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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: gt13013 on July 09, 2021, 12:56:23 PM

Title: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 09, 2021, 12:56:23 PM
Hello,

My 2016 FXS was running fine until these days. Some days ago I have charged the bike during night using the standard cord and a manual timer. The bike charged from 58% to 73% in 1h 30min. Until there all seemed OK.

But when I tried to use the bike the day after, the bike did not start.
1) When keying on the bike: no "click". After 1min 30s the headlight turns off and the screen starts flashing.
2) When I plug in the charging cord: no "click". After 1min 30s the screen starts flashing.

I have written a page with much more details (MBB log, errors on dash, videos showing the dash and the BMS LEDs in both above cases): https://bit.ly/FXSbreakdown

I am looking for a way to diagnose the problem, and, if possible, to solve it myself in order to save time (I am afraid that if I take the bike to the dealership, there will be weeks of downtime...)

Thank you in advance for your expert advice!
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: Say10 15FX 16FXS on July 09, 2021, 09:49:51 PM
I've had a similar experience on both of mine. Try cycling the key a few times. Mine came back after a few tries and I heard the contactors chooch. Was fine after that.
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 09, 2021, 10:46:09 PM
Quote from: Say10 15FX 16FXS on July 09, 2021, 09:49:51 PM
I've had a similar experience on both of mine. Try cycling the key a few times. Mine came back after a few tries and I heard the contactors chooch. Was fine after that.
Thanks for the advice, but I have tried turning the key about 30 times and it did not solve the problem.


By the way, I noticed that in the logs, it appeared new lines that I have not seen before:
DEBUG: Reset: Software
BMS Reset     Software

So, I will look now deeper in the  BMS resetting possibilities...

Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: Richard230 on July 10, 2021, 03:41:45 AM
The only times I have seen a flashing dash is when I get a firmware update and once when my OBC was being tested by the BMS and it apparently determined that there was a malfunction. Turning the key on and off cleared that issue and it never returned - until the OBC finally failed.  ::)
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 04:21:23 AM
Some updates (all the details are in the page https://bit.ly/FXSbreakdown that has been updated).

It does not seem to be a problem with the BMS and the battery

Abnormal behavior :
- bike does not start
- bike does not charge
- no click
- dash is flashing 1min 30s after keying or after attempting to charge
- the red triangular indicator on the dash does not behave the same way when side stand is up or down
- when side stand is up, the red triangular indicator says "Contactor error"
- the dash indicates errors :
        25  Contactor open warning
        27  Precharge error
        48  SEVCON startup disabe (only once, not cycling)
        49  Contactor open disable
        58  BMS sensor warning

- when trying to charge, the BMS LEDs indicate that the bike is balancing, instead of indicating the SOC



Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: Richard230 on July 10, 2021, 04:48:27 AM
That sounds like something that the factory would need to investigate. It sounds like a real mess to me.  :o
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: DonTom on July 10, 2021, 05:11:57 AM
If the contactor is open, nothing will work, but since you have all those errors, I wonder if something is preventing the contactor from closing.


Did you try a reset of the BMS (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure)?


-Don-  Cold Springs Valley, NV




Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 05:28:56 AM
Quote from: DonTom on July 10, 2021, 05:11:57 AM
Did you try a reset of the BMS (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure)?

Yes, I tried the hardware and software reset on the BMS, with both batteries.
I also tried to run the bike with only one battery.
But that was not successful...
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: NEW2elec on July 10, 2021, 05:45:48 AM
Sounds like you may have a wielded contactor.

It wouldn't be the first one but not real common.
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: DonTom on July 10, 2021, 06:13:31 AM
Quote from: NEW2elec on July 10, 2021, 05:45:48 AM
Sounds like you may have a wielded contactor.
But can a contactor welded closed give the error of "25 Contactor open warning"?


-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 06:15:52 AM
Do you know where is the contactor on a FXS ? And how does it look like ?
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: DonTom on July 10, 2021, 08:03:02 AM
Quote from: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 06:15:52 AM
Do you know where is the contactor on a FXS ? And how does it look like ?
See here. (https://zeromanual.com/index.php?title=Main_Contactor&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop)


-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 09:02:48 PM
Thanks Don.
I opened the bike (https://photos.app.goo.gl/cwSGKcjEqh6YbhgF6) looking for a Gigavac GX11 contactor (https://www.gigavac.com/sites/default/files/catalog/spec_sheet/gx11.pdf), but I was not able to find the contactor(s?) (since I have 2 removable batteries, is there one or two ?)
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: DonTom on July 10, 2021, 09:09:59 PM
Quote from: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 09:02:48 PM
Thanks Don.
I opened the bike (https://photos.app.goo.gl/cwSGKcjEqh6YbhgF6) looking for a Gigavac GX11 contactor (https://www.gigavac.com/sites/default/files/catalog/spec_sheet/gx11.pdf), but I was not able to find the contactor(s?) (since I have 2 removable batteries, is there one or two ?)
There is contactor  in each battery case.  The contactor is  inside the battery case.


-Don-  Reno, NV




Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 09:46:45 PM
OK. Thanks !
That is confirmed by the exploded view (https://www.af1racing.com/2014-2020-FX-FXS-Spare-Parts-Catalogs).

By the way, it means that the problem probably does not come from the contactors themselves (it is very unprobable that they both die at the same time!).
Consequently, the problem must be at a upper level...

Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: NEW2elec on July 10, 2021, 10:06:00 PM
 I agree the chances of 2 contactors going out at the same time seems unlikely.
I guess I should have said failed and not wielded.

But as the manual says the fail safe is now the open position.

The main bike board and maybe the controller are the only things over the contactor.

It would be nice to have a Delta Q charger to see if that helps by bypassing the onboard charger.

It looks like a dealer visit is in order.  Sorry.
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 11:00:09 PM
I have an external charger. I am going to try if it can wake up the bike...
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 11:31:23 PM
The external charger does not help.
It seems that the external charger needs that the contactor closes first, in order to work (when everything is working, I initiate the sequence using either the key, or the internal charger, and then the external charger is able to charge).
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: DonTom on July 11, 2021, 12:11:26 AM
Quote from: gt13013 on July 10, 2021, 11:31:23 PM
The external charger does not help.It seems that the external charger needs that the contactor closes first, in order to work (when everything is working, I initiate the sequence using either the key, or the internal charger, and then the external charger is able to charge).
Yes, either the OBC must be used or the bike's  key must be on to close he contactor to use an external charger.


IIRC, there are several leads that leave the battery for some lower voltage stuff. A tap from the battery turns on the contactor through the ignition switch, IIRC.


This schematic  (https://zeromanual.com/index.php?title=2016_X-Platform_Wiring_Diagram&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop)shows the ignition switch wiring. Kinda looks like the key turns on the MBB (Main Bike Board) and the MBB turns on the contactor.


Your problem could be the MMB, which a dealer will probably have to deal with. Perhaps not much you can do other than make sure connections are okay.


-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 21, 2021, 04:50:56 PM
I brought the bike to a dealer yesterday. They have done tests and the conclusion is a defective MBB. I should have the bike repaired by August 7th. Replacing the MBB will be an expensive repair...

I am wondering how the MBB could have definitely failed during this charging night.
I was using a manual timer to stop the charge around 80% SOC.
I have previously noticed that sometimes the timer has some hesitations when cutting the power.
It is possible that at the end the timer put power on and off several times in a short delay, and perhaps the MBB did not appreciate that... It's just a guess, but I probably will not use this timer anymore.
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: DonTom on July 21, 2021, 10:23:27 PM
Quote from: gt13013 on July 21, 2021, 04:50:56 PM
I brought the bike to a dealer yesterday. They have done tests and the conclusion is a defective MBB. I should have the bike repaired by August 7th. Replacing the MBB will be an expensive repair...

I am wondering how the MBB could have definitely failed during this charging night.
I was using a manual timer to stop the charge around 80% SOC.
I have previously noticed that sometimes the timer has some hesitations when cutting the power.
It is possible that at the end the timer put power on and off several times in a short delay, and perhaps the MBB did not appreciate that... It's just a guess, but I probably will not use this timer anymore.
I once heard about trying to charge when the contactor is open can blow out the MBB, so perhaps that timer can explain it.


IIRC, I heard that from Shadow a while back, perhaps he can tell you more.


I don't try to stop my Zeros from charging to full.  But if I don't expect to be riding them for a while, I try to ride just enough to get the battery around 60% SOC.


Perhaps an expensive lesson was learned about using a cheap timer. I think the odds are very high that caused your MBB to crap out.


Be sure to post here what it cost you.


IRRC, not only is the part is expensive, but it is very difficult to replace and then the entire bike has to be programmed into it. Perhaps the most expensive thing to replace other than the battery (when out of warranty).


-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: NEW2elec on July 22, 2021, 02:00:00 AM
While I'm glad they feel they have the problem source, I know that's not a cheap repair.

I would agree to drop the timer.  Some of the big EE guys have said those just aren't able to handle the steady amp pull that the bikes make.

I remember some guys had to replace their kickstand safety switch after it got damaged to failed.  They gave a big warning not to short the wires if someone was going to replace the switch themselves as doing so would fry the MBB.

Hope you get it back soon enough to enjoy more summer and fall riding.
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 22, 2021, 02:31:22 AM
The dealer told me that the  repair should cost 2062 € (i.e. $ 2433 at the current change), and should take 3 hours of work.
Do you think that the commissioning will be necessarily done at this occasion?

If trying to charge while the bike is not "ready" can destroy the bike, Zero should correct the problem and add some protection.
It seems somewhat related with this : https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Precharge
My bike had its original firmware, but after this repair it will now get an updated firmware. I would be happy to know if the new firmware has these protections added !

The timer by itself is not defective. And it is cutting only a 3 Amps current, so it is not a lot !
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: DonTom on July 22, 2021, 02:47:35 AM
Quote from: gt13013 on July 22, 2021, 02:31:22 AM
The dealer told me that the  repair should cost 2062 € (i.e. $ 2433 at the current change), and should take 3 hours of work.
Do you think that the commissioning will be necessarily done at this occasion?

If trying to charge while the bike is not "ready" can destroy the bike, Zero should correct the problem and add some protection.
It seems somewhat related with this : https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Precharge (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Precharge)
My bike had its original firmware, but after this repair it will now get an updated firmware. I would be happy to know if the new firmware has these protections added !

The timer by itself is not defective. And it is cutting only a 3 Amps current, so it is not a lot !
A few amps shutting off and on fast is asking for problems, IMO.


The commissioning, I would think would be done at the controller to align up with the motor.  However, perhaps the controller  does get it's info from the  MBB. I really do not know. Your dealer will know and if you find out, please post the info here.


Your cost is about what I  expect for a new MBB.


-Don- 
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: Crissa on July 22, 2021, 04:16:11 AM
Many timers are listed at more watts than they can take with a resistive load.  Like, a 15a one actually only being able to carry 7.5a.

But you can totally make one capable enough.  Just make sure it's designed for that resistive load and has a decent warranty ^-^

-Crissa
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: Curt on July 22, 2021, 05:40:29 AM
I've been leery of something going wrong ever since buying my '16 FX, so I'm always careful with it. Careful to:

- Plug in quickly and make sure the plug is fully seated before the contactor clicks
- Treat the plug with WD-40 periodically
- Don't unplug until charging is complete and no current is flowing
- Never switch the key or the power source more than once in quick succession

Even so, and even though it draws only 650W (5.5A), the charging inlet gets quite hot to the touch.

I know it's just a matter of time before something goes -- most likely the OBC. There have already been three times that I plugged in to charge, then came back later only to find the whole display flashing. So far, those times have magically resolved themselves.
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: Crissa on July 22, 2021, 10:47:47 AM
An FX doesn't draw that much current.  You could always just use a power switch designed for the voltage and load, which is what I did.

No mucking about with worrying I'm going to fobble the plug, I just plug it in, then activate the power.

-Crissa
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: Curt on July 23, 2021, 01:56:03 PM
I had mine on a 1500W Alexa-compatible smart plug, but ended up never using it so I repurposed it for something else.
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 31, 2021, 05:09:49 AM
I got the bike back yesterday.
Finally they have replaced the controler.
They had to do the commissioning after this replacement.

During the operation, 2300 kms have been added to the ODO !!! Probably an error in the initialization of the new system.

And the bike passed from
   Firmware rev.      47
   Board rev.         3
   Model              FXS
   Initial date       Apr 11 2016 13:57:48
to
   Firmware rev.      56
   Board rev.         3
   Model              FXS
   Initial date       Sep 10 2019 10:56:47






Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: Crissa on July 31, 2021, 05:11:29 AM
How do you add 2300km to the ODO? O-o

-Crissa
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: gt13013 on July 31, 2021, 02:00:07 PM
See the attached log
The dealer operation is between lines 7054 and 7943
The change in ODO kms is between lines 7485 and 7508
Title: Re: FXS 2016: full breakdown, flashing dash
Post by: Auriga on July 31, 2021, 10:21:58 PM
Yeah, replacing an MBB can cause this. A dealer can fix it. We're supposed to check it when we do stuff like that.