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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Michael11 on March 27, 2019, 03:20:09 PM

Title: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Michael11 on March 27, 2019, 03:20:09 PM
I am facing a loss in battery capacity, which is frightening me.

My Zero SR16 ZF13.0 has not been used in the last 8 months. It was standing at about 80% SOC in my garage. Now I charged it to 100% and went out for a ride. Everything smooth, except the range estimation was rather low: at a mixed riding between 50-80km/h I typically always got at least 150km range, this time the estimate was 100-120km.

I thought that my Zero needs more usage, so I rode and charged it several times over the last days. The range estimation and the range I achieved (e.g. 56km when SOC went down to 52%) were still too low. I then remembered that I had the "Zero Voltage" app, which also shows battery capacity. So, I opened it and it showed at that time (90% SOC) "75/80Ah".

I thought  "80Ah"? That's too low! The battery should have >100Ah. So, I went to a friend of mine, who had been a local dealer but then closed his business. He pulled the logs from the bike and showed me this:

ZERO MBB> bms


****************************************
*               BMS Data               *
****************************************

*************  BMS #0  ***************
  - BMS Board Rev             :  03
  - BMS Firmware Rev          :  40
  - BMS Serial Number         : 2015_bms_48e0f7_02634
  - Battery Serial Number     : 16xxxxxx
  - CAN Rx in last second     :  167

  - Pack SOC                  :  56%
  - Fuel Gauge                :  54%
  - Age of SOC Data           :  37 ms

  - Model Year                : 2016
  - Pack Capacity             :  81 AH
  - Pack Capacity Remaining   :  43 AH
  - Total Energy Used         : 293 KWH
  - Number Of Bricks          :   4

  - Pack Discharge Current    :   0 A
  - Pack Sum Voltage          :  103.863 V
  - Sag-Adj Pack Sum Voltage  :  103.876 V
  - Bank Voltages             :     1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28
                              :  3705 3708 3707 3708 3710 3709 3710 3710 3709 3709 3709 3710 3708 3709 3708 3710 3709 3710 3708 3711 3710 3711 3709 3710 3710 3710 3711 3708
  - Lowest Cell Voltage       :  3705 mV ( Cell 1 )
  - Highest Cell Voltage      :  3711 mV ( Cell 20 )
  - Pack Balance              :  5 mV
  - Lowest Cell mV            :  3706 mV
  - Age of Bank Voltage Data  :  81 ms

  - Isolation Resistance      :  32766 KOhms (0x7FFE)
  - Least Isolated Cell       :  28
  - Instant Iso Resistance    :  1 KOhms (0x0001)
  - Instant Least Iso Cell    :  28

                              :      0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7
  - Pack Temps                :    17C   18C   17C   18C   18C   18C   18C   18C
  - Lowest Present Pack Temp  :  17 C
  - Max Pack Temp This Ride   :  18 C
  - Min Pack Temp This Ride   :  17 C
  - Age of BMS Temp Data      :  79 ms

  - Min Discharge Temp        :  -30 C
  - Max Charge Temp           :  50 C
  - Min Charge Temp           :  0 C
  - Max Charge C-Rate         :  1.0
  - Min Discharge C-Rate      :  7.5
  - Discharge Scale Value     :   255/255

  - Num Charge Cycles         :  64

  - BMS Total Bike Run Time   :  00:01:54
  - BMS Clock                 :  03/27/2019 00:49:08 ( 1553672948, 0x5C9B2AF4 )
  - Age of BMS Time Data      :  192 ms

  - Age of BMS Status Data    :  205 ms
  - Discrete Throttle En      :  Enabled


So, the line "Pack capacity" shows "81 AH". The ex-dealer told me that he normally sees "104 AH" at that place. So, he concluded, he thinks my battery is defect.

Is there anybody who can confirm that? Or has some other explanation?

Thanks for any help!
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: MostlyBonkers on March 27, 2019, 03:42:24 PM
The question that comes to my mind is:

What's the ambient temperature you're riding in?

It's the only thing I can think of right now. Perhaps cold weather is affecting your range?
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Michael11 on March 27, 2019, 04:49:05 PM
Temperature is pretty normal for spring here: between 10 and 18 °C. The bike is also always prewarmed (as it is located in my garage, which is at 18°C).
I never had that in the last three years. And it is the very first time I see this "81 AH" pack capacity.  :(
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on March 27, 2019, 10:45:21 PM
The firmware adjusts the pack capacity estimation dynamically, and might need recalibration from more rides.

Try riding it more, and try using more of the capacity and then charging to full.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Michael11 on March 27, 2019, 11:28:48 PM
The firmware adjusts the pack capacity estimation dynamically, and might need recalibration from more rides.

Try riding it more, and try using more of the capacity and then charging to full.
Thanks for the info. So you mean, this could just be a miscalculation of the BMS, maybe due to the long stand time?
Is the only way to verify this by driving it down to zero SOC? (Never done that before. The lowest SOC I ever had was 2%, and that was responsible for lots of sweating on my side.)
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Doug S on March 28, 2019, 01:30:30 AM
It does seem, from my experience, that lower discharges trigger more "recal" activity than lesser discharges, in some way. Whether there's just a threshold battery voltage you have to cross or whatever, I'm not sure, but lower discharges do seem to have more effect.

Set up a short loop around your house and ride around it until you get to 10% or so. You shouldn't be at too much risk of having to push, and if you do, it won't be too far.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Moto7575 on March 28, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
If you followed the charging instructions and if the capacity falls then you should get a new battery.
I'm just curious how not driving a bike could damage the battery... Fault in the BMS ?
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Electric Cowboy on March 29, 2019, 03:01:00 AM
Not ridden in 8 months, likely needs a firmware update bad. Thats from smack in the middle of the firmware wars.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Michael11 on March 29, 2019, 01:27:56 PM
Short update:

So I went to a ride yesterday, trying to drain the battery as much as possible. I started recording the battery voltages in between to be sure that I won't get stranded somewhere:

27% : 101.12V
14% : 99.50V
11% : 98.90V
 4% : 97.77V
 0% : 96.8V (135km)
95.0V (145km)

When SOC showed 0% I had traveled 135km on the full charge. I was able to get another 10km until the bike went into "limb" mode. That was fortunately only about 0.5km away from my home, so it was easily possible to get back.

At home, I charged the bike over night to full SOC. Now the "Zero Voltage app" shows "97 AH" as full capacity. So, this indeed demonstrates that "Pack Capacity" is only calculated. So, no clear indicator of what the health of the battery is.

Its calculated capacity of "97 AH" is, however, still significantly below what to expect of a 2016 13.0 battery, if I read the unofficial manual correctly (which states 100AH for a 2013 model and probably at least 10% more for the 2016er). And additionally, the range estimation is now at 142km, which is pretty close to the 145km I managed to get. This is still very much on the low side, I think. I remember that I typically had 150km at the very least, in most cases between 160 and 220km, depending on the mixture of country vs city riding.

Today I will let my local dealer do a firmware update. Then I will see over the next days, what range I am still able to reach. Now, that the "Pack Capacity" is not really a measured value, I guess it would be difficult to prove battery degradation only on the range.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Doug S on March 29, 2019, 07:55:31 PM
Brandon mentioned the "firmware wars". Welcome to the trenches.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: MVetter on March 29, 2019, 11:56:06 PM
And for reference the 13kWh monolith should read 104Ah if it's happy and healthy.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Michael11 on March 31, 2019, 12:08:23 AM
So, I had my dealer do a firmware update yesterday. Interestingly, immediately after the update the Pack Capacity went back to 104 Ah. The SOC was at 90% at that time. The expected remaining range jumped to 230km (which is far too much).
I then rode the bike down to about 10% SOC. I reached 153km with a remaining expected range of 21km (so altogether about 173km). The pack capacity remained at 104Ah. I am currently charging again to 100% and will then see what happens over the next days.

So far, it looks as the firmware update resolved the issue mostly.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: DPsSRnSD on March 31, 2019, 02:58:47 AM
And for reference the 13kWh monolith should read 104Ah if it's happy and healthy.
Hmm, I guess I'm going to have to start paying attention to this. Today I'm reading 79Ah with the Zero Voltage app.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: alpha1511 on March 31, 2019, 09:35:21 PM
My bike is 2015 Zero S ZF12.5
I noticed the same problem after I charge to 100% today.
The app showed only 88 Amp hour at 100% SoC.

My MBB firmware version is 52.
And I don't know the BMS version, it seems not in the logs?
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Michael11 on April 01, 2019, 02:48:45 PM
My bike is 2015 Zero S ZF12.5
I noticed the same problem after I charge to 100% today.
The app showed only 88 Amp hour at 100% SoC.

My MBB firmware version is 52.
And I don't know the BMS version, it seems not in the logs?
I would recommend to follow the advice given to me in this thread. So, update the firmware and then ride the bike down to a SOC around 10% and recharge. It helped me.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Michael11 on April 01, 2019, 02:53:12 PM
One other question:

I am monitoring the pack Capacity, battery voltage and SOC now very carefully. During the last charging I wanted to monitor the end voltage after charging. I experienced a strange phenomenom: The voltage shown on the "Zero Voltage App" went up to 116.9 V, then the bike turned off, even though the charger was still emitting some 5-9A charging current.

I have never seen that before. Typically the bike remains on in charging mode until I unplug the 220V cable. Is this a new behaviour of the new firmware or is the charger defect and the bike turns off to protect the battery? (116.9V seemed pretty high to me)
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: BamBam on April 01, 2019, 09:48:09 PM
Typically the bike remains on in charging mode until I unplug the 220V cable. Is this a new behaviour of the new firmware or is the charger defect and the bike turns off to protect the battery? (116.9V seemed pretty high to me)
There is nothing wrong.  That is the way the system is suppose to behave.  Earlier firmware versions had a glitch were the charging light would stay on when the bike was 100% charged.  You had to turn the key to on and then off to get the light to go out.  Looks like the new firmware update has corrected that.  My 2017 DSR still has the glitch.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Richard230 on April 02, 2019, 03:53:35 AM
Typically the bike remains on in charging mode until I unplug the 220V cable. Is this a new behaviour of the new firmware or is the charger defect and the bike turns off to protect the battery? (116.9V seemed pretty high to me)
There is nothing wrong.  That is the way the system is suppose to behave.  Earlier firmware versions had a glitch were the charging light would stay on when the bike was 100% charged.  You had to turn the key to on and then off to get the light to go out.  Looks like the new firmware update has corrected that.  My 2017 DSR still has the glitch.

My 2018 S still has that glitch and it has all of the available MMB and BMS firmware installed. My dealer has no idea what to to about it and sending my logs to Zero via one of their customer service employees never elicited a response.  :(
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: BamBam on April 02, 2019, 06:54:31 AM
I noticed that with my bike the light only stays on (and I assume the contactor also stays closed) when I charge to 100%.  If I charge to something less than that then the light goes out as it should.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Michael11 on April 02, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
I think, we are talking about different issues. You seem to be referring to a "glitch" that keeps the light on, even after the 220V cord is detached, right?

My experience with the old firmware was:
- Bike keyed off
- 220V cable attached
- bike turns on into charging mode: green like turns on and flashes, dash turns on and shows current SOC and remaining charging time
- when bike is 100% charged, green light stops flashing and stays on solid, dash keeps showing 100% and 0:00 time charging remaining
- when I then pull the 220V cable, the bike turns off

My experience with the new firmware is:
- Bike keyed off
- 220V cable attached
- bike turns on into charging mode: green like turns on and flashes, dash turns on and shows current SOC and remaining charging time
- when bike is 100% charged, BIKE TURNS OFF: green light off and dash off!
- when I then pull the 220V cable, nothing more happens (well, the bike is off already)
- when I reconnect the 220V cable, bike turns on again, goes into charging mode for a short time (less then one minute), then turns off again as before

That is a new behavior for me. Is that normal now?

Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: Richard230 on April 02, 2019, 08:01:08 PM
That sounds normal to me. 

In my case, with the key turned off, the 120V battery cable connected, the green light flashes while the bike is charging. The SOC is displayed, along with a very accurate time to a full charge also shows on the dash. 

When the bike is fully charged, the green light will stop flashing and remain steady.  When that happens, I have 10 minutes to pull the charging cord and then the contactor switch will click and the green light will go off.  However, if I wait more than 10 minutes before disconnecting the charging cord, the contactor will not click off and the green light will stay on.

To get it to turn off, I will have to turn on the ignition switch, then the contactor switch will click twice and the bike will be ready to go.  once I do that I can turn off the ignition switch and the contactor will click again and the green charging light will finally turn off.

If I do not go through that procedure and leave the charging light on, it will stay on until I start the bike again and will loose about 1% SOC each day.

So I make it a habit to always pull the charger cord as soon as the green light goes steady and if I miss doing so in time and the light will not go off, I will just turn on the ignition and then of again to bring my bike to a dormant state. Not a major deal, just irritating.
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: BamBam on April 02, 2019, 08:54:23 PM
Agree, your bike is functioning normal.  Stop worrying and start riding!
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: alpha1511 on April 05, 2019, 09:02:27 PM
I update my firmware to MBB53 and BMS 43.
The zero software wouldn't let my bike update to MBB54 and BMS46 as their firmware web page shows.
The dealer is asking zero technician.

But after the update, the capacity AMPhrs shows 100 instead of 108.
And capacity kWhour shows 11.6 instead of 12.5.

I will try to discharge the battery to lower than 10%, and see if the reading back to normal...
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: nnelson65 on May 17, 2019, 10:47:41 PM
Is that Zero Voltage app available for apple products?  I didn't find it in the App Store.  I foolishly updated to the latest revision of the Zero app on my iphone recently, and a LOT of useful information is no longer available...annoying!
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on May 29, 2019, 11:43:43 PM
Is that Zero Voltage app available for apple products?  I didn't find it in the App Store.  I foolishly updated to the latest revision of the Zero app on my iphone recently, and a LOT of useful information is no longer available...annoying!

On Apple's App Store, the MFi program means that Apple will not let you distribute your application publicly unless the accessory manufacturer adds you to an approved partner list.

Zero, being an extremely risk averse company, does not want to endorse any third party apps for data collection. I tried. So, Android devices running data-logging apps are fair game but not iOS. I keep a crappy Android device for this purpose, but I never use it because it's really inconvenient and clunky.

https://mfi.apple.com/MFiWeb/getFAQ.action
Title: Re: Severe battery degradation?
Post by: gt13013 on May 31, 2019, 02:49:18 PM
Android devices also allow you to revert to older versions of the Zero Application. You can find them here: https://apkpure.com/zero-motorcycles/com.ZeroMotorcycles/versions
I attach a file with the comparison of what is displayed by the last 4 versions (on my bike).

As suggested by BrianTRice, iPhone users could get a cheap Android phone just to get more info from their Zero  ;)