ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: WindRider on April 03, 2013, 07:57:48 AM
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In the 2012 Zero DS owners manual Zero suggests that the motorcycle should be plugged in immediately after riding and the batteries should not be left in a discharged state.
Where I live my power company offers lower cost power after 9 PM at night. If I get home anywhere from 6-8 PM and do not immediately plug in the bike to start the charging process are there any negative effects to the battery pack long or short term?
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The bike should be fine if you leave it unplugged for a few days at 50%. The 2012 manual says to plug it in at least once a week, or within 24 hours if discharged down to cutoff.
Self-discharge for the 2012 bikes (presumably 2013s too?) should be very low, perhaps 1% per day or so.
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Thanks for the reply ProtoMech.
Really glad that I found this forum full of knowledgeable, helpful people.
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I have done 2000 miles only charging between midnight and 7am for the same reason as you and i haven't noticed any issues.
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I often let my Bike sit for ~16 hours at 80% charge. So far, no noticeable issues.
I charge at work, then ride home and then back the next morning and charge again. It saves me pennies but I like the feeling of making my employer pay for my "fuel" ;). I let it sit all weekend at home plugged in, and of course it's plugged in at work for 8-10 hours straight each weekday. Hopefully that's enough for balancing.
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All Lithium battery chemistry like LiMn ( Zero 2008 -2011) and LiPo ( sero 2012 and 2013) have a “more confortable†SOC area at about 40-60% SOC. Keeping any lithium powered device fully charged all the time will oxidize the electrode and cells will loose capacity and have an increase of internal resistance.
The problem of leaving a empty battery not charged for long period is that the BMS that continuously draw current on it might bleed the cells too low and make the BMS cut and refuse to charge due to low voltage cut off detection and hysteresis that make the cell to not comeback to acceptable voltage above the low voltage cut.
This often happen with lithium power tools.
I have my 2011 DS Battery that I charge once a month to ensure it is to about 60% SOC and it work great. The battery self discharge is really low . I have the last BMS version o fthe 2011 I installed on it
I would not leave it fully charged and connected for long period.
Doc
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Then why does Zero recommend that you always keep the charger plugged in all of the time you are not riding the bike?
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because it safer and more range when fully charged as opposed to left discharge and batteries go flat, if li-ion go too low charger won't charge. This has happened to some Tesla cars left at long term parking at airports. Very expensive fix as better pack needs replacing. The oxidation problem is if left permanently on charge for months or years with no discharge like some laptops plunged in 24/7 for months at a time.
I don't think it be problem if you ride your bike often.
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I like that theory: just ride more!
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Then why does Zero recommend that you always keep the charger plugged in all of the time you are not riding the bike?
Cynical view: Zero has fewer support issues if batteries degrade slightly more quickly over 5-8 years than they do if batteries over-discharge while sitting off charge.
The simplest way to ensure battery safety is to keep the bike plugged in whenever possible. Floating the battery at a mid SOC is probably even better, but may not make that much difference if you ride every day. My bike's battery spends half its time at or charging to 100% and half its time around 70%.
It'd be nice to see two modes for charging, "max longevity" that stops charge at 4.0 or 4.1v per cell and "max range" that stops charging at 4.2v.
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Yeah, I agree, it depend ALOT of the period cycle of use. mine is 6 month a year in teh garage waiting to have our Canadian winter to finish ::).. I just can't leave it connected all teh time to not prematurely damage the cells.
I observed that the vinal voltage i get on myne with all the cells well balanced is about 4.15V and not 4.20. this help a bit at least to prolong the battery life.
See mt 1 to 32s battery checker i made to test and monitor all my EV... I connected it to the adaptor i made on my zero and it show in real time all voltages of my 14 battery banks
Doc
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Interesting responses.
For winter storage would it be best to leave the bike plugged in all winter or unplug it for a couple of weeks and let the voltage fall a little?
Probably best to load the bike up and head somewhere more Southerly so that it can be ridden a little mid winter? Someone please recommend this as the best thing to do with a Zero in the interest of battery health and longevity!
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According to my 2012 Zero S owner's manual (page 2.2):
4. The Zero S/DS power pack should be plugged in when storing the motorcycle for extended periods of time.
5. Keep your Zero S/DS connected to the charger when your motorcycle is sitting in storage or if it will be sitting unused for more than 7 days.
The power pack must be charged within 24 hours if fully discharged, and charged within 60 days if stored fully charged. Zero recommends that you plug in your Zero motorcycle after 7 days even if charged. Please leave your Zero motorcycle plugged in whenever possible.
6. The power pack does not require or tolerate deep discharging. To get the most power pack life, recharge each power pack immediately after each ride. Leaving a power pack in a discharged state will cause damage.
So it sounds to me like Zero is pretty clear about wanting the bike to be on the charger all the time, including during long-term storage (although that comment about charging it within 60 days is a little confusing). ???
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I keep my 'regular' bike batteries on Battery Tenders all winter. It's like a little forest of green lights in the barn. I know it's completely different technology, and I'm not educated enough on the subject yet to understand the benefits of floating a mid-charge on these things as some recommend, but I'm going to follow the manual and leave my '12 DS9 plugged in all the time unless I see hard evidence that the manufacturer is wrong.
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i ride my bike at least a few times per week, but my typical commute takes only two bars off the gauge round-trip. according to the manual, i then leave it plugged in at home. so, it's usually at 100% and not very frequently below 9 bars, which must be above 70%. i've read a lot of doc's posts out of interest in learning, so i know the guy has real chops with this stuff. at the moment, i don't have any real way of maintaining a partial charge anyway, so i guess i'll also just follow zero's instructions till i hear good evidence/plan otherwise.
as an aside, i had to smile a couple of days ago when this couple were just strolling diagonally across a parking lot blocking my path and i finally just had to call out "excuse me" so they knew i was there. tooooo quiet. i felt like a toot on the horn would have been too disruptive.
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as an aside, i had to smile a couple of days ago when this couple were just strolling diagonally across a parking lot blocking my path and i finally just had to call out "excuse me" so they knew i was there. tooooo quiet. i felt like a toot on the horn would have been too disruptive.
I've done something similar, riding on some (rather) backcountry roads with a jogger running in the exact middle of the road. Rolled along behind him at a jogging pace for a little bit, then eventually called out and moved past : )
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I wondered about charging as well. I just bought a 2011 xu dealer's demo cycle and plugged it in that night... It started with the Ammeter indicator LED's showing about 4 'bars'. Once the the system read charged and showing a green light I unplugged it. Its been two days so I went to plug it in again. It read 3 or 4 bars with the 80% amber light showing.
I wonder should it have dropped back to where it started in two days, with no riding involved?
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I would disagree in leaving the battery pack charging for a very long period of time, or 100% charged...and I would agree that Zero ultimately wants to avoid deep discharge user problems, not total battery capacity loss (long run and after warranty...).
The experience shows that leaving a pack at 30% capacity for a long period of time would not damage it, but let's face it batteries like being charged/de-charged, so, I would not recommend keeping the pack unused for more tan 3-4 weeks, that would not be very healthy...
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The way I understand it is, just because the charger is plugged in doesn't necessarily mean it's charging. My interpretation of the manual is that the charger stops charging when the batteries are charged. You leave it plugged in so that every 72 hours it comes online and checks the balance of the cells. At least that's my take on what the 2013 S manual says.
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I agree with spelunker on that. It is how I understand the charger operation also.
Trikester
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I keep my 2012 DS plugged in all the time so that I have a full battery. I think its important to know what battery chemistry you have and research it - batteryunivercity.com or Wiki it. My DS has uses the Lithium NMC chemistry or the Nickle, manganese, cobalt. Its has excellent energy density and thermo regulation, meaning it doesn't get as hot as other lithium chemistry's during charge and discharge with is good because excessive heat will destroy most things.
I have a watt hr meter on my charger so I just look at it to see if the charger has finished bulk charging or is in float mode, drawing about 5 watts. Bulk charge mode it draws about 950 watts
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The charger does not stop completely charging when you reach set machimum charge/battery capacity, it will carry on charging the batteries at a "residual current level"
Is this bad? No, but it is not healthy to leave the bike that way long run...at full capacity as the battery chemistry would be damaged.
Keep charging/discharging the battery (minimum once a moth) if you want to keep them alive long run...but do not worry too much on this, the batteries will age anyway (6-8 years), and consequently loose overall maximum capacity overtime whatever you do.
The bike manual is written for avoiding "non-battery experts" or general users to getting in trouble over a long period of time (warranty?), and to make your life easier, but if you speak to a battery expert he/she would not suggesst you to leave the battery pack at full charge long run, or not to cycle it
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Lipo -- interesting thoughts. I am wondering . . . what if you wanted to store the bike for a really long time -- like two years? (If all my life dreams work out, I might take a long sabbatical about three years from now). Is there anything you could do to keep the batteries from dying? Other than loan the bike to someone who will ride it regularly, of course. Could you leave it switched on, then put the charging cord on a timer, so the lights would drain the batteries a little each day, then the charger would kick in and bring the batteries back up each day, too? (I am not even sure whether the bikes will charge when switched on). Of course, your light could burn out sometime and wreck that plan.
Any thoughts? Other than sell the bike for pennies on the dollar and buy the latest model when I get back (expensive)?
--Karl
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Ideally you would store the battery at ~50% charge in cool temperatures. I believe the onboard charger will charge the battery up to 4.2 volts per cell every 72 hours; a maintenance mode where it instead charges it up to (say) 3.6 volts per cell would be ideal. There is a side port that you could access to plug in a secondary "maintenance" charger and perhaps leave the onboard charger unplugged.
Realistically, the easiest thing to do would be to sell the bike and purchase a new or one year old bike when you return. 2012s will be somewhat ancient at that point; Zero may slow their rapid progress in future years but I think you will find that you lose less "value" by selling now and buying when you return than by retaining the existing bike even in ideal conditions.
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kcoplan,
I would agree with protomech (and with you! -the loan option-). You should sell the bike. 3 years is too much (this includes the low charge storaging option, which would delay the kemical issues, but they would show up anyway)
3 years is a long time...and remember the battery pack will age...
I have seen a lot of interesting discussions in a few websites -including here- in trying to get the best formula to take proper care of the lithium battery packs -which I understand- unfortunately not a lot of talk about the unavoidable "aging" capacity deterioration issue, which in large battery packs is a kind of nighmare.
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Yeah, sell the bike, I guess. Probably worth about $500 bucks by then, at current depreciation rates. ;) And a new 2018 Zero might be going for what, $20G?
I am beginning it like the loan option, if this really works out. My daughter rides a Honda Rebel; she'd love to take off with Dad's Zero, actually.
--Karl
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If the batteries are still holding up, I would guess a 2012 Zero in 2017 would be worth a couple thousand bucks. It's hard to find ANY motorcycle in running condition around here for less than a thousand bucks .. and provided that the electrics prove to be reliable, then they should be much easier to own than a ~15 year old gas bike with uncertain maintenance risks hanging overhead.
But that may be optimistic. We'll see how well the bikes hold up over time.
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I've had my 2010 DS for sale at $2,000 and so far no takers. I set the price there because that's what Harlan sold one for, and he said it took six months to sell it.
Trikester
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I think the market for electric motorcycles is pretty small in the U.S. - unless you are a well-off new adopter. It is likely much better in Europe where two-wheel in-town commuting is much more popular. I don't see electric motorcycle sales to individuals in the U.S. really taking off until average gas prices go above $5 a gallon and who knows when that might be now that in America "fracking" is all the rage.
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Fracking will continue to reduce electricity prices, but it'll only slightly reduce gas prices where the refineries use natural gas.