ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Pics and Vids => Topic started by: mistasam on May 21, 2020, 03:08:51 AM
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Annnnd fight!
https://youtu.be/IJ7QJa-9r2M
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Annnnd fight!
...........
Not from me.
I'ld say you nailed it :)
(At least for current (less next gen.) Zero models).
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Yeah!
Diagrams are often worth thousands of words ^-^
-Crissa
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Bwahaha thanks! ;D
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That is truly a bonkers effort to go to! And who said being stuck at home in isolation would have us all bored...
Cas :)
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That is truly a bonkers effort to go to! And who said being stuck at home in isolation would have us all bored...
Thanks! Yep, can't wait to get away from my computer and ride! ;D
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Nice work; bit simple but hopefully effective. Where'd you get that Energica 3D model? (answering my own question: Hum3D, which also has a Zero model: https://hum3d.com/3d-models/energica-eva-2019/ (https://hum3d.com/3d-models/energica-eva-2019/))
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Hum3D, which also has a Zero
Yeah! I'm hoping to 3D scan a real Energica soon to get the scale right, and then model up some custom pieces for it ;D
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Arrrrrrrrrrrrrggggghh I didn't see this massive double-down coming. :)
But no, you only get to use the 10 kWh that's in a 10 kWh battery. Energy is converted between forms, not reused. The sum of energy in the system is monotonically decreasing, uphill or flat or downhill. The distance gain is from improved braking efficiency. The free energy illusion comes from counting energy flow in one direction only.
Drat, now I'm going to have to spend hours making an analogy video. Or I can just stop here!
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So you put 10KW into the battery, or 1/3 of a gallon of gas.
The bike consumes 10KW of energy. The gas bike is out of energy.
But the bike with regen recovered 1 KW of energy. So it gets to spend that, too.
So the electric bike spent 11 KW of energy. The bike without regen spent only 10.
-Crissa
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Good video, I think it explains it well. I think the only way there could be some sort of fight over this is based on semantics, and what constitutes energy from a battery.
One person might say during that mountain ride example in the video, the net energy out of the battery was 10kWh ( +10kWh up hill -1kWh downhill +1kWh on the flat = net 10kWh)
Another person might say during that ride you got 11kWh from the battery (10kW up hill, 1kWh on the flat = 11kWh ), because that is what you get if you add up all the kWh's that you used during the ride.
And you would both be right.
Here is an interesting EV that never needs to be recharged with an electrical connection, I think it might even have big resistors to bleed off energy when its batteries are too full (to save its mechanical brakes)!
It does this by the nature of its purpose, and the terrain where it operates. It uses energy to get up hill, where it is loaded with a heavy load of ore, it then uses regenerative braking to go back down the hill slowly, recovering more energy than was needed to climb the hill, where it dumps its load to be processed.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124478_world-s-largest-ev-never-has-to-be-recharged
-ryan
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It's filled with ore, which is its energy ^-^ All that tasty potential energy.
-Crissa
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The free energy illusion comes from counting energy flow in one direction only.
No one is calling it free energy, it's just recapturing what would otherwise be wasted as heat. As Sam said in the video if you didn't actually need to brake coming down the hill you might end up going further by just keeping momentum gained from gravity, but in situations where you do need to slow down (which often happens with riding in real life) you do make a positive gain from regen.
If you want to make the argument that including the energy input from regen would amount to a net output of 10kW/h then why not include the 10kW/h that was originally put into the battery when it was charged at home before the journey for a net output of 0kW/h? How is regaining 1kW/h from regen any different to stopping off at a charging station instead, in terms of energy expended?
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How about this, Curt:
You have $1. And you have a coupon for 20¢ back when you buy what you went to the store for.
How much money can you look to spend at the store?
-Crissa
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How about this, Curt:
You have $1. And you have a coupon for 20¢ back when you buy what you went to the store for.
How much money can you look to spend at the store?
-Crissa
Bad wording Crissa, he's going to say you'd only be spending the original $1 and the 20 cent coupon is just deducted from the $1. Same would apply if they gave you a physical 20 cent coin (is that a nickel or a dime?) to spend again. Instead we could think about the value of the items purchased including with the coupon (analogous to work done with a certain amount of energy).
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The twenty cents are deducted from the purchase not the amount being spent.
Because a 20¢ coupon is still 20 cents you get to spend (if you regen.) So the total you can 'spend' at the store is $1.20.
-Crissa
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His interpretation will be that you only spent 80 cents on the first purchase, then 20 cents in the form of the coupon. In a way he wouldn't be wrong, if you hand someone a $10 note for a $1 purchase and get $9 back in change you haven't then spent $10. You instead need to look at how much money changes hand, in the analogy the giving and receiving of money is the expending and regenerating of energy.
Off topic, do your yankee keyboards have a cent sign on them?
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Yep! Thanks Crissa ;D
Spending $10 and getting a dollar back, in this case, doesn't mean you only spent $9. It wasn't a 9kWh hill.
You spent $10 and now have another $1 to spend. Total spent at the end of the day is $11.
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yep! Thanks Crissa ;D
Spending $10 and getting a dollar back, in this case, doesn't mean you only spent $9. It wasn't a 9kWh hill.
You spent $10 and now have another $1 to spend. Total spent at the end of the day is $11.
Not so much in reality, usually, where it counts.
I have noticed even going down hill takes some energy. The electric bikes coast very purely even at no regen at all. Especially Zeros. More regen just makes it coast even slower. Big waste of energy if we have to make up for it to speed the bike back up from before the slowdown--even if going downhill.
We come out at a loss if we have to regain the same speed to make up for the drop in speed caused by poor coasting (or regen).
Where regen really helps is when we MUST slow down or MUST stop. When we have no choice, get as much charge back in the battery as possible.
I have gone down some very long steep hills, such as Mt. Rose south of Reno, going east. Many miles all down hill. I always have less SOC on the bottom of the hill than I did at the summit. No matter what regen settings I use.
The real gain is in getting more range while going down hill, and the times we need to slow down for curves or whatever.
IMO, they could make a big improvement in down hill range if they would just let the bike coast better even when with no regen at all.
Perhaps somebody needs to find a way that will disconnect the back wheel from the motor completely and really let it coast. Then it will use NO battery going down hill. Especially Zeros. The Energica coasts a lot better with no regen. Perhaps because of the extra weight? Perhaps the gear box? I really don't know, I only know it coasts better than my Zeros.
The only use I see for regen is when we MUST slow down and stay at the new slow speed or when we MUST stop.
But if we have to make up for the speed lost by poor coasting, (regardless of the regen settings, even when off totally) it's wasting more energy than we have gained. Even while down a long steep hill.
Same as trying to gain by going up and then down the same hill. Better range overall on a level road. Also better range at a steady speed. And keeping a steady speed is exactly what Zero recommends for best range and I agree. And at a steady speed, regen does nothing at all.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Your old physics professors would be having a complete fit if they read some of the arguments in here.
Curt is absolutely correct! I don't know how this bit of basic education eludes everybody.
Cas :)
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I don't know any physics professors who wouldn't understand that regen allows for more energy to be spent than was initially available.
If that were true, the truck that carries a load down the hill wouldn't be able to recharge its battery for the drive back up it. Heck, we wouldn't be able to recharge our batteries at all!
-Crissa
And no, if you have a $1 to spend on gumballs, and have a coupon for 20¢ towards gumballs, you actually can buy $1.20 of gumballs, not $1 like without the coupon and certainly not 80¢.
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The mind boggles, it really does. I had never thought somebody would discover the secret to infinite energy in a motorcycle forum.
Cas :)
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It's really less about pulling more power out of the battery and more about pimping out that Z force motor to earn daddy some more juice. You see it preforms a trick with a gravity John and it gives you 1 kWh for the effort.
Which IS a little light but hey it's something. 8)
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The mind boggles, it really does. I had never thought somebody would discover the secret to infinite energy in a motorcycle forum.
Cas :)
Again, no one said anything about infinite energy. You need to spend some to regain some and you regain less than you spend, but you still have more energy available to spend compared to if you didn't have regen. If without regen you can spend 100% of the energy capacity of the battery then by using regen you must be able to spend more than the 100% capacity, it's pretty damn simple.
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I have gone down some very long steep hills, such as Mt. Rose south of Reno, going east. Many miles all down hill. I always have less SOC on the bottom of the hill than I did at the summit. No matter what regen settings I use.
With my Zero SR/F in Eco-Mode with twice 100% regen, on 7,7 km from 1033 m down to 637 m I gain about 5% SoC.
https://kurv.gr/chtSB
Similarly riding downhill the other side of the hill/mountain. Observed three times ...
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@curt and @princec: You are the only ones here talking about free magical energy coming from nowhere
mistasam explained very nicely the usage of the kinetic movement to create electricity with the gravity + slope + wheel + turbine motor
Just like wind turbines produce electricity with wind + blade + electric turbine (not magically coming from nowhere)
, not reused.
You are aware that you just contradict youself here ?
How can you transform energy if it can't be reused ? (But maybe you were talking about 'electricity' not 'energy')
Energy is converted between forms
That's exactly right !
electricty from battery => transformed to mecanical movement of the turbine
mecanical movement of the turbine => transformed to rotating the wheel
rotating the wheel => transformed to movement going uphill
Thats the first chain of conversion where the whole entity 'bike' looses energy (but it also gained some gravitational potential energy due to earth gravity and bike mass)
The second chain of conversion is as follow :
movement going downhill => transformed to rotation of the wheel
rotation of the wheel => transformed to mecanical movement of the turbine
mecanical movement of the turbine => transformed to electricity 'stored' to the battery (it's not precise 'cause you can't really store electricity, but that how general public understand it)
In those 2 chains of conversion, energy is lost for the whole 'bike' entity in heat, light, various resistances and other mechanisms, that's why downhill you only get back a fraction of the energy
If you don't understand all that, just go learn how electricity is produced, because you are the ones with a lack of knowledge on the matter
Or maybe you just want to play picky on words
Or maybe you just want to troll, which in that case, I would say : don't feed the troll
My 20 cents on the subject (which didn't cost 1$ initially ;))
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With my Zero SR/F in Eco-Mode with twice 100% regen, on 7,7 km from 1033 m down to 637 m I gain about 5% SoC.
https://kurv.gr/chtSB
Similarly riding downhill the other side of the hill/mountain. Observed three times ...
Sure, I assume it can happen if the bike is heavy enough and the down hill is steep enough. I figure the heavier the bike, the better for regen, but in the long run, on the average roads, more is lost than gained with more weight.
The SR/F probably gains more from Regen than the lighter zeros.
While I have seen my SOC gain a point or two from going downhill, it was always while slowing down. And that is lost when I regain to the original speed--and then some.
Of course it is better to have regen than to not have it overall, but the only gain I have seen is when slowing down, even when going downhill. That's great, if we don't have to get back up to the original speed again, even while going down hill.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Your old physics professors would be having a complete fit if they read some of the arguments in here.
Plese explain where.
Curt is absolutely correct! I don't know how this bit of basic education eludes everybody.
What did I say that was different?
-Don- Reno, NV
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I haven't used an older Zero. However, a friend fo mine, riding a DSR, told me that his regen is much poorer than the one on the SR/F.
The backside of a mountain or steep hill I try to ride with full regen. In the example I used I do not need the brakes ones, if I ride deffensively.
And yes, of course - regen is not a sort of a perpetuum mobile ... - it only makes sense if I have to slow down and cannot use the kinetic energy of the bike for gaining a streched distance.
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That makes sense as the regen is a percentage of the output power, if Zero have kept that percentage the same (supposedly up to 10% in the older models). Thus even with older models a 14.4 should have more regen than a 7.2 (although perhaps less noticeable due to the weight difference) and an R model should have even more regen than the non-R.
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The regen limit mostly depends on the platform. The new platform (FST/Gen3) has a motor controller that can implement regen with integrated traction control, whereas the Sevcon controller in Gen2 bikes (SDS and XMX) is programmed with a regen limit that is supposed to be safe for all traction situations, because the bikes don't have traction control to cut back on regen if it causes a rear wheel lockup.
Regen (in my experience) and according to most riders who've been able to test it does not differ between SR,DSR and S,DS. It might differ from FX/FXS models especially at low SoC but not by design. Basically, there is a battery/powertrain limit, but it is not typically what older bikes are hitting IIUC.
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That makes sense as the regen is a percentage of the output power, if Zero have kept that percentage the same (supposedly up to 10% in the older models). Thus even with older models a 14.4 should have more regen than a 7.2 (although perhaps less noticeable due to the weight difference) and an R model should have even more regen than the non-R.
More in KWs of charge for sure with the larger or more powerful motors.
The Energica shows the KW charge and discharge as I ride. I just wish they would make that display larger, as I like to view that most of anything on the "My Energica" app. while riding. It's also on the bike's screen. But in either place, small digits that are difficult to see.
I have seen my Enerigia regen charge at above 25 KW. Displays as "-25KW". About as much as I can get from CCS fast charging. But it is just as easy to use the battery at above 25KW just to get back up to the same original speed.
BTW, my guess is that my Zeros regen recharges at around 3KW. Does anybody here know? Is there an app that will display it, as the Energica has?
No dount the SR/F and SR/S charge at a higher rate from regen than the smaller Zeros. Perhaps 6KW? And since the bike is heavier, that also helps add to regen. But the losses will be higher as well, when speed is regained. At least in most cases.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Best recharge I've gotten is 5% going down Alba, and no, I wasn't slowing down. It's only a couple miles, tho.
-Crissa
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Best recharge I've gotten is 5% going down Alba, and no, I wasn't slowing down. It's only a couple miles, tho.
-Crissa
I wonder if the 2014 coasts better than the later models. What percentage of regen do you use?
I have never noticed a SOC gain without slowing down--except perhaps in my DS when it had a bad battery and charged more than twice as fast as normal in SOC-- and I am not even sure about that. But if down hill steep enough, perhaps it is possible to get a little recharge at a steady speed. But certainly isn't the norm by my own experience.
On my Zeros, downhill, I normal have one positive bar, which means I am using some energy just to maintain a steady speed while going down hill. If we could totally disconnect from the motor, then we should be able to coast and perhaps even increase speed and not use anything from the battery while going downhill.
Now all I need to do is design and patent it!
The other question is could it gain enough as it is only needed when we go down hill which is when we get the very best range anyway.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The motor requires a field to be applied to detect motor position, so it can apply torque correctly when you want to exit the coast. So some energy goes into that.
Whether that explains the 0% regen drag or not, I cannot full say, but it must be some amount.
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I have played with 40-60 and 20-60; throttle/brake regen. I flip to and from Sport when I need more braking, and to and from Eco when I want more on throttle.
I found during the winter having high regen on the brakes made it grab too hard and I fishtailed more often. And I found that below 40 I didn't feel any additional drag from the throttle. It has alot of drag normally, and it seems if I set it lower than 30 I don't feel it and I don't get as much regen.
-Crissa
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I have played with 40-60 and 20-60; throttle/brake regen. I flip to and from Sport when I need more braking, and to and from Eco when I want more on throttle.
I found during the winter having high regen on the brakes made it grab too hard and I fishtailed more often. And I found that below 40 I didn't feel any additional drag from the throttle. It has alot of drag normally, and it seems if I set it lower than 30 I don't feel it and I don't get as much regen.
-Crissa
What I have been doing is using custom mode for everything other than putting the bike up the ramp on my RV, when I use Eco.
On my custom, I have it set for very high deceleration regen, something like 75% IIRC, and 100% for braking. I use the throttle to control the amount of regen which I find to be the very best way after getting used to it.
I also keep my Energica at max regen and in sport mode. Again, I control it all from the throttle.
It's probably more difficult for me to get used to because I go from ICE bikes to electric quite often. But still not much of an issue.
What I like most about regen is the way it doesn't compare to gas bikes. Going down from VA City the other day, very curvy, the Energica would compare to an ICE bike if I could keep it in first and 6th gear at the same time! But that is not possible.
The electrics seem a lot safer on the tight curves. And I don't have to think about downshifting to which gear.
-Don- Reno, NV
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BTW, my guess is that my Zeros regen recharges at around 3KW. Does anybody here know? Is there an app that will display it, as the Energica has?
Yes, Zero App gives it, if you choose to display the power. It displays as positive when you accelerate, and negative when you use regeneration. And you will see that you can put much more than 3kW into the battery when you regenerate!
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Yes, Zero App gives it, if you choose to display the power. It displays as positive when you accelerate, and negative when you use regeneration. And you will see that you can put much more than 3kW into the battery when you regenerate!
Thanks. Strange that I never noticed it, but I normally don't have the app running from my Zeros while riding, even though I do have the mounting hardware installed for the cell.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The regen limit mostly depends on the platform. The new platform (FST/Gen3) has a motor controller that can implement regen with integrated traction control, whereas the Sevcon controller in Gen2 bikes (SDS and XMX) is programmed with a regen limit that is supposed to be safe for all traction situations, because the bikes don't have traction control to cut back on regen if it causes a rear wheel lockup.
That's good to know about FST. It's quite a technology advancement to link the TC and regen.
I think cars do this really well; my Bolt EV in single-pedal driving mode and regen paddle applied slows down quite rapidly even on downhills, and I've seen regen upwards of 40 kW which is comparable to the consumption during average acceleration.
My experience with the FX is that regen can have quite a noticeable braking effect, but the energy recovery is minimal. Coming down a long hill like Page Mill, the gauge may tick up by 1%, particularly if it has very recently ticked down. I've never seen it tick up more than 1% on any downhill.
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I've never seen it tick up more than 1% on any downhill.
And hope not to, unless your battery is still in warranty. I discovered it means the battery is crapping out to get several more SOC than usual from Regen while riding downhill. I was getting large SOC gains on my DS 6.5, perhaps because the reduced KWH capacity charged up a lot faster from the same regen KW (or while normally charging). Now, I rarely even see a point increase on a long downhilll with my new 7.2 KWH battery. And I have never seen a SOC increase happen on my SR (16.3 KWH) with power tank from a long downhill stretch.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don, there are steeper hills, although Page Mill is pretty steep.
-Crissa
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Don, there are steeper hills, although Page Mill is pretty steep.
-Crissa
I've been on Page Mill Road several times. So I know the hill, but I have never been on an electric bike on it. I used to live in the San Mateo area, and visit friends who lived in Los Altos Hills. And we used to ride in the hills a lot.
If you can go down, very slowly, a very long steep hill, without any throttle, you're probably charging three times as fast as your OBC with most regen settings. But that still takes quite a while to advance two digits. You usually will run out of hill by then, at least with a sizable battery that holds more KWH's, as they take longer to recharge (in SOC, not miles).
At higher speeds, you're using more battery than you gain even while going downhill, has been my experience. Mt. Rose Hwy and Hwy 50 east of lake Tahoe (into Carson City) is longer and steeper than Page Mill Road. But cannot go slow at such places because of traffic.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Like I said, I've gotten 5% going down Alba, and it's only a few miles long.
-Crissa
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Like I said, I've gotten 5% going down Alba, and it's only a few miles long.
-Crissa
The smaller battery there charges faster. And 2014 used a much different motor, IIRC. Probably yours coasts better than the newer models.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Mine coasts terribly.
Like I've said before, I can't get a good regen going on with more than a piddly 6% grade.
-Crissa
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Sorry everybody.. I think it's a miscommunication thing, or a problem with how I phrased it again. Here's an example I probably shouldn't animate:
Let's say you drink 2 liters of water and then pee out 1 liter ::)
Then you drink that 1 liter of pee water.
The total amount of water that existed was always 2 liters, but you technically "drank 3 liters".
This is what I meant by "using more than 100% of your battery".. not that new energy was created from no where. It's a matter of perspective. You didn't create more water.. you just turned that water into pee. And regen gives you the opportunity to drink it again ;D
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Sorry everybody.. I think it's a miscommunication thing, or a problem with how I phrased it again. Here's an example I probably shouldn't animate:
Let's say you drink 2 liters of water and then pee out 1 liter ::)
Then you drink that 1 liter of pee water.
The total amount of water that existed was always 2 liters, but you technically "drank 3 liters".
This is what I meant by "using more than 100% of your battery".. not that new energy was created from no where. It's a matter of perspective.
Here is another matter of perspective.
I would say it compares to having 10KWHs worth of battery full, riding 50 miles and stopping for a recharge of 5 KWH. That's 15 KWH from a ten KWH battery even if no regen!
Charging is charging, regardless if from regen or a charge station. It's just that regen can give a little more charge without a stop & wait.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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It's just that regen can give a little more charge without a stop & wait.
Yes! I like that mentality.
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(Un)fortunately, Bear Grylls already demonstrated it on a raft out in the ocean. :)
I think I can finally clarify by extending your urinalogy. Consider a space station with a 2,000 liter tank of water which is recycled 1, 000 times.
From the view of an outside observer (like the shuttle), 2,000 liters were delivered to the station, and they were used efficiently.
From the view of the astronauts, 2,000,000 liters came out of the faucet.
The two frames of reference are the origin of the two viewpoints. Both are important, as one would need to consider both when designing the system.
However, even the astronaut would never phrase it as "we got 2,000,000 liters out of a 2,000 liter tank," even if speaking to school children. It would make them dumber. That's what my objection comes down to.
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But Curt, that's literally how water recycling works. You get n liters through the recycler, which is more than the size of the tank.
You're saying we can't say we get thousands of miles out of tires which are only two feet in diameter.
That's... Silly.
-Crissa
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Haha urinalogy ;D
Yeah that makes a lot of sense... except when it comes to hills. Ride to the top and there's no kinetic energy to keep you going, so you've used everything that battery had. Then the motor recharges it going down. In the case of that mining truck, it could recharge more than it used going up. How does that one work?
You're still turning one type of energy into another, but it doesn't seem to be energy that was originally in the battery.
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Mistasam's clarified description has now stopped his physics professor from spinning in his grave.
The only other factor is, of course, the potential energy of a mass starting out at the top of a hill, but my gut feeling is that if you can make it down the hill without braking at all, you're better off with the coast than attempting to scavenge a few watts from regen.
Cas :)
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...Which is in the video, Curt.
-Crissa
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So using 10kWh to get up the hill created the potential to generate and use 1 more kWh, right?
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Well, it didn't create the potential, it converted the kinetic energy into potential energy.
Cas :)
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It created potential energy from kinetic energy. There's nothing wrong with saying a certain type of energy is created as long as you say what it's created from, which Sam did. The issue comes when someone says energy can be created from nothing, which no-one in this discussion ever did but some people seem to think otherwise.