ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Lightning => Topic started by: Kovol2 on October 27, 2019, 11:33:27 PM
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Has only one person received their bike? News seem really slow and nobody has yet to even review it.
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According to the Lightning Facebook page only one Strike has been delivered and that was on 8 September. Must be a very slow assembly line!!
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Like Harley’s.
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Except at least one LiveWire was delivered last week and another person is expecting his tomorrow. And people have publicly ridden and discussed their LiveWire experience.
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Where, Who?
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Where, Who?
Here's an enthusiastic Livewire test ride review in Lacey, WA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKQKryRnxBM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKQKryRnxBM)
I've interviewed local motorcyclists myself who've ridden Livewire demo bikes at dealers. The reviews are mixed, and I think HD dealers could tune the Livewire demos to be more appealing, but overall it's making a good impression (and then the price gates who actually buys really strongly).
I don't like that the Livewire went out to the Long Way Up crew before customers, and that they customized the bikes beyond their capabilities to fake being off-road bikes, but corporate-funded celebrity TV shows are all manner of fake already.
The Livewire is out there, mainly because HD can burn money like nobody's business. It's not elusive like a Lightning customer, whom I've never met in the few years I've lived in the SF Bay Area.
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Where, Who?
This guy in Washington State (https://old.reddit.com/r/MotorcyclePorn/comments/dnnrqs/traded_in_the_sporty_for_this/?st=k2awlen1&sh=03333585)
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Yah, I have test ridden a couple. But, I have seen one customer bike. Right Matt?
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Yah, I have test ridden a couple. But, I have seen one customer bike. Right Matt?
You've test ridden a couple of Lightning Strikes?
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Livewires
Mine coming around Christmas.
I donot ever expect to ever see a lightning strikes.
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Livewires
Mine coming around Christmas.
I donot ever expect to ever see a lightning strikes.
;D
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Gotta love that pic of all the blue Strikes being assembled at the so-called "factory".
Wonder what happened to them..
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For what it's worth, I texted the CEO back in August and he hasn't replied to me (he usually replied within a day or 2). My other contact there was someone who would reply to emails within 2 hours, sometimes within 20 minutes) and I haven't heard back from him in 9 days.
The lack of updates and replies is concerning, not just that we're left in the dark about the production, but it's a bad sign for what customer service might be like in the future if your bike needed something.
They still have my deposit though, so I'm going to wait and hope for the best.
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I hope it was not the big deposit.
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Nah, just the $500. It was still on the list for a Carbon, though. It's a long story.
But that makes me wonder.. if this whole delay was because they couldn't get the 20kWh batteries imported, and the "first" Carbon Strike was sold with a 10kWh battery.. did they ever have the 20kWh pack? How would they know the range and the weight of one if it never existed? And if it did exist, why wasn't it sold in the first Carbon Strike?
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Nah, just the $500. It was still on the list for a Carbon, though. It's a long story.
But that makes me wonder.. if this whole delay was because they couldn't get the 20kWh batteries imported, and the "first" Carbon Strike was sold with a 10kWh battery.. did they ever have the 20kWh pack? How would they know the range and the weight of one if it never existed? And if it did exist, why wasn't it sold in the first Carbon Strike?
Computer modeling
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Nah, just the $500. It was still on the list for a Carbon, though. It's a long story.
But that makes me wonder.. if this whole delay was because they couldn't get the 20kWh batteries imported, and the "first" Carbon Strike was sold with a 10kWh battery.. did they ever have the 20kWh pack? How would they know the range and the weight of one if it never existed? And if it did exist, why wasn't it sold in the first Carbon Strike?
Answer: Just re-read the threads in this subforum. None of the specs they published in the PR announcement March made sense (weight, weight/cost difference between models etc.) , and the slight changes they published on their website didn't improve matters (if anything, made it worse since they're explicitly promising very expensive components). Neither does talk about a Chinese factory for high-end, low-volume sportbikes, when their assembly facility is in the US.
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Seems to me like Energica already beat Ligthning with their next gen 20kwh battery announcement. IF pricing is the same, then why would anyone buy a Lightning?
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Seems to me like Energica already beat Ligthning with their next gen 20kwh battery announcement. IF pricing is the same, then why would anyone buy a Lightning?
Agreed.... Energica seems to be seriously in the business.... Lightning not so much....
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If at all!
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Today I was laughed at for not believing that Lightning is delivering anything. Quite frankly there's been a fair amount of drama surrounding this company. I didn't even go on a crusade when I witnessed Richard personally attack my business partner, which we caught on video, this July. I've since mentioned to media publications that Lightning isn't delivering things like they claim. As a result, Richard EMAILED MY FATHER TO TRY AND SILENCE ME. Never tried to reach out to me. I was incensed by this, but decided to not drag my family into the situation.
But you know what? FUCK YOU, Richard Hatfield. I will NOT be bullied or intimidated. You don't want me to say you're incapable of delivering production bikes? Then deliver production bikes. All anyone has wanted this entire time is a cool electric motorcycle. What you've done, as far as I can tell, is take money and deliver false promises. If you don't like that, talk to me. You don't fucking scare me.
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MVetter, That is REALLY F'd up. If Lightning is really delivering anything they are keeping it a closely guarded secret. I have often wondered how does Lightning even stay in business? Obviously selling electric motorcycles isn't paying the bills. Are they big enough to be awarded CARB credits in California and therefore sell them to other companies? Are CARB credits a big money item that could keep a small business in business?
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MVetter, That is REALLY F'd up. If Lightning is really delivering anything they are keeping it a closely guarded secret. I have often wondered how does Lightning even stay in business? Obviously selling electric motorcycles isn't paying the bills. Are they big enough to be awarded CARB credits in California and therefore sell them to other companies? Are CARB credits a big money item that could keep a small business in business?
My Energica dealer told me a few years ago that the company made enough profit off of CA carbon credits to be able to reduce the bike's MSRP substantially. The prices suddenly dropped about $10K from 2016 to 2017, if I recall correctly. ???
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Out of curiosity, I went to their website. Apparently you can PURCHASE an LS-218, but you can only RESERVE a Strike Carbon edition. Interestingly enough, there is no mention at all of the standard Strike. I thought they were supposed to be selling those things this summer?
It really does stink of a massive scam right now. They might as well offer a free "Skully Helmet" to everyone who reserves a Strike Carbon at this point.
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Skully actually is delivering, so, even that comparison doesn't work anymore. I don't know that Skully will actually finish into a stable company, but at least there is evidence of delivering this summer.
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Let's see if Lightning can beat 3D Realms' record of 14 years between a product announcement and actual delivery date (Duke Nukem Forever)...
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MVetter, That is REALLY F'd up. If Lightning is really delivering anything they are keeping it a closely guarded secret. I have often wondered how does Lightning even stay in business? Obviously selling electric motorcycles isn't paying the bills. Are they big enough to be awarded CARB credits in California and therefore sell them to other companies? Are CARB credits a big money item that could keep a small business in business?
I think you can only get CARB credits if you sell something.
I have no idea how they are staying afloat, and I'm not saying they are using their factory as a meth lab either.
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Today I was laughed at for not believing that Lightning is delivering anything. Quite frankly there's been a fair amount of drama surrounding this company. I didn't even go on a crusade when I witnessed Richard personally attack my business partner, which we caught on video, this July. I've since mentioned to media publications that Lightning isn't delivering things like they claim. As a result, Richard EMAILED MY FATHER TO TRY AND SILENCE ME. Never tried to reach out to me. I was incensed by this, but decided to not drag my family into the situation.
But you know what? FUCK YOU, Richard Hatfield. I will NOT be bullied or intimidated. You don't want me to say you're incapable of delivering production bikes? Then deliver production bikes. All anyone has wanted this entire time is a cool electric motorcycle. What you've done, as far as I can tell, is take money and deliver false promises. If you don't like that, talk to me. You don't fucking scare me.
What's the backstory to this?
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It's hard to really know what's going on there. The fact that they did build prototype bikes that kicked ass to the extent of winning the Pike's Peak hillclimb outright vouches very strongly for the company's credibility and seriousness about the endeavor....but that's really all they got so far -- a few outstanding prototypes.
Great minds, most recently notably Elon Musk, have learned the hard way that building kickass prototypes and delivering vehicles on a production basis are VERY different things. Tesla's still struggling with that last step. I'd argue that the Strike isn't heading for that level of production now, maybe not ever, so they're realistically just stepping up to a "boutique", small-scale operation, which should be less of a quantum leap. But they could be just thoroughly swamped and trying to get their heads above water even with that challenge.
Though it also wouldn't be the first company to lure in a bunch of VC money, pay themselves ridiculous salaries for a few years, and retire when the project crashes and the money runs out.
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Though it also wouldn't be the first company to lure in a bunch of VC money, pay themselves ridiculous salaries for a few years, and retire when the project crashes and the money runs out.
When a company raises venture capital, they have to file a disclosure with the SEC.
So, it appears that money is coming from somewhere else.
That said, how much money do you need if you're not actually building anything? Making a few prototypes is just a fancy science project.
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I've generally heard from multiple sources that Lightning has ongoing revenue. I don't know any details.
It's probable that this manufacturing venture is not that risky for them, except obviously in terms of public credibility.
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I've generally heard from multiple sources that Lightning has ongoing revenue. I don't know any details.
It's probable that this manufacturing venture is not that risky for them, except obviously in terms of public credibility.
Assuming they are indeed not running a massive meth lab operation in the factory, where could they possibly have revenue from?
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It has been suggested about multiple small EV vendors that they have consulting contracts with larger companies. This could vary widely, but the hearsay is consistent across many sources, so I tend to treat the idea as corroborated.
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It has been suggested about multiple small EV vendors that they have consulting contracts with larger companies. This could vary widely, but the hearsay is consistent across many sources, so I tend to treat the idea as corroborated.
That makes sense. They must be helping Tesla since they have so much experience in mass manufacturing of EVs...
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What's the backstory to this?
My dad is a known person in the industry, and it wouldn't be the first time someone has tried to tell on me via proxy. All I did was point out in the comments of an engineering.com article the facts of the white Strike that left the factory and all of its missing/incomplete components. The next day the comment had been removed, and I didn't really think anything of it. Then Richard emailed my dad and made up a bunch of shit. Dad forwarded it to me, thoroughly confused.
So I have the email.
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That's insane. Looks like Richard has lots of spare time on his hands, business must be going great!
What did the email say?
Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk
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I’m not ready to post it publicly yet, but will if necessary. It was mostly that I was making false statements and he doesn’t understand why I have an agenda to hurt his company blah blah blah
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Well, when Tesla was setting up they were selling motors to Ford and others.
It's better to build something and sell something when you can.
But actually delivering a production product is hard. Tesla's been successful but it hasn't been easy. Other companies are still having trouble building factories even if they're surviving on VC.
-Crissa
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Though it also wouldn't be the first company to lure in a bunch of VC money, pay themselves ridiculous salaries for a few years, and retire when the project crashes and the money runs out.
When a company raises venture capital, they have to file a disclosure with the SEC.
So, it appears that money is coming from somewhere else.
That said, how much money do you need if you're not actually building anything? Making a few prototypes is just a fancy science project.
Lightning reportedly has 20-30 employees (17 are listed on LinkedIn, which is consistent).
In Northern California, the salary costs alone are a couple of million $ per year, and they've been doing it for several years now.
It adds up (company was founded in 2005), and someone's paying for it.
Standard banks don't give loans to startups with pretty solid revenue paths.
Investment banks do, but they don't hide their investments. Neither do VCs.
I have looked, and haven't found an investor list for Lightning.
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It has been suggested about multiple small EV vendors that they have consulting contracts with larger companies. This could vary widely, but the hearsay is consistent across many sources, so I tend to treat the idea as corroborated.
Tesla did this (more components & drivetrain systems than consulting, for Mercedes & Toyota, but they did both), as did Rimac.
But in both cases it was pretty clear who needed the consulting and why it was worth their while to pay for it;
That's not very clear in Lightning's case.
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It's hard to really know what's going on there. The fact that they did build prototype bikes that kicked ass to the extent of winning the Pike's Peak hillclimb outright vouches very strongly for the company's credibility and seriousness about the endeavor....but that's really all they got so far -- a few outstanding prototypes.
It says nada about commercialization & production -- or even doing prototype engineering well, if it was a one-shot effort which wasn't repeated. I haven't heard about them involved in other BEV motorcycle racing efforts, and there are more & more of these globally. They keep talking about that single hillclimb and the (fraudulent since it wasn't a production bike) and single land speed record.
Since the middle ages there have always been many thousands of inventors & tinkerers who tried to make a better plow / steam engine / hearing aid, but noone's ever heard of the vast majority of them. Only a very few also managed to popularize and/or commercialize their work (sometimes via a non-technical partner).
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Lightning is also GlassDoor. Some very interesting comments on what it is like to work for Richard. I think it also explains a lot of issues they are having. Here is the link to the original post on adrider: https://advrider.com/f/threads/lightning-strike.1362769/page-5#post-37928827
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmkBRvLEsZo&feature=youtu.be
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmkBRvLEsZo&feature=youtu.be
minute 2:18 says no one on this forum has a Lightning bike. Prettt sure there is at least one who posted relatively lately. Not a stock production bike but enough to think this guy likes making videos more than being totally right.
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There's the guy with the one-off 700 volt drag strip bike. Definitely not production.
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There's the guy with the one-off 700 volt drag strip bike. Definitely not production.
That was user Jayski here (https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9375.msg82219#msg82219) and the following posts.
He's apparently happy with his bike, but as you said, it ain't no production bike.
And that's still the only report I've seen anywhere, anytime, with a first-hand report from an owner of any Lightning bike.
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I think I saw one on Hwy 9 at the summit once in a group of sport-bike riders, but they didn't talk outside their group. I also couldn't hear whose motor was whose, since they traveled in a cluster and mostly kicked alot of rocks around.
But that's hardly evidence of sales.
VCs do not have to be transparent until they open up investment to the public. So we don't have access to the internals of just any non-publicly-listed company.
-Crissa
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VCs do not have to be transparent until they open up investment to the public. So we don't have access to the internals of just any non-publicly-listed company.
True, but I used to work at a VC, as well as consulting to several others, and was also in the management team of several VC- and angel-funded startups.
I have never encountered a VC hiding any investment they made(*). On the contrary, they're very prominently headlined, both by the VC so that its investors know it's actually investing the money it has and putting it to work, as well as by the recipient companies to gain respectability in the eyes of customers, employees, and additional investors -- none of them is likely to take a company seriously if it's not clear it has enough money to keep the lights on. There's simply no motivation to keep investments secret.
(*)The only exception is startups in full-stealth mode, but Lightning isn't.
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VCs do not have to be transparent until they open up investment to the public. So we don't have access to the internals of just any non-publicly-listed company.
-Crissa
Yes and no.
I'm also in the business (VC) and the company receiving the investment would have to file Form D with the SEC.
It's a legal requirement to file Form D if you're a private company issuing securities or raising capital.
I just took a look at my database, Lightning did file a Form D once, back in 2015, when they raised $50K through debt financing, basically meaning they have to repay the creditor at some point, with the intention to raise a total of $2M.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1646406/000164640615000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml
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VCs do not have to be transparent until they open up investment to the public. So we don't have access to the internals of just any non-publicly-listed company.
-Crissa
Yes and no.
I'm also in the business (VC) and the company receiving the investment would have to file Form D with the SEC.
It's a legal requirement to file Form D if you're a private company issuing securities or raising capital.
I just took a look at my database, Lightning did file a Form D once, back in 2015, when they raised $50K through debt financing, basically meaning they have to repay the creditor at some point, with the intention to raise a total of $2M.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1646406/000164640615000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml
What can a motorcycle manufacturing company do with only $2 million? And $50K won't even pay for the Christmas party. ::)
If I had to take a complete guess, I would bet that Richard gets his income from being some sort of consultant and building motorcycles is just a hobby when he has nothing better to do. ???
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VCs do not have to be transparent until they open up investment to the public. So we don't have access to the internals of just any non-publicly-listed company.
-Crissa
Yes and no.
I'm also in the business (VC) and the company receiving the investment would have to file Form D with the SEC.
It's a legal requirement to file Form D if you're a private company issuing securities or raising capital.
I just took a look at my database, Lightning did file a Form D once, back in 2015, when they raised $50K through debt financing, basically meaning they have to repay the creditor at some point, with the intention to raise a total of $2M.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1646406/000164640615000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml
What can a motorcycle manufacturing company do with only $2 million? And $50K won't even pay for the Christmas party. ::)
If I had to take a complete guess, I would bet that Richard gets his income from being some sort of consultant and building motorcycles is just a hobby when he has nothing better to do. ???
Yeah, it must be the best-kept secret in the industry.
Why announce serial bike production in the first place then? And take $10K deposits, too?
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VCs do not have to be transparent until they open up investment to the public. So we don't have access to the internals of just any non-publicly-listed company.
-Crissa
Yes and no.
I'm also in the business (VC) and the company receiving the investment would have to file Form D with the SEC.
It's a legal requirement to file Form D if you're a private company issuing securities or raising capital.
I just took a look at my database, Lightning did file a Form D once, back in 2015, when they raised $50K through debt financing, basically meaning they have to repay the creditor at some point, with the intention to raise a total of $2M.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1646406/000164640615000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml
What can a motorcycle manufacturing company do with only $2 million? And $50K won't even pay for the Christmas party. ::)
If I had to take a complete guess, I would bet that Richard gets his income from being some sort of consultant and building motorcycles is just a hobby when he has nothing better to do. ???
Yeah, it must be the best-kept secret in the industry.
Why announce serial bike production in the first place then? And take $10K deposits, too?
I wonder if he is a U.S. front for a Chinese electric motorcycle company that had plans to sell their bikes here before they got hit with import tariffs? (Just throwing thoughts at the dart board to see if anything sticks. ;) )
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If they had a foreign investor, that should be registered.
But not all loans have to be disclosed until they're a public company.
Which makes this an opaque mess.
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Here's a little backstory about the CEO, in response to all the controversy. There's a video at the end regarding credibility that cites this forum.
https://longtailpipe.com/2019/11/13/scam-alert-tossed-at-lightning-motorcycles/ (https://longtailpipe.com/2019/11/13/scam-alert-tossed-at-lightning-motorcycles/)
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That's just so sad. This field badly needs serious players, not play-uhs.
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The mention of Todd Kolin in the article referenced above made me queasy. He was the head of Electric Motorsport, based in Oakland, and was the person that I dealt with after I bought my 2009 GPR-S, which lasted 300 miles before the BMS caught on fire and the "custom" 2010 GPR-S that traveled 1300 miles before the batteries started going south. The retail dealer, The Electric Green Store, that was selling those bikes in Redwood City went under that same year. I still have a bunch of emails in my archives between myself and Todd regarding those two bikes. Birds of a feather to my mind.
All I can say is I am really thankful that I discovered Zero. That changed my entire outlook regarding the electric motorcycle industry. :)
I have posted this photo before, but here is a picture of Lightning's first prototype consumer electric motorcycle taken in 2014 that was going to be sold by them to the general public. Anyone ever see one of these on the road? ::)
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https://electrek.co/2019/12/19/lightning-strike-electric-motorcycle-deliveries-secret-project/
Article on Electrek. Lightning claiming to have delivered Strike Carbon editions -slightly delayed- in September instead of July. Also their website seems to be updated. Man, these specs are to good to be true: the weight, the price, Ohlins, the CCS charge time. No rear ABS visible though ;).