ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: loggamatt on September 20, 2020, 03:52:07 PM
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New forum member - motorcyclist and electric car owner. I'm considering getting rid of my car as I don't really need two vehicles, and would love to trade my ICE bike in for an electric bike at the same time, but I like touring. I've been trying to convince myself that touring is realistic on an electric bike, but I think they're maybe just not there yet for that.
The closest thing I can see to an electric touring bike is the Zero DSR Black Forest Edition. Though it appears not to have cruise control, which is a big let down on a touring bike.
But the deal breaker is the lack of CCS rapid charging. A 60-70 mile motorway/highway range wouldn't bother me too much if I could combine a leg stretch with a 20-minute recharge on a rapid charger, but a 2-3 hour break on a type 2 charger multiple times per day just isn't realistic for long-distance touring.
I suspect I'm not the only person to have asked this here, but to save me trawling back through historic posts, does anyone have any information on whether Zero are working on including CCS charging on their bikes, and on the DSR in particular? Also, if there are any rumours about general upgrades to the DSR like cruise control?
Thanks!!
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New forum member - motorcyclist and electric car owner. I'm considering getting rid of my car as I don't really need two vehicles, and would love to trade my ICE bike in for an electric bike at the same time, but I like touring. I've been trying to convince myself that touring is realistic on an electric bike, but I think they're maybe just not there yet for that.
The closest thing I can see to an electric touring bike is the Zero DSR Black Forest Edition. Though it appears not to have cruise control, which is a big let down on a touring bike.
But the deal breaker is the lack of CCS rapid charging. A 60-70 mile motorway/highway range wouldn't bother me too much if I could combine a leg stretch with a 20-minute recharge on a rapid charger, but a 2-3 hour break on a type 2 charger multiple times per day just isn't realistic for long-distance touring.
I suspect I'm not the only person to have asked this here, but to save me trawling back through historic posts, does anyone have any information on whether Zero are working on including CCS charging on their bikes, and on the DSR in particular? Also, if there are any rumours about general upgrades to the DSR like cruise control?
Thanks!!
https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/
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https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/
Thanks! I'd seen that article, but the rapid charging world has moved on a bit from 2013, and competitors like Energica and Harley-Davidson have CCS charging on their bikes, so it must be possible now. Maybe Zero were just so burned by their last attempt that they're reluctant to try again? If so, I can see them being left behind by the competitors.
If Energica made a more touring-friendly version of the EsseEsse 9+, I would buy that. It's just a shame that the only manufacturer who has a touring-friendly electric motorcycle doesn't equip it with a touring-friendly charging type.
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https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/
Thanks! I'd seen that article, but the rapid charging world has moved on a bit from 2013, and competitors like Energica and Harley-Davidson have CCS charging on their bikes, so it must be possible now. Maybe Zero were just so burned by their last attempt that they're reluctant to try again? If so, I can see them being left behind by the competitors.
If Energica made a more touring-friendly version of the EsseEsse 9+, I would buy that. It's just a shame that the only manufacturer who has a touring-friendly electric motorcycle doesn't equip it with a touring-friendly charging type.
The voltage of the battery on the Zero it's too low (116.4V), the DC Fast Charging Stations are not able to lower their voltage that much.
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Also, Zero is focused on keeping their prices down as much as possible. I suspect that the cost of providing CCS charging just doesn't seem to financially pan out for them at this time. In most areas L2 charging is a lot more available to the general public than CCS and certainly gets a lot more attention in the press when they discuss electric vehicles.
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Welcome aboard Loggamatt.
This is really a vast subject but I'll try to hit on a few points that might help you at least see some of the reasons why and differences of approach.
So People have toured the whole country already so it can be done. You can look up Benswing Rich on You Tube and watch his older videos of Zero Touring.
Now I know the DSR BFE looks like the BMWs from Long Way Round with the big square aluminum luggage but the best Zero for touring would be the SRS. That luggage will act as 3 parachutes on a bike that needs to be areo.
Now there may be a new DSR type offering in the not too distant future as Zero applied for some name trade marks recently but they may be a year or two down the road. That extra fork travel does soak up bad roads nicely.
The SRS does have cruise control a Shad luggage rack system (more aero) with an option to have up to 12kw of charging on the Premium bike or 6kw and an extra 3.6kWh tank battery for a bit more didstance between charges. It's the most aero bike Zero has and still has a more upright seating posistion. It has 110hp vs 70hp on the DSR to move you and your gear better. It has a center stand option and a swingarm design that allows for roadside belt changes that you need to remove the swingarm to change on a DSR.
Now when I first got my first Zero I was so in love with the way it rode and the one thing I wanted was to just enjoy that feeling longer.
So from that aspect I see why touring is appealing. That said I've never done it and I'm very happy doing 60 mile back road rides a few times a week instead of 500 miles in a weekend twice a summer. No judgement on what you want but that's the way I ride electric.
As for the CCS issue, it really has only caught on as a US standard in the last few years. Chademo was tried on the early 13s but the stations didn't do like they claimed they would so Zero dropped it. All the old Leafs used Chademo and it still is huge in Japan. That being said CCS is growing but most of the country they are few and far between. As some of the guys on here have used it for long trips I can say it costs more than gas for the same mileage.
But that brings us to Li-ion batteries and there (safe) charging limit of 1C. So if you don't know, if you have a 14 kWh battery you would only be able to charge it at a rate of 14kWs at a charging station if it's AC or CCS and stay at the 1C rate. In the future solid state batteries may be able to charge at 10C or faster since they won't have a liquid electrolyte to boil off. But they won't be here any time soon. Energica does charge faster but we don't know the long term effects for yet.
At this point 1hr is about as fast as you can charge a battery from 0% to 100%. The other tricky part is the batteries charge slower from 0%-20% and from 80%-100% for battery cell safety reasons. Ben talks about this alot in his videos. You want to stay in that sweet spot of 20%-80% then unplug and go.
Zero has taken the approach of having the highest AC charging available on any EM since there are far more AC chargers than CCS chargers in the country now. As that stat changes I'm sure Zero will move in that direction but it will require a full battery redesign as the minimum voltage has to be over 250V (I think, maybe just 200V) and that is a major move.
I would say go test ride a SRS and see what you think. Maybe keep a gas touring bike if that is something you love to do but want electric for daily riding (you'll love it). You may find that stopping for longer periods of time to charge gives you an opportunity to meet people and see more of where your touring giving you less miles per trip but a more full experience of traveling.
Good luck and do give it a test ride if you can.
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In most areas L2 charging is a lot more available to the general public than CCS and certainly gets a lot more attention in the press when they discuss electric vehicles.
If the vehicle can accept CCS, it can also accept J-1772 (L2).
CCS vehicles can also accept L1 (120 VAC) and L2 (240 VAC) outlets with a granny cable.
Its just that the AC charging uses the charger in the vehicle and DC charging is direct to the battery. Plugs into the vehicle the same way.
In some areas, such I-80 between here and Auburn, there are more CCS charge stations than J1772. The Energica can use either. I just wish it had 6 KW AC charging, it only does 3KW which is only a little more than twice as fast as Zero's OBC. Out here in the Reno area, L2 is a lot more common, and almost always free, but we still have CCS charge stations, five locations here in Reno , and one in Carson City, Garnerville, Fernley & Fallon.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That's the key, Harley and Energica have CCS but only 3kw AC charging so 12kw of AC charging on a Zero is better for "most" of the country.
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But that brings us to Li-ion batteries and there (safe) charging limit of 1C. So if you don't know, if you have a 14 kWh battery you would only be able to charge it at a rate of 14kWs at a charging station if it's AC or CCS and stay at the 1C rate.
The 11.7 KWH (usable) lithium-ion polymer battery on my Energica can charge at around 25 KW, more than 2C.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Wow... thanks guys! This is really informative and useful.
So I probably should have said that I live in the UK, which may bias me away from type 2 to CCS. I actually think (as a car EV owner) that it is starting to become easier to find CCS while on a journey here than it is to find type 2. Type 2 chargers tend to be in public car parks (parking lots), hotels, places where people expect you to leave your vehicle charging for a long time. Whereas CCS will more often be in locations where you’d just stop off quickly, like restaurants or motorway rest areas. Therefore, I think CCS will usually be the more convenient option when on a long trip.
I also think that trend is going to continue because new CCS infrastructure is going in all the time here. So even if a Zero bike was just as easy to charge now, would it still be in another 5 years?
I take your point that, in reality, charging times wouldn’t be vastly different anyway up to 80%, but I just think CCS future-proofs you more for charger availability.
I think this probably points me in the direction of Energica. A shame though, as I do admit that the SRS looks bloody gorgeous, and having just looked up the SHAD luggage for it that does seem a nice option. I also would much rather have a belt drive than a chain drive as winter riding in the UK eats chains for breakfast because of all the road salt.
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That's the key, Harley and Energica have CCS but only 3kw AC charging so 12kw of AC charging on a Zero is better for "most" of the country.
Harley LW only has 1.5 KW. Only good for home charging.
Yeah, I wish my Energica had 6 KW charging. 12 KW is somewhat useless here in the USA, because most J-1772's here can only handle around 7 KW.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Loggamatt, well yeah the UK does make a difference. ;) Were you planning on staying in the UK or going over to Europe?
I think that Zero or Energica are both great bikes but do test ride them to make sure the fit and ride characteristics (weight) meet your needs as they are quite different on both brands. Electric truly is a great choice in the UK.
I agree that CCS will be the "near" future but I predict very very fast charge times in the later future.
Dontom: I wrote later that Energica does charge faster but long term real world battery effects aren't "known" yet. Will most likely be fine but it is an *.
And yes Harley is at 1.3kW for AC that slipped my mind. Very bad choice on Harley's part for a $30k bike.
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I thin Harley made a conscious choice for the future. AC chargers are big and bulky.
We're just not in that future yet.
-Crissa
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I would be surprised if we don't see a CCS tank for the FST line come out in the next couple years. Zero would have to have a highly efficient DC DC converter to lower the battery voltage(or a new battery with a higher voltage), but there's nothing stopping them from doing that. I don't know of any existing parts though, so they'd probably have to spend significant time and money developing and testing it to make it backwards compatible.
CCS might be the future, but Level 2 has significant advantages in ease and cost of installation, and is a lot more common.
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'Efficient' and 'DC-DC' and 'CCS': No two mix.
-Crissa
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I thin Harley made a conscious choice for the future. AC chargers are big and bulky.
We're just not in that future yet.
-Crissa
Yeah, but Zero somehow managed to squeeze in (up to) 12 KW worth of chargers in the SR/F & SR/S. So we're there.
Like Energica says "Electric is the future and the future is now". But Energica didn't listen to their own words, only Zero did, when it comes to AC charging. But it's difficult to complain much when only Energica (& Harley) has CCS.
-Don- Reno, NV
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From what I understand, you can get 12kW of AC charging from a Tesla destination charger, but you'll have to buy a Tesla tap adapter in order to use one... Most I've seen from a regular J1772 is 7kW.
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Yeah, but Zero somehow managed to squeeze in (up to) 12 KW worth of chargers in the SR/F & SR/S. So we're there.
...And the Zero has a big fat charger in that tank, while the Livewire is relatively svelte. And they have CCS instead and more performance.
-Crissa
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From what I understand, you can get 12kW of AC charging from a Tesla destination charger, but you'll have to buy a Tesla tap adapter in order to use one... Most I've seen from a regular J1772 is 7kW.
Not all Tesla Destination "Chargers" (they are not really chargers at all) are the same. Not all of them can do the 12 KW but some can do 16 KW, 14 KW, or 10 KW. They vary all over, if you check Plugshare. Mine at my houses can do 12 KW.
I own several Tesla-Taps, but the most I ever need for AC charging will be around 8.3 KW, but on the road, usually 6.3 KW. I will soon be able to charge my SR at around 8 kW on the road, perhaps at the very max most J stations can do. I am buying a couple of new Elcon 3.3 KW chargers from Elcon and the two 2.5 KW chargers I have been using will be used for my DS (getting close to 1C charging with it). The 3.3 KW chargers are a little smaller in size than the older 2.5 KW external chargers I have been using. These will be programmed to go up to 114 volts and then stop. So at about 95% SOC, the last 5% SOC (or ~2VDC)will be the OBC only, if I want to wait for it. That just gives me a little extra time to put the external chargers back in my side cases as I am still charging with the OBC as I get things ready to take off.
I already have both of my Zeros wired up for external chargers. To smaller Anderson connectors that are wired directly to the battery terminals on the motor controller.
-Don- Reno, NV
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.And the Zero has a big fat charger in that tank, while the Livewire is relatively svelte. And they have CCS instead and more performance.-Crissa
I hear they have four 3 KW chargers in the Zero SR/F & SR/S with the power tank to get the 12 KW. Two in the tank and two under the seat.
-Don- Reno, NV
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.And the Zero has a big fat charger in that tank, while the Livewire is relatively svelte. And they have CCS instead and more performance.-Crissa
I hear they have four 3 KW chargers in the Zero SR/F & SR/S with the power tank to get the 12 KW. Two in the tank and two under the seat.
-Don- Reno, NV
It's two 3kW units under the tank area above the battery, just in front of the seat, but I think the charge tank option may be a single 6kW unit (possibly mostly identical to the one for the S/DS) from the images I've seen. I think this is the reason why the power input is also wired sort of funky, one phase going to each of the 3kW units and then the third going to the 6kW one or something like that.
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It's two 3kW units under the tank area above the battery, just in front of the seat, but I think the charge tank option may be a single 6kW unit (possibly mostly identical to the one for the S/DS) from the images I've seen. I think this is the reason why the power input is also wired sort of funky, one phase going to each of the 3kW units and then the third going to the 6kW one or something like that.
OIC, I was just going by what I thought I heard here before. Perhaps I remembered incorrectly.
I really have no idea as I don't own or ever even looked at the guts of a SR/F or SR/S.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Looking at Zap-Map for the UK (fairly unscientifically, just scrolling around the map for different areas of the country), it looks like there are a fair number of Type 2 chargers that could charge up to 12kW here. But it also seems that they are usually either older units, or expensive units, or both.
CCS is better catered for. As is 7kW Type 2.
7kW Type 2 can also often be found at a far cheaper rate than CCS, so that is one other thing to factor in here. I could charge an Energica in 20-30mins on CCS, or I could charge a Zero in 2 hours (on a 7kW charger) but save enough money on the charge cost to pay for the coffee I drink while waiting 2 hours!
I need to give it some thought really, and test ride one of them when I get a chance. I’d be using it as an all-year commuter as well as for touring, so the belt drive on the Zero REALLY appeals to me!
Maybe I would just have to re-evaluate my approach to motorcycle touring. Right now, I have a big, comfortable touring bike and can happily do 500 miles or more in a day. That said, those big mileage days tend to be at the start or end of a trip, getting to or back from the area I want to visit/ride in. Once I’m in the area I want to visit, it’s more like 200 mile days with plenty of stops to see things anyway. So maybe if I went the Zero route, I’d have to take an extra day or so at the start and end of my trips for the journey to and from the destination area.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, you could do a 200 mile day on a Zero, but a 300 mile day on an Energica (due to faster charging). The other thing to factor in is whether I would actually want to do a 300 mile day on that style of bike anyway? Currently I would do 300 miles easily, but my bike has a neutral, upright position and a wide, comfy seat. I have a bad back, and I reckon I’d be feeling ready to rest after 200 miles on a leaned-forward sports-tourer anyway.
So, a lot to weigh up! But I am maybe leaning back towards the Zero on paper at least the more I consider the difference in the real world between these bikes.
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The Zero's belt drive is fairly unreliable too, and apt to leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere without warning.
Cas :)
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Almost 38k miles on my belt. It needs to be set up correctly including proper torque on the axial nut to keep it from getting too tight but it can work for long distances. Salt isn't good for anything though I'm afraid.
The old secret charging source for charging in the old days (5-6 years ago) was RV parks and their 14-50 outlets. Now some won't let you charge or bill you more than it's worth but it was an extra source of power in a tight spot. You had to have the plug adapter of course which eats up cargo space, but it was an option.
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From what I understand, you can get 12kW of AC charging from a Tesla destination charger, but you'll have to buy a Tesla tap adapter in order to use one... Most I've seen from a regular J1772 is 7kW.
Not all Tesla Destination "Chargers" (they are not really chargers at all) are the same. Not all of them can do the 12 KW but some can do 16 KW, 14 KW, or 10 KW. They vary all over, if you check Plugshare. Mine at my houses can do 12 KW.
Doesn't really matter if the Tesla destination charger can put out more than 12kWh. The Zero is only going to draw a maximum of 12kWh if its available. My point was that right now in the US, that is really the only place you can get that much charging power for an SR/F or SR/S (provided it is equipped for it). There are some L2 stations by me that (according to PlugShare) put out 7kWh but my S with its Charge Tank is only going to use 6kWh (or is it 6.6? I see conflicting information online).
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Doesn't really matter if the Tesla destination charger can put out more than 12kWh.
I realize that it makes no difference to have a source capable of more amps or watts than what is needed as long as the voltage is in the correct range.
My point was that right now in the US, that is really the only place you can get that much charging power for an SR/F or SR/S (provided it is equipped for it). There are some L2 stations by me that (according to PlugShare) put out 7kWh but my S with its Charge Tank is only going to use 6kWh (or is it 6.6? I see conflicting information online).
Not always true. Go direct to a 240 VAC 14-50 outlet and you usually have 240 VAC @ 50 amps (the typical most common breaker used) and you have your full 12000 watts. The problem there is that most granny cables cannot handle 12 KW. I am not sure if any available can. But I use external chargers that can plug in direct. I just don't have the 12 KW worth of chargers.
I often charge here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/114456), for an example.
So I do wonder why there is only 7 KW available from J1772 stations. Anybody know why they usually cannot handle the full 12 KW? What is so different in a Tesla Wall Connector where 12 KW is the norm? And since almost every 14-50 is wired for 50 amps (and a lot more is possible), what is the issue that prevents most J1772 stations from doing 12KW?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Probably site wiring, Don.
-Crissa
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Probably site wiring, Don.
-Crissa
It's not uncommon to see a 14 KW Telsa Destination charge station right next to a 7 KW J1772 station a few feet away from each other. Same site.
Here is an example of such. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/44161)
But I just found my answer here. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772) The issue is the J1772 plug itself. Only approved for 6.6 KW.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Well, then that's probably because the owner of the site is not an EV person. They don't look like they were installed by the same people, either, the paint is different?
-Crissa
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So I do wonder why there is only 7 KW available from J1772 stations. Anybody know why they usually cannot handle the full 12 KW? What is so different in a Tesla Wall Connector where 12 KW is the norm? And since almost every 14-50 is wired for 50 amps (and a lot more is possible), what is the issue that prevents most J1772 stations from doing 12KW?
The limit for J1772 is 80 A @ 240 VAC (19.2 kW).
However, the industry seems to have settled on 32 A as a de facto, practical limit. All of the most popular EV cars on the market have a 32 A maximum.
No more than 40 A should be drawn from a 14-50 plug, in accordance with the rule that continuous draw should not exceed 80% of rated capacity.
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Zero has taken the approach of having the highest AC charging available on any EM since there are far more AC chargers than CCS chargers in the country now. As that stat changes I'm sure Zero will move in that direction but it will require a full battery redesign as the minimum voltage has to be over 250V (I think, maybe just 200V) and that is a major move.
I wonder why they couldn't divide the battery into three sections, and then use six smaller contactors to change them to a series configuration during charging and a parallel configuration during operation?
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Well, they probably could, they just ... haven't.
Cas :)
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The limit for J1772 is 80 A @ 240 VAC (19.2 kW).
However, the industry seems to have settled on 32 A as a de facto, practical limit. All of the most popular EV cars on the market have a 32 A maximum.
No more than 40 A should be drawn from a 14-50 plug, in accordance with the rule that continuous draw should not exceed 80% of rated capacity.
Yeah, I know the 80% rule, but I figure 99% is okay if you're keeping an eye on it and not trying to leave it at that for days at a time.
I have seen some J1772 stations say they have a 5.5 KW limit. Says so right on the screen of this one at the Fox Peak Station. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/98462) And here is one (https://www.plugshare.com/location/38358)that says 6.6 KW limit right there.
So where have you seen 19.2 KW J1772? Are you in Europe where things are different than here in the USA?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Zero has taken the approach of having the highest AC charging available on any EM since there are far more AC chargers than CCS chargers in the country now. As that stat changes I'm sure Zero will move in that direction but it will require a full battery redesign as the minimum voltage has to be over 250V (I think, maybe just 200V) and that is a major move.
I wonder why they couldn't divide the battery into three sections, and then use six smaller contactors to change them to a series configuration during charging and a parallel configuration during operation?
Yes! Although the (old) monolith was four 116V "bricks" so if they could be switchable to series giving it 464V and back to parallel for riding.
I had talked about that years ago and got crickets from the EEs so maybe some other reason to not do it but it seems like a good idea to me.
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I wonder why they couldn't divide the battery...
...Because that takes a bunch of relays which can fail and someone else patented this process so no one else can do it for another fifteen years or so.
-Crissa
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Yeah, I know the 80% rule, but I figure 99% is okay if you're keeping an eye on it and not trying to leave it at that for days at a time.
I have seen some J1772 stations say they have a 5.5 KW limit. Says so right on the screen of this one at the Fox Peak Station. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/98462) And here is one (https://www.plugshare.com/location/38358)that says 6.6 KW limit right there.
So where have you seen 19.2 KW J1772? Are you in Europe where things are different than here in the USA?-Don- Reno, NV
L2 charging is definitely in the category where the 80% rule applies. You can't keep an eye on wires and wire nuts inside the wall.
I didn't say or imply all J1772 stations are 32 A.
I've never seen a 19.2 KW J1772, but that is the spec maximum, not "The issue is the J1772 plug itself. Only approved for 6.6 KW."
I'm in the SF Bay Area.
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L2 charging is definitely in the category where the 80% rule applies. You can't keep an eye on wires and wire nuts inside the wall.
I didn't say or imply all J1772 stations are 32 A.
I've never seen a 19.2 KW J1772, but that is the spec maximum, not "The issue is the J1772 plug itself. Only approved for 6.6 KW."
I'm in the SF Bay Area.
I was going by this from Wikipedia:
"Avcon manufactured a rectangular connector compliant with specification SAE J1772 REV NOV 2001, capable of delivering up to 6.6 kW of electrical power."
Perhaps the problem is that most of our J1772 stations are old, but even many of the new ones have a limit of less.
While J1772 (and everything else hard wired) will follow the 80% rule, how do you know what circuit the J-station is on? Even at this house, I could have had mine wired in for more than the 12 KW as my panel had more than that available. Just use thicker wire and a 100 amp breaker and then I would be good for a continuous 80 amps or 19 KW. But all I need is the 12 kW (48 amps) to charge my Tesla. It's a 12 KW AC charger. I also charge all my electric motorcycles with this and a TeslaTap.
I am from the SF west bay area. Mainly San Mateo.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I was going by this from Wikipedia:
"Avcon manufactured a rectangular connector compliant with specification SAE J1772 REV NOV 2001, capable of delivering up to 6.6 kW of electrical power."
Perhaps the problem is that most of our J1772 stations are old, but even many of the new ones have a limit of less.
While J1772 (and everything else hard wired) will follow the 80% rule, how do you know what circuit the J-station is on? Even at this house, I could have had mine wired in for more than the 12 KW as my panel had more than that available. Just use thicker wire and a 100 amp breaker and then I would be good for a continuous 80 amps or 19 KW. But all I need is the 12 kW (48 amps) to charge my Tesla. It's a 12 KW AC charger. I also charge all my electric motorcycles with this and a TeslaTap.
I am from the SF west bay area. Mainly San Mateo.
The 6.6 kW connector you mentioned is from 19 years ago. I charge with 7.68 kW (the full 32 A) and my JuiceBox J-1772 supports up to 40 A (9.6 kW, or 80% of 50 A outlet).
Oversubscribing a multi-outlet circuit is a common cause of house fires, because there is no practical way to prevent drawing more than 80% of 15 A, for example. I had an ancient wire nut burn in my attic last year and the insulation around it was singed. I'm really lucky we have flammability standards for insulation. Circuits 30 A and above typically only run to a single outlet/appliance so that isn't a problem. At 50 A and above, a charger should be hard wired without a plug, which I assume your Tesla charger is!
But I digress... we'll probably never have CCS at home. :)
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CCS is just an external charger, it can run at low wattage.
So yeah, we could just have it at home. That would be a bit bulky of a granny cable, tho!
-Crissa
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CCS is just an external charger, it can run at low wattage.
So yeah, we could just have it at home. That would be a bit bulky of a granny cable, tho!
And expensive, $9000 for this 25kW one (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074Z9SG2J).
But aren't all plug-in chargers granny cables, if you neglect to mount them on the wall? :)
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The 6.6 kW connector you mentioned is from 19 years ago. I charge with 7.68 kW (the full 32 A) and my JuiceBox J-1772 supports up to 40 A (9.6 kW, or 80% of 50 A outlet).
Mainly when I am on the road is when I care what they can support. I just purchased a couple of 3.3 KW chargers and with the OBC that will be 7.9 KW. Or one in parallel with my Elcon 2500 will be 7.1 KW. That's still a little over what many J stations can handle while on the road these days. But I can always charge at 4.6 KW if there is an issue.
At 50 A and above, a charger should be hard wired without a plug, which I assume your Tesla charger is.
Yep! I didn't install any of them, I let an electrician do them.
But I digress... we'll probably never have CCS at home. :)
I don't see much need for home fast DC charging here. On the road is a much different story,
I will soon be able to charge my SR at home at ten KW (OBC, plus two 3.3KW Elcons plus two 1 KW Delta-Qs') if I am in a hurry, using my Tesla-Tap. And I doubt I will do that often, if ever.
I will use my two old Elcons on my DS and charge it at 6.3 KW which is getting close to 1C on that bike.
-Don- Reno, NV
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CCS is just an external charger, it can run at low wattage.
So yeah, we could just have it at home. That would be a bit bulky of a granny cable, tho!
And expensive, $9000 for this 25kW one (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074Z9SG2J).
But you don't need 25kW at the house, so you'd probably choose a lower-power version ^-^;
-Crissa
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I didn't say or imply all J1772 stations are 32 A.
I've never seen a 19.2 KW J1772, but that is the spec maximum, not "The issue is the J1772 plug itself. Only approved for 6.6 KW."
The Chargpoint I used yesterday said it was "6.6 KW per port " and had two ports. So that means that J-station can do 13.2 KW (or up to 55 amps). I am glad to see that the newer charge stations don't drop the power when two vehicles are charging from the same two-port station. This means I can charge from this station at all the power I want as I can use both ports from the same station. This new J-1772 stuff getting as good as most Tesla destination chargers at least when I can hog them both.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My company went on the "cheap" because the Chargepoint stations in our parking lot only deliver the full 6.6kW if only one vehicle is hooked up. If a second one is hooked up they each get a maximum of 3.3kW. Still, that's better than nothing and as I was stuck at my desk even 3.3kW is fast enough for me to disconnect after our two-hour limit in the spot has expired (not that all of our employees observe that limitation).
Since the pandemic, though, most of my charging is once again overnight in my garage... but usually only once a week. Occasionally more often if I meet friends for a dinner ride after work. Weekends I take advantage of all of the L2 stations in my area for longer rides.
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The Chargpoint I used yesterday said it was "6.6 KW per port " and had two ports. So that means that J-station can do 13.2 KW (or up to 55 amps). I am glad to see that the newer charge stations don't drop the power when two vehicles are charging from the same two-port station. This means I can charge from this station at all the power I want as I can use both ports from the same station. This new J-1772 stuff getting as good as most Tesla destination chargers at least when I can hog them both.
You will never get 13.2kW from a single port on those type of stations.
Also I can't help but notice you stopped reading the wiki page at, literally, the first paragraph. The next paragraph reads:
The CARB regulation of 2001 mandated the usage of SAE J1772-2001 beginning with the 2006 model year. Later requirements asked for higher currents to be used than the Avcon connector could provide. This process led to the proposal of a new round connector design by Yazaki which allows for an increased power delivery of up to 19.2 kW delivered via single phase 120–240 V AC at up to 80 amperes.
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The round connector that nearly all use now, Vetter?
-Crissa
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You will never get 13.2kW from a single port on those type of stations.
As long as I bring two J-adapters I can use almost 8 KW from both on the same pole (newer stns) , which is all I care about.
Also I can't help but notice you stopped reading the wiki page at, literally, the first paragraph. The next paragraph reads:
The CARB regulation of 2001 mandated the usage of SAE J1772-2001 beginning with the 2006 model year. Later requirements asked for higher currents to be used than the Avcon connector could provide. This process led to the proposal of a new round connector design by Yazaki which allows for an increased power delivery of up to 19.2 kW delivered via single phase 120–240 V AC at up to 80 amperes.
I read it, but I don't care about "proposals".
That somehow reminds me of Lightning motorcycles . . .
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The round connector that nearly all use now, Vetter?
-Crissa
Just looked it up. Yes, that is EXACTLY the connector. The original J1772 standard called for a rectangular connector.
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I was pretty sure we used the round connector that's beefier than we needed ^-^
-Crissa
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EVSE circuits are not rated in kilowatts in N. America where the AC voltage for L2 varies and can be anything from 208Vac to 277Vac. What some of us are confused by is a reduction of information when the correct data is input into EVSE-finding apps and website services so that you can easily sort through to find the most capable EVSE.
For example, Plugshare entries largely come from Tesla owners as they are the hot flavor of mass-production EV; the car doesn't tell you anything about kW (at least not in my Model 3 and I don't recall anything like that in the Model X or S), instead you get amps and volts as it should be, and when input into Plugshare it does the math and reduces the information to kilowatts. Further complicating things is that Chargepoint does this same reduction of data on their graphs and billing reports.
Lemons make lemonade. Apples make apple juice. Fruit makes fruit juice. What fruit is in fruit juice? Nobody knows!
**correction** the Tesla UI on Model 3 and Android app does list kW/V/A all three. Powered from JuiceBox40 J1772 on home inverter. Screenshots:
(https://i.imgur.com/xRSFnNY.png)(https://i.imgur.com/sUwtjM9.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/xDH4POf.jpg)
Also my apologies I don't have compatibility with CCS on this vehicle so I don't have value to add to this discussion about CCS and EV motorcycles.
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I don't see why the average driver cares about anything but the watts.
Sure, the EVSE really only cares about the melty melty amps, but...
-Crissa