ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Lightning => Topic started by: JaimeC on August 28, 2019, 02:20:25 AM
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Not a word on when they'll actually begin shipping the Strike.
https://electricmotorcycles.news/lightning-motorcycles-advancing-the-future-and-interview-with-richard-hatfield/
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This kind of reporting, similar to the descriptions of the LiveWire in many press outlets, really irks me. No hard questions, no fact checking:
"My goal is to see Lightning Motorcycles everywhere. I want to see Lightning Motorcycles in front of stores, restaurants and streets everywhere."
If that's true, then why no bike, no dealers, no demo rides?
"A distributor must create a good network in the country or the area with strong after sales/customer support. Ideally, importer/dealer should already be experienced and successful in distributing motorcycles."
This sounds good but again, where are the dealers? They don't exist and you're not going to achieve the first goal without a dealer network, whether external (like ICE brands) or internal (like Tesla).
...and the kicker:
"Will you be ready once the Japanese big4 decides to enter in electric motorcycle market?
Yes we are. And I think we do actually have the technology and the resources equivalent to what they have at his moment. With AI, we do not need large numbers of engineers to design new parts. Even more, we have the records and experiences on the road with customers. So we are, may be a very little but, ahead of them. I am waiting for them to get in the market!"
How can you claim equivalency when your product you're touting (the Strike) lacks even the basic features most bikes, ICE or Electric are coming with (traction control, ABS, rider modes)? Not to mention his claim of having records and experiences on the road with customers. What customers? Certainly not Lightning's since as has been posted before no one's heard of anyone actually owning one. This circles back to the first quote above, wanting to see Lightning's everywhere...on every street and in front of every shop?
As much as I want Lightning to succeed, you don't succeed when you don't address your faults. Like I've posted in other threads, this whole Strike launch really smacks of the original Skully fiasco.
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Hey this article is a great find! I am intrigued by this photo in particular:
(https://electricmotorcycles.news/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Lightning_motorcycles_Richard_Hatfield_9.jpg)
That's a standard J1772 inlet, not CCS or anything special. What's really interesting is that if you zoom in on the open house pictures from last month is it wasn't there. No wonder they didn't have any demo rides; they probably had no way to charge the bike. And now it's just sort of half-assed hacked onto the plate next to the motor.
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I didn't know we had a joke section in the Electric Motorcycle Forum. ::) Let me know if you want me to post some of my jokes, too. ;)
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Richard, This is good for a laugh: "Lightning Motorcycles is one of the pioneers, survivors and, most of all, one of the most successful manufacturers in the electric motorcycle world". And we think they have sold how many bikes????? LOL!!!
This article and Lightning's web site is all about the LS-218. Still nothing about the Strike. The Strike may be the greatest electric motorcycle of all time but no one knows anything about it and Richard doesn't seem interested in changing that dynamic any time soon. To sum up Lightning electric motorcycles in one word: Sad.
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I still think they're missing a great promotional opportunity: Anyone pre-ordering a Strike will get a color-matched Skully helmet thrown in for free...
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I still think they're missing a great promotional opportunity: Anyone pre-ordering a Strike will get a color-matched Skully helmet thrown in for free...
;D
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It doesn't look production-ready at all.
I love how the author of the article shills for Lightning and doesn't ask about delivery dates.
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It doesn't look production-ready at all.
I love how the author of the article shills for Lightning and doesn't ask about delivery dates.
It is amazing what a free lunch and a few alcoholic drinks will do to an interviewer's list of pointed questions and memory of the replies. ::)
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I didn't know we had a joke section in the Electric Motorcycle Forum. ::) Let me know if you want me to post some of my jokes, too. ;)
uh, the internet has sorta become a joke. Fake news and all. Anyone can post anything. Again, and again, and again until it seems real. I laugh.
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Butch didn't you say you rode a Strike?
I've seen the picture of the CA factory. What is in it? Any cars for workers in the parking lot?
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This kind of reporting, similar to the descriptions of the LiveWire in many press outlets, really irks me. No hard questions, no fact checking:
Critics of the current woke Hollywood refer to it as the "Shill Media" because so much is just an extension of advertising rather than reporting.
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I think there's a place for the press to publish "press releases" from companies, especially credible companies that do release new products. But there's also a critical need for actual news stories, fact-finding missions and exposes. But all you have to do is count how many times the word "Kardashian" appears on the Yahoo front page to know which way the press has gone these days.
I don't actually blame the news organizations -- they're just publishing what makes them money, which means what people will read and will push advertising dollars. The American public has once again made our own bed to sleep in.
But that sound you hear is Woodward and Bernstein turning over in their graves.
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I think there's a place for the press to publish "press releases" from companies, especially credible companies that do release new products. But there's also a critical need for actual news stories, fact-finding missions and exposes. But all you have to do is count how many times the word "Kardashian" appears on the Yahoo front page to know which way the press has gone these days.
I don't actually blame the news organizations -- they're just publishing what makes them money, which means what people will read and will push advertising dollars. The American public has once again made our own bed to sleep in.
But that sound you hear is Woodward and Bernstein turning over in their graves.
In other-words, news is no longer based upon facts, but upon its entertainment value. :(
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I've reported this multiple times in multiple forums. In the US (at least), all news corporations belong to publicly-traded corporations. We have the most f***-ed up form of capitalism here because by SEC LAW, the primary objective of any publicly-traded corporation is to maximize shareholder value. That's IT. Profit by any means necessary.
So, how does a news company maximize shareholder value? By publishing stories people WANT to read. Why do you think the 2016 news cycle was all about Hillary's E-Mails and NOT about the rampant corruption that could actually be found throughout Trump's various organizations? Because that's what people WANTED to read about.
If people see a story they WANT to read, they'll click on the article, or buy the newspaper. The more popular the topic, the more "clicks" or papers they sell. If the media company can prove they attract a lot of eyeballs, then they can charge more for their ad space. Selling ad space is where they REALLY made their money.
By the way, this is the primary reason I DON'T want Zero to ever become a publicly-traded corporation. I'd rather they concentrate on their product and NOT on how to fatten the wallets of their investors. But that's just me, YMMV.
For more information on this topic, see:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/28/maximizing-shareholder-value-the-dumbest-idea-in-the-world/#382763722870
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd0p96miSK8
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Richard Hatfield just announced the first Strike delivery.
Anyone one this forum?
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Where is the announcement?
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Did they actually deliver a bike without any press rides, video, or marketing?
WTF?
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To a guy who apparently is blocking all friend requests.
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So somewhere, somehow a Lightning Strike was built and now supposedly delivered to a customer. I guess that means Lightning is still in the boutique bike business and no desire to become a main stream motorcycle manufacturer. It seems if there was an actual production line somewhere that was building Strikes there would be a lot of them for inventory to be bought on the spot. The first delivery of a Strike could be a huge press event. Instead there is minimal information about it which makes me wonder if it really happened or was everything faked.
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Well we know they had 3 Strikes that were shown at the (non) event a few months back. One of those 3 was white, and the pictures they posted just recently were of the white one. If it is the same bike it was shown with a bolted-on J1772 inlet for charging pointed in a way that it will fill up with water when wet, and no CCS. If that bike doesn't show up for any more promotional events it's a safe bet it was the one delivered.
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I expect folks here have seen the recent posts (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=8537) by new user Jayski?
If not, worth reading. He identifies as an actual LS-218 owner (the first I've ever encountered on this forum or elsewhere), who bought the bike for racing purposes (e.g., Land Speed record).
However, his bike is a 1-off custom build (custom motor, 750V battery system) especially done by Lightning over a year, and doesn't have a full legal light setup; I therefore wouldn't call it a production bike.
Jayski sounds very happy with the bike, but from his experiences it certainly sounds that Lightning isn't focused on actually producing motorcycles for the public.
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No one has ever claimed Lightning isn't capable of making an utterly amazing custom race bike. Production? Maybe not so much. Custom 1-offs seem to be their thing.
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It really couldn't be more disappointing. I'm getting to the point where I'm just starting to toy with the idea of upgrading my venerable 2014 SR, and I'd figured the topography would have changed considerably by now.
But so far, Harley and Lightning are still vaporware (and Harley's still Harley), so no joy there. The SS9 looks close to being the bike I'm going to want for the next several years, but the nearest place for me to get service for an Energica is 100 miles away, and I'm not seeing a lot of improvement on the horizon. I know that's much better than most people are "blessed" with, but it's still a pretty long and expensive tow if something breaks down that I don't have the ability to address myself. Even if I have the skillz, can I get the parts?
Obviously, building a dealer/distribution network from scratch is incredibly difficult, let alone the rest of the infrastructure. It makes what Tesla's done even more impressive in retrospect.
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It really couldn't be more disappointing. I'm getting to the point where I'm just starting to toy with the idea of upgrading my venerable 2014 SR, and I'd figured the topography would have changed considerably by now.
But so far, Harley and Lightning are still vaporware (and Harley's still Harley), so no joy there. The SS9 looks close to being the bike I'm going to want for the next several years, but the nearest place for me to get service for an Energica is 100 miles away, and I'm not seeing a lot of improvement on the horizon. I know that's much better than most people are "blessed" with, but it's still a pretty long and expensive tow if something breaks down that I don't have the ability to address myself. Even if I have the skillz, can I get the parts?
Obviously, building a dealer/distribution network from scratch is incredibly difficult, let alone the rest of the infrastructure. It makes what Tesla's done even more impressive in retrospect.
I get where your coming from and i'm by no means a Harley fan boy, but idk if I would consider the livewire vaporware at this point. There are at least a few videos out there of people riding livewires at demo events on the street, where multiple livewires can be seen. There have been several articles of people actually riding them on a track, and if you take a look at their site there are several demo events scheduled around the country (USA), some of which have already passed. All 3 of my local dealers have also installed CCS stations, so I have no doubt they will be here in a month or so. None, not any of that can be said for the Strike.
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Also Doug I don't know if you've been paying attention to the leaks about Energicas recently but the word coming through the grapevine is that ~20kWh pack upgrades are imminent. This makes sense because the last pack upgrade was 2014. And they're still $10k cheaper than the LiveWire.
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Also Doug I don't know if you've been paying attention to the leaks about Energicas recently but the word coming through the grapevine is that ~20kWh pack upgrades are imminent. This makes sense because the last pack upgrade was 2014. And they're still $10k cheaper than the LiveWire.
Well assuming the 20kWh packs are going to happen (and I agree, the recent camo spy photos are suggestive), we don't know how Energica will price them; they might be far more expensive than the current models (and they may keep some of the latter as lower-priced, lower-range versions, like Zero is still selling the SR).
I do hope Energica will upgrade the packs soon -- they seem the most polished and detail-oriented of the current vendors (e.g., parking brake, reverse/forward crawl mode, CCS), with the tw omain issues being range and weight.
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Where is the announcement?
On f-book.
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I do hope Energica will upgrade the packs soon -- they seem the most polished and detail-oriented of the current vendors (e.g., parking brake, reverse/forward crawl mode, CCS), with the tw omain issues being range and weight.
What parking brake?
BTW, to me the size of the battery pack is rather meaningless as long as I am within range of CCS charging. A battery twice the size means wait twice as long for it to charge--but at half as many stops. Comes out near the same either way.
-Don- Reno, NV
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...A battery twice the size means wait twice as long for it to charge...
-Don- Reno, NV
Don so that's technically not true...
Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.
Let's say the cells used can be charged at 2c (that's a charge rate 2x the capacity of the total pack).
A 10kWh pack would be able to charge at a rate of 20kWh (2*10), at 20kWh a 10kWh pack would be recharged in 30 minutes
A 20kWh pack would be able to charge at a rate of 40kWh (2*20), at 40kWh a 20kWh pack would also be recharged in 30 minutes.
*The above is a generalization and assumes the cells are the same and that packs do not charge slower from 0-10 and 90-100%.
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Don so that's technically not true...
Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.
Of course, I was talking about the same charge rate with each. IOW, only the battery is changed, not the charger. They don't always go together. Take the HD LW for an example. It has a larger battery than my SS9 but a smaller charger. So with the LW, the wait is a lot longer than my SS9 for a full charge. Also the HD won't get the same MPH of charge.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I do hope Energica will upgrade the packs soon -- they seem the most polished and detail-oriented of the current vendors (e.g., parking brake, reverse/forward crawl mode, CCS), with the tw omain issues being range and weight.
What parking brake?
It's my understanding that on Energicas (have yet to see one in the flesh), engaging the sidestand also automatically mechanically engages the rear disc brake, which I thought was a nice idea. Maybe it's not on all models?
BTW, to me the size of the battery pack is rather meaningless as long as I am within range of CCS charging. A battery twice the size means wait twice as long for it to charge--but at half as many stops. Comes out near the same either way.
Problem is, CCS charging is mostly available on major freeways, and likely to remain that way since DC chargers are expensive and need lots of through traffic to justify them.
When riding day trips (sport-touring's my preferred style), I tend to avoid highways completely, except if necessary to get to the good bits (what we call here "administrative riding" :) ).
I live in the middle of a dense urban area; a typical 300-400mi day ride for me consists of probably 100-200mi on freeways, with the rest on small backroads, mostly without even gasoline stations. Range is a big issue, and the max reasonable charging stops on such a day is two short 30min ones, plus one longer ~1hr one during lunch.
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It's my understanding that on Energicas (have yet to see one in the flesh), engaging the sidestand also automatically mechanically engages the rear disc brake, which I thought was a nice idea. Maybe it's not on all models?
Not on my 2020 Energica Eva EsseEsse9. I cannot speak for the others.
Problem is, CCS charging is mostly available on major freeways, and likely to remain that way since DC chargers are expensive and need lots of through traffic to justify them.
Did you realize that CCS vehicles can also use J1772 AC (@ 3KW on my SS9, but 25 KW on DC CCS)?
When riding day trips (sport-touring's my preferred style), I tend to avoid highways completely, except if necessary to get to the good bits (what we call here "administrative riding" :) ).
I prefer my SS9 when on the freeway a lot and my Zeros when not. The SS9 is a great bike to get me between here in Reno and my house in Auburn, CA. There are MANY CCS chargers on the way (A few J1772's also).
I live in the middle of a dense urban area; a typical 300-400mi day ride for me consists of probably 100-200mi on freeways, with the rest on small backroads, mostly without even gasoline stations. Range is a big issue, and the max reasonable charging stops on such a day is two short 30min ones, plus one longer ~1hr one during lunch.
Sounds like a Moto Guzzi Stelvio day. It has an 8.5 gallon fuel tank and is good for around 400 miles on a tank.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That "sidestand engaging the parking brake" feature is on BMW's scooters (gas and electric). They MAY have a patent on that idea.
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That "sidestand engaging the parking brake" feature is on BMW's scooters (gas and electric). They MAY have a patent on that idea.
Huh, could have sworn I read a review of an Energica which mentioned this, but I could be mistaken.
EDIT: Aha, found it here (https://insideevs.com/reviews/323355/energica-ego-at-bear-mountain-ride-review/), but that was a prototype Ego 5 years ago, and looks like the parking brake didn't make it into the final bike. Sorry for the confusion.
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...A battery twice the size means wait twice as long for it to charge...
-Don- Reno, NV
Don so that's technically not true...
Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.
Let's say the cells used can be charged at 2c (that's a charge rate 2x the capacity of the total pack).
A 10kWh pack would be able to charge at a rate of 20kWh (2*10), at 20kWh a 10kWh pack would be recharged in 30 minutes
A 20kWh pack would be able to charge at a rate of 40kWh (2*20), at 40kWh a 20kWh pack would also be recharged in 30 minutes.
*The above is a generalization and assumes the cells are the same and that packs do not charge slower from 0-10 and 90-100%.
Charge rates are measured in kW, not kWh.
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Don so that's technically not true...
Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.
Of course, I was talking about the same charge rate with each. IOW, only the battery is changed, not the charger. They don't always go together. Take the HD LW for an example. It has a larger battery than my SS9 but a smaller charger. So with the LW, the wait is a lot longer than my SS9 for a full charge. Also the HD won't get the same MPH of charge.
-Don- Reno, NV
For L2 charging, the size of the onboard charger determines the charge rate.
For L3 charging, the power put out by the external L3 charger determines the maximum available charge rate.
L2 charging is just AC which must be run through the vehicle's on-board charger to get the DC needed to charge the batteries.
L3 charging is DC from the plug which means the the on-board charger is bypassed and has no impact on how fast the battery can charge. The factors that affect L3 charging are the power output of the charging station, and the power handling capability of the battery manager (not the charger) and the design of the batteries. It is possible for an EV to be limited by the power circuitry on L3 charging, but it won't be limited by the charger itself.
Pretty much the weakest L3 charger will put out at least 50kW and should be able to charge a 10 or 20kWh battery in half an hour easily, but that's assuming the manufacturer didn't skimp on the power distribution circuits.
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Don so that's technically not true...
Max charge rate is based around the specified charge rate of the cells used and the capacity of the pack.
Of course, I was talking about the same charge rate with each. IOW, only the battery is changed, not the charger. They don't always go together. Take the HD LW for an example. It has a larger battery than my SS9 but a smaller charger. So with the LW, the wait is a lot longer than my SS9 for a full charge. Also the HD won't get the same MPH of charge.
-Don- Reno, NV
Looking at the CCS charge rates on the SS9 and the LW, they don't add up.
Energica claims 85% of an 11.7kWh battery at 24 kW in 20 minutes. But a 24kW charger can only deliver 8kWh in 20 minutes which is less than 70% of the battery capacity. Has anyone actually gotten 85% on an SS9 in 20 minutes?
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Except most CCS chargers are 50 kw or greater, not 24 kw.
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Except most CCS chargers are 50 kw or greater, not 24 kw.
But the Energica can only accept 25 KW max. But that can still mean a 11.7 KWH battery could be up to full in less than 30 minutes, except for the fact that the charging current must drop lower near the full end, so they spec at 85% in 20 minutes. Seems like that could be close enough to claim 20 minutes to 85%, but could be a few minutes off.
BTW, Livewire chargers (which I have used here at the Reno Harley dealer) can only do 15 KW. That means my Energica will charge faster on a HD charger than will the Livewire which can only accept 12 KW.
-Don- Reno, NV
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For L3 charging, the power put out by the external L3 charger determines the maximum available charge rate.
The HD LW has a larger battery than my SS9, but nothing near twice the size. The HD LW takes exacty twice as long to charge on the same CCS charger as my SS9. Why?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Looking at the CCS charge rates on the SS9 and the LW, they don't add up.
Energica claims 85% of an 11.7kWh battery at 24 kW in 20 minutes. But a 24kW charger can only deliver 8kWh in 20 minutes which is less than 70% of the battery capacity. Has anyone actually gotten 85% on an SS9 in 20 minutes?
The few times I've used DC charging it has taken 30 minutes to go from the low teens to 95% (my current SOC limit setting).
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The few times I've used DC charging it has taken 30 minutes to go from the low teens to 95% (my current SOC limit setting).
And that last 10 of your SOC gain perhaps took more than ten of those minutes.
I use CCS fairly often, since it's so common between here and Auburn, but I never bothered to time it. I used to charge to 100%, but I recently lowered it to 85%, so next time I will time it. However, I never get near zero SOC, I get too much range anxiety for that.
-Don- Reno, NV
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You're probably right. My faulty memory seems to recall about 20 minutes to reach 80% or so from the low teens.
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For L3 charging, the power put out by the external L3 charger determines the maximum available charge rate.
The HD LW has a larger battery than my SS9, but nothing near twice the size. The HD LW takes exacty twice as long to charge on the same CCS charger as my SS9. Why?
-Don- Reno, NV
It can be confusing, but if you look at what I wrote I tried to be consistent with the following:
The power grid has AC power. The batteries need DC to charge. Something has to perform that conversion and the device that does that is called a "charger".
For L2 charging, the L2 plug delivers AC directly from the grid (the station has some electronics to measure how much you are drawing, but they don't convert the power in any way) and your EV needs to have a "charger" on board to do the conversion to DC. Those on board chargers tend to be pretty weak in the grand scheme of things and so your vehicle's charger will be the primary thing that limits your charging speed for L2.
For L3 charging, the L3 stations have chargers built into them that do the AC->DC conversion and the L3 plug delivers DC directly to the vehicle. The vehicle's on board charger at that point is not needed and is bypassed when using an L3 charger. Thus, the relatively weak charger on the vehicle cannot be a factor that hinders your charge rate for L3/CCS.
My first comment above was trying to correct your statement that implied that the LW will charge slower because it has a smaller on board charger. That reason can't be correct, but that doesn't mean that it will charge as fast - just that you got the reason for it wrong.
Now regardless of who does the conversion from AC to DC, there are still wires involved and those wires have a maximum capacity. It's a lot easier to use bigger wires to get a really healthy power handling capbility than it is to include a higher power charger to convert more AC to DC, but that's up to the manufacturer. You also need circuitry to manage that power. The circuitry that directs the power is a lot simpler than the circuits in the charger to convert the power so typically those also can handle quite a bit more power. Finally, different battery cells may be designed to handle power at higher or lower rates and different manufacturers may be more or less conservative in how much they want to push the batteries and so self-imposed limits can get involved as well. There will be some costs involved in making use of more power from an L3 plug, but they are quite a bit lower than the costs in using more power from an L2 plug, and again - the size of the on board charger is not relevant for L3.
Now AFAIK, the LW hasn't shipped yet, so we are really comparing their marketing numbers to a mix of Energica's marketing numbers and some first hand accounts of charging them in the real world. From the marketing numbers, the numbers quoted from Harley are quite a bit more conservative. That could be because their marketing department under-reports. It could be because they didn't want to spend any more on bigger wires or the circuitry that directs the DC power. It could be because they want their batteries to last a really long time because that meets their image better. It can be a lot of things (including being wrong because we haven't verified it yet), but one thing we know is that it will have nothing to do with the size of the charger they built into the bike - because that charger won't be involved in L3/CCS charging. Time will tell if they are as comparatively slow as their marketing numbers suggest, but we can see that the Energica numbers on their web site are just impossible unless one or more of them is wrong so clearly marketing numbers are worth their weight in BS.
You also made a comment about battery sizes working against you and, generally, that is incorrect as well. A larger battery can help take in power faster, but it can never hurt how much charge you can accept. It might mean your percentage gauge goes up more slowly, but that is a subjective concern and has no real world impact. The MPH speed of the charge can only be the same or higher with a bigger battery, never lower. Actually, there is one way it can hurt and that is due to weighing more and making the value of the power you are taking in less because the vehicle is less efficient, but that effect is pretty minor compared to the ability to ingest power faster if the rest of the circuitry is up to snuff.
Teslas are a good example of the effect of battery size on charging. Within a model line the larger batteries will charge at generally the same MPH on L2 charging because they are all limited by the on-board charger. The only variation there is that the bigger battery is heavier and so the MPH has a minor impact. On a supercharger, though, the larger battery will tend to charge at a much higher MPH because they are limited by how fast the batteries can take charge and the more they have, the faster they can push it in. If 200 cells can accept 200X in power, then 400 cells can accept 400X, etc.
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I well understand the on-board charger is not used for CCS DC charging.
The LW charges slower ether way. On L2, it is easy to understand as the LW has no L2 charging. It cannot charge at 3KW as its charger is like the older Zeros, the current drops down as the voltage is increased. So charging on 240 VAC is no faster than on 120 VAC. It is faster on the SS9 as the current doesn't decrease as the voltage increases.
But can you explain the big difference in L3 charging times between the SS9 and LW? I have a hard time buying it's just the difference in a claim, when the time is 40 minutes instead of 20, which is twice as much time. But the LW battery is a little larger, which explains some of it. Or do you believe it will be the exact same amount of miles gained on either for the exact same time on CCS?
One other possible limitation is the HD CCS chargers can only do 15 KW max. But I doubt their 40 minute spec is only for their own chargers. I think I read the LW charges on CCS at 12 KW, while the SS9 can accept 25 KW. Could it be software that limits the LW CCS charging? I think that could be it.
Perhaps means the battery will last longer on the LW, but comes with the price of slower DC charging.
BTW, I lived in 94080 for many years, just below San Bruno Mountain.
-Don- Reno, NV
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And I spent 35 years working for the South San Francisco (94080) Engineering Department. I grew up in the city after we moved from SF to SSF in 1951. It was a different town back then, with lots of farmland to hike through. The city was run by Italians and was populated by mostly blue-collar workers who worked in the meat packing, steel mill and warehouse industries. Quite a change from the place it is today.
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And I spent 35 years working for the South San Francisco (94080) Engineering Department. I grew up in the city after we moved from SF to SSF in 1951. It was a different town back then, with lots of farmland to hike through. The city was run by Italians and was populated by mostly blue-collar workers who worked in the meat packing, steel mill and warehouse industries. Quite a change from the place it is today.
When I was a young kid, there as still some farmland left in Daly City, where I then lived. Now all houses, of course. Now a lot more people with a lot less land to feed us with.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I well understand the on-board charger is not used for CCS DC charging.
The LW charges slower ether way. On L2, it is easy to understand as the LW has no L2 charging. It cannot charge at 3KW as its charger is like the older Zeros, the current drops down as the voltage is increased. So charging on 240 VAC is no faster than on 120 VAC. It is faster on the SS9 as the current doesn't decrease as the voltage increases.
But can you explain the big difference in L3 charging times between the SS9 and LW? I have a hard time buying it's just the difference in a claim, when the time is 40 minutes instead of 20, which is twice as much time. But the LW battery is a little larger, which explains some of it. Or do you believe it will be the exact same amount of miles gained on either for the exact same time on CCS?
One other possible limitation is the HD CCS chargers can only do 15 KW max. But I doubt their 40 minute spec is only for their own chargers. I think I read the LW charges on CCS at 12 KW, while the SS9 can accept 25 KW. Could it be software that limits the LW CCS charging? I think that could be it.
Perhaps means the battery will last longer on the LW, but comes with the price of slower DC charging.
BTW, I lived in 94080 for many years, just below San Bruno Mountain.
-Don- Reno, NV
It has something to do with the charge rate that the batteries can handle ie 1c, 2c etc etc. The Zero and L/W can only charge and discharge at 1c while the energica can charge at 2c or 3c. That why the LW L3 charger is slower.
Someone else can explain it better than me so I won't even try.
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It has something to do with the charge rate that the batteries can handle ie c-1, c-2, c-3 etc. The Zero and L/W can only charge at c-1, while the energica can charge at c-2 or c-3. That why the LW L3 charger is slowere.
Someone else can explain it better than me so I won't even try.
c-1? I'm not familiar with that term.
-Crissa
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It has something to do with the charge rate that the batteries can handle ie c-1, c-2, c-3 etc. The Zero and L/W can only charge at c-1, while the energica can charge at c-2 or c-3. That why the LW L3 charger is slowere.
Someone else can explain it better than me so I won't even try.
c-1? I'm not familiar with that term.
-Crissa
Sorry. I meant 1c. It's called the c rating of batteries. Energica uses Lipo batteries as opposed to LITHIUM ion that zero and livewire use.
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It's called the c rating of batteries.
Oh! Okay. The discharge/charge rating. I didn't know there was a nomenclature for that. Yeah, battery configuration can change that wildly. The Zero batteries can accept a pretty massive charge from the regenerative, so they're mostly capped by the hardware than the batteries, but it is a good point.
You can trade reliability or cost for not just capacity but other factors as well, like performance in different temperature ranges. No two battery packs are really the same, small tweaks often change these performance characteristics.
The Energica already has a higher voltage battery, which would just give it more headroom in the formula. (Which is why 12v systems prevailed over 6v systems decades ago.)
-Crissa
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Energica takes 20-30 min to charge at a L3 station with the ability to deliver ~80 amps or more. Level 3 chargers are no different than onboard chargers with the single exception that they are in a box on the ground rather than on the bike. This means L3 stations are limited by amps as well. For example, the 50kW EVGo stations are 100 amp stations. This is between 25 and 35 kW (not 50kW) for energica voltage. These same stations will be between 13 and 17kW on a harly. Don't ask how I know.
For the current Energica bikes, this will give between 67 miles of range and 98 miles of range with the way I ride on a full pack, or between 55 and 75 miles range the way I ride on an 80% charge.
These are real-world numbers calculated from LOTS actual recoded data and experience.
Have fun.
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It has something to do with the charge rate that the batteries can handle ie 1c, 2c etc etc. The Zero and L/W can only charge and discharge at 1c while the energica can charge at 2c or 3c. That why the LW L3 charger is slower. Someone else can explain it better than me so I won't even try.
Which gets back to my original claim. The HD charger can only charge ANY vehicle at 15KW on CCS. The HD battery can only accept 12KW of that 15KW. My SS9 can accept the entire 15 KW, and if my battery was twice the size, I will still only be able to charge at 15KW from the HD CCS chargers. That means, I wait twice as long half as many times for a full charge. The time to charge is about the same either way.
On other CCS chargers, of higher capacity for me to get faster charging on a larger battery, the charge current will have to be more than the 25 KW max that I now have with my SS9.
-Don- Reno, NV
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No, that's not quite how it works.
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I am not sure, but I think 1C is the current capacity of the battery's discharge rate. It is possible to charge some batteries above 1C. 2C would be charging at twice the battery's current max discharge rate. IOW, 2C is charging it twice as fast as it maximum current output rating.
And I think with Zeros, 1C comes out to about the same as the KWH capacity of the battery. IOW, a 14.4 KWH battery being charged at 14.4 KW, or very close to that, will be around 1C.
Do I have that correct? If not, I hope somebody here can correct me. I am not very familiar with the 1C term, so I am doing some guessing.
-Don- Reno, NV
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No, that's not quite how it works.
That's not how what works? Please explain.
-Don- Reno, NV
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1C means you either fully charge or discharge the battery in 60 minutes.
2C means you either fully charge or discharge the battery in 60/2=30 minutes.
3C means you either fully charge or discharge the battery in 60/3=20 minutes.
4C means you either fully charge or discharge the battery in 60/4=15 minutes.
etc.
Zero batteries are warrantied for 1C charge and up to 10C discharge rate as I understand it. Of course the C rating of the battery is wholly dependent on amps. Amps are the real power of the battery. The different packs may operate at different voltages, but they only accept a certain number of amps. This means all the batteries between manufactures are quite different, and the goal of each charging station is to provide amps to the batteries at whatever voltage the vehicles use. Energica bikes operate around 280-320V. The bikes are fine with accepting around 80+ amps at that voltage range. 80x280=2380W=23kW at completely dead. As the voltage rises, and the amps delivered remain the same, more kW are delivered. After all, 80x320=25600W=25.6kW.
Energica states that their nominal (usable) pack size is 11.7kWh or 11700Wh. If we take the median voltage, ~300, then we get 11700kWh/300V=~39Ah. The fact that it's dumping in upwards of 80 amps on a ~39 amp hour pack is fucking phenomenal. That's over 2C.
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Now, back to the LiveWire. I was able to ask their engineers some questions via proxy (Troy Siahaan of motorcycle.com) and they confirmed a 60Ah battery on that bike. They advertise a 1C charge, aka 0-80% in 40 minutes and 0-100% in ~ 1 hour. This makes the math easy. They advertise a 13.7kWh nominal pack. 13700/60 = a nominal voltage of 228. Of course, none of these bikes exist in the wild yet so the true numbers aren't known. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt that their packs are a little better and assume they run around 250V. 250vx60a=15000W. If they don't go beyond 1C they'll never request more than 60 Amps.
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1C means you either fully charge or discharge the battery in 60 minutes.
2C means you either fully charge or discharge the battery in 60/2=30 minutes.
3C means you either fully charge or discharge the battery in 60/3=20 minutes.
4C means you either fully charge or discharge the battery in 60/4=15 minutes.
etc.
Zero batteries are warrantied for 1C charge and up to 10C discharge rate as I understand it. Of course the C rating of the battery is wholly dependent on amps. Amps are the real power of the battery. The different packs may operate at different voltages, but they only accept a certain number of amps. This means all the batteries between manufactures are quite different, and the goal of each charging station is to provide amps to the batteries at whatever voltage the vehicles use. Energica bikes operate around 280-320V. The bikes are fine with accepting around 80+ amps at that voltage range. 80x280=2380W=23kW at completely dead. As the voltage rises, and the amps delivered remain the same, more kW are delivered. After all, 80x320=25600W=25.6kW.
Energica states that their nominal (usable) pack size is 11.7kWh or 11700Wh. If we take the median voltage, ~300, then we get 11700kWh/300V=~39Ah. The fact that it's dumping in upwards of 80 amps on a ~39 amp hour pack is fucking phenomenal. That's over 2C.
Thanks for that info. One more question. How long will it take to charge a 11.7 KWH battery with an average charge power of exactly 11.7 KW? Will it be an hour or more than an hour? And if more than hour, by about how much?
-Don- Reno, NV
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The question is flawed. You charge by delivering amps. The voltage rises from low to high. *IF* you were to deliver exactly 11.7kW to the battery from empty to full it would mean you are delivering MORE amps during the empty stages and FEWER amps during the fuller stages. REMEMBER: Watts = Volts x Amps
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The question is flawed. You charge by delivering amps. The voltage rises from low to high. *IF* you were to deliver exactly 11.7kW to the battery from empty to full it would mean you are delivering MORE amps during the empty stages and FEWER amps during the fuller stages. REMEMBER: Watts = Volts x Amps
That's why I used the word "average". I know it will not be steady at all, but power is power and I don't see why the question is flawed.
In fact, the CCS chargers even show us how much power we are charging at--and in watts. And so does the bike. That's how I knew the HD charger here in Reno is set to 15KW max. Both the CCS charger as well as my SS9 displayed the 15 KW until it got near the end when it had to lower.
-Don- Reno, NV
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1 hour
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It would be a fair amount more than an hour -- depends on a bunch of things, but 1-1/2 hours might not be a bad guess.
First, there's charging inefficiency. The fact that the batteries heat up means every joule of energy put into the battery does NOT result in a joule of energy in the battery -- some of it is lost to heat (you can use kWh for your energy units if you wish). Typical batteries only store about 80% of the charging energy put into them.
That's assuming you're DC charging, so the charger power loss is off the bike. If the charger is on the bike (level 1 or 2 charging), there's another loss term due to the charger inefficiency.
One more factor is the end-stage charging current taper. Below some SoC value, say 20%, and above some other value, say 85%, the charging current MUST taper down or you'll irreparably damage the battery. You can only charge a "1C" battery at the 1C rate between these values. That stretches out the charging time if you start very low or end very high.
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It would be a fair amount more than an hour -- depends on a bunch of things, but 1-1/2 hours might not be a bad guess.
First, there's charging inefficiency. The fact that the batteries heat up means every joule of energy put into the battery does NOT result in a joule of energy in the battery --
That is exactly what I assumed. If it took one hour to charge a one KWH battery, there is no way for the battery to get hot, as that would be 100% efficient. The heat proves there is power waste. How much in charge time that makes, I have no idea. But I would expect it to be better than your 1.5 hours, but I really do not know. 1.5 hours means 50% is wasted in heat, and I doubt it is that inefficient. But perhaps it could be when we are at 2C and above as that must create a lot of heat while it is charging. IOW, I assume that the efficiency decreases as the charge rate is increased.
The SS9 battery has less warranty time than other electric bikes. It charges a lot faster (~25 KW), which means it gets a lot hotter. I assume that is why the warranty is less.
-Don- Reno, NV