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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: ColoPaul on October 06, 2012, 04:41:14 AM
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About 34F on the ride into work this morning. Can anyone out there beat that?
The Zero performed well, (although it started from a 50F garage). At work, the bike then sat out all day and chilled to maybe 39F or so.
Going home, when I turned the bike on, I got a blink code on the display :o
5 short, 1 long. ??? Clear as mud! It went away when I put the kickstand up. So I rode home, no problems.
Turns out the blink code is "kickstand sensor error". Bet it's a connector that has a temp sensitivity and goes away when it warms up.
I am curious if I would have noticeable reduced range at cold temps - but my work ride is only 8 miles one way. Couldn't tell a difference.
This is a picture of work when I got there this morning!
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Re. cold and range, after overnight charging on the XU when it's about 15*C (59*F) and above the first bar gets 5.1-5.5 KM When it's about 4*C (39*F) I've seen the first bar get 4.7 KM.
My coldest commute yielded about 80 Wh/mile round-trip (4*C morning, 14*C afternoon), then it warmed up again and the last commute was 69 Wh/mile (16*C morning and ~25*C afternoon); during July without cold temperature fluctuations it was consistently around 70 Wh/mile.
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First bar range, at least on my bike, is a little variable. It hasn't gotten super cold here, but I typically see 5-7 miles on it before it disappears.
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I guess that using the zero windshield + heated grip and seat would certainly help!.. it would only consume like 100Watts... wich is 100wh for an hour... to be more confortable.... that must be considered!
DOc
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with my bmw i normally commute to work on bike year-round, but i have to change from 20W50 to 10W40 oil in the winter months. it typically gets down near 0F here, and is often 20F or less. the zero manual says not to operate the bike at 20F or lower, and that the computer will shut the bike off at those temps. so, i guess it'll be back to the R1150 for the dead of winter, with the zero cozy in the garage...
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Rode my 2011 S in 35F last winter. I won't ride below freezing because I don't trust the roads here to not have ice patches. The bike was stored in an unheated garage. Took off at 35F and rode with no problems. Didn't ride far so no idea of the range issus.
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I don't relish the thought of not riding my Zero. Does the 20F include windchill? Hmm. Winter is coming...
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Ride my bike every work day to the train station here in the NYC area. I have ridden in temperatures below 15F excluding windchill on occasion. As long as there is now snow on the road I am on the bike. Luckily my ride is short and I am well bundled in a jacket and ski gloves. I am looking forward to the windshield I bought this year to help with the windchill this winter.
Regarding the range, my rides are short and I leave the bike plugged in overnight so it isn't a practical issue although for sure the range is diminished based on how quickly the bars drop in the cold.
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Ride my bike every work day to the train station here in the NYC area. I have ridden in temperatures below 15F excluding windchill on occasion. As long as there is now snow on the road I am on the bike. Luckily my ride is short and I am well bundled in a jacket and ski gloves. I am looking forward to the windshield I bought this year to help with the windchill this winter.
Regarding the range, my rides are short and I leave the bike plugged in overnight so it isn't a practical issue although for sure the range is diminished based on how quickly the bars drop in the cold.
Like humans, batteries function best at room temperature, and any deviation towards hot and cold changes the performance and/or longevity. Operating a battery at elevated temperatures momentarily improves performance by lowering the internal resistance and speeding up the chemical metabolism, but such a condition shortens service life if allowed to continue for a long period of time. Some manufacturers of lead acid batteries make use of the improved performance at warmer temperatures and specify the batteries at a toasty 27°C (80°F).
Cold temperature increases the internal resistance and diminishes the capacity. Batteries that would provide 100 percent capacity at 27°C (80°F) will typically deliver only 50 percent at –18°C (0°F). The capacity decrease is linear with temperature.
Li-ion also performs better at high temperatures than at low ones. Heat lowers the internal resistance but this stresses the battery.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures)
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I commuted this morning at 25F. That' about my limit. Funny, it's supposed to be 77F by this afternoon for my ride home. :D That's Colorado.
I noticed a definite lack of power! I'll try to be quantitative:
There is a short hill that if I'm going 60 at the start of; normally if I go WOT I can be at 70 by the time I get to the top. This morning I went WOT and by the top I was only going 63. I'd guess that top speed on a flat may have been ~72 or so.
Also, by the end of my short (8 mile) commute; I could tell that the power was returning to normal. I guess the batteries were self-heating enough due to usage to overcome the cold losses?
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ZF6 battery may be power-limited at cold temperatures. Motor is ~22 kW, battery is 5.3 kWh, it's rated for 5C continuous but that's at room temperature. At low temperatures you may get 3C or less out of it (waving hands here) .. which would limit you to around 15 kW / 20 hp.
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Ride my bike every work day to the train station here in the NYC area. I have ridden in temperatures below 15F excluding windchill on occasion. As long as there is now snow on the road I am on the bike. Luckily my ride is short and I am well bundled in a jacket and ski gloves. I am looking forward to the windshield I bought this year to help with the windchill this winter.
Regarding the range, my rides are short and I leave the bike plugged in overnight so it isn't a practical issue although for sure the range is diminished based on how quickly the bars drop in the cold.
I thought the motors were supposed to cut out at below 20 degrees farenheit. How did you get away with riding at 15 degrees, Cirrus Pete?
I was wondering if you start in a 50 degree garage and go out into 15 degree weather, will the heat generated by riding the bike be enough to keep the motor and batteries above 20 degrees and running. Not sure whether this would work at freeway speeds, when the air flow will carry off a lot of motor heat. Could you block up the motor ventilation like you sometimes see diesel trucks do?
--Karl
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Temperature limitation is almost certainly a battery limitation, not a motor limitation.
Motor will definitely keep itself heated, probably at least 30-50C above ambient.
Battery will heat itself somewhat, during the summer I found that the battery stayed about 10C above ambient both when in operation and when left in the sun. During the winter (in NA), heating from the sun may be less (and particularly if you ride home late at night when the sun has dipped below the horizon) .. so I would not count on this.
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[/quote]
I thought the motors were supposed to cut out at below 20 degrees farenheit. How did you get away with riding at 15 degrees, Cirrus Pete?
I was wondering if you start in a 50 degree garage and go out into 15 degree weather, will the heat generated by riding the bike be enough to keep the motor and batteries above 20 degrees and running. Not sure whether this would work at freeway speeds, when the air flow will carry off a lot of motor heat. Could you block up the motor ventilation like you sometimes see diesel trucks do?
--Karl
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Karl,
I dunno. All I can say is that I have never had the motor cut out due to low temp issues. only degradation of battery/range. (in fact, until you posted it, i wasn't even aware of that limitation. Hopefully I won't have a dead cat in a box now!) I have had the ingnition key hole freeze when some moisture got in it and then froze as the day got colder. Certainly not a "zero" specific issue but itreally sucked when I got home that night in freezing weather and couldn't get the key in the bike to ride home. Now during the winter I keep a can of lock antifreeze spray in my saddlebag!
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So, is this a challenge? I hope to ride at least a bit this winter, but it gets pretty cold on my long commutes even at 5*C (of course it's usually windy here at the same time). I find that Zero's windscreen is not sufficient for me and I'm considering finding something else. Any recommendations? I'll also have to get out my snowmobile helmet :) I wonder how long the bike could last at -40...
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I would strongly encourage you to be cautious while testing the lower operational limit - make sure you have a backup plan for transportation if the bike shuts down (or more likely, refuses to start up after a cold soak) while you are exposed to the environment. I don't know what the freezing point for the electrolyte in the batteries is, but you obviously want to avoid that as well. (EIG says -30C / -22 F is the minimum storage temperature).
All that said.. I'd love to read what you find out.
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I would strongly encourage you to be cautious while testing the lower operational limit - make sure you have a backup plan for transportation if the bike shuts down (or more likely, refuses to start up after a cold soak) while you are exposed to the environment. I don't know what the freezing point for the electrolyte in the batteries is, but you obviously want to avoid that as well. (EIG says -30C / -22 F is the minimum storage temperature).
All that said.. I'd love to read what you find out.
I work at home over the winter, so it would just be around the neighbourhood. Definitely not into being stranded on a gravel road in winter!
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The batteries and electrics will heat up as you use them so if you set off from a warm garage and park up back in a warm garage it should be fine. Unless the bikes has an external temp sensor, which I doubt.
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Hey, what do you all do for neck-warming when riding in cold temps?
I used to put on a balaclava, but it made my helmet too small.
I've been using a plain old scarf, which has been surprisingly effective.
Although I'm not getting many cool rider fashion points, I'm sure.
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Hey, what do you all do for neck-warming when riding in cold temps?
I used to put on a balaclava, but it made my helmet too small.
I've been using a plain old scarf, which has been surprisingly effective.
Although I'm not getting many cool rider fashion points, I'm sure.
Something like this?
http://www.collarsanddickiesbysarah.com/ThermoDickies.html (http://www.collarsanddickiesbysarah.com/ThermoDickies.html)
::)
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It's not perfect but I ordered it for 4€ and it works good for me.
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This is what I use:
http://www.cyclegear.com/eng/product/neck_guard/web1000778 (http://www.cyclegear.com/eng/product/neck_guard/web1000778)
It's kind of a pain in the ass to put on, and it's a little too short in the back for my jacket, the end often will slip out.. but it works very well.
36 degrees when I rode in this morning. Testing brush guards that deflect wind - installed only the left guard, had to rezip the grip control cable. Wore my summer gloves, left hand was cool but fine when I got in (~13 miles ~25 minutes), right hand was pretty damn cold.
I need to figure out how to install the right guard. I may move the mirror / brake grip mount down the bar and install the guard clip right beside the control pod.
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I wear a buff gator:
http://www.buffwear.com/buff-headwear/cyclone-buff (http://www.buffwear.com/buff-headwear/cyclone-buff)
Had to leave my bike at the station last night because we got ~5inches of snow in a Nor'easter!
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I've been riding in 30-50 degree weather lately and noticed that the range is not significantly affected until temps fall into the 30's. The range I've calculated (for mixed 50/50 highway/city driving) is usually around 75mi at temps above 40 degrees, but in the 30's in the same driving conditions, predicted range is closer to 65mi.
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About 34F on the ride into work this morning.
when I turned the bike on, I got a blink code on the display :o
5 short, 1 long. ??? Clear as mud! It went away when I put the kickstand up. So I rode home, no problems.
Turns out the blink code is "kickstand sensor error". Bet it's a connector that has a temp sensitivity and goes away when it warms up.
I had trouble starting my bike this evening when I got home on the train - a heavy dew had fallen and the temp had dropped to about 5C. Took several attempts to get it started. And the regen braking was very jerky for the short ride home. What gives?
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I had trouble starting my bike this evening when I got home on the train - a heavy dew had fallen and the temp had dropped to about 5C. Took several attempts to get it started. And the regen braking was very jerky for the short ride home. What gives?
When you say "several attempts to get it started", I assume you mean you turned it on, got lights etc, but it wouldn't respond to the throttle? And after several power cycles it decided to go? Any blink codes?
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Recently I have been having a minor problem with my bike not responding to the throttle upon startup in the morning. I keep my bike garaged and the temperatures in the morning have been above 50 degrees F. This happens about one in 10 times when starting up and happens in both Eco and Sport mode. It only seems to happen when the battery is fully charged. Rebooting once always gets me going again. It doesn't really bother me that much, but I hope it doesn't get any worse. I can't find any pattern to this minor glitch, other than it does it when fully charged.
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Recently I have been having a minor problem with my bike not responding to the throttle upon startup in the morning. I keep my bike garaged and the temperatures in the morning have been above 50 degrees F. This happens about one in 10 times when starting up and happens in both Eco and Sport mode. It only seems to happen when the battery is fully charged. Rebooting once always gets me going again.
I've noticed that too, same exact symptoms. Started about a month ago. It's been colder here for sure, but a month ago is also about when I got the "glitch" sevcon controller software fix. I've been trying to correlate it with an activity - so far it's only happened when I turn the bike on, then manually push it backwards about 10 ft out of the shed, then try to go. So far if I back it out, then turn it on, it's OK. The theory is the backwards movement from the encoder is freaking out the controller??
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As much as I know it is an effect of the new Software.
The SW has a different pre-charge algorithm that need more time.
Unfortunately it produce sometimes a pre-charge fault and you need to turn the key off and on again. :'(
But better as a glitch, I still have the old SW and two days ago I started to overtake a Truck and my bike stopped :o (it was the first time I got the glitch)
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Recently I have been having a minor problem with my bike not responding to the throttle upon startup in the morning. I keep my bike garaged and the temperatures in the morning have been above 50 degrees F. This happens about one in 10 times when starting up and happens in both Eco and Sport mode. It only seems to happen when the battery is fully charged. Rebooting once always gets me going again.
I've noticed that too, same exact symptoms. Started about a month ago. It's been colder here for sure, but a month ago is also about when I got the "glitch" sevcon controller software fix. I've been trying to correlate it with an activity - so far it's only happened when I turn the bike on, then manually push it backwards about 10 ft out of the shed, then try to go. So far if I back it out, then turn it on, it's OK. The theory is the backwards movement from the encoder is freaking out the controller??
My "glitch" has nothing to do with rolling the bike backwards. When I leave my garage, I roll my bike forward, place it on the side stand, turn the key on without moving it, then I wait for the computer to boot up and let the dials and lights come to a rest, then I turn the kill switch on, mount the bike and turn the throttle. Most of the time the bike rolls forward, but sometimes it doesn't and has to be restarted again. Then it always starts up and I have no other problems for the rest of the day. No big deal, but it is kind of strange. My bike has had all of the updates and recalls performed. I might add that this first happened the day after the factory returned my bike after they fixed the encoder problem.
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OK, rode into work today at 15F. :o But I cheated - the bike was stored all night in a 50F workshop! ;D
Supposed to warm up to 62F today (that's Colorado, wide daily temp swings).
Interesting observation: Yesterday I rode into work taking the charge from 50% down to 25%; temp was ~32F; bike temp was ~40F. As usual, I could tell there was reduced power (cold combined with low charge) - top speed was ~60mph, low but reasonable.
At work, I plugged in, and it was supposed to warm up to 45F on the ride home. Two things happened, first we got clouds and it never warmed up at all (still 32F) and second, the bike didn't charge. So riding home: temp was ~32F, bike temp was ~32F, taking the charge from 25% down to 0%. And the top speed was 45mph (if I was in a tuck). Yikes, don't want to do that again - too much traffic wanting to move at 55 mph. By the time I made it home, top speed was maybe 35 mph. Plugged in, charge to full (per the kill-o-watt) was 5.35 kWh; so it appears the battery wasn't overly low. Interesting how much performance degradation cold and low charge results in.
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Interesting. The User Manual states the BMS will disable charging below 20 degrees F - I wonder if your bike sensor is poorly calibrated.
I've ridden in a bit around 30 degrees ambient, but the bike was probably warmer than that. ZF9 owners will probably see less power degradation in the cold because we max out around 2.5C vs 3.8C discharge .. assuming it's not a motor or motor controller cutout (both probably run better in the cold, to a point)
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Interesting. The User Manual states the BMS will disable charging below 20 degrees F - I wonder if your bike sensor is poorly calibrated.
Upon discovering the bike had not charged all day, I plugged it back into the work outlet - and observed still no charging (looking at the BMS LED indicator). I unplugged and replugged several times - still no charging.
The work outlet is a GFCI. So I pressed the 'test' button and the 'reset' button popped out (usually this indicates it was not tripped). I pushed the reset button back in, plugged the bike in, and to my surprise it started to charge.
I'm leaning towards the GFCI outlet being tripped or not functioning properly, but I can't be sure, maybe it was temp related.
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The wife and I recently returned from an extended visit to Southern, CA where the temperature ranged from the 60s, cold by the locals' reckoning, to more seasonal 80s.
Trip included a stop at Hollywood Electric where I took a rocketized 2012 ZF9 on a warm albeit drizzly test ride.
Pulling in the driveway with the wife this evening, she read the outside temp off the display: "Twenty four degrees! I need a sauna at the gym!"
I retorted in unintentional rhyme, "I need to take the Zero for a spin."
After pulling on layers of long underwear, flannel lined jeans, and everything else I could fit under my gear, I stuffed foot warmers into my boots, donned my warmest ski gloves and took off into the night.
The bike was stored in an unheated garage. The battery was no doubt at 24 degrees, too, when I took off. I had not ridden my 2012 ZF9 for nearly a month due to travel. I was hopefully optimistic about reliability but made a contingency plan just in case: call my wife to get her to pick me up on the way back from the gym.
Long story short, the bike operated exactly as on a warm summer day. The only difference is the range was cut approximately in two; a bar fell at 6 miles, another at 11, and another at 16 just before I rode back into my garage. On a warm day I regularly take a 32 mile trip on three bars.
But aside from the expected cut in range from the slower chemical reaction rates in the box below me -- aren't batteries supposed to keep longer in the freezer? -- I could not tell the difference.
Well, except for a woman at a red light who looked at me, riding up next to her out of the frigid night swathed in black gear and glowing LED white, like she'd discovered her own, personal space alien.
Needless to say, there were no other motorcycles on the road, electric or otherwise.
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Cells will self-discharge more slowly in the freezer, but the voltage drops and the internal resistance goes up.
It's been nice here recently.. 60-70 degrees many days. Kinda crazy for December.
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Needless to say, there were no other motorcycles on the road, electric or otherwise.
why is that needless to say? i plan on getting out my bmw again when the temps go below 25 (just to be safe and not get stranded by a computer). only frozen precipitation keeps my bikes in the garage.
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Needless to say, there were no other motorcycles on the road, electric or otherwise.
why is that needless to say? i plan on getting out my bmw again when the temps go below 25 (just to be safe and not get stranded by a computer). only frozen precipitation keeps my bikes in the garage.
Not that I'd ever want to get into a daring contest with this crew but I rarely see riders out after dark and never late at night in winter. Ever.
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During the summer here there are typically 6-10 bikes parked out in front of my building.
Today was a relatively nice day (morning temps of 55) .. there are 3 bikes including mine parked out front. Counting the two besides mine, I have seen 3 other bikes parked there this week.
Motorcycles in the US are largely luxury goods, and used accordingly. (I rode my gas bike in to work about once a week too, not exempting myself here : )
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I took a short ride this afternoon around the block, carefully since I don't have winter tires. LOTS of snow. It was about -13 C (8.6F) with a windchill of -23 (-9.4F). It did fine, but of course I do keep it in a garage, here! I probably should have worn a helmet, but I'm a crazy canuck and it wasn't THAT cold...
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I took a short ride this afternoon around the block, carefully since I don't have winter tires. LOTS of snow. It was about -13 C (8.6F) with a windchill of -23 (-9.4F). It did fine, but of course I do keep it in a garage, here! I probably should have worn a helmet, but I'm a crazy canuck and it wasn't THAT cold...
This is exactly what I mean about not daring this crew. 9 degrees F without a helmet?
Bwah ha ha ha ha!
As we say in the USA, f*** yeh!
So far I think my 24 degrees F battery on a 10 mile 24 degree F ride is still the coldest from a battery test POV on this thread. Let's beat it!
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@ZeroSinMA - so what would you say is the minimum distance I need to travel? And/or minimum speed? I am SO tempted to get winter tires on my DS - in Manitoba I can go studded if I want - never had any, though; on a car they're not worth it but maybe on a bike it is...
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@ZeroSinMA - so what would you say is the minimum distance I need to travel? And/or minimum speed? I am SO tempted to get winter tires on my DS - in Manitoba I can go studded if I want - never had any, though; on a car they're not worth it but maybe on a bike it is...
I'm going to try for 20/20, 20 miles at 20F and starting with the battery also at 20F. That should tell us quite a bit about the impact of low temps on range and performance.
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(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/28008_362607343835076_1355370067_n.jpg)
www.facebook.com/lifeoffthegrid (http://www.facebook.com/lifeoffthegrid)
Not sure of the temperature, but the ice was on the roads by sunset and it got colder for the next 6 hours by the minute it seemed.
The battery voltage/energy profile takes a shift in very cold temperatures. The bike will indicate you have less range remaining than you do. But you are probably ready to park it and warm up anyway.
Also there are safety measures in place to not allow charging the batteries below freezing, but if you know the temperature is that low outside, don't even try as some very bad things could happen. Not really until a couple degrees below freezing, and I think the safety cutoff is set right at freezing, so a little buffer. Best to push the bike in a garage or lobby or anywhere to warm it up first.
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If you ask me, this looks even colder. :o
And I also liked this photo showing a good use of a highway rest stop.
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Also there are safety measures in place to not allow charging the batteries below freezing, but if you know the temperature is that low outside, don't even try as some very bad things could happen. Not really until a couple degrees below freezing, and I think the safety cutoff is set right at freezing, so a little buffer. Best to push the bike in a garage or lobby or anywhere to warm it up first.
Believe the owner's manual states that the BMS will disable charging below 20F.
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I am bummed out! Because I'm living at the beach, in Southern California, I can't get into this competition. :'(
Trikester
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Also there are safety measures in place to not allow charging the batteries below freezing, but if you know the temperature is that low outside, don't even try as some very bad things could happen. Not really until a couple degrees below freezing, and I think the safety cutoff is set right at freezing, so a little buffer. Best to push the bike in a garage or lobby or anywhere to warm it up first.
Believe the owner's manual states that the BMS will disable charging below 20F.
You make me scared I tend to connect my bike always to the grid (all winter long) and my garage is not much different to the outside.
I never wasted a thought it could be dangerous. Do I really need to disconnect it at low temperature?
I am a bit worried now.
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Believe the owner's manual states that the BMS will disable charging below 20F
That's what my manual says -- at p. 4-8
Action
: if the BMS senses that the power pack is too hot, above 71C (160 F) or too cold, below -7C (20F), it sends a signal to disable the motor controller and the motorcycle will not run until the temperature returns to an acceptable level. The charger will also be disabled in this condition.
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From the 2012 owner's manual:
It is required that you leave the motorcycle on the charger if you expect it to sit in storage or unused for over 7 days. The power pack must be charged within 24 hours if fully discharged, and charged within 60 days if stored fully charged. Zero recommends you plug in your Zero motorcycle after 7 days, even if fully charged. Please leave your Zero motorcycle plugged in whenever possible.
High or Low Temperature
Action: If the BMS senses that the power pack is too hot, above 71°C (160°F), or too cold, below -7°C (20°F), it sends a signal to disable the motor controller and the motorcycle will not run until the temperature returns to an acceptable level. The charger will also be disabled in this condition.
Self discharge + BMS battery drain should be very low. 7.9 kWh / 60 days = 5W discharge .. pretty small.
I don't know at what temperature the electrolyte in the battery would freeze - might be good to contact Zero if it's dropping much below.
Charging it for 1 hour per week should be enough to keep it more or less at a stationary state of charge. If you get one warm day per week, then you could probably sit the bike out in the sun to warm up and then charge.
Alternatively, you could bring it inside to charge periodically, or just store it inside period. That's probably safest for the bike batteries if it drops well below 20F outside.. though perhaps not safest for your domestic relationships : )
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Rode in to work, temp around 40. 12 miles @ 40-60 mph.
Left in the evening, rode to a friend's house, temp around 35. 16 miles @ 40-50 mph.
Just lost the fifth bar when I arrived. 6 bars remaining, figured I had about 35 miles left in the pack. No problem, 20 miles to go home.. no need to charge (even though we were going to watch about 4 hours of Rome, heh).
Left around 11, temp around 30. Switched on the headlight, finished gearing up, noticed the sixth bar had disappeared. Sometimes I see this after the temperature drops significantly when the bike has been sitting. No problem.. until a mile later the seventh bar disappears, then the eighth, then all bars disappear and the fuel gauge starts to flash.
I debated whether to pull over at a restaurant to charge. I had just made this trip last week in slightly higher temperatures (40-45 degrees) using about 70% of the pack, so I knew the battery wasn't out of charge.. just figured the voltage was low enough that the energy gauge gave up on giving a range estimate. As long as the battery stayed above the lower voltage cutoff, the bike would keep rolling..
Which it did. For all 20 miles.. but I kept to 35 mph as much as possible.
Rather nerve-wracking.. but take it as another data point.
I'm going to do some test riding this weekend when it's warmer, see if the energy gauge exhibits similar irregularities then.
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After what Terry rode through to get to the Bay Area, I thought that he would have seen some degradation in his battery pack or performance. But when he rode up at the Zero factory, he said that his battery pack was working just as well as it did when new, even though he has more miles and his bike has likely been abused it more than anyone else has done to their Zero. I would say that is a pretty good testimonial for Zero's battery pack - no matter what the LCD "fuel" gauge says. :)
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I wonder if he got his weak cell replaced at Zero HQ?
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If you ride a lot the battery will keep some heat due to the discharge and charge cycles. This will help the battery to keep its capacity in cold weather.
I ride twice a day to empty tank and have little degradation of range. But after its parked for a few days it takes some rides to "warm up" again.
My expirience is with another chemistry though (NiMh) so maybe it applies less to Li
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Mildly interesting observation:
It's been very cold the last 8 days here, average daily temperatures of around 12F. I haven't been riding at all.
The ol' zero has been sitting in the (relatively warm) garage; but I noticed yesterday I was getting a blink code on the BMS:
1 red, and 1 green. A quick glance at the manual yielded: "Too Hot. Let the power pack cool down". ??? The thermometer in the garage was at 33F; the battery box was ice cold.
I turned on the garage heater, and let the temp come up to 50F. The blink code was gone and now it was charging.
Went back to the manual, and saw the "Too Hot" blink code is under the heading "Temperature Disable", and that there is no "Too Cold" blink code, so too cold and too hot must share the same code.
I know the garage temp was above 32F cause there was some water in there that wasn't frozen.
Apparently, for my bike, around 32F is the cold charge limit; although the manual references 20F.
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I feel for you guys in the cold temps. I went mountain biking today (see photo) in the Anza-Borrego Desert State park and tomorrow I'll take the 2012 DS out for a dirt ride. The temp today was 60 degrees and no wind. It's supposed to be warmer tomorrow.
Trikester
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I feel for you guys in the cold temps. I went mountain biking today (see photo) in the Anza-Borrego Desert State park and tomorrow I'll take the 2012 DS out for a dirt ride. The temp today was 60 degrees and no wind. It's supposed to be warmer tomorrow.
Trikester
i'll send you a picture from the mountains in August where it'll be in the 70's-80's, then you send me a pic of your thermometer...? for now, i'm going skiing :)
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Ah, but I also have a mountain cabin located at 7,000 feet. About the same August temps as you said. There are good Forest Service fire-roads to ride up there in the summer. In the winter, if I skied, I could ski up there, but since I don't ski I'd rather be down in the desert.
Trikester
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Just got back from a 32 mile round trip to a meeting with a client. Left from a 45 degree garage, 24 degrees outside. Parked the bike outside for three hours ( temperature around 30 degrees) then rode back.
Really did not notice much effect of the cold on range or the battery indicators. I used three bars (had eight left) when I reached my destination. Still had eight bars left when I turned the bike on three hours later. Used three bars to get home, leaving five bars on the bike.
The trip was half freeway and half back roads, average speed around 40 mph, top speed not more than 55 or 60 (didn't want to push the range).
My bike is a S ZF6, so using six bars to go 32 miles in a mix of freeway and suburban driving is better than the advertised range of 45 miles for mixed commuting.
One thought - another factor that would decrease range in cold weather would be the increase density of cold air. This has to increase wind resistance at high speeds.
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I found some info about it on cycling and increasing the air temp by 5C in the velodrome at the London olympics reduced times by 1.4s in the 4km time trial (about 4m 20s) A difference of roughly 0.6%. So I suspect that doing up the zip higher on your jacket because of the cold would have more aerodynamic effect on range than the cold air itself.
(http://wiredchop.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/drag-graph.jpg)
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I know it's not the coldest, but I took a ride in 28 degree weather last week. Was late for the meeting so I was hitting high speeds on the highway, while ducking under my windscreen for a little cover. Between the cold and the merciless use of the throttle, projected range was about 60mi, but that wasn't a concern since my ride was about 40 miles total. ;D
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I feel for you guys in the cold temps. I went mountain biking today (see photo) in the Anza-Borrego Desert State park and tomorrow I'll take the 2012 DS out for a dirt ride. The temp today was 60 degrees and no wind. It's supposed to be warmer tomorrow.
Trikester
Hey, nice Mtn bike Trikester. Those are some fat tires.
2 degrees here in Idaho this morning.
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It is cold here in the the metro NY area this week. I plugged my bike in last night and this morning it was clear that it had not charged, so I guess the temp regulator was doing its job...
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Hey, nice Mtn bike Trikester. Those are some fat tires.
The Fatback bikes are made in Alaska for snow riding. I find that it is the perfect bicycle for the sandy desert washes. They build each frame to the person's body measurements so I was able to ask them for a slacker head tube angle to give me more trail for sand riding. They went to the maximum they could do, which was 67*. I can roll off of hard pack into soft sand without a single twitch from the front wheel.
I got all the lightest parts to end up with a 24 pound bike!
Trikester
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It is cold here in the the metro NY area this week. I plugged my bike in last night and this morning it was clear that it had not charged, so I guess the temp regulator was doing its job...
It must have been warmer by a few important degrees here in NC. It got down to 18, but I was charged up in the morning. It would probably have been finished charging by the time it got below 20. All that meant was that I had no excuse not to ride in to work when it was about 19.
On a related note, the ignition switch was so stiff from the cold that I couldn't turn it with the key. I had to get out a hair drier to warm it for a couple of minutes, but then everything worked fine.
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It's 14 degrees here and my bike didn't charge after returning home from my commute. Looks like it tried to, but then decided to wait until the temperature rises. Should get up to 24 tomorrow, and my commute is short so it's no problem. Good to know their temperature sensors work.
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It's 14 degrees here and my bike didn't charge after returning home from my commute. Looks like it tried to, but then decided to wait until the temperature rises. Should get up to 24 tomorrow, and my commute is short so it's no problem. Good to know their temperature sensors work.
Wow -- I am impressed that you rode yesterday, Ben. I am going to wait until AM temps are at least 20. I don't want to take a chance on the bike cutting out in the middle of the highway or something.
So you rode in the single digits yesterday morning?
--Karl
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It's 14 degrees here and my bike didn't charge after returning home from my commute. Looks like it tried to, but then decided to wait until the temperature rises. Should get up to 24 tomorrow, and my commute is short so it's no problem. Good to know their temperature sensors work.
Rode my bike to the station this morning 9deg!!! Yesterday and today the bike has riding in "limp" mode I think as when I open the throttle the bike refuses to go above 25mph and generates some sort of mechanical resistance that limits the motor. I am showing half full on bars though. Interesting.
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Yesterday and today the bike has riding in "limp" mode I think as when I open the throttle the bike refuses to go above 25mph and generates some sort of mechanical resistance that limits the motor. I am showing half full on bars though. Interesting.
Glad I left the bike home. "Limp mode" would not be pretty on I287 and the TZ Bridge.
-Karl
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I brought my bike into my mudroom last night to charge as the unheated garage just wasn't going to cut it. Bike much happier this morning, no limp mode down to the station.
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I have this feeling that Zero, at their relatively warm location in Scotts Valley, CA, never really figured that there would be anyone riding and charging the batteries of their motorcycles in single-digit temperatures. :o I know that when the temperature drops below freezing, I stay off two wheels and just wait until it warms up a bit. ;)
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kcoplan, the temperature when I rode was in the upper 20's, about 28, I think. Also, my commute to work is about a mile, so there isn't much risk for me. However, as much as I love riding, I tend to drive my gas guzzling Honda Fit when temps are below freezing overnight. Mainly as a safety issue in case there is ice.
On another note I just drove home, with my Zero in tow, from a conference for NJ Environmental Educators and parked across the street. I had some fun spinning the tires in the freshly fallen snow and managed to avoid being freshly fallen myself!
Hope the weather gives us some better riding days again soon!
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I used to ride all winter but I had a few close calls on ice. It is just to hard to dodge the ice and I would rather avoid breaking bike and bones these days. I now cutoff riding at less than 38 degrees F to avoid ice in the shady spots of the canyon.
Having said that, everyone should ride in a raging snowstorm at least once.
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when i moved to colorado from new jersey, i was a daily rider 365. i got stuck (quite literally) in snowpack four times before i put that behavior to an end. now i pay attention to the temp and precipitation forecast and ride accordingly.
yes, everyone really should experience standing on icy pegs on a big gold wing with 1/2 inch of snow and ice on the windshield, with both wheels wandering about, on the freeway going through the mountains. or, maybe not. but it honestly was kind of fun. i even got more funny stares from passers by than i do with the zero...
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I tell my coworkers that I'll take the car if ice is expected. So far we've been lucky - there's been one day where we had ice in the morning, but they opened our work site late and it was gone by that time.
I also got some funny looks riding back a week ago or so when it was snowing pretty heavily.. had to brush two inches of snow from the bike to leave. The parking lot was slick to walk on, but the bike had no problems with grip.
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All this reading about Terry's ride across the US made me want to go for a joyride. So, despite 29 degree temps, I hit the road for the hills of western Jersey.
Had a great 60 mile ride, but couldn't feel my feet or face for the last 10 miles. Got a solid 7.1 miles per bar on the indicator.
Also managed to find a road that was paved in parts and unpaved in other parts. Had a blast going up and down the dirt sections on my Zero S, and learned a thing or two about controlled skidding. The view was tremendous, and I saw some people ice fishing on a lake! Gotta get a couple more pieces of gear so I can take that ride again soon. Found some great twisty backcountry roads to carve up.
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Took my first "cold ride" this morning. 40mph in 32F = 16F... not cool ;) We don't go outside much in Alabama when it's that cold :-P
Can't say I noticed any performance or range issues, though I was not actively looking for either. The XU is a short range bike, so my 7 miles to work used half a charge as usual.
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We do when we have to get to work : P
Also, hi ash. I think I've been talking with you recently?
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So here's my recent experience with cold temperatures in an EV. Unfortunately not with my Zero, as the roads are WAY too icy and snowpacked to take it out. Last month I received my Tesla Model S, and it is sweet. It arrived in the middle of a cold snap, and in Manitoba that means COLD. The lowest temperatures I drove it in were -32*C with a (standing) windchill of -43*. Everything worked well, even after standing outside for several hours in an exposed parking lot. The car will turn off regen braking if it is too cold, because it can't charge up the battery below freezing, but discharge is fine. I've had no trouble with electronics. Range obviously decreases, although part of it is because the Tesla has a thermal management system that heats up the battery pack (so that it can be recharged, and regen kicks back on after driving for about 10 minutes in -30*).
I'm GUESSING that in extreme conditions the Zero should drive alright, with seriously reduced range, but don't expect to charge outside a garage. I just don't have the gear right now to drive in our crazy cold (I need to borrow my dad's snowmobile helmet & suit, and get some serious winter tires on, maybe chains). Maybe next winter! Do we know if Zero has done any cold-weather testing (and not just Californian cold)?
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I think it hit 40 degrees F in Scotts Valley this morning. :o
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just to add info to the database.
been mostly storing my 12ds9 in the attached garage where it's about 10F above ambient. we had an inversion in our valley which held single-digit daily temps for several weeks this winter. on a coupola very cold days i noticed the flashing pattern in the com window was different, and i assumed thanks to this forum that it was likely too cold to properly charge/maintain the battery. anyway, the manual said leave the bike plugged in when not in use so i did. unplugged it finally recently a coupola days in a row and it just fired up and ran like it always does. no noticeable performance difference. it did consume a bit more energy according to the kill-a-watt on recharging after riding in 25-30F and storing the bike outside in those temps for 9h. how much i'm not sure due to inconsistent monitoring on my part. anyway, i'm happy :)
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After a few weeks of miserable weather, I finally got to ride my Zero S in 30-40 degree weather but the sun was shining! She ran like a champ and I went a little more than 55 miles, mostly on highways and returned home with one bar remaining. Based on past experience, temperature and my throttle preferences (ie-bat out of hell) this is what I estimated at the beginning of the day.
Motorcycle had been plugged in without being used for about 3 weeks and ran like a beauty as soon as I turned her on. Man I love this bike!
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Here is someone who took a cold ride on his new Empulse R. It looks to me like the Empulse's batteries don't like to be cold:
http://freepz.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/i-hate-cold-weather-and-so-does-the-empulse/ (http://freepz.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/i-hate-cold-weather-and-so-does-the-empulse/)
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If you want good cold weather batteries than you can always go for NiMH...
Li just does not like cold weather.
That is why I will only trade in my NiMH bike for a Li bike which has battery heaters.
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I'm guessing it would be impractical to have winter batteries and summer batteries.
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This is my 3rd cold weather test ride. All three similar results.
Storage temp: 40F
Riding air temp: 34F
Distance: 30mi
Ave. speed: 35MPH
Bars used: 4
Virtually the same as in warm weather.
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This was a cold ride. There were people riding snowmobiles right next to this photo.
I made a 67 mile loop on this ride and had one bar left when I got back to base.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/nneiwert/ZeroDS/PilotPeakRide/file.jpg)
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Well, I'm impressed. ;D
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What was your average speed?
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45-60 MPH on the loop. Average probably somewhere between 50-55 MPH.
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45-60 MPH on the loop. Average probably somewhere between 50-55 MPH.
How do you keep your hands and feet warm for that long? :o
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You don't ! It is cold. I do have handguards that decrease the wind and i wear silk glove liners but it is just cold after a while.
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Speaking about riding in the cold, I notice that several comments on the Brammo Owners board seem to be reporting that the Empulse doesn't like the cold. The bike's performance apparently starts degrading around at around 50 degrees and really starts to go downhill as temperatures approach freezing. Some owners report substantially reduced "mileage" and performance, charging problems (including no charging at all), and other issues when it gets cold. Apparently some of these problems are related to Brammo connecting the batteries to the aluminum frame and using the battery frame and chassis frame to help cool them. That works great when it is hot, but appears to overdo it as the temperatures drop. The battery pack does contain electric heaters, but that does nothing for the model's range and I get the impression that the heaters get overwhelmed as the temperature drops to digits that wouldn't affect the Zero nearly as much.
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Kinda surprising given that they're in Oregon. On the other hand, they can now sell a $200 battery blanket to "improve cold-weather performance" :)
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for serious cold weather riding, nothing beats a combo of electric gloves, socks, vest and chaps. i have ridden over eight hours in sub-30F temps with such a combo on a goldwing. i don't think such extremes apply to the zero because of it's range and battery concerns, but i did install grip heaters on my ds and they sure make cold commutes a lot more pleasant.
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for serious cold weather riding, nothing beats a combo of electric gloves, socks, vest and chaps. i have ridden over eight hours in sub-30F temps with such a combo on a goldwing. i don't think such extremes apply to the zero because of it's range and battery concerns, but i did install grip heaters on my ds and they sure make cold commutes a lot more pleasant.
What kind of grip heaters did you use and how do you wire them in?
I have been thinking of adding grip heaters... Zero has them as an option but then they don't and they seem really expensive.
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for serious cold weather riding, nothing beats a combo of electric gloves, socks, vest and chaps. i have ridden over eight hours in sub-30F temps with such a combo on a goldwing. i don't think such extremes apply to the zero because of it's range and battery concerns, but i did install grip heaters on my ds and they sure make cold commutes a lot more pleasant.
What kind of grip heaters did you use and how do you wire them in?
I have been thinking of adding grip heaters... Zero has them as an option but then they don't and they seem really expensive.
I find that using an electrical outlet and heated gloves or glove liners is cheaper and more efficient than grip heaters, because the heater is next to your skin instead of working through a few layers to just the inside of your palm. Of course, they're less convenient since it takes time before each ride to set them up.
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i used these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180988080340?item=180988080340&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:L:OC:US:3160&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/180988080340?item=180988080340&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:L:OC:US:3160&vxp=mtr)
and wired in a better switch like this:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2443.msg10745#msg10745 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2443.msg10745#msg10745)
and just tapped off the 12v accessory line under the faux tank (same thread, a few posts above mine shows it's location)
for serious cold weather riding, nothing beats a combo of electric gloves, socks, vest and chaps. i have ridden over eight hours in sub-30F temps with such a combo on a goldwing. i don't think such extremes apply to the zero because of it's range and battery concerns, but i did install grip heaters on my ds and they sure make cold commutes a lot more pleasant.
What kind of grip heaters did you use and how do you wire them in?
I have been thinking of adding grip heaters... Zero has them as an option but then they don't and they seem really expensive.
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8°F or -13°C this morning.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/07/a8u4agy9.jpg)
Not really sure what the range looks like in the cold now, as my ride is quite a bit shorter than it used to be.
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-17C or 2F riding weather today! Thanks to the polar vortex we have incredibly cold weather in North Jersey right now.
Rode to work on town roads, no highway. Worked like a charm, but I noticed top end acceleration was reduced a tad. Motorcycle resides in a garage overnight, and going home is downhill.
Happy riding, boys and girls!
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You are a braver man than I am, Ben! :o
I thought the BMS was supposed to cut out at around 20o F.
--Karl
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One other note. When I was leaving work I had to turn around in a tight area. While turning around and accelerating very gently to do a 5 point turn, the throttle seemed to cut out. However, I didn't need to restart or do anything besides throttle down, then it would work again. Temperature was 8 degrees and the bike had been outside for 8 hours in single digit temperatures.
When I finished turning around and could leave my parking area the bike worked fine. Again, the max throttle was not available, but I had plenty of acceleration for normal driving and I rode home like I do every day.
It was so cold that my ankles were uncomfortably cold before I even left my parking area. Whoa.
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Monday morning I left a semi-heated garage (maybe ~30F) with 7 bars remaining .. when I left in the evening, the bike had been cold-soaking at ~8F and showed one bar faintly blinking. No problems getting home though; I think the SOC meter just gets refuses to provide an estimate when the temperature drops below a certain point.
Tuesday I elected not to ride in, due to an ice slick that covered an intersection.
This morning it's warming up! It's like 23F outside.. it's springtime!
@bensswing the throttle cutout could be a controller glitch .. the most recent MBB update will reset the controller after a glitch without having to restart the bike.
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I think the SOC meter just gets refuses to provide an estimate when the temperature drops below a certain point
I've noticed that on my ZF9 as well. I suspect there is a temperate table for calculating SOC and it's not matching what the battery chemistry is actually doing (possibly because the batteries are heating up internally due to low temp internal resistance, and the temp sensors are not picking this up perhaps?)
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Terry and I had quite a ride a lot of it on solid ice... some places going over 10 mph was impossible or just too dangerious :
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=362606717168472&set=t.1261517185&type=3&theater)
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=362607343835076&set=t.1261517185&type=3&permPage=1)
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=362548597174284&set=t.1261517185&type=3&permPage=1)
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After my record breaking coldest ride at 7:30am on Jan 7, 2014 (according to this thread), I plugged in my 2012 Zero S into the onboard Delta-Q charger and it did not begin to charge (as expected).
I tracked the charging and it appeared to begin charging at 8am on Jan 11th when the temperature had been above 20 degrees for more than a day. The weather data for that week is included and I have identified the time and temperature when the charger turned on.
This is just one data point, but I thought it would be interesting even though motorcycles are generally not ridden much when there is the possibility of ice on the roads.
I got the weather data from http://www.weatherspark.com (http://www.weatherspark.com).