ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Larry295 on July 09, 2012, 03:42:57 AM
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I have a 2012 Zero S ZF6.
I wanted to test the freeway range.
So I did 90% freeway at 65 mph, and a few passes at 70max. So fairly conservative overall. I even encounter a bit of traffic where I was doing 30-45 for a couple of miles.
Results are in: 34 miles and the last 2 bars started blinking on the dash. This probably mean 40-41 until empty.
Conclusion: freeway is really to be avoided if you need your full range.
Next i'll test the 100% city riding and post what happens.
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I think your city range will more likely be determined upon how hard your butt is. ::)
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34 miles at freeway speeds (with a bit of slower travel) for the ZF6 is pretty good - you still have about 25% of the pack left at two blinking bars.
Definitely keeping speeds down helps. As a counterpoint, I did 31 miles on my ZF9 today using approximately 50% of the pack, with a majority of that at 65-80 mph (and the rest at 50+ mph).
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2bars blinking = 25% battery left? Why would you say that?
From my observations, it looks like each bar is pretty much equal in terms of the number of miles it allows you to ride.
On the freeway, I was pretty much loosing 1bar per 3.7 miles. So 2 bars left would have taken me 7.4miles further I think... So a theoretical 34+7.4 = 41.4 miles
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The final bar disappears on the ZF9 bike at about 7.0 kWh discharged from the pack (technically about 16 Ah remaining capacity).
I don't know whether the display uses Wh or Ah to track capacity; I believe it's probably using Wh, as I have a couple of times seen the bike show 10 bars available in the afternoon when I leave work, vs 9 bars available when I parked in the morning. This is probably due to the battery voltage rising slightly after the bike sits; Ah remains the same, but the theoretical Wh remaining (voltage * remaining Ah) increases slightly.
Assume 11 bars evenly spanning 7.0 kWh, 636 Wh/bar.
Two bars blinking = 9+ bars discharged. 9 * 636 Wh = 5.73 kWh, 5.73 kWh / 7.9 kWh = 72.5% discharged.
The ZF6 probably uses the same capacity measurement as the ZF9, just proportionally smaller.
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Gotcha, makes sense.
I have never measured the charge. So when I see 2 bars blinking, I just head home ASAP :)
I just assume 6-8miles left on aggressive riding, and 12 on easy riding.
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On my ZF9 I can ride 60 miles at 60 MPH.
I am able to get about six miles per bar at that speed, but I found that the last two bars don't last six miles, rather they last only a couple of miles each.
In the last week I rode to Sacramento twice (about 42 miles from my house), plugged in for a couple of hours and headed back home. It took seven bars to get there, so when I headed home with eight bars on my gauge I thought I had plenty of energy left. But the 10th bar disappeared after only a couple of miles. I pulled off of the freeway at the next exit (a couple of miles later) at which time the last bar disappeared. I was still about five miles from home! But, I continued to ride with no bars on the gauge (at 35 MPH) and made it home without any error messages, or any loss of power.
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It's possible that the pack voltage drops more at high power draw / low charge, and the capacity display adjusts accordingly. I wonder if the capacity display would have gone back up if you had gotten off the interstate and shut off the bike for a few minutes (and then continued home at a lower pace).
On my bike the very first bar seems to disappear after about 2/3 of the normal miles. The rest of the bars (down to 0) seem to be pretty regular, but I haven't tried going freeway speed at a low SOC.
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That first bar is a strange one. I rode my bike both yesterday and today to the same location and at the same speed in the same weather (cool, damp, fog) and in the same mode (Sport). Yesterday the first bar disappeared at 7 miles and today is disappeared at 10 miles. ???
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Ya those bars are strange.
On a ZF6, with the 500miles I have put on it so far, I can pretty much say that the bars typically will last 5-6 miles in town, and a little less than 4 on the freeway...
Now for the last 2 blinking bars, I am not too sure since I head home when it gets to that point.
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I ride harder than you guys apparently plus we have hills. I typically take the interstate for about 3 miles total on my ride at WOT which is an indicated 70-72 mph on my 2011S. Then I ride up a 2 mile-long hill at 60 mph indicated to get home. I also accelerate fast whenever I can. I use up 5 of the 11 bars in 10 miles riding like that. It's a trip I take often, so I'm sure of the miles and the bars. I suppose I could eek out 22 miles or so riding like that.
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Yes but we are strictly talking about the 2012 Zero S ZF6 and ZF9.
Your 2011 model is completely different as far as battery, motor ect...
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Right, but I still get about half of what Zero says is the range, same as with the 2012...when you ride it like a sport bike instead of a moped that is.
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I have an '11 Zero DS converted to dirt, I suggest everyone explore those last two blinking bars! I did and its more like 3 bars.. Each blinker and one as empty.. I was still moving when I came down the road on no bars.. I went up and down the road until it ran out.. It took forever, but I got about 2 more miles per no bar and maybe 5 miles total with both blinkers.. IT is usable range!
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I agree with Spires. I get 2 blinking bars on the last 4 miles of freeway going to work on my '10 DS and it goes up to 5 solid bars in the city for 2 more miles. The funny part is only takes 2.25 kwh of 4 kwh total (its a VF4!) to recharge and that's measured at wall. Depending on the charger efficiency I'm probably using 2kwh or less for my 16 mile commute.
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I have an '11 Zero DS converted to dirt, I suggest everyone explore those last two blinking bars! I did and its more like 3 bars.. Each blinker and one as empty.. I was still moving when I came down the road on no bars.. I went up and down the road until it ran out.. It took forever, but I got about 2 more miles per no bar and maybe 5 miles total with both blinkers.. IT is usable range!
Does this mean "usable range" before we damage the battery ?
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Hi Tom,
It is unlikely you will damage the battery...the BMS will not let this happening (whatever you do with the 2+1 bars left).
We all trend (at least, I do) to get a little "anxious" when the 2 last bars start blinking, but the reality is that there is still around 20-25% capacity left -within the nominal battery capacity, because the 9Kw are not 100% usable/available-
A power meter (I believe Richard and other guys are using a brand called "Kill-A-Watt" -we have different ones in Europe-) will give a good idea of the total pack power comsumed as the bike onboard bar-system is not very accurate...
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So I am getting the opinion, as a new 5-week zero zf 9 s driver, it would be a good practice for me to do a "ride until it dies" test on the weekend - correct?
I will do this next week, this weekend I have to commute 400km and that's way too much for my zero :( Hopefully we will reach such distances the next 5-10 years on motorcycles too ...
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Yes, I'm afarid so ;D
There is nothing better than learning from experience...but try to get close home when reaching the 60 mi line ;)
That's about right...The timing it will take to get Lithium 3 regeration batteries available to users with 500 Wh/Kg.
Hopefully we are wrong with the timeframe and will get them sooner ;D
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400 km freeway range is a ways away.
Lightning claims 120 Wh/mile = 75 Wh/km on the freeway. They have good aero. 400 km needs at least 30 kWh to make in a single trip.
NTS has a prototype solution for tightly packaging cylindrical cells, shown (http://www.ntsworks.com/New_Battery.html) with Panasonic NCR 18650 250 Wh/kg in a 15 kWh pack. If we can double energy density (Wh/L) in 5-10 years then we should be able to do 30 Wh.
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400 km freeway range is a ways away.
Lightning claims 120 Wh/mile = 75 Wh/km on the freeway. They have good aero. 400 km needs at least 30 kWh to make in a single trip.
NTS has a prototype solution for tightly packaging cylindrical cells, shown (http://www.ntsworks.com/New_Battery.html) with Panasonic NCR 18650 250 Wh/kg in a 15 kWh pack. If we can double energy density (Wh/L) in 5-10 years then we should be able to do 30 Wh.
Thanks Protomech for making me a bit optimistic :)
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We will definitely double the density in 10 years -hopefully more- (if fuel prices continue to raise, and EV vehicles sales rise up also)
The offering you mentioned is a "temptation" :) as 15Kwh is already a very nice number for a bike...however is what I call a "risky package". Unlike what TESLA does (NTS mentioned TESLA as a reference, but did not mention that the TESLA battery pack has a very sophisticated water-cooled system...)this battery pack seems to have no cooling system.
Cylindrical cells have issues with uniform heat dissipation (during high rate discharge the core of the cells become hotter than the outside).The higher temperature makes the inner part of the battery to age faster, which results in the premature loss of capacity for the entire cell...They can argue that they are cheaper than pouch cells, but that's a different discussion...
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NTS claims the cells are thermally coupled to the front and back plates of the battery box, and that it will radiate the heat away. Would like to see verification, but it does have a large amount of surface area in the demonstration pack relative to the cells. Significant difference from a battery box that is large in three dimensions.
Heating is another issue entirely, but at least for a bike application the -20 to -40C temperatures which are problematic for typical lithium cells are unlikely to be an issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GahcFeTCZgc#t=98s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GahcFeTCZgc#t=98s)
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Nice info. Protomech.
Mmm...it seems Neal has done a very nice job with the packaging & assembling/interconnection -which is quite important with Lithium battery packs...(I frankly still have some questions on the cells temperature for high rate discharge in a full spectrum use -especially in Spain- ;D).
Hopefully, I'm wrong - I will not argue this business with Neal as he probably knows far more than me about Lithium Batteries ;)