ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: WindRider on November 16, 2013, 09:36:29 AM
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Have any Zero riders bought the CHAdeMO option and if so what is that like to use? What are the costs to recharge at a public station?
Here in Idaho there are no CHAdeMO stations to be found but I was looking on PlugShare and it looks like there are some great possibilities to tour on a Zero and QuickCharge along the Oregon coast. Has anyone here done that?
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Reportedly some chademo stations will not charge the Zeeros because it is relatively low voltage @ ~100v.
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Reportedly some chademo stations will not charge the Zeeros because it is relatively low voltage @ ~100v.
Damn! are you serious!?..
If it's true then it's really disapointing!
Anyway... no real need of Chademo... With less than it cost for that option i built my own 1h ultracompact DC charger that can use the J1772 at 7kW and it work!
Doc
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Guys; I'm talking with fast charger and inverter manufacturers here, about this issue too. I'm trying to get a 7kW fast bi-directional charger with a controller that allows you to buy and sell the energy in the battery.
Intriguingly by next year several products will be available.
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Does someone knows the CHAdeMO standards?
I can't find data of the voltage only German Wiki says it will be in 300 to 600 Volt. 200A is mentioned often!
I fear the Systems will not regulate the voltage down to 50-100V what we would need.
protomech did I misunderstood you the charger are to low? or the charger can't go low.(sorry language gap)
http://www.chademo.com/ (http://www.chademo.com/)
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Guys; I'm talking with fast charger and inverter manufacturers here, about this issue too. I'm trying to get a 7kW fast bi-directional charger with a controller that allows you to buy and sell the energy in the battery.
Intriguingly by next year several products will be available.
I know SMA has developed a bi-directional charger for the charging stations "by government subvention"
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I've never even seen a charging station, and wouldn't use one if it were available cause it isn't how I use my Zero. I know the range and if I need to go farther, I take a gas bike instead. The need for a quick charge has never come up. I would really hate to depend on something like that too. What if it doesn't work or someone else is using it? The 110 plug in my garage always works. If all gas stations had them, I would feel differently about it I'm sure, but to plan a trip around charging whether CHAdeMO or using some other plug would be a source of apprehension to me at...something that is totally unnecessary with 4 other bikes and a car that don't need to be charged.
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The CHAdeMO spec supports up to 500V DC charging. But not all chargers (very unfortunately) support the full range of voltages.
Examples:
Will charge the Zeros
Aerovironment's Fleet 30 kW fleet DC charger is 100V to 500V, 100A maximum. (supports multiple protocols, and they have versions up to 250 kW!)
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/1_AV_EV30-FS_061110_fleet_dc.pdf (http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/1_AV_EV30-FS_061110_fleet_dc.pdf)
~1.2h charge time for ZF14.2
Nissan NSQC442E is 50V to 500V, 120A maximum.
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/Nissan%20DC%20FC%20sales%20sheet_092812_r3_v1.pdf (http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/Nissan%20DC%20FC%20sales%20sheet_092812_r3_v1.pdf)
~1.0h charge time for ZF14.2
Will not charge the Zeros
EVTEC 10kW and 20kW are 250V to 500V DC output, 60A max.
http://www.evtec.ch/c5website/index.php/en/products/move_and_charge/ (http://www.evtec.ch/c5website/index.php/en/products/move_and_charge/)
Blink Fast DC 60kW is 200V to 500V DC output, 200A max. (unfortunate, since these are the ones in Tennessee near me)
https://www.blinknetwork.com/brochures/dc-fast-charger/index.html (https://www.blinknetwork.com/brochures/dc-fast-charger/index.html)
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Wow you have really good information. Thanks
So it would be an idea to built a DC/DC for 300 to ~50V.
It would save weight but still we would need a "charger".
Unfortunately DC is rare here but maybe DC-Charging becomes more because BMW starts its i3 today and they mention DC-Charging for 0,5h to 8ß% - Maybe only marketing strategy ::)
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There are only 2 ChaDeMo staitons near me and they are both in NYC where they aren't very helpful (to me). If they were along I-95 at all the rest stops it would allow me to take road trips in my car or motorcycle.
Right now I have 4.5kW of charging capacity thanks to 2 Elcon chargers from Hollywood Electrics, but am thinking about asking Doctorbass to make one of his 7kW chargers for me since I use my bike for road trips.
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If doc is doing this for you and you like to charge the bike while it is "OFF" I can help you how to do.
I like to spend the time while charging - shopping or exploring the spot!
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If doc is doing this for you and you like to charge the bike while it is "OFF" I can help you how to do.
I like to spend the time while charging - shopping or exploring the spot!
Interesting ! So you know a command to activate the contactor with the bike OFF ? But to " activate" something like i say, the sevcon need to be powered and to get that the DC-DC need to work too.. so... how do you figure that out?
I knoe that on every Zero there is two line that control teh cahrge and the throttle.. i touhgt about working on that to get the BMS and contactor to be enable and to have the motorcycle OFF but i did not spent time on that... winter time will be just perfect for that as i will also upgrade for teh sevcon size 6 and add a ZF3 battery to it..
Doc
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I have tapped in the Anderson at the on board charger. I use the Battery+ (red) and the charger control line (white) because I need both for my additional hardware that protect the system if the BMS shut the charger off.
Battery - is always available at the Sevcon (not switched) .
I don't need to start the BMS because my on board charger is doing this but if you use a 10-20KOhm resistor to 3.3V at the white line the BMS will see it and pull it down to ~1V now the BMS is aware someone is charging.
This is the first thing to know
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The second thing is how to "open" the main relay like the bike is running.
I use a key-switch you can see on the photo at the right side under my seat.
I have cut the orange/red cable at pin 1 to the sevcon. it is the supply for the Sevcon.
In one position of the switch i connect the orange/red line as original (drive mode)
The center connection of the switch is running to the Sevcon the switching contact is the incoming cable (from MBB).
At the other contact of the switch I have connected the Battery + (tapped at the Anderson). If I switch the Key-switch to this position the Sevcon is powered on and the relay opens the high current path to the battery ;)
The rest of the bike is off! (of course the BMS is always on).
You can see the red Anderson connector for the charger and the green and blue small Anderson in front of the red one there is the battery + and the white BMS control line to my charging box.
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The System in use
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Thanks all for the informative answers.
Sounds like quick charging is still best done with chargers that go along for the ride.
Too bad, I like to travel light.
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I wanted to buy CHAdeMON to my S 2013 in July but it was not ready. 2 Delta-Q works fine but heavy.
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The CHAdeMO spec supports up to 500V DC charging. But not all chargers (very unfortunately) support the full range of voltages.
Examples:
Will charge the Zeros
Aerovironment's Fleet 30 kW fleet DC charger is 100V to 500V, 100A maximum. (supports multiple protocols, and they have versions up to 250 kW!)
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/1_AV_EV30-FS_061110_fleet_dc.pdf (http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/1_AV_EV30-FS_061110_fleet_dc.pdf)
~1.2h charge time for ZF14.2
Nissan NSQC442E is 50V to 500V, 120A maximum.
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/Nissan%20DC%20FC%20sales%20sheet_092812_r3_v1.pdf (http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/Nissan%20DC%20FC%20sales%20sheet_092812_r3_v1.pdf)
~1.0h charge time for ZF14.2
Will not charge the Zeros
EVTEC 10kW and 20kW are 250V to 500V DC output, 60A max.
http://www.evtec.ch/c5website/index.php/en/products/move_and_charge/ (http://www.evtec.ch/c5website/index.php/en/products/move_and_charge/)
Blink Fast DC 60kW is 200V to 500V DC output, 200A max. (unfortunate, since these are the ones in Tennessee near me)
https://www.blinknetwork.com/brochures/dc-fast-charger/index.html (https://www.blinknetwork.com/brochures/dc-fast-charger/index.html)
Thanks for posting this topic. And I am always impressed by the information shared on this forum. Protomech's information above appears particularly accurate.
We do have the CHAdeMO Fast Charge Socket Kit available(p/n 10-05718 for the 2013 Zero S/DS and 10-06185 for the 2013 Zero FX/XU). However, given our experience with potential incompatibilities due to the lack of low end voltage support from some charging stations, I have been requiring that every dealer that sells one talks to me about it and the customer as well. So sales to end consumers have been limited, and it's really more attractive to fleet customers that are installing a charging station that they know is compatible. Bottom line is that the cost is high enough that I don't want to get crucified by someone who didn't fully appreciate the issues here, which we are actively working to resolve with charging station companies.
After learning all this, if you are excited to get the CHAdeMO capability, please PM me and we can work with your local dealer to get it installed. We do have them in stock.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
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Hey Aaron,
It would be great if Zero could do something like this or piggyback onto it in some way:
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger (http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger)
This is a well planned and thought out attempt to remove the range/recharge issues from long distance EV travel. Why not a little Zero SuperCharger next to the Tesla version?
;)
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Or better yet, use the Tesla Supercharger port directly. They've mentioned a possibility of opening up the ports to other vehicles, but I don't know how serious Tesla's interest is in doing so.
I suspect Tesla is planning out the Supercharger network around a minimum 200 mile vehicle range.
This does a couple things for them:
* more range => stations can be sparser and fewer in number
* larger batteries => can safely charge at higher mile per hour rates => less time waiting to charge for a given trip => more trips charged per station
If Tesla does open up the stations, I bet Tesla will require a minimum miles charged per hour rate in order to use the stations. Model S can charge at 350-400 miles per hour at a 120 kW station, and Tesla is talking about bumping the charging rate further.
It would be silly for Tesla to allow a Zero or other vehicle to charge at 70 miles per hour, occupying a charging station for 5x the length of time as a Tesla for a given distance traveled. Particularly as the stations start to fill up - I'm curious how availability at the California stations is playing out given the number of Tesla sales in that state.
A 20 kWh bike with Terry's aero shell (100 Wh/mile @ 70 mph) charging at 2C (with active cooling?) would have a 200 mile range and could bulk charge at the rate of 400 miles per hour. This should be the minimum target for a touring bike.
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From the graphic on Tesla's Supercharger site the targets are clear:
200 miles of Range, 30 minutes to charge.
Given that, you could drive 400 miles in one day with only 30 minutes of charging time and the second charge could happen overnight.
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BSD,
Nice work!
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Interesting to finally understand the reluctance regarding the CHAdeMO charging. I have a Nissan Leaf and I love the CHAdeMO charging capability. From where I live I can access five CHAdeMO chargers - making it easy for me to drive longer distances on electricity. My Zero is a 2012, so I can't do the fast DC charging on my bike and I was wondering why more 2013 Zero riders weren't excited about this technology.
It makes sense that the CHAdeMO chargers were designed to charge at higher voltages (the Leaf has a 400V system). Hopefully Zero will find a way to make their bikes compatible with more of the existing chargers - it sounds like they're working with the CHAdeMO charger manufacturers. If the CHAdeMO manufacturers can adjust the chargers so that they will work at lower voltages without affecting the ability to charge cars at higher voltages - why wouldn't they? They would get more customers.
The Nissan dealerships all have J1772 chargers, and some of them also have CHAdeMO chargers - since I also have a Leaf they are happy to allow me to plug my Zero into their J1772 chargers - and I'm sure they'd let me use the CHAdeMO charger if I could.
This is the CHAdeMO charger at Zero Headquarters in Scotts Valley - I didn't ask, but I'm willing to bet it works with the Zero bikes - has anyone tried it?
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Looks like an ABB Terra 51.
http://www.abb.us/product/seitp332/7376219a12dbef8f85257b5d00595275.aspx?productLanguage=us&country=US (http://www.abb.us/product/seitp332/7376219a12dbef8f85257b5d00595275.aspx?productLanguage=us&country=US)
(http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot344.nsf/veritydisplay/3dd5b7b5b9dc2b49c12579f30039b738/$file/4EVC203001-PHEN_Terra51ChargingACar.jpg)
Output voltage range 50-500V
Maximum current output 120A
Perfect for the Zero bikes.
It's probably a little more difficult to design (= expensive) and costly to manufacture a charger that can handle the full range of the CHAdeMO specification. That's why you see a lot of chargers max at 100A, and sometimes only go as low as 200V .. if it works for a LEAF and an i-MiEV then it captures probably > 95% of the vehicles sold that can charge with CHAdeMO.
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If it can't match full spec then it not really a standard. Its false standard and marketing. if there are different levels of spec it should be marketed as such, similar to PC specs, e.g. USB spec, USB 2, USB 3.
Chademo should havel similar catorgies / levels.
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When I order my 2013 S in July I was ready to order CHAdeMON but it wasnt ready then. For roadtrips I see a huge advantage.
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The second thing is how to "open" the main relay like the bike is running.
I use a key-switch you can see on the photo at the right side under my seat.
I have cut the orange/red cable at pin 1 to the sevcon. it is the supply for the Sevcon.
In one position of the switch i connect the orange/red line as original (drive mode)
The center connection of the switch is running to the Sevcon the switching contact is the incoming cable (from MBB).
At the other contact of the switch I have connected the Battery + (tapped at the Anderson). If I switch the Key-switch to this position the Sevcon is powered on and the relay opens the high current path to the battery ;)
The rest of the bike is off! (of course the BMS is always on).
You can see the red Anderson connector for the charger and the green and blue small Anderson in front of the red one there is the battery + and the white BMS control line to my charging box.
Excellent work! I just discovered your reply on that thread and thats very interesting. So you can have the BMS working and stoping the charger for protection? and have the bike OFF while the BMS is ON and can charge thru the sevcon main power line?
Doc
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Hi Doc
... have the bike OFF while the BMS is ON and can charge thru the sevcon main power line?
Yes it works fine.
So you can have the BMS working and stopping the charger for protection?
I still was to lazy to built my circuit-board that detect the BMS signal. I did same tests to activate the BMS but I never saw the "white" line to shut off (I always stopped charging before) so I guess the white line will make a protection signal but I can't be 100% sure.
Not long ago I had my first look to the MBB and BMS settings and I am not sure but maybe it is possible to set the end of charge level lower to see if the protection work but the battery is still in save voltage condition. Winter time is long ;)
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How does it work with the Chademo kit? Does it also connect to the Sevcon and thus need to power the Sevcon or is it done differently?
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Sorry we are a bit away from the topic and even talk of 2012 models :-[
I don't know how ChAdeMo is connected but you don't need the Sevcon for this. I have more current as the 30A battery connector/wiring endure. I don't want to open the battery and fiddle in some connectors so the easy way was to use the Sevcon to power on the main relay. Therefore the 400+Amp path is usable.
The 2013-14 will have high a current path to the Battery but I would also like to have detail information.
A photo from the powertrain pdf let me think the "top-box" has a high current connection to the battery inside!
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Hey BSD,
No problem that the thread has strayed away from target.
I think the answer to "Anyone using CHAdeMO?" is no, so feel free to stray into any kind of charging topic of interest. I enjoy reading all of it.
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it's my first post here on the forum, so first of all thank you for the interesting readings.
I'm planning to buy a DS 2014 (I test rode the 2013) to substitute my ICE bike with which I love to do road trips now and then, but normally I don't take highways and I don't ride for more than 250km (155mi) per day. For these trips, I was thinking about the CHAdeMO option that unfortunately, after reading your posts, doesn't seem a real "option"... :(
So I was wondering, how are you guys connecting those ELCON chargers to your bikes seen that Zero uses a proprietary connector (am I right?) for its crappy huge, heavy, slow and damn expensive "quick" charger?? Not to mention the Y cable, which I think has a higher price-to-weight ratio than platinum...
If I have well understood, for its Meanwell charger DOC opened up the BMS and added its own connector. However I'm not such an expert and I wouldn't want to void the warranty of a 16k euro bike...
I found this pretty cheap (around 500$), compact and powerful charger:
http://www.lowcarbon-idea.com/eshowshop.asp?/16.html (http://www.lowcarbon-idea.com/eshowshop.asp?/16.html)
what do you think about it? They have also higher power chargers, but I think that 3kW is the highest power that the Zero connector can take. I don't care if it isn't waterproof, it’s about 1/3 in size and weight with respect to an equivalent power sealed ELCON charger, so I would bring it with me only when needed and inside the top box.
Thank you and I hope to join you as an electric rider soon!!
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http://www.lowcarbon-idea.com/eshowshop.asp?/16.html (http://www.lowcarbon-idea.com/eshowshop.asp?/16.html)
These guys need some EU or US certifications their website seems polished but I wouldn't connect a $16K bike up to anything that isn't proven by forum members or industry or a lot of testing ;)
I hear that Zero is warning potential buyers about problems with Chademo and at this point it does not work in all place. What I'm wondering is if there is a fix for this? Like an inline DC/DC converter? Might have to be beefy ;D
@Iz4r0 I think the charger will work but there needs to be a lot of work done. There is a video on youtube that DocBass made of his charger setup that would be a good place to start.
Good Luck
Edit: On second look they do have a IP rating EU ;D
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In the last week, I have received a large number of inbound questions from our sales team on CHAdeMO. Perhaps from people reading this thread? So I thought I would post a little something here.
I do have the 2013 CHAdeMO Mounting Kit installed on my Zero DS and it works as it should. We believe any problems stem from charging stations that have not fully implemented the CHAdeMO specification. Our motorcycles operate at a lower voltage than most electric automobiles, and many of the charging stations focused their designs for these cars. I have been reaching out to the CHAdeMO organization and the engineering team has been working with charging station companies to address these issues, but there does not seem to be a quick fix.
Bottom line is I don't want anyone to purchase this kit unless they are sure they have access to compatible stations. Our fleet customers will typically look at installing a station so they can ensure compliance. Otherwise, all inbound retail orders come to me for discussion. But if you have a 2013 motorcycle and want this functionality, it's a great feeling to have your motorcycle recharge from 0 to 95% in about one hour. Feel free to PM me and I can get you connected (literally).
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
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Thanks for the info Aaron. As a Leaf driver I love the CHAdeMO fast-DC charging option - it's amazing to watch the battery 'fill-up' quickly - and makes the EV experience much more practical.
As a Zero rider (2012 ZF9) I was really happy to see Zero introduce this capability... although I wish I'd waited for the 2013 bikes ;-)
On the Zero website it says that the CHAdeMO option is also available on the 2014 bikes - is it safe to assume that Zero will continue to offer this option and continue to work with charging stations manufacturers? I'm tentatively planning on a new bike in about a year from now - preferably one with fast-DC charging capabilities.
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Unfortunately almost all modern CHAdeMO charging station in Europe are not compatible with the Zeros... :'(
In fact, the main european installer does not offer CHAdeMo chargers with voltages lower than 200V (I checked here http://www.dbtcev.fr/en/ (http://www.dbtcev.fr/en/) ). That's a shame because for scooters and motorcycles DC charging is the only real quick charge possibility, seen the space and weight limitations to bring more powerful onboard chargers.
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Hello Aaron,
I have an electric scooter from www.currentmotor.com (http://www.currentmotor.com) that offers 40 miles of range and is plenty for my commute. However, to go on longer trips I am saving up for a Zero S ZF11.4. These trips are 100 miles or longer @ 60-70 mph--and can include climbing thousands feet of elevation to cross over the Cascade Mountain Range. Because of this, adding the Power Tank and CHAdeMO kit seem necessary. Otherwise, what might be a convenient half-hour rest break or one-hour meal every 70-85 miles over level ground--or after 20-25 miles of climbing over a mountain pass--becomes an overnight stay to allow for 10 hours of recharging at 120V.
I have been reaching out to the CHAdeMO organization and the engineering team has been working with charging station companies to address these issues, but there does not seem to be a quick fix. [...] Bottom line is I don't want anyone to purchase this kit unless they are sure they have access to compatible stations.
In Seattle, I had the pleasure of speaking with Jeff Jolin and Richard Walker last weekend at the International Motorcycle Show to learn more about the CHAdeMO kit. Richard said that there was a maximum voltage that the CHAdeMO kit could support, and that EVSE manufacturers targeted higher voltages because they assumed that only cars or larger vehicles would use them.
Based on their feedback and what you wrote above, I fear that Zero's CHAdeMO kit will not support the long trips I'm planning.
Could you please advise how customers may become "sure they have access to compatible stations"?
In Washington State, CHAdeMO installations are split between Blink (now CarCharging) in urban areas and AeroVironment outside of these areas (see www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/WAelectrichighways.htm (http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/WAelectrichighways.htm)). I have a Blink in my garage for my LEAF, but once on the road, I will be at the mercy of AeroVironment's EVSEs, so that is the focus of my inquiry.
For the specific case of the AeroVironment EV50 documented at www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/pdfs/DCfastchargeequipment.pdf (http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/pdfs/DCfastchargeequipment.pdf), can Zero's CHAdeMO kit charge from it successfully?
For the general case, how should customers read an EVSE spec sheet to learn whether Zero's CHAdeMO kit is compatible with it?
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Thanks and best regards,
Michael
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Looks like Zero may need to include a Voltage step-down circuit in the CHAdeMO kit. If they could make a circuit that could communicate with the CHAdeMO charging station and step down the voltage as necessary, that should fix the problem.
I'm very interested in faster charging on the road and (happily) there are now more fast charging stations available on the East Coast. They are listed on Plugshare, but not on the map on the official CHAdeMO site.
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In Seattle, I had the pleasure of speaking with Jeff Jolin and Richard Walker last weekend at the International Motorcycle Show to learn more about the CHAdeMO kit. Richard said that there was a maximum voltage that the CHAdeMO kit could support, and that EVSE manufacturers targeted higher voltages because they assumed that only cars or larger vehicles would use them.
Based on their feedback and what you wrote above, I fear that Zero's CHAdeMO kit will not support the long trips I'm planning.
Could you please advise how customers may become "sure they have access to compatible stations"?
In Washington State, CHAdeMO installations are split between Blink (now CarCharging) in urban areas and AeroVironment outside of these areas (see www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/WAelectrichighways.htm (http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/WAelectrichighways.htm)). I have a Blink in my garage for my LEAF, but once on the road, I will be at the mercy of AeroVironment's EVSEs, so that is the focus of my inquiry.
For the specific case of the AeroVironment EV50 documented at www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/pdfs/DCfastchargeequipment.pdf (http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/pdfs/DCfastchargeequipment.pdf), can Zero's CHAdeMO kit charge from it successfully?
For the general case, how should customers read an EVSE spec sheet to learn whether Zero's CHAdeMO kit is compatible with it?
Probably the ultimate answer will be a compatibility list of CHAdeMO chargers.
In general, however, the problem is that many CHAdeMO chargers are limited to a minimum voltage of 150V or 200V DC, where the 2013-2014 Zero bikes need 84-118V DC. For example, the Blink chargers are limited to 200V minimum, where the Aerovironment charger claims a minimum of 50V DC. In theory, then, the Aerovironment charger would be compatible with the Zero CHAdeMO inlet.
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Probably the ultimate answer will be a compatibility list of CHAdeMO chargers.
Thank you for your reply, Protomech. I agree that a compatibility list would be helpful. However, I suspect such a list would be time consuming to maintain and impossible for Zero to exhaustively test. Further, the inconvenience of having to consult a compatibility table would deter potential customers unless the compatibility list was published as a convenient overlay on existing EVSE maps like Plugshare's.
the 2013-2014 Zero bikes need 84-118V DC.
Thanks for this number. Where did you find it? I didn't see it on the Zero web site under the model S specs page or the CHAdeMO accessory page.
the Aerovironment charger claims a minimum of 50V DC. In theory, then, the Aerovironment charger would be compatible with the Zero CHAdeMO inlet.
Yes, reading that number in the AeroVironment EV50 spec sheet made me cautiously optimistic, but I look forward to confirmation from Zero.
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Thanks,
Michael
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We all know that the right answer is CHAdeMO should work in every case. For this reason, I am continuing to work with the CHAdeMO organization to ensure that this is the goal. When charging station companies comply with the full specification, then we believe we will always work. And thus, our CHAdeMO solution today tends to be best for fleet customers willing to install a known compatible charging station.
With respect to the specific questions regarding a compatibility list and AeroVironment here:
Probably the ultimate answer will be a compatibility list of CHAdeMO chargers.
Yes. I have an unofficial list. It's hard to maintain because there is no central testing location or methodology under which we can maintain this list. If you ever see a Zero at one of the CHAdeMO stations in the Bay Area, its probably part of our testing program. On weekends, I like to ride from one to the next just to see what happens. I can say I feel good about ABB and Nissan stations. Blink generally does not support the lower voltages. I have a meeting tomorrow with AeroVironment, which supports the voltage but has another issue we are looking to confirm.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
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I have a meeting tomorrow with AeroVironment, which supports the voltage but has another issue we are looking to confirm.
Aaron, thank you very much for your reply, and for fighting the good fight for compatibility.
Best wishes for a fruitful meeting with AeroVironment!
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Cheers,
Michael
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As a Leaf driver I was very happy to hear that Zero had offered a high-speed charging option. It's amazing to watch the battery gauge go from empty to full in just a few minutes.
I'm tentatively planning on selling my 2012 Zero at the end of this year to purchase a 2015. If the CHAdeMO option is still available I will be purchasing it. Even if I have to research which stations are compatible with the bike it will be worth it.
If the 2014 Zero ZF14 range is anywhere near the advertised range (171 miles) - they are now in the same ballpark as a gas bike. The longest I've ridden on a gas bike before stopping is 140 miles (on reserve).
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oobflyer - keep in mind that the ZF14.2 range is in city riding (which would take 5 or 6 hours to complete that range test!). Highway riding, where you would have more of a need for fast charging, can deplete the ZF14.2 battery in about 75 minutes, which is still very decent range. Even in two years Zero has gone from 43 miles of highway range to 88 miles.
I've got my fingers crossed for a touring bike from Zero in 2015.
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I've got my fingers crossed for a touring bike from Zero in 2015.
I am hoping to turn my zero into a touring zero by adding streamlining and increasing my range 50% or more =D
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I'm very much hoping that 2015 will see a viable touring bike from Zero.
However would it not require around 20 > 30kW of battery power to push it up into the 150 to 200 mile range, I fear price and space might become an issue with the current level of technology.
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20 kWh onboard battery + a slipstream fairing like Terry's Zero would give it approximately 180-200 miles of highway range.
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20 kWh onboard battery + a slipstream fairing like Terry's Zero would give it approximately 180-200 miles of highway range.
And would be pretty heavy. That would be another two or three 45 pound battery modules that you would have to find somewhere to stuff. Not an easy task. The "power tank" feature on my bike pretty well maxes out the Zero's frame and chassis.
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Well, it is clearly time for a huge advancement in battery tech.
Zero just needs to come out with a ZF20 battery pack that fits in the same space and with the same weight as the current ZF2.8 pack and the touring bike is a reality.
If only battery tech would march on a Moore's Law timeline all would be good.
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I don't think it would quite max out the chassis - the ZF11.4 has 366 pounds remaining of carrying capacity, so 45 lbs x 4 = 180 would leave room for a lighter rider. But it's certainly close, far closer than Zero would likely release for production. Exceed the design weight at your own peril, as Mr. Hershner has discovered on multiple occasions.
Excluding the packaging and additional redundant electronics, the additional 2.5 kWh battery modules are only 32 pounds - see ZF8.5 vs ZF11.4. So a well-integrated 20 kWh bike would likely weigh in at around 550 pounds, plus fairing and higher powered chargers .. perhaps 600 pounds in total. This is a pretty big bike, as such bikes go .. but it would offer range competitive with most gas bikes (130 - 200 miles) and 2C DC charge rates would allow for convenient travel.
Other comparison points:
* Brutus V2 Rocket (http://brutusmotorcycle.com/brutusV2Rocket.html), three battery configurations 12.8 kWh, 17.8 kWh, 21.7 kWh. Weight listed at 545 pounds, unclear what size configuration it refers to.
* Mission R (https://www.mission-motorcycles.com/r), three battery configurations 12 kWh, 15 kWh, 17 kWh. Weight listed at 490, 510, 540 pounds respectively.
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We just need those batteries we have been promised for years with 4 x the density.
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Well, it is clearly time for a huge advancement in battery tech.
Zero just needs to come out with a ZF20 battery pack that fits in the same space and with the same weight as the current ZF2.8 pack and the touring bike is a reality.
If only battery tech would march on a Moore's Law timeline all would be good.
That would be a lithium-air battery then... :)
We just need those batteries we have been promised for years with 4 x the density.
Right now I'd be happy with 2x density.
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Even without large increases in density, battery technology is "good enough" now to support touring ranges comparable to or superior to most gas bikes, and high charging power with relatively low cell charge rates .. but only in an expensive, heavy bike.
Large increases in density and reductions in cost ARE required for large batteries in a relatively inexpensive small bike. Keep in mind that "small" in a gas bike is still pretty large for Zero: a CBR250R weighs ~360 pounds with a full tank, a CBR500R weighs ~430 pounds with a full tank.
Zero uses pretty dense batteries now, ~170 Wh/kg. However, a 15 kWh Tesla-style battery using denser cylindrical cells would likely weigh around 200 pounds (https://web.archive.org/web/20120621203813/http://www.ntsworks.com/New_Battery.html), about the same as Zero's 10 kWh ZF11.4 battery. Tesla bulk charges their batteries at approximately 2C, so this battery could accept a 30 kW bulk charge rate from DC QC. It's possible that this charge rate would require additional cooling, which would increase weight.
So this gives us a 400 pound 15 kWh bike with existing technology, 100 miles of highway range or 200 miles of city range, and it could accept an 80% charge (80 miles) in 30 minutes. Tesla's cost for assembled packs are rumored to be in the $250-300/kWh range, so our pack would cost around $4500.
Faster and lighter than a CBR500R, decent highway range, and relatively quick charge times ... with existing technology. A 150 mile highway trip would take 2 hours to ride, 30 minutes to charge midway through .. that seems pretty reasonable to me.
None of those requires new technology, only the will and financial commitment to make it happen.
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Well, Tesla will be manufacturing lots of U.S. made batteries in the next few years. Maybe they will be willing to share a few with the electric motorcycle industry. :)
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I have a meeting tomorrow with AeroVironment, which supports the voltage but has another issue we are looking to confirm.
How did the meeting with AeroVironment go, Aaron?
If the AV DCFC stations deployed in my area (http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/) are compatible, then that'll be a big relief and strong incentive to order a bike with the Power Tank and CHAdeMO included.
If that falls through, it's nice to know that in those areas where CHAdeMO isn't as widely available, a stock quick-charger accessory or two (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2801.msg20185#msg20185), or an Elcon 2500W charger (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2801.msg20179#msg20179) or two are solutions are trusted by this community.
However, the dual-Elcon setup adds $700 to the price ($1,000 x 2 Elcon 2500W + $500 for the J1772 cable (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3516.msg20146#msg20146)) relative to $1,800 for the CHAdeMO, adds 30 pounds to the weight, charges ~20 minutes slower than the CHAdeMO (1.5 hours vs. 1.8 hours), and possibly voids the warranty, so there is a lot to think about.
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Thanks,
Michael
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It's slightly worse than that.
http://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/7344653/7638094.htm (http://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/7344653/7638094.htm)
Each TCCH-96-22 can bulk charge at 22A DC. This compares favorably to the 1.3 kW onboard charger array which can bulk charge at 12 A DC, and if all 3 chargers were able to be slaved together then you should be able to bulk charge at 56 A DC from a 30 A AC J1772 EVSE. A 50% charge would take 54 minutes with all 3 chargers, or 68 minutes with only the Elcon chargers.
CHAdeMO can provide up to 125 A DC, though it appears Zero limits the battery to a 1C charge. A 50% charge would take 30 minutes.
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No offense guys but I do t want to see zeros taking 4 hours to charge hogging tesla stations. As someone with a tesla order being done I want access to charging as it was designed--fast. If the bike conformed to tesla charging standard it would probably take 15 min to fully charge
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We're talking here about CHAdeMO, which is a fast DC charger similar to Tesla's Supercharger but not the same.
Currently only Tesla vehicles can access the Supercharger and I fully expect Tesla to tightly manage access to this network. IF Tesla opens up the Supercharger to other vehicles, I expect they will require that either the vehicles can charge as quickly as Tesla Model S in terms of miles per hour (300+ miles charged/hour: for motorcycles, this is likely to be in the 40-50 kW charge power range), or that they are able to accept the maximum station charge power for bulk charging (imagine a Tesla truck or a municipal bus).
I also expect the Model E to charge at 300+ miles per hour. If it uses 10% less highway power than the Model S at a given speed, then it will need to accept approximately a 120 kW bulk charge, or 3C on a 40 kWh pack.
This will minimize the time used per vehicle at the station, minimize contention for limited charging resources, and minimize the infrastructure that Tesla needs to deploy and support.
I also see Tesla only deploying stations in ways that make sense for their vehicles, which to date have consistently have had the largest battery packs and longest EV range available. This means that stations will be spaced for convenient Tesla usage; until Zero and other companies have vehicles with 150+ miles of highway range, stations spaced 100+ miles apart will be of only limited utility.
Fear not about hordes of Zero bikes occupying the Supercharger stations. The primary concern will be what happens when usage increases from 30k Model S vehicles to Model E vehicles being produced at the rate of 500k/year ... but there are certainly worse problems to have.
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The connectors are very different. I predict an underground/black market adapter industry ;-)