ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: zugvogel on May 25, 2019, 04:35:20 AM
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I just posted this in the Energica section but I figured this might be interesting here as well:
I have an interesting problem.... I have a Zero SR/F on order but my local Energica dealer also has a new 2017 Eva in stock, at the 2018 MSRP of 18K.
My worry would be that the battery is now 2 1/2 years old and has likely just been sitting on low charge. Is it possible to check the state of the battery and is my worry justified?
I test drove both bikes and I like the "lightness" of the SR/F compared to the top-heavy Eva. In terms of power I don't think there is much difference and unlike what I expected I think the SR/F goes a bit faster of the line since the Eva (2017=80kW) seems to have a very soft throttle coming of a stand-still. Which makes sense if you factor in the 100lbs less on the Zero. But my point being - the power difference does not feed into my decision making as it is too close to call. However the test rides are 4 weeks apart now so my memory might trick me here.
What the SR/F has going for it is probably a longer range, especially with the extra battery that I was planning to add when it comes out in fall. The Eva of course has DC charging which is plenty available around here.
The Eva was also very stiffly set up, but I assume the fully adjustable suspension can take care of that.
I do like the SR/F's look better - less is more and I think they hit the nail on the head with avoiding complexity; i.e. the Eva with liquid cooling, reduction gearbox etc just seems to have a lot more complexity to it - visually as well as technically... does it matter? not sure
What would you do????
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Unless you want to get a Energica for collection's sake the SR/F has a lot of points going for it. It is (hopefully) the simpler bike to own, drivetrain simplicity is in favor of the Zero with little advantage to the Eva...are you planning to overheat the motor? Won't be easy unless you race around or sustain very fast cruise. And of course in that situation you have very little range on either bike anyway, and the Eva's battery will probably also overheat under those conditions.
The SR/F is also newer and at worst has a much newer battery, so that's always good. To actually check the battery on the Eva you would need to do a full charge / discharge cycle (preferably more than one) and see if the capacity is there and if there are any balance issues at the bottom of the pack.
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What? Both the Eva's motor and battery run significantly cooler than Zero's. It's pretty damn hard to overheat an Energica battery.
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Look at the battery warranty of both. The Zero is Li-ion and the Eva is Lipo. You can make that call.
For most people I would say how close is your dealer for the Energica, but you sound close enough.
Do you have a lot of DC charging on your planed routes? Having DC charging won't help if it's not where you ride.
I think the Eva is a high quality bike from what others have said but the power tank option of the SRF alone would give it the nod if like myself the idea of charging while on a ride isn't appealing.
I would low ball the Eva to 15-16k and you need to check on their warranty rules. Zero starts the warranty clock when they ship to the dealer not when you buy the bike so a "new" 2016 Zero would have no full coverage warranty. I don't know what Energica's rules are.
Either way it's sounds like you'll have a very nice bike in the near future. :)
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Look at the battery warranty of both. The Zero is Li-ion and the Eva is Lipo. You can make that call.
For most people I would say how close is your dealer for the Energica, but you sound close enough.
Do you have a lot of DC charging on your planed routes? Having DC charging won't help if it's not where you ride.
I think the Eva is a high quality bike from what others have said but the power tank option of the SRF alone would give it the nod if like myself the idea of charging while on a ride isn't appealing.
I would low ball the Eva to 15-16k and you need to check on their warranty rules. Zero starts the warranty clock when they ship to the dealer not when you buy the bike so a "new" 2016 Zero would have no full coverage warranty. I don't know what Energica's rules are.
Either way it's sounds like you'll have a very nice bike in the near future. :)
The Energica battery warranty states the following.
The duration of the battery limited warranty is 3 years (36 months) or 50,000 km (31,000 mi), starting from the date of the initial, and from the consequent date recorded within this warranty card, whichever comes first (time or distance).
So whatever that means. So if you buy a new ZERO that sat at a dealer for 2 years, it will still have 3 years left on the battery.
The full 2 year warranty on the Zero starts when delivered to customer or 3 years after dealer receives it from Zero. Whichever is shorter.
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If you order a new bike from Zero you get the full coverage 2 year warranty. But any bike on the floor is a demo. Which deals with the "shipment date". So this applies : (copied from Zero's webpage under owners section)
( B. What is the Coverage Period for Demonstrators?
The duration of this Limited Warranty for demonstrator 2020 Zero Motorcycles, not including the Power Packs, is a period of two (2) years and 90 days from the original “shipment date.â€
Note: The “shipment date†is the date that Zero ships the demonstrator 2020 Zero Motorcycle to the authorized dealer.
The duration of this Limited Warranty for the Power Packs (not including the Power Pack’s outer case) is:
Five (5) years and 90 days from the “shipment date†for the Z-Force® ZF14.4 Power Packs on the 2020 Zero SR/F Motorcycle.
Five (5) years and 90 days from the “shipment date†of the host 2020 Zero SR/F Motorcycle for the Z-Force® Power Tank accessory. If purchased after the host Power Pack warranty has expired, the Power Tank will receive the standard parts warranty of one (1) year from date of purchase.
The Power Pack’s outer case is not covered under the Power Pack Limited Warranty duration terms above. Instead, the Power Pack’s outer case is covered for a period of two (2) years and 90 days from its “shipment date.†)
Not a big deal for a newer one but there are some new old stock bikes out there that will only have a short if any 2 year full coverage warranty. Plenty of battery warranty left but the charger and other parts are on you.
The 3 year 31,000 mile Energica coverage vs the 5 year unlimited mileage Zero warranty speaks to Lipo vs Li-ion and which one might be the better battery type.
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Thank you all for chiming in, those are all good points... as of this moment I am still on the fence... let’s face it, this will be my first electric bike, not the last so either way I will make the right call for the moment in time :-)
I’ll see what deal I can get on the Eva and if that will be enough to cope with the heaviness and battery situation I‘ll go for it. Those are really the min points. If you are a zero owner and never rode an Energica, try it - the real and perceived weight difference is significant.
I have good dealers for both brands close by, so that’s not an issue.
I’ll keep y’all posted.
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Keep in mind the charging figures. Enerigica is super cool when you can charge via CCS but if you have to stick to AC charging, then there is only 3kW available. When you have plenty of DC charging stations thats a minor issue but if you plan a trip through the mountains (of Switzerland and Austria for excample), you'll find loads of AC stations but hardly any CCS. Hence I have ordered a SR/F premium with the additional 6kW.
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. Zero starts the warranty clock when they ship to the dealer not when you buy the bike so a "new" 2016 Zero would have no full coverage warranty. I don't know what Energica's rules are.
Either way it's sounds like you'll have a very nice bike in the near future. :)
Incorrect, at least in the UK. I bought my 2014DS in January 2016, which is when it was registered. Registration date should trigger the start of the warranty period. To prove the point, the BMS was replaced on my bike last Autumn. The warranty was extended to 3 years as a gesture of goodwill after a few warranty claims rendered my bike off-road for a few months.
If a dealer receives a bike and immediately registers it so it can be used as a demonstrator, then naturally the warranty starts from then.
That's my understanding and experience of it, at least. It would seem very unfair to do otherwise. Maybe different rules apply in different jurisdictions?
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I've also been wondering about getting an Energica. There's only one dealer here in the UK though and it's in the middle of nowhere!
Whilst I wish Zero had gone high voltage and implemented CCS by now, a charge tank will provide twice the charging rate of an Eva at a single phase 7kW post, which are the most prolific. Just bear in mind that a premium SRF will only charge at 3.3kW from a 7kW post though. That's because the onboard chargers are only 3.3kW each and are on separate phases. Once the charge tank is available for the SRF, it will be possible to charge at 6.6kW from a 7kW post, providing the connections for phase 1 and 3 are swapped at one end of the cable. Therefore, there's an argument to save money and get the standard version now and spend the money later in the year on a charge tank. That will give you the 6.6kW you desire from a 7kW post and 9.9kW when you can use a three phase AC post.
For me it's the Zero. I like the elegance of their design and they are far more established. No doubt the SRF handles much better, the battery should last much longer and you won't get that annoying loud whine that the Energicas create.
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On the charging... I am in the US (Los Angeles) where charging options are everywhere. What I am not sure of is this:
On a J charger here I should pretty much always get 6.6kW on a premium SR/F but only 3kW on the Eva.
If I were to add the charge tank to the zero, I can get 12kW, but only if I plug it into a second charger?!? The Chargers don’t go above 6.6 so how can I take advantage of the 12kW?
Now on the Eva, I just find myself one of the many CCS chargers around here and be happy, right? But... they are expensive round here, just sayin’...
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The lack of widespread 12kw level 2 chargers in my area (US NorCal) made the rapid charger kind of pointless for me. Also, even the 6+kw level 2 chargers may drop in half if it’s a shared charger and someone’s already using one of the charge cables.
Besides, I have more use for the power tank (longer range) when it’s released than faster charge times.
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On the charging... I am in the US (Los Angeles) where charging options are everywhere. What I am not sure of is this:
On a J charger here I should pretty much always get 6.6kW on a premium SR/F but only 3kW on the Eva.
If I were to add the charge tank to the zero, I can get 12kW, but only if I plug it into a second charger?!? The Chargers don’t go above 6.6 so how can I take advantage of the 12kW?
Now on the Eva, I just find myself one of the many CCS chargers around here and be happy, right? But... they are expensive round here, just sayin’...
The point I was trying to make above is that the premium SRF provides 6.6kW of charging capacity via two 3.3kW chargers. Each charger is configured on different phases. A 7kW charging post is configured to only provide power on a single phase. That means that only one of the 3.3kW on-board chargers can be provided with power. Therefore the premium SRF will only charge at 3.3kW from a 7kW post. In order to charge the premium SRF at 6.6kW you need to find a 3 phase charging post. Those are the 11kW posts and above.
I hope that makes sense.
Why Zero couldn't just supply a single 6.6kW on-board charger, I don't know. There will be a lot of disappointed premium SRF customers with the current design. I have little faith in the dealerships educating prospective customers in this.
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Exactly why Zero should have included L3 charging. It would made life so simple. Instead of looking forward, Zero decided to play catchup later on.
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Wait a minute here!
Are you saying the premium SRF will only charge at 3.3 even if I plug it into a charge port which delivers 7kW? I don’t think that is correct, that review video with the British guy shows him charging on a 7kW port and the estimated time from empty to full was around 2 hours, which isn’t 3.3.
Someone clarify this please:)
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. Zero starts the warranty clock when they ship to the dealer not when you buy the bike so a "new" 2016 Zero would have no full coverage warranty. I don't know what Energica's rules are.
Either way it's sounds like you'll have a very nice bike in the near future. :)
Incorrect, at least in the UK. I bought my 2014DS in January 2016, which is when it was registered. Registration date should trigger the start of the warranty period. To prove the point, the BMS was replaced on my bike last Autumn. The warranty was extended to 3 years as a gesture of goodwill after a few warranty claims rendered my bike off-road for a few months.
If a dealer receives a bike and immediately registers it so it can be used as a demonstrator, then naturally the warranty starts from then.
That's my understanding and experience of it, at least. It would seem very unfair to do otherwise. Maybe different rules apply in different jurisdictions?
Come on Bonkers, I posted the exact warranty policy off Zero's website. Your right for what happened on your MY14, same as my MY13 but now that's changed and my statement about a MY16 or MY17 is correct.
I've talked to Zero reps at HQ and they will tell you when your bikes warranty runs out and it goes with the "shipment date" not when it's sold or even registered. (For a demo bike not one that's ordered) I sent them emails asking them to rethink this policy but so far they are sticking to it.
I'm not mad but our old warranty rules don't apply now and guys looking should know what they are getting into.
On the other subject on getting a new bike I'm glad to see you still have your DS and that SRF could be your reward for waiting through the other model years.
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Wait a minute here!
Are you saying the premium SRF will only charge at 3.3 even if I plug it into a charge port which delivers 7kW? I don’t think that is correct, that review video with the British guy shows him charging on a 7kW port and the estimated time from empty to full was around 2 hours, which isn’t 3.3.
Someone clarify this please:)
No that's not right. The "standard" SRF has 3.3kw charging. The "premium" comes with 6.6kw charging. You can add a charge tank later to add 6.6kw more charging to either setup.
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. Zero starts the warranty clock when they ship to the dealer not when you buy the bike so a "new" 2016 Zero would have no full coverage warranty. I don't know what Energica's rules are.
Either way it's sounds like you'll have a very nice bike in the near future. :)
Incorrect, at least in the UK. I bought my 2014DS in January 2016, which is when it was registered. Registration date should trigger the start of the warranty period. To prove the point, the BMS was replaced on my bike last Autumn. The warranty was extended to 3 years as a gesture of goodwill after a few warranty claims rendered my bike off-road for a few months.
If a dealer receives a bike and immediately registers it so it can be used as a demonstrator, then naturally the warranty starts from then.
That's my understanding and experience of it, at least. It would seem very unfair to do otherwise. Maybe different rules apply in different jurisdictions?
Come on Bonkers, I posted the exact warranty policy off Zero's website. Your right for what happened on your MY14, same as my MY13 but now that's changed and my statement about a MY16 or MY17 is correct.
I've talked to Zero reps at HQ and they will tell you when your bikes warranty runs out and it goes with the "shipment date" not when it's sold or even registered. (For a demo bike not one that's ordered) I sent them emails asking them to rethink this policy but so far they are sticking to it.
I'm not mad but our old warranty rules don't apply now and guys looking should know what they are getting into.
On the other subject on getting a new bike I'm glad to see you still have your DS and that SRF could be your reward for waiting through the other model years.
Ok, my mistake. I didn't realise it had changed. Apologies.
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Wait a minute here!
Are you saying the premium SRF will only charge at 3.3 even if I plug it into a charge port which delivers 7kW? I don’t think that is correct, that review video with the British guy shows him charging on a 7kW port and the estimated time from empty to full was around 2 hours, which isn’t 3.3.
Someone clarify this please:)
Yes, that's exactly right. The British guy doing the review for Bennetts charged twice. After his initial run the battery was empty. He plugged into a 7kW post and IIRC, the Zero reported charging at 2.8kW and time to full of something like three hours and 45 minutes. He spent 2hrs 30m in Bike Stop before returning to find SoC at 75%. I hope I've got that correct, I can't check just now.
That wasn't enough to get him home so he stopped for a coffee at a three phase AC charger to add a bit more. That gave him the full 6.6kW because the second 3.3kW unit was able to use the second phase.
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Wait a minute here!
Are you saying the premium SRF will only charge at 3.3 even if I plug it into a charge port which delivers 7kW? I don’t think that is correct, that review video with the British guy shows him charging on a 7kW port and the estimated time from empty to full was around 2 hours, which isn’t 3.3.
Someone clarify this please:)
No that's not right. The "standard" SRF has 3.3kw charging. The "premium" comes with 6.6kw charging. You can add a charge tank later to add 6.6kw more charging to either setup.
The way it works is that on the premium SRF they just fit an additional 3.3kW on-board charger. It is a separate unit that has to use a different phase of the AC supply, if one exists. They are mapped to phase 1 and 2 respectively. If you buy a charge tank, that is a 6.6kW unit which is wired to phase 3.
I just wish they hadn't done it that way and just developed a single 6.6kW on-board charger.
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Keep in mind the charging figures. Enerigica is super cool when you can charge via CCS but if you have to stick to AC charging, then there is only 3kW available. When you have plenty of DC charging stations thats a minor issue but if you plan a trip through the mountains (of Switzerland and Austria for excample), you'll find loads of AC stations but hardly any CCS. Hence I have ordered a SR/F premium with the additional 6kW.
At least in Austria the situation is not as grim as you put it. The attached screenshot shows all CCS chargers listed on goingelectric.de
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Regarding the charging:
I think in the video with the British guy, he said he plugged into a low voltage charger the first time. The second time was on a regular 7kW charger.
I think you are the only one contending that a premium SRF plugged into a 7kW charger will not charge at 6kW. I don’t think this is accurate from what I’ve read on this forum. What would be the point then of the premium charging option?
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There would be a mutiny if NA SRF premium owners could only charge at 3.3KW on L2 chargers (my home charger is rated at 7.7 and most around here are 7 - 10). I would accept having to use two ports for on the road 13.2 KW charging but NOT for 6.6. I still believe it was a mistake not having CCS charging and I am second guessing my order.
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I feel this certainly requires a solid and firm answer; too much speculation whether a US model premium can or can not charge at 6.6kW at the public J stations. I’ll head up to my dealer tomorrow (Hollywood Electric) and see if I can get this cleared up.
It would be madness if the two chargers were not capable of supporting our prevalent charging infrastructure here in California - for cryin’ out... the bike is built here! ;D
I’ll report back.
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I feel this certainly requires a solid and firm answer; too much speculation whether a US model premium can or can not charge at 6.6kW at the public J stations. I’ll head up to my dealer tomorrow (Hollywood Electric) and see if I can get this cleared up.
It would be madness if the two chargers were on two separate phases and therefore completely useless in our charging infrastructure here in the US...
I’ll report back.
That's great! I'll be interested to hear what you come back with.
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Y'all seem to be confusing our charger units with Zero's. The SR/F has 3 or 6kW onboard charging, not 3.3 or 6.6kW. The Energica also has a 3kW onboard unit.
Our digiNow units are 3.3, 6.6, or 9.9kW.
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Regarding the charging:
I think in the video with the British guy, he said he plugged into a low voltage charger the first time. The second time was on a regular 7kW charger.
I think you are the only one contending that a premium SRF plugged into a 7kW charger will not charge at 6kW. I don’t think this is accurate from what I’ve read on this forum. What would be the point then of the premium charging option?
The first charging post was a 'slow' charger, in his words. I've checked all the charging posts within walking distance of Bike Stop and they are all rated at 7kW. That means it is a single phase outlet and only one of the 3.3kW on-board chargers can be utilized. That is demonstrated when he plugs in and it only charges at 2.8kW and time to charge is 3hrs 47m. He returns after 2h 30m to a 75% SoC. That's your proof that the bike was only charging at 3kW from a 7kW post. Later he charges from a 3 phase rapid charger which can utilise both on-board chargers and charge at 6kW.
That's how it works here in Europe. In the UK, there are many more single phase 7kW posts than 3 phase rapid chargers, so yes, it's a problem.
It might be a different story with the charging infrastructure in the US.
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Y'all seem to be confusing our charger units with Zero's. The SR/F has 3 or 6kW onboard charging, not 3.3 or 6.6kW. The Energica also has a 3kW onboard unit.
Our digiNow units are 3.3, 6.6, or 9.9kW.
Yes, and that would help explain why the Bennetts reviewer only got 2.8kW going to the battery.
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There would be a mutiny if NA SRF premium owners could only charge at 3.3KW on L2 chargers (my home charger is rated at 7.7 and most around here are 7 - 10). I would accept having to use two ports for on the road 13.2 KW charging but NOT for 6.6. I still believe it was a mistake not having CCS charging and I am second guessing my order.
I got this from the SRF owners manual, regarding charging in Europe using the Mennekes standard:
Charging station requirements:
Single phase for Standard SR/F (single 3 kW charger)
3-Phase for Premium SR/F (to utilize second 3 kW
charger*
*Premium SR/F 3 kW charger utilizes power supplied from pin
specific to a 3-phase charging point.
On reviewing the US J1772 standard, it appears that it only supports a single phase AC supply:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
I think the on-board chargers are wired differently in the US so that they both draw from the same single phase, therefore both chargers are utilised when connecting to a single J plug.
The two different standards have created confusion. It's only here in Europe, for those of us using the Mennekes standard, that can only charge at 3kW from a 7kW post.
In the US, you can use a Y-adapter to combine the power from two J plugs and charge at 12kW if you have the charge tank fitted.
I hope that helps.
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At least in Austria the situation is not as grim as you put it. The attached screenshot shows all CCS chargers listed on goingelectric.de
Austria has a very good network indeed. Along the main routes they have lots of CCS. But in the side valleys it looks a bit different. Out of experience I know that these CCS chargers are sometimes out of service. And if you have only one charger every 100km it could get a bit tight with the range. At the moment you still do have a bigger choice with AC stations. So: no offence!
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Austria has a very good network indeed. Along the main routes they have lots of CCS. But in the side valleys it looks a bit different. Out of experience I know that these CCS chargers are sometimes out of service. And if you have only one charger every 100km it could get a bit tight with the range. At the moment you still do have a bigger choice with AC stations. So: no offence!
None taken! :) 150km range would be optimal for the current charging network. Let's hope for Energica to put the MotoGPe batteries in the 2020 bikes...
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I’ll head up to my dealer tomorrow (Hollywood Electric) and see if I can get this cleared up.
It would be madness if the two chargers were not capable of supporting our prevalent charging infrastructure here in California - for cryin’ out... the bike is built here! ;D
I’ll report back.
I just got back from the dealer - and they confirmed that in the US (EU/Mennekes operates differently) the standard J-1772 chargers mostly operate on 7kW (only rarely more) and the SR/F premium can indeed charge with the full 6.6kW. So all is good here in the US for prospect Premium owners :-)
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I’ll head up to my dealer tomorrow (Hollywood Electric) and see if I can get this cleared up.
It would be madness if the two chargers were not capable of supporting our prevalent charging infrastructure here in California - for cryin’ out... the bike is built here! ;D
I’ll report back.
I just got back from the dealer - and they confirmed that in the US (EU/Mennekes operates differently) the standard J-1772 chargers mostly operate on 7kW (only rarely more) and the SR/F premium can indeed charge with the full 6.6kW. So all is good here in the US for prospect Premium owners :-)
That's great news! Thanks for clarifying.
It's beyond me why the two on-board chargers are configured differently for EU bikes. Why not wire up both on-board chargers to phase 1 as they do in the US? The charge tank could then be wired up to phase 2 and phase 3 could just go unused. If anyone knows the answer, I'd be most grateful to hear it. All of these differences just create confusion. It would be much simpler if we just had one worldwide standard for charging.
Oh, I think I've just worked this out... Apparently 10kW, 3 phase charging posts are quite common on the European continent. That means each phase only supplies 3.3kW. Therefore, my suggestion would mean that a premium SRF would only charge at 3kW from a 10kW post. So Zero choose to hobble us here in the UK in favour of our continental friends. There's a whiff of Brexit about all of this! [emoji23]
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Yes, you did figure it out Bonkers :)
Most of the chargers in Europe are 11kW (16A, 230V, 3phase) where each phase can only supply 3.6 kW or they are 22kW (3 phase 32A per phase)
Much rarer are the fast chargers of 43kW (63 Amps, 3 phase).
It is different in every country though. In the Netherlands the vast majority is of the 3 phase 16A kind (11 kW)
3 phase 32A chargers (22 kW) are far less common (about 1:10) but still you would find at least a few 22kW in every city.
Germany and france are different as most of the chargers there are 22kW chargers (3 phase 32A)
Apparantly the UK uses more single phase 32A stations (7.2 kW) and then it would make more sense to put both 3kW chargers of the SR/F on the same phase 1.
So to recap.
An SR/F premium with charge tank on a 3 phase station would get around 9kW on a 11kW charger and the full 12 kW on a 22kW or 43kW station.
It would get only 3kW on a single phase charger, whether the charger is 3.6 kW or 7.2kW. So it's best to avoid those.
Not so nice if you live in a country that has a lot of single phase chargers :(
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I have not ridden the SR/F so I can not give my own oppinion, but everyone I have let ride the Energica EVA we have says it is a lot more powerful than the SR/F. I personally do not know as I have not ridden the SR/F, but I do trust my friends. Also, the 20 min DC charge is a game changer.