ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: benswing on April 28, 2015, 11:29:55 PM
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Now that Zero has ceased making ChaDeMo charging available for their systems, we will have to find someone else to make an adapter. They won't do it if there is no demand. This poll is designed to see what the demand is for a ChaDeMo fast charging system. This price is for the charging adapter only, not including installation (if necessary).
If you are not interested in it, please don't fill out the poll.
For new people: ChaDeMo fast charging has the capability to charge a Zero from 0-80% in half an hour. However, some ChaDeMo stations are not made to spec and they do not charge at the voltage Zeros use (about 100V). Hopefully this poll will show some opportunistic electrical engineer that there is demand to make adapters for us.
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This might serve as a good indicator of availability. (see attachment)
If you search other countries the numbers are often flipped in favor of CHAdeMO for some...
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Below is an email from Aaron Cheatham at Zero Motorcycles that was sent to my Zero dealer on 1 August 2014. My dealer forwarded this email to me.
The bottom line is that Zero felt good about ABB, Nissan and Fuji CHAdeMO systems. They had limited but successful testing of Eaton CHAdeMO. There is someone on this forum who had a CHAdeMO on their 2013 Zero and successfully charged at Eaton CHAdeMO systems.
Hi Tanner,
I am glad we finally connected via phone. I thought I would send a quick email for your reference based on our conversation.
The 2014 Zero SR CHAdeMO kit has not been released by engineering. I believe we are only a few weeks away, but I wouldn't be able to ship immediately.
You asked about compatibility with an Eaton Charging Station. Unfortunately, we have limited access to this brand and have not been able to perform thorough compatibility testing. Our tests with the two systems in California were successful, but your customer may want to contact Eaton about this specific charge station to be sure. The specific questions that should be directed toward Eaton are whether they implemented the full CHAdeMO specification and support voltages as low as 50V.
In general, we have not been able to provide an official compatibility list because there is no central testing location or methodology offered by the CHAdeMO group to ensure it. We have found incompatibilities with stations that we believe have not fully implemented the CHAdeMO specification. Usually, these related to a lack of support for voltages around 100v, which our motorcycles require, or Isolation Tests. And a specific brand of station can differ by model or even firmware revision. From our testing, we generally feel good about ABB, Fuji and Nissan stations, but Blink typically doesn't support the lower voltages. AeroVironment may be working on a firmware improvement that will help, but they have not announced a release date.
We all know that the right answer is CHAdeMO should work in every case. For this reason, I am continuing to work with the CHAdeMO organization to ensure that this is the goal. And we believe that when charging station companies comply with the full specification, then our solution will work. But because the market isn't there yet, our CHAdeMO solution today tends to be best for fleet customers willing to install a known compatible charging station. I am happy to speak directly to the end customer about this if it helps support your business.
Regards,
Aaron Cheatham
Director of Customer Experience
Zero Motorcycles
@aaronzeromoto
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I believe a quick charging like chademo is needed over anything else to bring electric motorcycles like zero to the mainstream.
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DC charging would be considerably better than improving the chargers (which I'm deeply in favour of as it stands)
In the wider EV world I'd not shed a tear if AC charging died and went away and all charge stations were DC only.
The reduced need to fit large expensive chargers to EV's would help with prices, space and charging times.
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The reduced need to fit large expensive chargers to EV's would help with prices, space and charging times.
And it reduces the weight of your bike
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I think what would be as good as, if not better, option would be for Zero to incorporate a Stage 2 J1772 charge connector to their bikes. Brammo does this on the Eclipse.
That could provide up to 80A of charge current thus reducing recharge time.
And... these J1772 Stage 2 recharging stations are much more common that ChAdeMo.
Of course it would be imperative that Zero support Stage 2 charging thru the J1772 connector.
(The current J1772 option from Zero is stage 1 with 15A Peak capability)
Here's more info on J1772 for those unfamiliar with the specification---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772)
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I think the challenge is finding a J1772 that can put out 80A/19.2kW. Honestly have never heard of any that do. My experience is most only go to 6.6kW maybe 7.2kW. Some Blink are well under that.
For Zero to incorporate a J1772 charging system means they would have to modify the BMS. The reason that those of us using Elcons can't charge at GE Wattstations is that they require interaction with the BMS in order to provide power. It would also have to automatically adjust for the power level of the J1772 system. I can charge with 6300 watts from 2-2500 watt Elcons and the 1300 watt internal charger. But sometimes have to unplug the internal charger to prevent the breaker on the J1772 from tripping. Have had to go down to 3800 watts on some Blink networked systems.
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I don't think the BMS would need to be modified, rather they need to select a charger that can adjust the amount of power it draws based on what the pilot signal from the EVSE says is availible.
While I have encountered many EVSE's that support up to 40 amp power draw, 30 and 32 amp are much more common. I have not encountered one that is rated for more than 40 amps yet, even if supported by the specification.
To get beyond 7.2 kW, going with multiple chargers that can be connected independently, like what Tesla does, seems to be the most practical option.
My Brammo Empluse R has a 3 kW onboard charger. If I had an option for dual 6.6 kW chargers, I would have no desire for DC charging at all. Realistically, a single 6.6 kW onboard charger would have a more reasonable weight penalty. Having an optional 2nd charger that could be attached as a side or top case would be an optimal solution. If DC charging were more common and more cost effective, it would make a more attractive solution, but that seems like it will be a few years away still.
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A lght weight internal charger combined with DC charging is the best solution, I think. The new standard in the US and Europe is DC Combo charging, CCS, which is rapidly growing. Energica and Lightning are using CCS and can easily combined with AC charging. The CCS chargers in Europe (I dont know if thats also in the US) support 50-400VDC
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There seems to be confusion among some people responding to this poll. This question comes from people who are already using J1772 plugs and would like to charge faster. We already are well aware of the J1772 plugs that are available.
Level two charging just doesn't cut it for road trips for most people. I have already traveled 10,000 miles on road trips and crossed the country using level two charging.
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This question comes from people who are already using J1772 plugs and would like to charge faster. We already are well aware of the J1772 plugs that are available.
Not just faster, but lighter and cooler as well, with more space left for storage. All that heat-creating, space consuming, not especially lightweight rectification and regulation equipment doesn't have to be on the bike, so it shouldn't be on the bike. CHAdeMO would be a great solution if the equipment mfrs would just commit to it. It's not a standard if nobody complies with it, and us consumers deserve better.
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This question comes from people who are already using J1772 plugs and would like to charge faster. We already are well aware of the J1772 plugs that are available.
Not just faster, but lighter and cooler as well, with more space left for storage. All that heat-creating, space consuming, not especially lightweight rectification and regulation equipment doesn't have to be on the bike, so it shouldn't be on the bike. CHAdeMO would be a great solution if the equipment mfrs would just commit to it. It's not a standard if nobody complies with it, and us consumers deserve better.
Simpler as well, if the EV world moved over to DC charging, then there would be one less component on the bikes / cars to go wrong.
In the really real world however, having an AC charger on the vehicle does give you options in the event of an emergency .
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In the really real world however, having an AC charger on the vehicle does give you options in the event of an emergency .
Oh, I don't know about anybody else, but I'd never dream of proposing getting rid of the existing on-vehicle charger. At least 90% of my needs are met by commuting by day and plugging in overnight. I'm just looking for a supplementary option to meet the last 10% of my needs in an ideal way.
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I am with Doug S on this one. :)
But I have to admit that it would be nice to be able to plug into a commercial charger if needed to as long as I didn't have to carry around some large gun-like connector device that takes up a lot of useful room in my saddlebags. ::)
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...as long as I didn't have to carry around some large gun-like connector device that takes up a lot of useful room in my saddlebags. ::)
Agreed. That J1772 connector is terrible, as is the CHAdeMO connector. Monstrously huge for what they do. Tesla's supercharger connector is half the size and can supply many times the current.
I REALLY hate to say it (http://xkcd.com/927/ (http://xkcd.com/927/)), but we need a better standard, and one that everyone will comply with. Tesla's solution would be fantastic, I love their connector and it seems like they're electrically compatible as well, but they're placing their stations all wrong for our needs -- they're catering to vehicles with 200+ mile range, traveling cross-country between cities.
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Definitely ready for a ChaDeMo-capable e-motorcycle here in the Pacific Northwest, where we have AeroVironment, Blink, Eaton, and recently eVgo ChaDeMo stations. The L2-capable Brammo Empulse is a fun stopgap, though. Every AeroVironment ChaDeMo along the West Coast Green Highway is accompanied by an L2.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150316006199/en/Gov.-Inslee-Bellevue-Nissan-Open-EV-Fast-Charging&ved=0CDAQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE6NcFIDJAKdMdtzkOScyipRF7jWA&sig2=8CCs-PVLdiv1AXGBsAzEVg (http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150316006199/en/Gov.-Inslee-Bellevue-Nissan-Open-EV-Fast-Charging&ved=0CDAQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE6NcFIDJAKdMdtzkOScyipRF7jWA&sig2=8CCs-PVLdiv1AXGBsAzEVg)
Ben, good luck finding a homegrown ChaDeMo accessory! However, given the precedent shown on this site, it might not be too long before someone gets involved.
Then again, there's also hope for whatever Polaris/Victory hope to bring to market.
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If you are interested in this, be sure to check out:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricMotorcyclers/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricMotorcyclers/)
or
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/)
and respond to Tony Williams' post about looking into CHAdeMO for Zero Motorcycles.
Let him know if you are interested in buying it at his price point!
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Ben,
I am not on Facebook. Mind copying the details into another post here? Thanks.
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CHAdeMO for ZERO motorcycles - this seems to come up frequently recently, and I have been asked by a group of ZERO owners to build a CHAdeMO charging option for the ZERO.
It is likely to cost about $2500, so the question becomes, who would be interested in this for their bike?
I'm providing this link to our company, so that you can get a flavor for what we've already done:
http://shop.quickchargepower.com/JdeMo-for-Rav4EV-JdeMORav4 (http://shop.quickchargepower.com/JdeMo-for-Rav4EV-JdeMORav4)…
Please post here so we can discuss this, but also feel free to share on other ZERO motorcycle related sites. You can contact us at:
JdeMO (((@))) QuickChargePower (((daught))) com
Here are some questions from the Electric Motorcycle Facebook forum:
1) Will it charge my 66-100 volt motorcycle? Yes, when we reconfigure the battery in a "charging mode" at a far higher voltage
2) Can't I just sue or get a law to make CHAdeMO work with ZERO motorcycles? Sure, see ya in ten years; let me know how it worked out.
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Ultrarnr send him an email. He wants to hear from us. He made my NEMA 14-50 cord.
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Thanks, Ben. Replied to his fb post. Sounds like he's in need of a loaner Zero to experiment on. Will be looking forward to the results of his investigation.
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Ben,
I sent him a message. $2500.00 is pricy but I also realize the CCS for the EGO is a bit over $2400.00. In the end it really changes your ability to travel with the bike and can save a lot of hours in charging time.
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So I've been looking rather seriously at these power supplies to build a J1772 recharging system out of: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TYCO-AC-3000-52-48V-3000W-1RU-DC-Rectifier-Power-Supply-AC-3000-48-CASE-OF-2-/321709429496?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae76052f8 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/TYCO-AC-3000-52-48V-3000W-1RU-DC-Rectifier-Power-Supply-AC-3000-48-CASE-OF-2-/321709429496?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae76052f8)
Then I noticed in the data sheet (http://www.datasheetlib.com/datasheet/164652/ac-3000-52_lineage-power.html (http://www.datasheetlib.com/datasheet/164652/ac-3000-52_lineage-power.html) ) that it says it's "designed for ac and dc inputs", which most likely means it has an oversized full-wave rectifier on the front end. Hmm....so I could tell a CHAdeMO station I'm a 240V battery, tell it I need no more than 100 amps (which would be plenty to run two of these power supplies off of), it would presumably go into CV mode, and I could run the two power supplies off of the 240VDC to charge my bike at its actual voltage.
I'm not going to do it, but it's an interesting possibility. Take THAT, non-compliant CHAdeMO stations!
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Based on the label for that PS, it DOES NOT take DC input. The cycle range is 47-63 hz AC which covers Europe (50hz) and North America (60hz) and substantial variance above and below. The output is 48VDC, indicating it is compatible for use with telecomms equipment that is typically on a 48VDC rail.
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Look at the data sheet, DynoMutt. It specifically states it's designed for AC or DC input.
I'm an EE that's certified lots of industrial equipment in my day, and those labels are pretty much just boilerplate -- anything out of the ordinary makes people nervous, so you wind up just going with the standard verbiage that applies. 47-63 is considered "universal" and therefore pretty much ubiquitous, but it doesn't rule out DC compatibility.
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Worth mentioning as I just checked. The RSP-2000 series also have this addition in the pdf document under INPUT
90 ~ 264VAC 127 ~ 370VDC
But it kind of defeats the purpose of CHAdeMO.
Oh look, a CHAdeMO station! Let me pull over and charge.
Huh, what? It won't accept my low voltage setting. Well I will show them, let me unhook the mains from my controller and attach them to a auxiliary panel I made for this purpose to power my two 7kw chargers since I can't seem to find any J1772 connectors and I had noting better to do than carry my external charging array with me!
HA!
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But it kind of defeats the purpose of CHAdeMO.
Oh look, a CHAdeMO station! Let me pull over and charge.
Huh, what? It won't accept my low voltage setting. Well I will show them, let me unhook the mains from my controller and attach them to a auxiliary panel I made for this purpose to power my two 7kw chargers since I can't seem to find any J1772 connectors and I had noting better to do than carry my external charging array with me!
lol...point taken, and I already said it was just interesting, not compelling enough to actually bother with. But I was thinking more along the lines of installing those power supplies as a "charge tank" sort of thing like Brandon's doing, but with two inputs, a J1772 connector for level 2 charging if a 35A+ station is available, and a CHAdeMO connector if that's what's available instead. Seems like it could be made to work with a little jiggering.
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Carrying chargers isn't going away soon. Even if I had CHAdeMO I would want to travel to roads off the beaten path.
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Does anyone have details on how to install the CHAdeMO on the 2013 bike?
I think the main issue with the installation revolved around "tricky" wiring and or placement of the relays.
I think if you can fit 7k into a tank with a J1772 and a CHAdeMO that would be great.
I suspect I will end up with 1C worth of charging when I start getting more serious about touring with the bike.
But first I am going to streamline it since the increased range is worth more than the chargers ;)
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I think if you can fit 7k into a tank with a J1772 and a CHAdeMO that would be great.
The more I think about it, the more I think it would be a pretty nice solution. The power supplies I found would actually be a 6kW charging system, but for my 2014 SR 11.4, which is actually a 10kWh battery, that's 0% to 100% in 1h 40m, which isn't bad. Even the newer 12.5 bikes with power tank would recharge in a calculated 2h 17 m from completely depleted to fully charged.
There's also nothing stopping you from adding other connectors, so you could do like Ben does, recharge from 50A 220V outlets at camping grounds or wherever you find them. Or your own garage for that matter, if you need to recharge faster than overnight.
The one thing that's stopping me from pulling the trigger right now (I'd focus on just J1772 usage at first) is that I can't find the connector on the back of that power supply anywhere. I've contacted an FAE for TE Connectivity (which bought AMP, which originally made that connector), and he tells me they're a semi-custom part, so I might just not be able to source the mate and rig anything up.
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I have a 14-50, j1772, 5-20, and 14-30 adaptor for my system. I use the 14-50 at home every day since I also made a C13 adapter as well :)
Can you just open the box up and wire your own pin out connector of choosing ?
Have you tested to see if all three would fit in your tank area plus the j1772?
Charging for an hour and fourty five minutes isn't too fun when you only get to ride an hour or less >_< I know, I have done it lol
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Can you just open the box up and wire your own pin out connector of choosing ?
Prolly, but I'd need to see inside the box to know for sure. If I decide to pull the trigger, that's the first thing I'll do...order one and give it a good look-over. At 55A, kludgy wiring isn't going to work for very long or for very well.
Have you tested to see if all three would fit in your tank area plus the j1772?
Nope. I have had the tank off, though, and the amount of space in there is pretty amazing. I'm not at all opposed to changing the shape a bit anyhow, I think the tank on the SR is really ugly. I've done a lot of fiberglass work and would enjoy making my own unique shape.
Charging for an hour and fourty five minutes isn't too fun when you only get to ride an hour or less >_< I know, I have done it lol
Better than having to charge eight hours/overnight after a single leg, though, isn't it? And it makes the lousy seat on the bike less of an issue...even with this seat, I think I could pretty easily do an hour on the bike, 1-1/2 hours off.
Also, as you said, stick some fairings on there and suddenly it's more of a 50:50 riding time:charging time ratio.
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I did a test ride on a Zero S this week and it checks all the boxes except the ChaDeMo, which is a shame because my area(the Netherlands is almost fully covered).
So I wrote to Zero HQ and the mail got forwarded to Europe HQ which then proceeded to give me a call. They explained the reasons why they got out of ChaDeMo, one of the reasons they had to make several plugs for several countries.
Wasn't the idea of ChaDeMo that they only had one universal plug for both DC and AC? Kinda got the feeling that she didn't really knew she was talking about. Anyway I did the best I could to add a little pressure to the pro-ChaDeMo camp.
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CHAdeMO is DC-Only.
This allows it to be international because the charging station can receive the local AC power and convert it to DC at the levels requested by the EV. If it also had to support AC charging, it would be subject to the local standards for AC power, which to support all of them on the EV side with the charger would increase costs. CCS supports a single inlet on the EV for AC and DC, but because of that, there are different inlets depending on which continent the EV is to be sold on.
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I meant that the vehicleside plug also can accept regular slow AC for the internal charger if I remember correctly.
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Yes, the CCS inlet accepts whatever the local AC standard is on the same inlet. That makes the CCS inlet that is installed by the manufacturer be of different physical composition depending on where the EV is sold. Since CHAdeMO is DC-only, it does not have that component that differs by continent, but of course this also means that there is no AC component at all and the local AC charger on-board has to have its own separate inlet, see the front-mounted inlets of a Nissan LEAF SL as an example of this.
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Yes I now see that I've misread the plug article on the ChaDeMo site.
But on the Zero it's not that big of a deal since the normal standard charger plug is very compact.
*continues to angrily wave fist in the general direction of California*
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Feel free to get on Facebook and tell Tony Williams (on the electric motorcycle owners group) that you are interested in CHAdeMO. He is considering making CHAdeMO for Zeros.
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I'm not on Facebook but his email is on page 2 so I might drop him a message.
Just for the fun of it I planned my work route(250km) on plugshare and the following came up:
(http://i.imgur.com/lFbJyld.jpg)
30 ChaDeMo chargers in a 10km radius, not bad at all.
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OK, I just got word from Tony Williams at QuickChargePower (www.QuickChargePower.com (http://www.QuickChargePower.com)) that he will work on making a CHAdeMO adapter for Zero Motorcycles starting at the end of the summer if he has:
10 deposits of $1,000
1 bike to use to test the charger. (He lives in San Diego)
The total price of the chargers will be $2,500 and he said that he may be able to set it up to work at all CHAdeMO stations, not just low voltage stations. It will be a high quality product. I bought a unique charging cord from him before and it is excellent.
1) Who would be willing to deposit $1,000 for a $2,500 CHAdeMO charging port?
2) Who lives in San Diego, and can possibly let him use your bike in Sept for 1-2 months? (We would all owe you a great debt of gratitude!)
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Count me for a deposit. Thanks! This is exciting.
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Ben,
Yes, count me in. Vinny
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I'm not ENTIRELY sure about spending $2500 on a system, but I am currently playing phone tag with Tony regarding using my bike for prototyping. I live in El Cajon (a suburb of San Diego) and have a 2014 SR. If we can work something out so I'm not without my baby for two months I'll probably allow him to use my bike.
And I may spring for the finished system, too. If he does a full-current solution, being able to recharge in an hour would be fantastic and really expand the capabilities of the bike.
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If the $2.5k is including installation and support, I'll go in on a deposit.
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:oOk I'm confused, how come tony Williams can build a chademo compatible adapter and zero can't ? Seems like many minds on the job (looking at you zero!)should be capable as opposed to just one guy
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Great news! I'm still a bit on the fence about waiting for what the 2016 model has to offer but for current owners this is really good.
:oOk I'm confused, how come tony Williams can build a chademo compatible adapter and zero can't ? Seems like many minds on the job (looking at you zero!)should be capable as opposed to just one guy
Zero has a perfectly fine adapter lying on their shelves, they're just not selling it right now for some obscure reasons.
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Zero has a perfectly fine adapter lying on their shelves, they're just not selling it right now for some obscure reasons.
It isn't an obscure reason. It is largely because the CHAdeMO standard isn't being followed by all manufactures / networks and thus won't work with low voltage bikes.
Many of these have a "low voltage" setting starting at 200 or 300 vDC and our bikes need to dip down to the set fourth in the CHAdeMO standard, 50 vDC .
See the response above : http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4593.msg30398;topicseen#msg30398 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4593.msg30398;topicseen#msg30398)
:oOk I'm confused, how come tony Williams can build a chademo compatible adapter and zero can't ? Seems like many minds on the job (looking at you zero!)should be capable as opposed to just one guy
I am also confused how our bikes would be able to work with chargers that start at 200vDC. I know there are some chargers you can run on DC and AC and you could spoof the voltage of the bike but that would just charge from the chargers, not the way we want through CHAdeMO. That said he has said he can do it.
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Burton,
The Blink networked CHAdeMO systems are the only ones that start at 200 volts.
Below is an except from an email my dealer received last August from Zero:
In general, we have not been able to provide an official compatibility list because there is no central testing location or methodology offered by the CHAdeMO group to ensure it. We have found incompatibilities with stations that we believe have not fully implemented the CHAdeMO specification. Usually, these related to a lack of support for voltages around 100v, which our motorcycles require, or Isolation Tests. And a specific brand of station can differ by model or even firmware revision. From our testing, we generally feel good about ABB, Fuji and Nissan stations, but Blink typically doesn't support the lower voltages. AeroVironment may be working on a firmware improvement that will help, but they have not announced a release date.
Bottom line is there are several brands of CHAdeMO systems that will work with the Zero. Look on Plugshare at the CHAdeMO systems around you and then decide.
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Zero has a perfectly fine adapter lying on their shelves, they're just not selling it right now for some obscure reasons.
It isn't an obscure reason. It is largely because the CHAdeMO standard isn't being followed by all manufactures / networks and thus won't work with low voltage bikes.
Many of these have a "low voltage" setting starting at 200 or 300 vDC and our bikes need to dip down to the set fourth in the CHAdeMO standard, 50 vDC .
See the response above : http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4593.msg30398;topicseen#msg30398 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4593.msg30398;topicseen#msg30398)
I know that two out of the five mayor charger brands have screwed up with implementing the lower voltages, but that doesn't have to spoil the party for everybody. For example, most of the chargers in the Netherlands are from ABB and should work with no problem.
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Using CHAdeMO on a Zero is going to be just like using L2 in that you have to know the model of charger you are going to connect to in order to know if it will work with your Zero. If you want to use your L2 you have to avoid GE Wattstations and PEP since they will not work. If you are going to use CHAdeMO you avoid Blink systems and be careful with Aerovironment systems. The bigger risk is that the system regardless of brand or level of charger is that it may already be in use or simply doesn't work.
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I spoke with Tony last night, and asked that very question...how is he planning on making our bikes compatible with all the stations? His answer was that 1) he wasn't sure yet, and 2) one obvious solution is to reconfigure the battery pack to BE a higher-voltage pack while charging. In other words, instead of putting the four bricks on an S/SR in parallel, rearrange them in a 2P2S configuration, and charge at 200V.
That frightens me more than a little bit; it sounds like fairly major surgery and I'm not sure I want to do it to my bike, which is doing and always has done 95% of everything I could want it to do. You'd need some extremely high-current switching devices (they would need to be able to handle 100A while charging and 660A while running, for the SR), and several of them, to reconfigure the battery pack for charging.
There probably are other solutions, but this EE can't think of any offhand. For a while I was thinking of using a power supply whose input is compatible with AC or DC, but that's not going to work because the CHAdeMO station needs to see battery voltage present before it will start providing current....no real way to do that with a power supply as "load" (other than rigging up a small battery to trick the charger into starting, or something like that).
If Tony manages to come up with a satisfying and elegant solution, he's a better engineer than I.
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I don't really know anything about the subject, but could you install a step-down transformer on the Zero, which would connect to the CHaDeMo and ask for 200V, while then stepping down that voltage to 100V (or whatever is needed) so that the Zero battery pack could be charged?
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Transformers dont work with DC, and they are big and bulky at voltages and currents involved. Using a DC to DC converter is a basically same as AC to DC charger same electronics and size. ChaDeMo is designed to go directly to battery so no on bike charging electronics is needed for high speed charging, a very elegant and simple solution. Tesla Fast Chargers are similar Technology. Zero really needs to solve this. ChaDeMo was a great product. they should have stayed with it and just listed the ones not compliant and force ChaDeMo standard to revoke their licence to those manufacturers not fully compatible. All the Japanese EV car manufacturers are compatible.
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Burton,
The Blink networked CHAdeMO systems are the only ones that start at 200 volts.
So I was partially right, I did link back to your original post with the full text just incase I messed something up :)
In 150mile radius circle around my house there are 51 CHAdeMO chargers and no BLINK or AeroVironment systems to speak of.
- 14 free chargers (mostly Nissan dealers, not sure if they would like a non-Nissan vehicle using the charger during business hours)
- 1 non-networked "pay" charger
- 5 EVgo free chargers
- 23 EVgo paid chargers (didn't look at fees)
- 4 Greenlots free chargers
- 4 Greenlots paid chargers
I looked at the NRG EVgo page to see if it was like Chargepoint in you pay for a card and you are charged based on the settings at the charger. If the charger is free then you simply swipe the card and not charge is applied. I am not sure if it works this way with EVgo as their "flex" option, requiring no monthly recurring fee, states DC charging is $4.95 / session + 20¢ min.
It seems some of the EVgo stations don't require a card according to users on plugshare and are indeed free.
There are also two levels of plans at EVgo, one is network wide and the other (fee mentioned above) is only for the "freedom stations" of which 13 exist in my area and the rest are outside the "freedom stations" network. I am not sure if these would be charged at the rate above or the "free" rate if indicated.
The Greenlots looks like it is similar to Chargepoint in execution.
Why does this have to be so difficult >_< I did manage to find this but I am still left with many questions.
http://www.plugincars.com/ultimate-guide-electric-car-charging-networks-126530.html (http://www.plugincars.com/ultimate-guide-electric-car-charging-networks-126530.html)
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Why does this have to be so difficult >_<
A lot of us are asking that exact question. The whole point of a "standard" is to get everybody doing whatever they're doing the same way, so everybody's product is compatible with everyone else's. CHAdeMO sounds great, it seems like it would cover almost all the bases (though I might quibble its 125A current limit should be higher for some vehicles with large battery packs), but some of the players aren't adhering to it. In what way does that qualify as a standard?
Look at WiFi for instance. How annoying would it be if every single computer manufacturer, every smartphone mfr, and every router mfr were doing their own thing? The only reason WiFi works is because everybody does it the same way....yes, there are flavors of WiFi, but everybody who claims 802.11(b) compliance is, in fact, compliant with that portion of the standard, and will work with any other 802.11(b) device. The reason it works is because there's a WiFi SIG (Special Interest Group, usually a consortium of manufacturers) that holds and protects the "WiFi" standard, and certifies products as compliant only after testing them to be sure they are compliant. Products that don't submit for testing and pass the tests aren't allowed to use the "WiFi" brand or say or imply compliance with the 802.11 standard. The WiFi SIG is a subset of IEEE, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, one of the largest professional societies around.
I don't know about CHAdeMO, but it really doesn't sound like there's a SIG backing the "standard", or if there is, they aren't doing their job. It seems like it's sorely needed, since clearly there is no enforcement, and therefore no real standard. As EV owners, I think we should petition the IEEE to get off their butts and start doing their job for us. If there is no SIG, they need to create one, and if there is a SIG, they need to start busting some chops and enforcing compliance. Alternatively, if CHAdeMO is too much of a mess to salvage, create a true standard that makes sense and will help push forward the process of EV adoption by the general public.
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Oh, of course I neglected to mention the whole J1772 family, which I suppose you could say is the SAE's (Society of Automotive Engineers) answer to the EV society's needs. Pretty pathetic so far, though, almost entirely focusing on AC solutions which don't move the big, heavy, hot charger off the vehicle. There are flavors that use DC, but I don't know how "official" they are as far as being true standards.
More than anything I'm jealous of Tesla's DC connector. The CHAdeMO connector is rated for 125A, most J1772 connectors are rated well below 100A, and Tesla can deliver 135kW through their connector, which at their battery voltage of 410V calculates out to 329A, with a smaller connector than CHAdeMO or J1772. How they do it, I dunno, except to point out that Elon Musk was involved in the design.
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FYI, here is what Tony Williams of QuickChargePower.com wrote on the Electric Motorcycler's Facebook page regarding charging at different voltages:
"We will reconfigure the battery to be in a "charging state" for a higher voltage. We will have to use smaller relays. Crack all the CAN messages. Learn all the limits of the battery... etc, ad nauseum.
So, again, if $2500 is too much, then it's not for you. I absolutely guarantee that our solution will work with "normal" CHAdeMO stations, and be fully vetted and tested."
His company has put together CHAdeMO chargers for the electric RAV4, which gives me confidence that he understands the stations and what is involved in putting one together that works.
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My only question is
Is the $2500 price inclusive of installation, warranty, and support?
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FAST Charging would be great. Not sure where Burton resides, but, in Las Vegas
with 2 million residents, and, Over 41 Million visitors last year, we have a total
of ONE CHAdeMO charger ( according to PLugShare ). The next closest one is
in San Bernardino. A SuperCharger or two, and, a TON of FREE J1772 chargers.
I know that DC Charging is the future, and, it would be nice to futurepoof the
bikes now, but, not very realistic. It looks like for the foreseeable future, J1772 is
the best option. They are mostly capable of 6KW~7KW, For most of us, continual
cross country riding isn't a major point. The OCCASIONAL long distance ride
would be nice. More likely to find a J1772 charger in remote area than a DC
Fast charger. A pair of 2.5KW~3.5Kw chargers would be the most balanced,
but, a nice 6~7 Kw might be more cost effective.
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I live near DC to give you perspective. We to have more than a couple j1772 connectors with the problem of them not coming in pairs so I can use two at once :/
My charging array does 51 amps with the stock charger but isn't waterproof by any means. It cost about $1200 to build and is very light weight.
Where I actually like to ride is in the mountains where there is very few j1772 and occasional 14-50's which can cost $10+ to use >_< then there are no mans lands where there is no charging at all. What keeps me out of WV is the lack of charging despite being a great place to ride ... This is why I am focusing on streamlining as well. A .5C charge rate while loads better than stock is still slow when you want to ride.
Another idea I am bouncing around is getting an fx for off-road use only then slapping the extra 5k on my SR for more range. Think of it as a Terry light modular build. I would get a larger pack for the SR and a dirt based bike to boot. It will likely cost around 1k to modify the SR to use them though.
Can the CHAdeMO adaptor be made to be more future proof? Meaning if we wanted to use it on a future bike instead of slaving it to our current ones? I know codes change with time but it would be interesting to see.
Doug what I was referring to was the different networks confusing payment plans. Also, while I love plugshare , the app has the potential for so much more given the data it has and it is frustrating not to see the features which would make this a little easier. Being a developer I often wish I had the dataset to make my own tools from >_<
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From what I've watched, I'd imagine Burton lives somewhere in the midatlantic states near the I-95 corridor.
My house is in NY state, over an hour north of New York City.
The number of CHAdeMO chargers within 30 miles of my home has gone from 0 to 2, soon to be >6 in the span of about two years.
If demand increases, the number of them will rise.
I am still very disappointed that Zero bailed on the CHAdeMO inlet option because of their experience with the providers of the first generation of CHAdeMO chargers. Having an HCL makes much more sense than dropping the feature outright, especially well after expectations were set and promises were made.
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It does not include installation, however it may be plug and play.
Burton lives in Northern Virginia near Washington, DC. Tons of CHAdeMO between him and Maine.
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Doug what I was referring to was the different networks confusing payment plans. Also, while I love plugshare , the app has the potential for so much more given the data it has and it is frustrating not to see the features which would make this a little easier. Being a developer I often wish I had the dataset to make my own tools from >_<
I'd certainly agree with that, too. Any app where you're relying on customer comments, and squinting at low-res photos trying to figure out what's going on, isn't a very well-developed app. They need to provide a LOT more specific information about charging centers.
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"We will reconfigure the battery to be in a "charging state" for a higher voltage. We will have to use smaller relays.
It does not include installation, however it may be plug and play.
Burton lives in Northern Virginia near Washington, DC. Tons of CHAdeMO between him and Maine.
That doesn't seem to match.
Personally I shouldn't bother with messing with the setup of the monoliths to adapt for the few Blink stations that don't support Zero's. If you accept that you can't charge at very few stations you more or less only need the ChaDeMo plug, the pcb that talks to the charger and the cables going to the terminals right?
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I am wondering what the price would be with a setup like Erasmo mentioned. I would rather not reconfigure the pack.
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Side note: Charging at a higher voltage should decrease the charging time but the older Zero's that had the official ChaDeMo-inlet reported charging times of less than half an hour to get to 80% so the decrease in time should be not so big.
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I know this is the 2013+ forum . . . but since my wife has a 2013 and the NY State Thruway just announced they are installing CHADEMO chargers at several rest stops . . . might be worth it to us if the charger would work with both her 2013 and my 2012.
??????
--Karl
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Based upon what I've read, the 2014 and 2015 DS/S/SR have a 100A fuse on the battery terminal line as far as I know, the fuse for that terminal on the 2013 is much lower amperage. The 2013 would have to be modified to have full charge capability.
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Side note: Charging at a higher voltage should decrease the charging time but the older Zero's that had the official ChaDeMo-inlet reported charging times of less than half an hour to get to 80% so the decrease in time should be not so big.
it is possible to achieve the same charging time with AC chargers, but then you have to carry a load of chargers with you
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Side note: Charging at a higher voltage should decrease the charging time but the older Zero's that had the official ChaDeMo-inlet reported charging times of less than half an hour to get to 80% so the decrease in time should be not so big.
it is possible to achieve the same charging time with AC chargers, but then you have to carry a load of chargers with you
Wouldn't a half hour charge be a 2C rate? To get this with an RSP stack to 90% would require at minimal 8 chargers and 3 to 4 J1772 connectors at 30 amps each. But it isn't water proof by any means lol
Based upon what I've read, the 2014 and 2015 DS/S/SR have a 100A fuse on the battery terminal line as far as I know, the fuse for that terminal on the 2013 is much lower amperage. The 2013 would have to be modified to have full charge capability.
For the 2013 you just wire your own Anderson connector to the controller and manually trip the contactor with the 100kOhm trick from existing connector. This is how I get around the 30 amp limit since I am charging at 40 through my RSP stack and 10 through the stock stack.
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We have 3 phase 22kW charge points here in Europe, Burton ;)
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We have 3 phase 22kW charge pints here in Europe, Burton ;)
Yup better known as the mennekes plug:
(http://i.imgur.com/k2geve2.jpg)
http://www.mennekes.de/uploads/media/Type2_with_Shutter_01.pdf (http://www.mennekes.de/uploads/media/Type2_with_Shutter_01.pdf)
Thats more or less the AC standard here in Europe.
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Oh, that is a big one. ;)
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Oh, that is a big one. ;)
Well they have to be able to cope with the 43kW running through it.
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Well they have to be able to cope with the 43kW running through it.
Oh, please! Tesla's supercharger connector is quite a bit smaller than that and can deliver 135kW. It's as if some of these standards bodies are making the connector gigantic on purpose for some reason.
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Well they have to be able to cope with the 43kW running through it.
Oh, please! Tesla's supercharger connector is quite a bit smaller than that and can deliver 135kW. It's as if some of these standards bodies are making the connector gigantic on purpose for some reason.
Three reasons I can think of why that would be:
-The mennekes plug is an older standard(+20 years)
-Tesla designed their plugs in-house and they only have to fit in 3-4 types of cars
-It has only three connections, two for the DC and on to chat with the car. Mennekes has more connections in their plugs en because HV leads and connections require a minimum distance the plugs get quite bulky every time you add a connection.
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Yep. All those reasons are why Tesla's solution is inherently superior. They're not trying to be all things to all people; they created a standard that achieves the goal while maximizing the resources (in this case connector space) and then design the product around that, not the other way around.
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Tesla uses the Mennekes plug in Europe and Australia for supercharging, 3 phase AC and single phase AC charging. You can also get a cheap J1772 to Mennekes adaptor and you can charge at all the J1772 stations.
So for Europe and Australia (and I would argue worldwide) the best choice for EV manufacturers would be to implement the same charging support as Tesla have done using the Mennekes plug. Once they get access to the Tesla Supercharger networks in Europe and Australia their customers will have the ultimate solution - a single plug for all charging rates and access to the widest charging network.
Chademo has failed in Australia because it is too expensive and has only been adopted overseas through government support. Because it implements a different plug it forces the manufacturers to have two inputs on the vehicle and the socket is expensive versus Mennekes. On a motorcycle you should have inexpensive sockets and ideally, only one.
If Tesla adopted the Mennekes socket in the USA it would have opened the door to shifting people across to Mennekes and away from three plugs - Tesla USA plug, J1772 and Chademo. Their cars would worked with the huge J1772 network with a low cost adaptor (as they have already implemented with their J1772 adaptor). Given the growth of the Supercharger network Tesla are making Chademo all but redundant. I doubt many people would bother buying the Tesla to Chademo adapter for over $500 given that the Supercharger network is or soon will be better in so many ways.
So why would Zero owners want to put expensive Chademo sockets on their bikes when there is patchy network coverage meaning they still need a separate L2 socket as well.
So for Zero owners I think it is better to leverage the L2 network that is in place and suffer the burden of carrying chargers whilst working out how to move onto Tesla DC charging. Buying a Chademo fast charger option saves some weight but gives minimal improvement in charge times. Zeros can handle 1C charging via a Chademo socket (75A-133A depending on your battery capacity) whilst you can push 50A/70A with two/three Elcons and your onboard charger. If you have to go out of your way to use a Chademo station, how much time are you really saving!
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evtricity, in my part of the world, CHAdeMO stations are plentiful, as are L2 stations. But you have to carry around your own (big, heavy, heat-generating) charger to use an L2 station, which is why they developed DC fast charging in the first place (to get that charger off the vehicle). If the CHAdeMO stations all worked, and probably even though they don't all work, I could get all around southern California using them without having to lug around my own L2 charger.
Supercharger looks great to me except for one thing: They're not located in the right places. They're (mostly) putting them BETWEEN large cities, with the idea that they're for people doing long cross-country trips in a vehicle with 200-mile+ range. Again, here in southern CA I'd probably be fine, but I can't venture far from here before they become too far apart to work for me. With L2 and/or CHAdeMO charging, I could refer to PlugShare and plan longer trips just because there are more of those stations around.
And, of course, nobody's got a supercharger solution available. I guess technically nobody's really got a CHAdeMO solution available either, which leaves us with L2 for now, further development of either CHAdeMo or supercharger for the future.
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FYI charging via CHAdeMO would cut a full hour off my recharging time (with 2 Elcons + the onboard charger) and they are located along the highway, thereby saving more time.
To add to this mess the CCS chargers that are beginning to pop up (for BMW, Chevy, etc) use a plug that is based on the J1772 standard with 2 extra contacts.
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I do appreciate there are time savings with Chademo in some circumstances but the percentage of "use cases" for Chademo are much lower compared to public L2 charging.
When the Chademo socket was available from Zero, few people ordered it and I would argue that even if it was still available a far greater number of people would buy and attach L2 charging support to their bikes because that is a much more plentiful infrastructure and gives the freedom that most of want - after all that's why many of us ride motorcycles in the first place, not just to ride up and down the same freeways as the cars and trucks - that's long distance/high speed commuting!
As benswing pointed out in another thread, add-on J1772 charging is an interim step.
The ideal state (at least in Europe and Australia) would be:
- single Mennekes socket
- 3.3kW or better 6.6kW onboard charger that supports 6A-30A charging so can be plugged into regular household sockets (just as Brammo did with the Eltek Valere chargers) with any L2 EVSE (portable, public, home) as per Leaf, Volt, Imiev etc
Unfortunately, in terms of fast charging, the USA as the early adopter suffers with too many different formats and it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. If Tesla were to open up their charge stations that could change things significantly as it would provide a revenue stream to Tesla to expand the Supercharger network even further. And further to Doug's point about the Supercharger's being spread wider, Zero continues to increase the range of their bikes and coupled with an ever expanding Tesla network, fast charging possibilities will open up more route options over time.
I'm very jealous at the fast charge options available in the USA but when everything is proprietary you really are forcing consumers to make an expensive gamble on which one to go with. I'd also argue that having single DC Fast chargers at each location really isn't sufficient. Tesla got it right when they put in 6 or more Superchargers at each location. Bit hard to go for a trip with your EV mates when you have to wait at the "pump" for 30-60 minutes for each of you to fill up!
Sometimes it's better to just accept the limitations of L2 and save your fast charging money to be spent later when the winner becomes obvious.
Having said that I think we should lobby Zero to put a 3.3/6.6kW J1772/Mennekes charger on our bikes. It should be an option instead of the PowerTank and I've no doubt that the tank could support that size charger and incorporate ventilation as well.
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Well they have to be able to cope with the 43kW running through it.
Oh, please! Tesla's supercharger connector is quite a bit smaller than that and can deliver 135kW. It's as if some of these standards bodies are making the connector gigantic on purpose for some reason.
In Europe, the Tesla chargers has the 'Mennekes' connector, too.
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@evtricity: It's all a matter of regions and their preferred standards. For example take the J1772 plug, while it may be plentiful in the States here in the Netherlands we have a mind boggling amount of 4 J1772 chargers because Mennekes is the standard for normal charging here. And although Mennekes is not bad ChaDeMo is better because it slashes loading times to 20-30 minutes and you don't have to haul a topcase with 20kg of chargers that cost several thousand dollars.
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I'm not on Facebook so I can't follow the events there but does somebody know how the progress is?
Did enough people apply? Are the wanted after features released?
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Haven't seen any updates in the Facebook thread since May 16th.
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The last thing I heard was that quick charge power was going to set up a deposit on their website. I don't see it right now, but it should appear sometime soon.
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@evtricity: It's all a matter of regions and their preferred standards. For example take the J1772 plug, while it may be plentiful in the States here in the Netherlands we have a mind boggling amount of 4 J1772 chargers because Mennekes is the standard for normal charging here. And although Mennekes is not bad ChaDeMo is better because it slashes loading times to 20-30 minutes and you don't have to haul a topcase with 20kg of chargers that cost several thousand dollars.
If Zero can use the Tesla DC fast charging via Mennekes plug ie. in Europe and Australia, then they have a cheaper and smaller solution than Chademo and a rapidly increasing network in the Tesla superchargers and can still plug into J1772 or Mennekes for L2 charging. Chademo is at best losing or at worst dying in Europe and Australia.
Appreciate the value of Chademo for those in the USA with the current subsidised installations but can't see how Chademo is going to win out anywhere but Japan in 5 years time.
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Yeah CCS is probably going to win out in Europe. Especially as its an extension of the Type2 charging system.
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Yeah CCS is probably going to win out in Europe. Especially as its an extension of the Type2 charging system.
The J1772 plug is a truly rare sight on mainland Europe. For example there are just 4 in the whole Netherlands.
But most fast chargers that are being installed have both CCS and ChaDeMo, probably from the same power source. By simply adding a plug and interface board or whatnot you make a charger a whole lot more functional for a small price.
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Having read this whole thread I think something may have been missed.
I have a Nissan Leaf in the centre of England and I have given up using public L2 charging in favour of Chademo. L2 is destination charging only so only fine if you want to be there for hours but even then you might turn up and find it occupied by someone who can be there for any length of time as it is a parking space with a charging facility so you can't rely on it ever.
Chademo is a rapid charging space which happens to have somewhere to park so as long as the charger works you should be able to use it, even if it means a shortish wait which can often be minimised by discussion as the other vehicle owner shouldn't be far away either in distance or time.
Where Chademo chargers are doubled up, even if that means only one charger each side of the freeway/motorway, access and reliability improve dramatically. Nissan and *Renault electric cars have a back up plan which is free flatbed trailer recovery to the nearest working charger or home. *Not applicable to Renault EVs if not on expensive battery lease agreement to be clear.
Now to Zero, as a 35 year long biker engineer I have test driven all the 2015 models on a short run recently and was thinking the DS would best suit my location on small uneven country roads miles away from a big town.
Only when I realised that Chademo was no longer a factory option did I drop that idea in favour of the Zero FX as home charging only means no long bike rides out of range without relying on night time stop over recharging on any of their models.
I suspect Zero know they are losing sales without Chademo and there is a reason that they dropped Chademo and just maybe it wasn't just because of the unfinished Chademo standard.
Not just the motor but the battery heats up whilst discharging. The faster the discharge the faster it heats up. Add rapid re-charging and that means more heat in to the battery pack and also less time for the motor and battery to cool down through conduction and convection.
If you can charge faster you will be tempted to both ride faster and go further needing more charges and soon the motor overheat power down restriction will become a regular occurence. More important the battery warranty which, as I understand it, is age and mileage based only, could well be be the subject of expensive to fix warranty claims which would pile future motor and battery liabilities on to Zero which I don't believe they can afford to risk especially with the current buy back scheme being recently implemented.
Their original battery packs were white coloured externally right? Now they are fashionably distinctive and black coloured so there is the added solar load that a black surface absorbs for them to consider as well.
After multiple rapid charges in succession and high speed motorway driving from one charger to the next several UK Leafs have refused to charge at the full rate or at all due to thermal overload even in our moderate climate! I haven't experienced this but I have seen a max temp of 48 Celcius or 118.4 Farenheit in our Leaf where the battery cells are in shade in a metal case under the car and better spread out and so have less concentrated thermal mass than the Zero and no possibility of direct solar heating. The Leaf has a watercooled 80kW motor in the airflow under the car. Zero motor is up to 50kW air cooled only but with next to no airflow!
I would be very interested to hear from anyone with a large Zero battery pack equipped with Chademo about their experiences of thermal overload of motor and/or battery. How many back to back charging & riding sessions have you successfully done on a sunny summer's day? Meanwhile I am firmly sat on the fence as I can't afford a lemon as there are no dealers or repairers willing to commit to warranty work in the UK right now despite what you may have heard.
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I'm digging up this thread because I don't want to create confusion with the Diginow charger from the other one. I found a company in Amsterdam that has successfully installed a ChaDeMo on a converted Volkswagen T2 and do a lot of work with powertrains etc.
They say that they might pull of a charging inlet that speaks ChaDeMo if there's enough space on the bike.
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ChaDeMo is nice, but in my opinion not the future. Are there plans on bringing other fast charging solutions to the Zero motorcycles like the Combo1/US or Combo2/Euro standard?
Peter.
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I believe the makers of the DigiNow charger plan to incorporate functionality with CCS and CHAdeMO in the future.
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The diginow charger is a really nice thing but if all you need is ChaDeMo an inlet is cheaper and lighter. If in a year or ten the charger wars finally end and you still ride your Zero you can always change it if needed, shouldn't be that big of an operation.
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The diginow charger is a really nice thing but if all you need is ChaDeMo an inlet is cheaper and lighter. If in a year or ten the charger wars finally end and you still ride your Zero you can always change it if needed, shouldn't be that big of an operation.
The problem is the group that controls the CHAdeMO spec don't do a good job of enforcing compliance with the spec. As a result, a lot of CHAdeMO charging stations don't support the lower voltages required for Zero bikes. The DigiNow charger with the upcoming CHAdeMO adapter will solve this by doing a DC-DC conversion from the higher voltages from the charger to the lower voltage needed by the bike.
It's a workaround for sure but an effective one until the charging infrastructure gets more standardized.
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