ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Gmaskell6809 on March 13, 2020, 11:19:58 PM
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Hello all, I hope this finds you well.
Forgive me for anything that may sound stupid. I’m still learning about evokes and bikes in general.
I’m 28 yrs, 5’ 9” 165# if that helps anyone.
Firstly, I’m interested in the DS because it’s reliable, doesn’t need gas, i will be using it as a commuter.
I understand that with anything there will be a learning curve, however i think i want to purchase this bike because it has the custom setting. As you know can adjust top speed and torque percent.
That leads me to my question, is it possible to set the torque settings to simulate, say a 250 - 500 CC gas bike in power, etc. allowing my to purchase one bike and still be able to grow with it. Yes i know it will be on its side at times, which i think would be better than for a gas engine, because it wouldn’t have the oil intrusion or other broken things, potentially. Also the DS shows its about 350# which seems more manageable than other “beginner” bikes. I wouldn’t want anything less than 500-650cc if i were to get a gas bike.
Has anyone worked out what torque percentages would be to equate to other bikes engine sizes, or am i off base thinking about it that way?
I live in Southern California, if that matters.
Thank you for any and all help.
I’m still shopping for bikes, but i like the sound of this potential option that can be customized to grow with me.
I have driven manual cars and an ATV, but that was a long time ago.
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Welcome to EMF!
Yes you can change the custom settings to simulate a smaller engine bike. It just takes some practice fiddling with the numbers in the app.
Peak torque on the DS is around 106Nm, and a ninja 250 is 21Nm @ 10000RPM. This would be all settings maxed, probably in sport mode. youd want to adjust the slider way down and just work your way up.
No-Shame plug: I actually just listed my DS for sale here and on FB Marketplace. PM me and I'd be happy to tell you more about my experience with the DS. And I would offer a discount should you want mine!
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I'm an inch taller and a little heavier and I find the DS a bit tall. But that's part of its charm, letting you have more vertical maneuvering space.
I usually ride with my torque set to 40% and my 2014 is much less powerful than the newer bikes. You can turn it up and down on the fly by selecting modes while the throttle is released. You can change what the modes mean in the phone app.
You can make it slower to accelerate by turning down torque, and I did that for my CMSP test... 1% is darn sluggish!
-Crissa
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I'm 5'10" but have short legs with a 30" inseam, and I'm quite light at about 150lbs and don't have my sag set correctly, but I do fine with my DS. I can't flat foot both feet but I can do one or get my toes down on both, enough that it's not too difficult to push it backwards on flat ground. No issues putting my foot down when stopped, that said I don't do it as often as when I rode a gas bike because it's so easy to ride super slow behind crawling traffic.
As for the torque, you can emulate the peak torque of a particular gas bike (100% is 106Nm as mentioned, so what you set the percentage to will be close to the torque value). However it won't feel quite the same because the torque is controlled by the throttle position (wide open throttle is 100% of the set torque, half open throttle is 50% of the set torque, and so on) so you don't need to wait for the revs of the engine to build. Also this is just comparing the torque of the motor or engine, torque at the wheel will vary and the gas bike will vary depending on which gear you're in. Basically, trying to match a gas bike for specs is kind of pointless and you should instead just start off low and raise it as you feel comfortable.
Coming from a 125cc with like 1/10th the torque, a years riding experience and used to going full throttle all the time, I managed fine in eco mode to start off with (40% torque). It didn't take too long for me to set up a custom mode with 60% torque and that's now what I use most of the time when commuting, and then I stick it in sport mode (100% torque) if I really want to have some fun.
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First, don't worry about the power. You won't be able to use it anywhere but a straight line without many hours of practice and a few crashes. If you never go to the track, and don't ride like you're on a track, you'll never figure out the power. So be realistic.
Second, if power is that important, you want a DSR not a DS. And if power is really important, and you want to race people, you want a gas bike. No iffs ands or butts. For the price of a DS, you can get a 1000CC supersport that will leave everything for dead, possibly including you.
Third, gas bike CC alone is almost totally meaningless. So stop talking like that. A 250 race bike might make 40 hp. A Ninja 250 might make 25. A 650 might make half the power of a 600. Talk about power, or power to weight instead.
Fourth, it seems like what you may actually be getting at is you want a great powerband with great torque always available. This is one of the premier strength of ebikes. You will always have plenty of grunt, even if the bike isn't that fast.
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I know there's a motor difference between the S and its R sub models in earlier years, bt I think they did away with it in the newer model years?
-Crissa
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Nah it's different, well the difference is between the 7.2 and 14.4 but Yanks don't get a 14.4 non-R so it's essentially an R and non-R difference. I assume OP is after the 7.2 based on the weight he mentioned, although he's about 10kg over.
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Hey everyone, thanks for the responses. They have all been helpful.
Let me clear some things up.
The reason i was wondering about torque settings, was because this would be my first motorcycle, ever. I’ve been told that since it’s electric it’s margin for error is a lot less than a conventional bike, which makes sense. Seeing as the power is there nearly instantly, i was concerned with making sure I’d be able to limit it to be able to get used to riding more, as opposed to buying a gas bike on the smaller end and then in a year or two desiring a bigger/more powerful bike.
I’m not planning to race anyone, drive like a fool, or the like. I only want to get it to commute/errands. I’m 28 married with a little girl, i like seeing them. Lol
I am looking at a DS due to it’s price point and current desired use, 20 mile round trip to work, roughly. And maybe around town.
I am going to take an equivalent of the MRC course, it’s through the Marine Corps. I will be using their bikes, which are gas. But i like the idea of just plugging it into a plug in my parking garage and not needing to go to the pump. Plus, while I am a mechanic for helicopters I don’t really want to worry about another vehicle with maintenance and other things. tires and brakes i can deal with. belt occasionally, okay. So those things appeal too me.
Some people have said that it’s too much bike for a beginner, and that’s why i asked about “turning it down” or “adjusting the settings” and the only thing i think you can adjust would be percent of total torque, max speed, charge rate, etc..
Thanks again for helping me out with this information.
How much of a difference is the sitting position between the S and DS? I know from the Zero website there is about a 1” seat height difference, but I’m curious about the position. Thanks again.
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It was my first bike, too! I just started riding last August, and finally completed licensing at the end of last month.
You can turn torque way down. Like waaaaay down. It's very well behaved. Most of the people who say it's too much of a bike came from a bigger bike with less response and then tried it in Sport (everything all up) mode. As long as you're used to the fact that EVs are basically instant torque, and know to turn that down when you don't want it, you're fine.
I never noticed it. My spouse (with thirty years riding) took a spill on wet pavement. I think it's only a risk to the complacent experienced rider, not a newbie or EV rider.
The Dual-Sport version has different pegs than the S and is slightly more upright?
-Crissa
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I never noticed it. My spouse (with thirty years riding) took a spill on wet pavement. I think it's only a risk to the complacent experienced rider, not a newbie or EV rider.
The actual amount of instantaneous torque leccy bikes produce is actually considerably less than an ICE - I think my little 690 produces some insane instantaneous figure like 1500lbft. And for a significant proportion of its cycle it actually produces negative torque! But its mean torque, averaging the instantaneous torque over two cycles, is 55lbft, and that goes through a gearbox which transforms it into linear thrust, etc. etc. blah.
BUT! Us old codgers have gotten used to the fact that having torque gobbed out in lumps means our tyres slip fractionally, then stop still momentarily and glue to the road. For a given level of thrust, we've got a remarkable amount of grip. The less cylinders you have, the more time your tyre has to sit still and glue itself to the road, and this is why everyone off-roading rides a single*. Where am I going with this?
Well, electric bikes don't have any point in their cycle where the torque lets off and lets the tyre grip. This means that if you open the throttle just a tiny bit too far, the tyre will lose grip permanently, and it will instantly spin up, never regaining traction. The S/DS/SR/DSR don't have any electronic intervention to counter this - like most petrol bikes now seem to be coming with.
Us old codgers therefore have learned how far and how fast we can yank the throttle based on how we perceive the traction to be when torque is delivered in pulses and the fact that it builds up from a low amount to a large amount. So we're pretty likely to yank the throttle on an EV and be hit by the double stupid of instantly making all the torque, but even worse, for a given level of thrust, very little indication of traction until it instantly lets go and spits us off.
For this reason alone I'd be dead reluctant to own an S/SR/DS/DSR because I'm almost certainly going to highside or lowside it eventually on a bit of mud or grease of which we have plenty here in rural Somerset, trying to accelerate with no more force than my 690 in the same situation.
The SR/F otoh... has Bosch traction control.
Personally... I'd wait until the smaller electric bikes get full TC.
Haha, bit of a rant.
Cas :)
* Guess why nobody ever wanted to make a V12 motorcycle
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[BUT! Us old codgers have gotten used to the fact that having torque gobbed out in lumps
That's the opposite of instant torque, though. Yes, you're used to the ICE motor always having lag in it.
-Crissa
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I'm jealous. Young, 5'9" 165# in Southern California. Honestly any motorcycle on the planet was made for you. Those of us 6'3" have a harder time.
Good luck with your decision! I'm loving my Zero FXS.
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I agree with Crissa. An electric motorcycle is perfect for a new rider. On Zeros you can dial the torque and throttle response down to any level that you feel comfortable with.
The problem with electric motorcycles for those of us used to ICE power is that they don't have any flywheel effect to slow down wheel spin if the tire breaks traction. But with the throttle response setting on ECO, you should not have any problem on a Zero, even while riding in the rain. Just be careful accelerating out of tight corners when wet, like freeway on-ramps, that might be kind of oily. Even if your rear tire should spin a bit while leaving a stop in a straight line on wet pavement, you will feel the bike shutter a bit and then straighten out, recover and proceed normally.
If you can afford it, get the Zero. But if you are worried about crashing while learning to ride, buy a cheap used ICE bike and do any crashing on that until you get the hang of riding. Just wear good armored riding gear and you should be fine. I think we all crash a few times when learning how to ride. I did, my daughter did, and I don't know anyone who didn't crash during the first couple of years of learning how to ride. Just use common sense while riding in traffic and don't do anything that you wouldn't do while driving your car and you should be fine.
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Crashing is a thing... as you say, I'd rather do it on something that costs £1000 not £10000. Get a 10 year old SV650 or somesuch and crash that first - it's cheap enough that if you properly bend it you can literally throw it away instead of bothering to fix it.
Cas :)
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> First, don't worry about the power. ...
As long as you respect it and don't grab handfulls of throttle 😀
Roll on the accelerator, don't jerk, and you'll be fine.
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After repairing the plastics on my Zero, I'd say the Zero generally suffers less costly damage from being dropped than other bikes. My plastics cost about the same at other bike's sliders.
Now if only I had front fork sliders it would be about immune to drops.
-Crissa
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In regards to crashing, unless it's a higher speed crash that completely writes off the bike with major damage (cracked frame for example) the fact that it's more expensive than a gas bike doesn't really matter. In a low speed drop it's going to suffer less damage, no clutch lever to snap, no gear lever and shift mechanism to bend, no engine cases to get scratched or cracked. Because it lacks some of those parts that can be damaged it's also more likely that you'll be able to ride the bike home after a crash. The parts that would be damaged are going to be the same as on a gas bike and a similar cost to replace, snapped foot pegs, bent bars, scuffed axle nuts (if you don't fit sliders), scratched plastics.
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Well, electric bikes don't have any point in their cycle where the torque lets off and lets the tyre grip. This means that if you open the throttle just a tiny bit too far, the tyre will lose grip permanently, and it will instantly spin up, never regaining traction. The S/DS/SR/DSR don't have any electronic intervention to counter this - like most petrol bikes now seem to be coming with.
I'm sorry, but this is simply not true.. I got a spinup some months back, doing a turn on wet road. My instant reaction was turning the throttle all the way back, making the engine go into regen mode instead of throttle, easing the spin. Secondly i tucked in and down, and turned the steering to counteract and managed to regain traction and keep the bike upright while getting onto the road i was aiming to turn into.
TLDR: Spinups can happen yes, but throttle control pacifies "the problem".
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The whole electric wheelspin thing has been hugely overblown by incompetent riders. The actual problem is the bike makes huge torque from a dead stop with no warning whereas with most gas bikes you have to rev em up at least a little. This isn't an issue for a competent rider who is always calculating where the traction is and how much is available. But since that's a difficult skill you will only learn riding on track we are hearing many many tales of unqualified users dropping electric bikes after an ambitious throttle twist and blaming the machine.
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Of course, those who have experience with electric, or learn electric, aren't going to have that problem. If it's what you started on, you're just going to expect that.
-Crissa
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No, really... this is why there are no inline fours off road. It's why Yamaha's crossplane 4 is so devastating out of corner exits compared to the other inline 4s. It's why Ducati has a particularly curious firing order on their V4, and why Honda used a different crank on their RC30s back in the day compared to the VFRs. This stuff actually makes a huge difference on bikes. The difference on bikes not being "ooh a bit of wheelspin, titter chortle that was fun" but instead "er ARGH <skrrrk> FUCK <kkksssss> FUCK ouch ouch". I've ridden every type of engine there is for a motorcycle (except a 6) and the difference in traction for different engine configurations is stark. The electric motor immediately made me feel uneasy when I road it - there is no warning, no feel of traction. Modulation of throttle control will not help you - instead of lowsiding you will highside which is considerably worse.
Anyway... you don't have to believe me, carry on finding out the expensive and painful way :) But if you've got the cash... get the SR/F.
Cas :)
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Thank you for providing evidence for my assertion, Cas. Every configuration is different, and what you're used to is what you're used to. I'm used to electric. There's no delay. You can't rev the motor because that's bad on an electric.
I also have my own spouse, who spun it up and out pulling out of our neighborhood. She low-sided.
You're no more likely to high-side; although the regen bounce might do that, that's why traction control and control over the regen are features we should look for in the future.
-Crissa
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I wonder though, how do you get used to electric, when the margin for error is so narrow? Which is what I'm getting at... are you used to it, or just lucky so far?
Cas :)
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I don't think it's that narrow, spinning up the rear wheel doesn't mean you'll automatically go down. I've done it a few times and I wouldn't say my recoveries have been down to luck, it's a combination of quick reactions (closing the throttle) and favourable conditions (not being leaned over too much). I think riding a bit off road can also help, you can purposely and easily get the wheel spinning at low speeds to see what it's like and regaining traction isn't as abrupt.
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And knowing that it will spin up quickly - you're used to that effect, so it's not an edge you push. You turn down torque as conditions require, or just be easier on the throttle.
And this risk comes only with the older models, but the reactions come with any instant-on EV. While EVs come with tons of safety advantages like no chance of selecting the wrong gear or clutching wrong or being unable to request the power you need going up or down hills...
-Crissa