ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Alan. Yes THAT Alan on December 10, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
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I haven't ridden my 2011 S for a few weeks. Today was nice and I took it out. Between 29 MPH and 35 MPH, the motorcycle coughs and sputters for a second, like it's having trouble getting gas, and then it loses all power. The throttle won't respond. There are no noises, so I know this is something electrical, not mechanical.
As the speed drifts down to around 25 MPH, the throttle is able to respond again, and I can resume my trip. My Zero has never done this before.
Sometimes, the dashboard light flashes a 1,3 error code and sometimes it doesn't flash at all.
Here's what I've done so far:
- The manual says that the 1,3 error is throttle-related. It says to "verify throttle action and/or check connection."
- With the wheels jacked off the ground, I'm able to run the motorcycle throttle up and down with no problem. The rear wheel spins freely and the speedometer quickly goes up to 68, with no coughing or sputtering at all. Throttle action is good.
- I checked the connection where the throttle wires plug into the other wires. It's tight. I unplugged and re-plugged them. Went for a test ride and still doing the same thing.
I noticed that the male end of the connection (coming from the throttle grip) has two pins inside. But looking at the female end of the connection, there are four wires going off to someplace under the 'gas tank'. Is this normal? Why would two wires go into a connection, but four wires come out of it? What do the other two wires do?
I'm stuck. What's causing this sputtering and loss of power? If it's not the throttle or its connection, what else should I look at? Since the problem only happens when I'm riding and not in my garage, could it be a loose wire somewhere, that is vibrating loose around 30 MPH? If so, where?
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Maybe you can check the throttle resistance using a controller or a scope - with time it is possible that it is not working as it should...
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Maybe you can check the throttle resistance using a controller or a scope...
The throttle and everything else work great when I have the motorcycle lifted off the floor, in my garage. The tire spins fine and the speed goes up with no problem.
The trouble only comes when I ride on it. With weight and wind resistance, the motorcycle only accelerates to 30 MPH or so before it shuts off. It's acting like it can't supply the amps needed to turn the motor under a heavy load. Again, it's never done this before and I don't know where to begin looking.
If it gives the 1,3 throttle-unplugged error and the throttle is working fine, then where else can the problem be?
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If it works well when off the ground but not under load,
maybe you don't notice the lack of smoothness, maybe
the throttle doesn't get into the problematic zone.
IIRC throttles of that era were resistive, not hall effect,
and thus more subject to contamination problems. Zero
sent me a new throttle for my 2011 S, years ago, when
I contacted them about it continuing to pull a bit when
fully stopped. (I no longer have that bike)
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Zero also replaced the throttle assembly on my early-build 2012 S, when it started having stalling issues after coming to a stop for more than a minute. Once the throttle was replaced with the new part, I never had another stalling problem.
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Guys,
Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad other people have had similar problems with their Zeros, too. This morning I called Zero and told them about the problem I just started having and how it is too unsafe for me to ride on the roads. An hour later, an electrical engineer at Zero sent me this email:
"Unfortunately, official support of 2011 model motorcycles has ended, and I am unable to assist you in this issue... Many of the parts used in 2011 have been obsoleted by their manufacturers, and we are no longer able to get more inventory..."
5,000 miles and it quits working, with no support from the clowns who made it? Looks like I'll be selling my Zero, never buying another one, and sticking to dependable Japanese motorcycle from now on.
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Guys,
Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad other people have had similar problems with their Zeros, too. This morning I called Zero and told them about the problem I just started having and how it is too unsafe for me to ride on the roads. An hour later, an electrical engineer at Zero sent me this email:
"Unfortunately, official support of 2011 model motorcycles has ended, and I am unable to assist you in this issue... Many of the parts used in 2011 have been obsoleted by their manufacturers, and we are no longer able to get more inventory..."
5,000 miles and it quits working, with no support from the clowns who made it? Looks like I'll be selling my Zero, never buying another one, and sticking to dependable Japanese motorcycle from now on.
With older electric motorcycles, like my first two Electric Motorsport GPR-S bikes (more dead ducks), it is sometimes the best plan to use the chassis and build your own power train from off the shelf-or-used components like they do at the DIY elmoto forum. Apparently used Leaf batteries are well regarded and most other components are available commercially to build or rebuild an electric motorcycle, if you have some basic knowledge or (like I did) a friend that is an electrical engineer, or the equivalent.
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https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Magura_Throttle
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Advanced_Modifications#Throttle_Upgrade
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Original poster again...
I checked the resistance of the throttle. It's good.
I also checked the motor controller. It seems good: solid green light at start-up, motor spins to 71MPH (in my garage, wheels off the floor), I logged into the controller via my laptop.
While I was looking around at the controller, I thought the 3 flat pins on the back were slightly corroded, so I used an emery board to shine them up. Plugged everything up tight and went for a test ride. Finally!! I was able to accelerate beyond 35 MPH, just like in the old days!
However, at 45MPH, the entire motorcycle died. No response from the throttle at all; dashboard was completely blacked out. It felt like somebody had suddenly disconnected the battery. I coasted to a stop on the side of the road, turned off the key, and immediately turned it right back on. Everything booted up normally, as if nothing had happened. I drove the motorcycle home with no problems, although I kept it below 20 MPH to be safe.
New problem. What would make the whole motorcycle shut off like that? It has never done that to me before. Has anybody else had this problem? If so, what was the solution? I can't find anything in the user manual about this. This vehicle is unsafe and Zero refuses to take any kind of ownership for their construction.
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I'm guessing that your battery is worn out and the voltage sags as your speed increases. One of the components then shuts down the system.
You could test this theory by hooking up a voltage display to see what the battery is doing when you accelerate
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You could test this theory by hooking up a voltage display to see what the battery is doing...
How? Where?
I think this fixed one of the problems, but not exactly sure which one: On the port side of the motorcycle, I can see what looks like a square-shaped donut. One of the cables that connects the motor controller to the motor runs though that donut. Attached to the donut, there is a little plug with 2 wires. The plug does not snap or click into place; it just slides into place. I tugged it and it slide right off. Maybe when I'm riding the motorcycle, that little plug vibrates loose and the motorcycle dies. So I zip-tied it all over the place, to keep it in there tight. The motorcycle hasn't died since then.
HOWEVER...
today today the motorcycle started acting up again. It accelerates smoothly until about 40 MPH, and then it dies and the throttle stops responding. The little red light flashes 1,3. I have to let off the throttle, wait for a few seconds while the motorcycle slows down and cars honk, and then the throttle will work again. I just now re-tested the throttle's resistance and I get a range of 0 to 5.58K ohms.
Questions:
1) Has anybody besides me ever gotten the 1,3 code (which, according the the manual, is related to throttle)? If so, was there any way to fix it?
2) If so, how was it fixed?
3) I know the throttle should be 0 to 5K ohms, but is it a problem that my throttle goes up to 5.58K ohms?
Grrrrrr! For a motorcycle that uses "maintenance-free" as a selling point, I sure to spend a lot of time doing maintenance on it. Guess the clowns at Zero have never heard of a 1980s Honda; that's maintenance-free.
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> > You could test this theory by hooking up a voltage display to see what the battery is doing...
> How? Where?
Well, there are levels. Cell balance would be good.
But as a starting point, a DC voltmeter would be good. Not the handheld probe kind, but the panel kind, so they are visble while riding. I've got voltmeter by my display, powered from battery power under the seat (with 1/4 amp fuses on both +B and -B). There's also battery power at the DC-DC, but it's always-on power, which would make your display a "vampire drain" when bike is off.
After that, if that doesn't give you enough info, noncontact DC ammeter would be my next step.
Hope that helps.
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Am I the only sucker who ever made the mistake of buying a Zero? I have seen one Zero motorcycle in my life, and it's the one that I own.
I'd like to hear from somebody else who has a 2011 Zero, especially if they've ever gotten that 1,3 code on the dashboard.
What does it mean (I know what the manual says, but what's REALLY broken here?) Did you fix the problem? How? Is it a problem that my throttle goes up to 5.58K ohms?
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Am I the only sucker who ever made the mistake of buying a Zero? I have seen one Zero motorcycle in my life, and it's the one that I own.
I'd like to hear from somebody else who has a 2011 Zero, especially if they've ever gotten that 1,3 code on the dashboard.
What does it mean (I know what the manual says, but what's REALLY broken here?) Did you fix the problem? How? Is it a problem that my throttle goes up to 5.58K ohms?
If you didn't recognize the inherent risk in adopting bleeding edge technology, if you expected a bike (electric or otherwise) to stay trouble-free indefinitely, if you believe the sum total of all your experiences with the electric bike experience were not worth the investment, then yes you made a mistake. Or maybe the mistake was in not upgrading for 7 years?
Sorry, I can sympathize with the current 35MPH problem, but you can fix it if you want to spend the time/money. My KTM made it 4 years before the engine blew and I paid to fix it. My BMW 540i made it 75,000 miles before incurring more maintenance cost than it's worth, but I'm in the middle of fixing that too.
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Buy this, install it and see if it makes a difference.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Magura-Twist-Grip-Throttle-0-5k-ohms/273407351484?hash=item3fa8591abc:g:3jkAAMXQ-KRRgOfF:rk:3:pf:0
while you wait for shipping etc, see if you can duplicate the issue with the bike on the stand by adding load to the motor with the rear brake. You might have to disconnect (or jumper) the brake switch to fool the software
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Pre-2013 Zeros were small-batch designs, each year different.
They also used brushed DC motors which to me (former Navy electrician) is a risk.
I'm sorry you're having trouble, but a Magura throttle replacement as suggested above is straightforward, and electrical cable connections do need maintenance over time, and this is why I maintain zeromanual.com
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> Am I the only sucker who ever made the mistake of buying a Zero? ...
Haha, my 2011 Zero S had me thinking the same thing. It could go freeway,
but it could not go anywhere near the rated 45-58 miles (going 35 miles to
Fremont once a week, even with the gentlest non-freeway riding, failed consistenly,
and I had to push it off the Bay Bridge once, and got close a couple more times).
Eventually, Zero offered the "early adopter trade in rebate" and I used that credit for
a 2014 SR at the end of 2015, intending to flip it, but it's so much better that I kept it.
I will continue to caution people against getting pre-2013 Zero motorcycles.
And I feel for you, Alan, I have felt some of your frustration.
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Update with new problems.
I ordered the $65 replacement throttle and it arrived yesterday. I measured it and it goes from 0.03 to 5.6K ohms. I spent all day putting the new throttle on my Zero and... nothing. Just a CLICK sound when I twist the throttle. I put the old throttle back on, and the same thing occurs. No red lights on the dashboard, just a sound like a relay clicking somewhere in the belly of this motorcycle. The motor never even tries to spin.
I logged into the AXE controller and everything looks OK there. But I did notice that after the initial green blink, its LED is flashing 3 red (something it's never done before). The manual says that means "Throttle hasn't gone to zero during this power on cycle."
I unplugged the 2 throttle wires that go to the controller and clipped my ohmmeter to them. When I turn on the Zero and twist the throttle, the ohmmeter only goes up to about 1K, then suddenly goes to infinity and I hear that CLICK noise again. I hit the kill switch, ohmmeter goes back down to near zero, hit the kill switch again, twist the throttle, and CLICK, ohmmeter jumps back to infinity. The AXE controller is never given a chance to do its thing.
The AXE controller seems good. The old and new throttles are both good. The two throttle wires don't attach directly to the AXE controller; they go into Mysteryland someplace under the 'gas tank', and then two other wires come out from Mysteryland and attach to the AXE controller. That in-between-place is where the problem lies.
What is in between those two pairs of wires? What broke in there? Does something need resetting? Replacing? Repairing? How do I get to it? What do I look for?
I hate Zero.
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I have a 2010 S so not exactly the same setup. The "Click" as I understand it, is the 12V system being enabled. If you're getting the "click" that should mean that the Main Bike Board (the bike computer) passed its checks.
So, to me it seems like the current issue is at the AXE controller.
If the AXE controller is flashing red with that code, it could be because the throttle never goes fully to 0? You mentioned the lowest being 0.03. I don't know how sensitive the AXE are, but I'd try to make sure the throttle can go to zero.
Note: Your old issue with that sensor not clipping in would definitely cause the bike to shut down if you hit a bump and it came loose. I would think it's the motor temperature sensor? If it looks like https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*EByP2kS-xZwclxbFhX-7mA.jpeg (https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*EByP2kS-xZwclxbFhX-7mA.jpeg) (without the extra sensor sticking out of the plug) then it was the temperature sensor (assuming its the same as the 2010)
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The "Click" as I understand it, is the 12V system being enabled. If you're getting the "click" that should mean that the Main Bike Board (the bike computer) passed its checks.
No. Everything boots up and passes. It's not a bootup 'click'. It's a relay 'CLICK'. It happens as soon as the computer's output ohms go to infinity. Again, the AXE controller is not being given the throttle resistance that it needs to work.
I suspect that somehow the Main Bike Board has an error. Does anybody know if these can fail? Are they replaceable? Are they repairable?
I hate Zero.
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Looks like you can disable that error check if you connect to the AXE serial port. https://alltraxinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Doc120-053-A_TN013-AXE-NPX-Troubleshooting-Guide.pdf (https://alltraxinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Doc120-053-A_TN013-AXE-NPX-Troubleshooting-Guide.pdf)
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Looks like you can disable that error check if you connect to the AXE serial port.
I unplugged the 2 throttle wires that go into the controller and clipped my ohmmeter to them. When I turn on the Zero and twist the throttle, the ohmmeter only goes up to about 1K, then suddenly goes to infinity and I hear that CLICK noise again. The 'throttle' wires are NOT plugged into the AXE controller; they are connected to my ohmmeter. The problem is not with the controller. It is bypassed during this troubleshooting. NOT the controller.
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Are you measuring the circuit voltage or ohms? You typically wouldn't use an ohm meter on a powered circuit it would not give you any useful information. Probably wouldn't hurt anything in the electronics but IDK maybe it could blow an input component. You should try voltage measurements. Resistance is fine for wires and switches that are not under power but that's about it.
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Update: My Zero hasn't given me that 1-3 code for several months and it's been running mostly well. It still accelerates at full-throttle, no matter how much throttle I actually give it, but at least it isn't stalling at 35 MPH any more. (2 weeks ago, I had it up to 69 MPH; a new record for me.)
The only difference between when I first started this post and now is the temperature outside. It's in the mid 90s every day and the motorcycle is running great. But back when it was in 60s (Texas winter), the Zero kept dying on me. Fortunately, south Texas has a really long, hot summer and really short winter, so the bad MCC is just a part-time inconvenience right now.
I know the problem is still in the black box, the MCC. For whatever reason, something inside it is worn out and the hot weather is keeping it running for now. I don't know where to get another MCC. I tried contacting Zero several times and they refuse to acknowledge their faulty product that fails after only 5,000 miles.
I hate Zero.
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Solved it!
The problem was not the throttle. I tried 3 different throttles, and they all gave that 1-3 flash code.
The problem was in the wiring that the throttle plugs into. Somewhere in that harness, there is an intermittent short. If the harness is pulled to the port side of the motorcycle (where it plugs into the throttle), the error comes and goes. But when I shoved the wiring harness to the starboard side, then secured it all with a zip-tie, everything works great.
All this trouble fixed with a little zip-tie.
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Good to hear!
You probably still have an intermittent connection or short somewhere, I guess, but you are past it for now. : - )