get me enough charge to ride at a significantly faster pace.
What would make it harder (or completely unfeasible):
* cycle-based range degradation (since already pushing it close) .. I have approximately 45 full cycles on the batteries now.
* colder temperatures that sap range (even 60F might be enough of a range drop to rule it out).
* strong headwinds.
* heavier traffic forcing a higher speed for safety.
Would I do it again on the Zero? Probably not, or at least not until I can work on the aerodynamics. This trip is right on the very edge of the Zero's capabilities, and I'm not really comfortable pushing both the speed deltas between myself and traffic and the range margin. I think I could improve the route a little, and perhaps ride a bit more efficiently. Still.. it's nice to know it's possible. Now I just need to make it easy :)
Oh.. and on topic.
On the return trip I traveled 88.9 miles with 10.9 total bars used, leaving me with 1.7 bars remaining after a 1.6 bar charge. Counting the 1.5 bar hidden reserve, that gives me 88.9 * 12.5 / 10.9 = 101.9 miles in a single charge. If you count the charge as part of "one trip", then total distance at that pace is 88.9 * (12.5 + 1.6) / 10.9 = 115 miles.
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But you guys are missing the point in my opinion.
Electric bikes are not designed for long range touring. They just aren't! No yet at least...
Don't buy a Zero to try and do a cross country trip!! So being disappointed when the bike doesn't reach the 100miles mark is missing the point.
Zero designed a bike to allow you to commute to work or run errands around town. And for that, the bike delivers.
Those who needs to have a bike delivering more than 100miles range day in and day out shouldn't buy electric.
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But you guys are missing the point in my opinion.
Electric bikes are not designed for long range touring. They just aren't! No yet at least...
Perhaps. Riding lawn mowers weren't designed for racing, but...
Lawn Mower Racing Rockingham NWLMRA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akaanteVCs4#)
Those who needs to have a bike delivering more than 100miles range day in and day out shouldn't buy electric.
Day in and day out, yes. But who are we humans if not envelope-pushers? :)
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Pushing the envelope yes, but this talk about range is what most people always think about when talking about electric.
If they stopped for a second, they'd realized it's just a non issue for this type of vehicle.
And this thread reinforces this, which will probably make people give up on electric, when we actually need more people buying, the technology being more widely spread, so that prices come down and range increases due to more money for research...
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Range is a non-issue in my daily commuting usage, because it's very predictable and well beneath the capabilities of the bike. On my longest regular day (leave at 5:30 am, return at 11 pm) I'll do 70 miles - and I have a couple of opportunities to charge mid-day. (I go to a friend's house in the evening for movies, I can charge there if I need to .. but haven't had to thus far)
Range is a big issue for shorter single-day trips like this last one. The Zero completed the trip successfully, but it required a set of compromises that make it a secondary choice at best.
Recharge speed is a bigger issue for touring, as offthegrid has done .. range just allows you to go further distances between charging points.
People ask me three things about the bike: range, speed, recharge time. I tell them 60-80+ miles in my usage (but YMWV), 85+ mph (see YMWV), and either 5 seconds or overnight.. depending on how you look at it.
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Exactly. For day trips, this bike is a second choice. It just cannot be used like a regular bike would.
You have to use it for what it excels at: commuting with time to recharge in between trips :)
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I'd love to see 4x charger built-in on board, connected to J1772 socket. This setup is well within the bike's envelope.
I wonder if the limitation is the heat that needs to be dispersed while charging. Both the onboard charger and my quick charger get quite hot while charging.
Anyway, sure, the bike is an excellent commuter [and I (ab)use it as such] but I wish I could go farther. For me, the limitation is the charging speed; there are plenty of charging stations around Bay Area, even more in CA. It should be entirely possible to go from SF to LA on a Zero, if it wasn't for charging speed limitation. If I could stop at a restaurant and charge at 4x the speed of the onboard charger I would definitely attempt such a trip. But I am not converting my Zero to a Christmas tree of quick chargers :)
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Yes Rotoiti, heat is the main problem + proper IP enclosure + Network...a 4KW charger is like a heater ;) and it would be challenging to find (today)where to plug-it in as current demand would be pretty high.
Hopefully they will find a solution for installing at least a 2Kw one in the 2013 models (this should not be a problem as there is plenty of space), and 8-9A (in Europe at 220V), is not a big deal
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it would be challenging to find (today)where to plug-it in as current demand would be pretty high.
That is what I was hinting at: there are plenty of Chargepoint/Blink EV charging stations around here but our Zeros are unable to make full use of those. Even with the J1772 connector, you're still limited to what the onboard charger can provide, even though most electric car charging stations can supply 32A at 240V (over 7 kW) and some are upgraded to 80A at 240V (19 kW).
SAE 1772 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772)
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Yep, I cannot agree more with you...we have to be patience >:( as EV vehicles -and anything behind them- are still in their infancy...
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People ask me three things about the bike: range, speed, recharge time. I tell them 60-80+ miles in my usage (but YMWV), 85+ mph (see YMWV), and either 5 seconds or overnight.. depending on how you look at it.
They always ask me how much does one cost, too. I love that answer about recharge time!! 8) I'll use that from now on....
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I saw the past few posts on this page and just felt the need to comment. I have had my 2012 Zero S for a little over 2 months now. Just crossed the 5000 mile mark a few days ago. I have not had to ride my other motorcycles (nor have I wanted to) or even driven one of my cars since I got it. As soon as I got it, I realized I didn't need more batteries. What I needed was the ability to charge faster. in fact if I had a limited budget and could either get a ZF9 with one charger or a ZF6 with 4 chargers, the choice would easily be the latter. At the Nissan dealerships, Blink, Aerovironment, or Chargepoint stations I usually charge at close to 4.2 kw when the battteries are near full. the chargers run so much cooler also versus charging at 120 volts. Not to mention 90% of every charge station I've been to is free! My total electricity cost for 5000 miles of riding is just over $5.00 total including at my house. Although because of load balancing my deep cycle batteries at my house, i rarely charge there. At night I'd drain my batteries too low, but if I'm home during the day I'll gladly fill my bike up with free sunshine! For those who don't know, i have been off the grid now for almost a year with no power bill. You can learn more here: www.facebook.com/lifeoffthegrid (http://www.facebook.com/lifeoffthegrid) So that $5 is almost completely from my charge point account.
To me the 2012 S is the perfect go anywhere whenever sport touring bike. Also the first bike i have had that carries 2 passengers easily (yes you read that right, 2 passengers. 3 total people. More pictures of that and of the charger mounting at the link above to the Off The Grid page. I have also noticed that I'm going further than I used to. So perhaps my driving is getting better (not really I tend to drive really aggressive and actually ground so much of the kickstand turning left that i had a small failure and had to tape it up so the bike would run until I fixed it. recommendation is higher mounting on future models and to make the ring the bolt goes through out of much thicker aluminum or out of steel) or the batteries are getting stronger as i pass 5000 miles. Not sure. I'd love to download the data from my bike and analyze it. Wish there was a Zero dealer closer to me in Florida with a diagnostic computer. Oh well, perhaps another reason for a nice long afternoon roadtrip. :)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/529023_448452575172745_1099447991_n.jpg)
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Well, I am impressed! ;D
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I always thought if I had a ZF9 bike and i needed to take long trips that I would get an electric car charger like the Manzanito Micro PFC-20. This charger is fully adjustable up to 4.3Kw output all in a package about the size of a shoebox. That would eliminate the Christmas tree effect of multiple chargers with a more efficient charger for about the same price ($500 per Kw?) and you can dial down the charge rate for smaller circuits, other loads sharing the same circuit, etc. (works on 120 or 220 VAC.). J1772 "nozzles" are be available to go with it in the $200-300 range through other vendors. Of course, a little wiring know how would be required but it shouldn't be too difficult.
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PFC-20 is a maximum of 30A DC (with buck enhancement). Each Delta-Q is 12A DC maximum (I think they're the 72V models.. 48V is up to 18A). PFC-20 is 2.5x as fast as a single Delta-Q, but only slightly larger than a single Delta-Q.
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The weight is what is amazing! If cost isn't an issue, the PFC-40 which is a little over 3 grand, weighs only 17 pounds. The trouble is the PFC 40 is 40 amps output and the PFC 20 with buck is 20- up to 30 amps. For less than half that price, the delta Q's are letting me charge at 48 amps! and technically, the EIG C020 cells on the ZF9 can charge up to 60 amps if my math is correct and still be below the "recommended charge current" not even the max. I heard the TTXGP guys were fast charging packs in 30 min at over 200 amps and the batteries showed no signs of loss of capacity.
zf9 20AH pouch cells 18s6p config 20AH * 6 = 120AH * (0.5C) = 60 amps recommended charge current
To do that would require 5 on board chargers on the ZF9
http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg (http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg)
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Also notice the graph at the bottom right of that link above. Charging at 1C (on the ZF9 would require 10 on board chargers!) capacity reached maximum around charge cycle 200 and stayed flat until about cycle 500 with 100% DOD. Say that's just under 100 miles, the batteries are still being 'broken in" and range is improving until the bike hits almost 20,000 miles! And not a hint of loss of capacity until almost 50,000 miles! Although they were being friendly with the discharge of 1C as well.
(http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg)
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I have two confusions ( three if you count my girlfriend ;D ) maybe you can help me out?
1) the EIG spec sheet:
http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg (http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg)
states in one part:
Cycle life at 25C: (1C charge/1C Discharge, DOD 100%) ... 1000 cycles to 80% Nominal Capacity
BUT the graph the offthegrid was pointing out gives the same conditions and shows a capacity of 95%+ after 1000 cycles.
2)
zf9 20AH pouch cells 18s6p config 20AH * 6 = 120AH * (0.5C) = 60 amps recommended charge current
How does that math work? Where does "6" come from?
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To answer the second question first, the cells are 20 amp hours each and 3.65 volts. There are 18 in series to give about 66 volts and 6 in parallel to give 120 amp hours. (108 total pouch cells) to charge at 1C that is 120 amps. To discharge at the max 10C that is 1200 amps (less than 10 seconds) or a continuous 5C which is 600 amps. Considering the Sevcon can only put out a max of 420 amps, the batteries are well, well under their max limitations. You could almost power a second controller and motor. That surely would split the load at 75mph and divide the heat between the two. Hmmmm, TTXGP ideas anyone? Sorry I got off topic, but yes the ZF9 has 120 AH.
And to answer your second question, the data points suggest 95% is the correct answer. The cells that are 40 AH actually have more than 100% capacity after 1000 cycles:
http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/C040.pdf (http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/C040.pdf)
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Thanks! One more minor mystery regarding weight. Each cell is ~.94 lbs:
ZF9 has 108 cells. (0.94*108=101lb)
ZF6 has 72 cells. (0.94*72=68lb)
So from just batteries; there's a 33 pound difference between ZF6,ZF9.
The Zero specs say the ZF9 is 44 pounds heavier than a ZF6. Is it possible that the wiring, mounting for the extra 36 cells weighs 11 pounds? Seems a tad high. Is there other differences between the ZF6 & ZF9??
So the ZF6 weighs 300lb; frame=22 lbs; batteries=((33+11)*2=88 lbs;
Where is the rest of the 190 lbs? Tires, Forks, Brakes, Seat, Motor, Black Battery Box, some electronics; Can all that weigh 190 lbs? I guess it all adds up.
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ZF6 powerpack is 112 lbs.
Delta-Q is 9.5 lbs.
Frame is 22 lbs.
Motor is 29 lbs.
Out of 297 lbs, that leaves 124 lbs for seat, lights, wheels, forks, tires, cables, brakes, fairings, bars, instrumentation, etc.
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I DID IT!!! I rode 105 miles in one long ride this morning. ;D
I have a 2012 ZF-9 that started with 741 miles on it.
The roads were pretty evenly distributed between 35-45-55 mi/hr.
Eco Mode
I weigh 165lbs
Rode in aerodynamic position for much of the ride (or at least it felt that way!).
Hilly terrain with an elevation gain of 1,000ft.
Temperature 70 degrees at beginning of ride, 81.3 degrees at end of ride.
Basically rode from Montclair, NJ to Sussex, NJ (40 miles) and back then looped around Montclair for the final 25 miles since my battery indicator was showing zero bars.
At 86.4 miles the last bar disappeared, yet I rode about 20 more miles.
At 105.0 miles there was a drop in power, but I squeezed out another 1.3 miles to get home.
Total mileage is 106.3 miles on one charge.
This makes me optimistic that 114 is possible going at speeds with less air resistance, like 35 and below. Also fewer hills would help.
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Great. So its definetly confirmed for a nice recreational ride.
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I also agree there needs to be a revised testing model. The number of potential customers asking about "real-world" range attests to that, if nothing else.
As for going 100+ miles, I'm too afraid of getting stranded to try it :) Maybe one day if I'm really close to home.
Agreed. I've been looking into buying a Mitsubishi i-MiEV electric car and I can't get anyone to tell me a worst case range (cold day, cabin heater on, highway speeds followed by traffic jam) that would reassure me that my wife can get to work and back safely in it.
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Consumer Reports (http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/06/with-the-mitsubishi-i-miev-electric-car-range-anxiety-is-included.html) tested the MiEV.
The Mitsu caught a break by arriving during the mildest winter Connecticut has had in years. With temperatures hovering in the 40s and 50s, we averaged 56 miles per charge. That's woefully insufficient for drivers like us, who do not live in city centers. As springtime temperatures rose into the 60s and 70s, the i-MiEV managed to wring out 61 miles fairly reliably. And on one breathtaking occasion, it summoned up 77 miles. (Mitsubishi claims a range of 80 miles, but the EPA pegs it at a more realistic 62.) Our overall average so far is 59 miles.
Worst case is probably 81 mph (top speed) with the cabin heater on full blast. In those conditions it's probably 40 miles or so.
Traffic jam would probably improve the range over traveling at 80 mph .. except possibly when it is very hot or very cold outside.
Edit: Inside Line has a MiEV for a year. An early trip in April (http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2012/04/2012-mitsubishi-i-miev-i-dont-read.html) (1.5 mile city trip followed by a 48 mile highway trip) left them with a blinking turtle 45 miles into the highway trip, at which point they exited the freeway and completed the trip on surface streets. Total trip distance was 49.8 miles.