ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Lightning => Topic started by: JaimeC on December 16, 2020, 06:41:15 AM
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Electric Cowboy was hired to pick up an LS-218 at the factory. It didn't go as planned.
https://is.gd/CuFVEQ
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Working on an edit from the GoPro I was holding. Strange day.
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Regardless of Lightning being weird and unfriendly, pretty normal you can’t pick up a new bike for someone without something on paper... If I would try to do that and ask the vendor to trust me on my word (even with the buyer on the phone, who could be anyone) that would be a no go.
Buyer needs to be there in person or a legal document has to be shown before you can pick up a bike...
This seems like activly looking for drama. True, Lightning did handle that situation completely wrong but I can’t shake the feeling you guys went in there expecting and maybe even hoping that what happened would happen...
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https://youtu.be/UAVzPk0LaH8
I see a video of a couple guys who didn't call ahead, then didn't leave when asked to.
The woman seemed very polite, she could have called the cops on you guys.
-Crissa
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Regardless of Lightning being weird and unfriendly, pretty normal you can’t pick up a new bike for someone without something on paper... If I would try to do that and ask the vendor to trust me on my word (even with the buyer on the phone, who could be anyone) that would be a no go.
Buyer needs to be there in person or a legal document has to be shown before you can pick up a bike...
This seems like activly looking for drama. True, Lightning did handle that situation completely wrong but I can’t shake the feeling you guys went in there expecting and maybe even hoping that what happened would happen...
To be clear, it was 100% understood by Lightning that the owner was in Florida, 2600 miles away, and would have agents picking up the bike on his behalf. There was no debate about this. Plenty of text logs.
The morning we left, I gave a courtesy call to Mike Corbin. It is Corbin's factory that Lightning are renting a section of. He welcomed us and said, "the bike looks great!" and we told him we'd see him within an hour. We are welcome at Corbin's factory.
As soon as we were asked to leave the area Lightning is renting, we did. I mean he did slam the gate on us but, again, we are welcome at the Corbin factory. Drama only happened when they decided they had a problem with the agents picking up the bike in question. You could clearly hear the customer requesting that we be allowed to take the bike.
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https://youtu.be/UAVzPk0LaH8
I see a video of a couple guys who didn't call ahead, then didn't leave when asked to.
The woman seemed very polite, she could have called the cops on you guys.
-Crissa
Hey Chrissa,
Hope you are doing well. You might have skipped around. If you watch the whole thing, I show the messages from the owner where he spoke to JoJo about us picking the bike up and the time we were to pick it up at. Also, it might be a little hard to hear, but on the phone the owner told JoJo he wanted me to pick up the bike. Also, there is a section where I am on the phone with the owner and he made it clear that he wanted me to take the bike if they couldn't deliver it to FL by this Friday for his race that he has paid thousands of dollars for.
All in all, they said they would release the bike to us if the customer said to, but after he said to, they changed their story and refused.
I agree JoJo definitely tried to be nice, but there were some times where she was pretty clear, like when I said "What if the owner says he wants me to pick up his bike" and she responded "He can't". But this is after she said she will do what the customer wants. It doesn't line up.
In the end, this guy that paid in full for his bike, might be out thousands of dollars because his bike wont be there in time for the race. It is super unfortunate that he might lose that opportunity. And super unfortunate that I won't be able to earn the money we were promised. I have a family you know, and we need to eat. Things like this make it very hard. Driving a bike across the country in 4 days or less would have helped me pay rent, a lot.
Also, delivering the bike to me would have been a big win, I mean if I, of all people, took delivery from lightning, they would have won a lot. I was prepared to eat my words, but sadly, the way this went down, it was just bad.
I just feel bad for Steven who will be out all that money for his races just because Richard doesn't like me.
Happy holidays!
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Probably should have given a referral to some entity in the motorcycle transport business. Liscenced, insured all that sort of stuff.
I am not watching the videos but there are names of commenters to put into search sites.
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Probably should have given a referral to some entity in the motorcycle transport business. Liscenced, insured all that sort of stuff.
The problem is the extremely tight schedule. When we filmed this on 12/15 the plan was to head cross-country and deliver by 12/20. No one like HaulBikes is going to be able to get it done in that window. We were willing.
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Would adversary relationship be fair word for relationship. The main thing would be to get said bike out of the manufacturing location, I would think. Lots of races did not happen lately. You guys seem more in the video creation business than the motorcycle transport business. Hard to believe some test ride incentive is not at play here.
Just a side note. Portable sawmill, band type in this cost class business is done 1 to 5 thousand deposit balance bank check to the trucker at delivery. I think the manufacturers are all 4 months or so lead time. Similar for special order F150, Similar for Ag tractor built to spec. Those are somewhat less lead time. Why there is a sense that pay in full before it gets on the delivery method is acceptable in the electric motorcycle business is puzzling. Dealer network bad, $500 uncrating deposit and balance at pick up, that would make such product way more cost.
Fran
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You guys seem more in the video creation business than the motorcycle transport business. Hard to believe some test ride incentive is not at play here.
I think this would have made for a cool video. And once in Florida, if the owner wanted Brandon to test and inspect the bike, that would have been on the table. But as it stood we had no intention of doing anything other than looking at the bike and hauling it to Florida. And by looking I mean looking. No tools, no disassembly without the owner there with us watching.
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Alas, a business is in its right not to do business with a customer or contractor they don't want to. Depending on the contract, they might be able to refund the bike, too.
Corbin isn't selling the bike, so calling them wasn't appropriate.
Cash out the door was my experience with every bike except Ducati. And they wanted signed papers and two ids that I was responsible for paying for it.
-Crissa
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Alas, a business is in its right not to do business with a customer or contractor they don't want to. Depending on the contract, they might be able to refund the bike, too.
....
-Crissa
Could not mail fraud come into play? You have had some legal opinions on here in the past?
Going back to the sawmill example. Buy a sawmill from Alabama no sales tax if a real trucker with dot number picks it up either you or the manufacturer picks the trucker no difference. If you send your buddy or go yourself they have a special two point something sales tax. Since this is a race bike not a dot one (may be wrong) sales tax could come into play.
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Yeah, that varies by state, and I don't know California's rule on shipping via a third party. I've only dealt with licensed shippers. (And I've never shipped a car!)
I think for most states you just need the right registration paperwork already processed. If not, then it gets into tax considerations...
Anyhow, I can't get UPS to pick up from a FedEx only place, or hire a non-union truck to pick up from a union shop. This is no different, really. If they won't deal with you, well, gotta pick a different agent.
-Crissa
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Corbin isn't selling the bike, so calling them wasn't appropriate.
Corbin owns the facility. Lightning just leases some space in it. Since it seems Brandon enjoys a friendly relationship with Mike Corbin he was just being polite.
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Alas, a business is in its right not to do business with a customer or contractor they don't want to. Depending on the contract, they might be able to refund the bike, too.
Corbin isn't selling the bike, so calling them wasn't appropriate.
Cash out the door was my experience with every bike except Ducati. And they wanted signed papers and two ids that I was responsible for paying for it.
-Crissa
Not entirely true. If he had refused to deal with them because they were black, he would have been in violation. Looks to me like the business is tanking and this guy is really high strung about it.
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Corbin owns the facility.
A landlord has no right to give access to a tenant's space without two things: a valid maintenance issue (and appropriate warning, usually 24hrs) or the tenant's permission. That they're the landlord does not give them this right and this cannot be signed away by contract.
If he had refused to deal with them because they were black, ...
Yes, the reason cannot include 'being in a protected class'. But 'agents of customer' is not a protected class, nor is 'you meddling kids'.
-Crissa
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What surprises me the most about all of this is the fact that there is someone out there that would actually trust Lightning to build a motorcycle to a promised spec and to do it with a tight time line in mind. Maybe on paper the LS-218 looks better than an Energica Ego but when you look at how Lightning built the Strike under spec and realizing they could do the same with the LS-218 it was a huge risk in my opinion. Even if the delivery had went as planned the owner could have ended up with a bike that was far under spec and not race worthy at all and no time to fix it.
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What surprises me the most about all of this is the fact that there is someone out there that would actually trust Lightning to build a motorcycle to a promised spec and to do it with a tight time line in mind. Maybe on paper the LS-218 looks better than an Energica Ego but when you look at how Lightning built the Strike under spec and realizing they could do the same with the LS-218 it was a huge risk in my opinion. Even if the delivery had went as planned the owner could have ended up with a bike that was far under spec and not race worthy at all and no time to fix it.
BINGO!!!!
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Alas, a business is in its right not to do business with a customer or contractor they don't want to. Depending on the contract, they might be able to refund the bike, too.
Corbin isn't selling the bike, so calling them wasn't appropriate.
Cash out the door was my experience with every bike except Ducati. And they wanted signed papers and two ids that I was responsible for paying for it.
-Crissa
Not entirely true. If he had refused to deal with them because they were black, he would have been in violation. Looks to me like the business is tanking and this guy is really high strung about it.
There did seem like a certain level of tension going on in that building. :o I wonder how things are turning out for the customer of the LS-218? On the other hand, if the customer really needed a fast and safe shipment there are plenty of reliable and bonded shipping companies that could deliver the bike to him relatively quickly and safely. All it takes is money and the proper paperwork.
However, perhaps Richard also didn't want anyone who knew what they were doing to check over the build quality, components and performance of the bike before it reached the customer's hands and he got all of his money.
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At this point from all I've seen, I'd have to be out of my bloody mind to even consider a Lightning. It would be SO simple for Richard to address all of the issues that have been raised in a civil manner but he insists on being belligerent and adversarial. Brandon and Morgan pointed out the GLARING deficiencies in the Strike when it was released and to the best of my knowledge, NONE of those issues were ever addressed. Instead, Richard has decided he'd rather not deal with the messengers at all. I have no idea what is keeping that company in business but if I ever decide I want a high-end electric bike, Lightning will NOT even rate a microsecond of consideration.
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A landlord has no right to give access to a tenant's space without two things: a valid maintenance issue (and appropriate warning, usually 24hrs) or the tenant's permission. That they're the landlord does not give them this right and this cannot be signed away by contract.
-Crissa
Except Corbin owns AND operates the majority of the building, the whole building is not Lightning's. All that Lightning does is sublease/rent a small portion of their warehouse. Corbin didn't give them access to Lightning's space. They were granted access to be on Corbin's property and in Corbin's place of business/production. When asked, they stepped outside of Lightning's space.
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Except Corbin...
Which is why they were excluded from the fenced area, and it was inappropriate to call Corbin, and not Lightning.
There's no 'except' here. Corbin can't say whether they can pick up a bike in their factory when it belongs to a tenant.
-Crissa
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The way everything was approached here makes it entirely expected.
You guys have been very openly (and rightly) critical of Lightning to the point that we've seen a video of Richard screaming about suing you before. He's obviously belligerent and specifically hateful of you for shining a light on his companies issues.
Then you gave Corbin a heads up you were coming, a very polite thing to do, but you did not give lightning a heads up you were coming.
Steven said he would have someone pick up the bike is good, but it's unbelievably short-sighted that he apparently didn't communicate exactly who was picking up the bike.
You can see in the video they weren't particularly expecting anyone to show up, but they certainly were not expecting the two of you, and weren't expecting to be filmed without warning or consent in their own space.
So this belligerent hothead of a CEO sees you show up, unannounced, filming. Of course he was going to react poorly! It would be absolutely shocking if he reacted any other way.
He probably sees you as the #1 biggest threat and antagonist to his company. He sees your valid criticism as active malice. He's not going to look inwards and address the issues with his company or himself. He's going to see you, in his space, and lash out. There is no other outcome. It's hard to believe you wouldn't anticipate this.
I certainly believe you were acting in good faith to deliver the bike to Steven, that you hoped the bike would actually meet its promises, and would no doubt be truthful about whatever the case is with the bike.
But I really think you could have handled this better. You came in knowing it could likely be a volatile situation and seemingly didn't take the small steps necessary to possibly smooth things over. So much of this could have been addressed with better communication before hand. Steven should have made it crystal clear who was coming to pick up his bike and when, and you should have called Lightning to confirm the pickup and pickup time instead of just calling Corbin.
None of this excuses Richards tantrum, his poor business practices, or his treatment of you. How anyone trusts their money with this company at this point is completely lost on me.
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The way everything was approached here makes it entirely expected.
Your entire analysis was put eloquently, and matches my sentiments exactly.
But on a meta level, we can see that creating drama is a very effective means of getting a message across in the age of the Internet where most contributions just become noise. Even if we recognize and dislike that, we have to admit it can succeed in altering our opinion (e.g. neither of us would buy a Lightning and maybe not an SR/F either), especially if the defensive party never acknowledges or rebuts the most substantive claims.
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Except Corbin...
Which is why they were excluded from the fenced area, and it was inappropriate to call Corbin, and not Lightning.
There's no 'except' here. Corbin can't say whether they can pick up a bike in their factory when it belongs to a tenant.
-Crissa
This isn't a tenant law case - nowhere near it, they did not trespass. Trespass is when someone doesn't leave property after they were asked. They left the 'property' (small caged area) when asked. They called the owner AND operator of the property asking if they are allowed on that premises for business, that owner approved. Additionally, Lightning already approved a 3rd party could pick up the bike. They didn't call and ask Corbin for permission to pick up the bike, they already had that permission from Lightning and the owner of the motorcycle. The first time permission was revoked was when Richard found out who was picking up the bike.
I'm starting my own EV moto company.. for reals! Please send me $1k+ for my motorcycle that I swear does 500miles on a charge, charges in 10 seconds, weighs 25lbs, 0-60 in 0.5seconds, and has self driving technology. MSRP $10,000 (maybe, idk we haven't figured out production at all). Pre orders placed today will be delivered upon my death... I swear... seriously... guys.. it's real just.. don't ask questions or ask for updates until I'm dead.
It may not seem like it, but I want Lightning to succeed. I want to be proved wrong and eat my words.
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Unless lightning or corbin is planning on pressing charges, the trespassing argument is irrelevant. This is drama through personal interactions. These are social and communication issues not legal ones.
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Wow, I am shocked at the variety of reactions. It is very interesting to see how opinions can seem polar opposite based on if they are following the logical paths to their conclusions, or getting pulled off into, what I consider, irrelevant side topics that have no bearing on the more tangible facts and points of the content.
I think it is really cool that everyone finds this a topic worth discussing, and I look forward to seeing how the group consensus shapes up through this.
By the way, just as an additional piece of data, it's now the day after the bike needed to arrive, but it has not yet been shipped.
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Wow, I am shocked at the variety of reactions. It is very interesting to see how opinions can seem polar opposite based on if they are following the logical paths to their conclusions, or getting pulled off into, what I consider, irrelevant side topics that have no bearing on the more tangible facts and points of the content.
I think it is really cool that everyone finds this a topic worth discussing, and I look forward to seeing how the group consensus shapes up through this.
By the way, just as an additional piece of data, it's now the day after the bike needed to arrive, but it has not yet been shipped.
Is that a surprise to you and the customer? ::) I hope the customer has not fully paid for the Lightning that he ordered. :(
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I hope the customer has not fully paid for the Lightning that he ordered. :(
Of course he has!
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So in the LA to Vegas write up there was a picture with two Energicas on the back of a motorcycle moving truck.
Was that yalls company?
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Is that a surprise to you and the customer?
Richard one has to think the folks that put their stuff out on facebook want for wandreing minds to find it. This Steven who you can figure out who he is by putting the video on closed caption right at the begining posted this on his facebook page
"Evr L Lc
December 13 at 8:50 PM ·
Team EVR is guaranteed to have the only Lightning LS218
at Roebling Road Raceway this next weekend.
#ElectricVehicleRacingLLC
#lightningls218
#roeblingroadraceway
#checkeredflag"
So it would appear the customer expected such. I have not yet figured out how to find the results and see if Steven had another bike to enter.
Racing is really dangerous. I see a picture of him with a cast on an arm.
Whether Harley is somehow behind this has crossed my mind.
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So in the LA to Vegas write up there was a picture with two Energicas on the back of a motorcycle moving truck.
Was that yalls company?
No, we really wanted t do the LA Vegas trip too, but couldn't make it.
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Racing is really dangerous. I see a picture of him with a cast on an arm.
Whether Harley is somehow behind this has crossed my mind.
Poor guy got sideswiped at an intersection on his LiveWire after a day of track practice. Often times the road is more dangerous than the track.
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Is that a surprise to you and the customer?
Richard one has to think the folks that put their stuff out on facebook want for wandreing minds to find it. This Steven who you can figure out who he is by putting the video on closed caption right at the begining posted this on his facebook page
"Evr L Lc
December 13 at 8:50 PM ·
Team EVR is guaranteed to have the only Lightning LS218
at Roebling Road Raceway this next weekend.
#ElectricVehicleRacingLLC
#lightningls218
#roeblingroadraceway
#checkeredflag"
So it would appear the customer expected such. I have not yet figured out how to find the results and see if Steven had another bike to enter.
Racing is really dangerous. I see a picture of him with a cast on an arm.
Whether Harley is somehow behind this has crossed my mind.
I was thinking of Lightning's track record for delivering the LS-218 and some of their other models, like a street electric motorcycle that was on display at the EV show in San Jose in 2014. I think the price of that bike was said to be around $17K. Here is a poster ad from the Lightning display at the 2014 San Jose EV show. If anyone has actually received an LS-218 I haven't heard about it. ???
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If you dig around on this subforum you will find a guy who has a custom 700 volt track-only LS218 that he uses for going very fast in a straight line. AKA drag races.
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If you dig around on this subforum you will find a guy who has a custom 700 volt track-only LS218 that he uses for going very fast in a straight line. AKA drag races.
That makes one. Doesn't seem like quite enough sales to keep a motorcycle company open for very long. ???
And then there was the guy, I think he was from South Africa, that blew his stack over his order of a couple of LS-218 bikes and claimed that he paid for the bikes and they never came. I am pretty sure that his long rant can also be found on this sub-forum.
BTW, here is a photo from the 2014 EV show of Lightning's pre-production electric motorcycle that was proposed to be sold for street use on the retail market as a competitor to Zero and Brammo. A precursor of the Strike. Anyone every seen one of these on the road?
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I thought I saw a white one on 9 at Skyline, but they wouldn't talk to me.
-Crissa
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I thought I saw a white one on 9 at Skyline, but they wouldn't talk to me.
-Crissa
That might have been an employee from Lightning going out for a test ride. ???
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The red bike shown above is just a standard wuxi electric motorcycle. Much like the little mini bike they said they made. You can actually buy both on Alibaba from several manufacturers.
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It always seemed really odd how obvious that mini-bike was the same as a million cookie cutter china bikes we've seen before but seemingly no one that covered it noticed or called it out.
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It was called out everywhere it showed up here?
-Crissa